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Daver
01-11-2003, 11:11 AM
Peter Gammons picks the Sox as one of the teams that could be a surprise for 2003.

The White Sox: It will all come down to starting pitching, and while GM Ken Williams has been strapped by payroll issues -- he nearly had Russ Ortiz in a trade, then barely lost out on signing Omar Daal -- the makings behind Mark Buehrle are there, as evidenced by the fact that their starters' ERA after the All-Star break fell to 4.25 from 4.76.


"What I liked was that Jon Garland and Dan Wright got better in the second half and they pitched well against contending teams on the road," says Williams. They will look at Jon Rauch, Rocky Biddle and rookie Josh Stewart (11-7 at Double-A) as Williams keeps trying to find experience.


The bullpen (Billy Koch, Antonio Osuna, Kelly Wunsch, Damaso Marte, Gary Glover) is deep and versatile. They have the energetic leadersip of Jose Valentin, who is a special person and they have established producers like Magglio Ordonez and Paul Konerko. They also expect Frank Thomas to come back strong and they have young players like Joe Crede, Willie Harris, Miguel Olivo, Josh Paul and Aaron Rowand they hope will develop.


The full article is here. (http://espn.go.com/gammons/s/2003/0110/1490443.html)

SouthSideHitman
01-11-2003, 11:31 AM
Well the first thing that struck me is that if the Sox are doomed the cubs are even more screwed cause they got the banner headline.

But seriously, if the Sox don't start dissing the Twinkies (ignore Billy Koch) and hyping themselves too much and just get down to business like it seems Frank and everyone in winter ball (with the exception of Leifer) has, then they should be good. The Twins are still strong, and do have the highest payroll in the division, but they limped into the playoffs last year and showed that they weren't supermen at Comiskey last September. If the
Sox pick up where they left off last year, when they showed they could beat the leagues best teams and the young starters could be somewhat consitent (thank you Mr. Cooper) then it looks to at least be a race until the second half if not more.

Lip Man 1
01-11-2003, 12:21 PM
I would have felt more secure if a GM OTHER then Williams made those comments about the pitching staff.

I mean what the hell do you think he's going to say? That they suck or are terribly inconsistent?

It still comes down to the Sox HOPING the 'can't miss kids" come through.

Sorry, that's not good enough for me. I'm tired of "hoping"... why can't I and other Sox fans KNOW the team is going to be good.

(and I just LOVED the part where Gammons mentioned the payroll restrictions! Great owner eh?)

Lip

soxnut
01-11-2003, 12:43 PM
This is sports, there are no guarantees.... :(: Sox fans have got to have a little more hope than they do. I go to games anyway, but I'm not cub fan like. But from the posts I see here all the time, alot of you do represent the "fair weather fans" I can't wait to go to some games this year, I don't care if the whole starting lineup is on the disabled list, I'll still go to at least 3-5 games. It's always an enjoyable time. Whetheer you like the ownership or not, the players deserve more support than what they get.
Say what you want about limited payroll, but other teams who have had worse records than the Sox have had better attendance, stop being a bunch of babies.

voodoochile
01-11-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
This is sports, there are no guarantees.... :(: Sox fans have got to have a little more hope than they do. I go to games anyway, but I'm not cub fan like. But from the posts I see here all the time, alot of you do represent the "fair weather fans" I can't wait to go to some games this year, I don't care if the whole starting lineup is on the disabled list, I'll still go to at least 3-5 games. It's always an enjoyable time. Whetheer you like the ownership or not, the players deserve more support than what they get.
Say what you want about limited payroll, but other teams who have had worse records than the Sox have had better attendance, stop being a bunch of babies.

What's with all the attacks against the other posters recently. Are you actually suggesting that the people who spend regular time on this site and post on the Sox aren't true Sox fans because they are realists? I go to at least 7 games a season - I buy the 7 game pack and probably go to a couple more on a whim. If the Sox are on a serious role, I'll go to 20+.

As to management, I don't want a guarantee, but an honest effort would be nice...

RedPinStripes
01-11-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
This is sports, there are no guarantees.... :(: Sox fans have got to have a little more hope than they do. I go to games anyway, but I'm not cub fan like. But from the posts I see here all the time, alot of you do represent the "fair weather fans" I can't wait to go to some games this year, I don't care if the whole starting lineup is on the disabled list, I'll still go to at least 3-5 games. It's always an enjoyable time. Whetheer you like the ownership or not, the players deserve more support than what they get.
Say what you want about limited payroll, but other teams who have had worse records than the Sox have had better attendance, stop being a bunch of babies.

86 years without a ws winner dude. WE HAVE A RIGHT TO BITCH!

As much bitching as i do here, i do more at the park. And i'm sure the majority of posters here go to their share of games every year eventhough the Sox suck.

WhiteSoxWinner
01-11-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
This is sports, there are no guarantees.... :(:

No kidding. But put the Yankees in a seven games series with any other team in the league, and the Yankees have a better chance. I am not saying they are unbeatable, but more often than not, they will win a seven game series.

Originally posted by soxnut
Sox fans have got to have a little more hope than they do. I go to games anyway, but I'm not cub fan like. But from the posts I see here all the time, alot of you do represent the "fair weather fans" I can't wait to go to some games this year, I don't care if the whole starting lineup is on the disabled list, I'll still go to at least 3-5 games. It's always an enjoyable time. Whetheer you like the ownership or not, the players deserve more support than what they get.

I think a lot of the people on this board are the people going to the games. The people who are not on this board, the non-diehard Sox fan, are those who need to come out. You are ripping on the wrong people. I know I get to 15 to 20 games a season; I split a season ticket package with friends.

soxnut
01-11-2003, 01:10 PM
Hi voodoochile, I know you've got your 7 game plan thing going and that's cool. I guess that my impression is that people who are realisits are negative people.. I might be wrong. I am a positive person and I don't see as many looking at the bright side of things here as I would like. So it gets me frustrated. I like to come here and get information and not see as much complaining, but I guess that's part of it all.

Ya know, the Sox have attendance problems, ballpark problems, neighborhood probs, and a loooooong time in between championships, and I can see that being frustrating. for crying out loud tho, for a metropolitan are I think the Sox should be albe to at least avg 25-27,00 a game, regardless of the record. When I see people on here complainig it leads me to believe that those on here who complain represent a good portion of others...maybe I'm wrong there too.

soxnut
01-11-2003, 01:22 PM
Hey whitesoxwinner. I agree with you about the yanks. But how many other teams can be like them? The dummies on the north side could, they fill the ballpark every game, and they have and are owned by one of the biggest media outlets in the world. thank God they're pathetic.

That's great that you split a season tix pack with friends, man I wish I could afford to do that. :smile:

WinningUgly!
01-11-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
This is sports, there are no guarantees.... :(: Sox fans have got to have a little more hope than they do. I go to games anyway, but I'm not cub fan like. But from the posts I see here all the time, alot of you do represent the "fair weather fans" I can't wait to go to some games this year, I don't care if the whole starting lineup is on the disabled list, I'll still go to at least 3-5 games. It's always an enjoyable time. Whetheer you like the ownership or not, the players deserve more support than what they get.
Say what you want about limited payroll, but other teams who have had worse records than the Sox have had better attendance, stop being a bunch of babies.

First of all "fair weather fans" don't bitch about anything. They just come out of the woodwork once the team starts winning. The posters here are the furthest thing from fair weather fans. Watch what happens when/if the Sox work a big deal for Colon. This place will be flooded.

I agree with you that the bitching gets very old, but what are you gonna do? People will bitch if the Sox don't get Colon & they'll bitch if they do get him. Every time a FA is signed by another team, there will be a thread started about how "the Sox missed out again", regardless of how worthless the player might be.

soxnut
01-11-2003, 01:29 PM
I guess you're right WinningUgly. Hey by the way, I think that picture of Saddam is one of his imposters :smile: :smile: :(:

RKMeibalane
01-11-2003, 02:18 PM
I found it interesting that KW describes the bullpen as "versitile." The only reason Sox pitchers have filled multiple roles is because of Jerry "The Tinkerer" Manuel.

jeremyb1
01-11-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes

As much bitching as i do here, i do more at the park. And i'm sure the majority of posters here go to their share of games every year eventhough the Sox suck.

see i just can't look at it that way. to each his own. i can't say my team sucks unless they have a losing record and are towards the bottom of the division and then i think i'd still say it sparingly. also, i can't dwell on history. maybe that's because i'm younger than some but i refuse to even look at last season. this season and our chances this year is all that matters to me. i love 98% of the players on the team. i like the manager. i don't care for the gm. i don't particularly like the owner. i do however, like the organization and its philosiphies as a whole.

jeremyb1
01-11-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I would have felt more secure if a GM OTHER then Williams made those comments about the pitching staff.

I mean what the hell do you think he's going to say? That they suck or are terribly inconsistent?

It still comes down to the Sox HOPING the 'can't miss kids" come through.

Sorry, that's not good enough for me. I'm tired of "hoping"... why can't I and other Sox fans KNOW the team is going to be good.


kw is basically only commenting on stats. its not really his opinion that much at all. all he's stating is that the second half of the season was encouraging as far as our young starters go. if you can't admit that wright, garland, rauch, and biddle pitched well in the second half, that they could concievably pitch that well next season, and that that would make us a very good team, you really come across as biased.

you invoke "can't miss kids" all the time like we're talking about some starter in A or AA ball or a starter who was absolutely hammered at the major league level last season. both garland and wright won over 10 games. garland had a respectable era and wright had one after the break. its not like their lightyears away from success.

RedPinStripes
01-11-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
see i just can't look at it that way. to each his own. i can't say my team sucks unless they have a losing record and are towards the bottom of the division and then i think i'd still say it sparingly. also, i can't dwell on history. maybe that's because i'm younger than some but i refuse to even look at last season. this season and our chances this year is all that matters to me. i love 98% of the players on the team. i like the manager. i don't care for the gm. i don't particularly like the owner. i do however, like the organization and its philosiphies as a whole.

Second place is the first place loser. That's my opinion on the Sox and any sport i participate in . I am sick of "dreaming about the future".

cornball
01-11-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
see i just can't look at it that way. to each his own. i can't say my team sucks unless they have a losing record and are towards the bottom of the division and then i think i'd still say it sparingly. also, i can't dwell on history. maybe that's because i'm younger than some but i refuse to even look at last season. this season and our chances this year is all that matters to me. i love 98% of the players on the team. i like the manager. i don't care for the gm. i don't particularly like the owner. i do however, like the organization and its philosiphies as a whole.


First of all if someone is here (on this board) they are not a fair weather fan.

Secondly, history both in baseball and in general is a beautiful thing. It makes baseball great, the pasttime. Lessons can be learned from looking at the past. Argueing over who is a better player....the hall of fame...ect...it is all about history.

I suggest you look at the history, to appreciate the game better.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-11-2003, 03:58 PM
If Gammons thinks we're going to be one of the "surprise teams" of 2003, the jinks of a front-cover Sox feature in Sports Illustrated probably means somebody is going to tragically die. :smile:

We need some positive karma. How about Jerry Reinsdorf passing out $5 bills to anyone who buys a seat in the upper deck and is still sitting up there after 8 innings!

:reinsy
"Nevvvv-er gonna happen!"

delben91
01-11-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

We need some positive karma.

How about the announcement of the hiring of Terry Bevington to be the third base coach. :D:

Brian26
01-11-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Second place is the first place loser. That's my opinion on the Sox and any sport i participate in . I am sick of "dreaming about the future".

I think about this often. I guess I want the Sox, more than anything, to play competitive ball. Some of the best memories of the team I have are when they played their hearts out but came up just short ('83 division, '90, '91, division title in 2000). I don't necessarily need a World Series title to be happy being a Sox fan (although I would never turn that down). But if the Sox can go out every year and win a division title or play competitively so they're in the race until September, I can't say I'd complain. As long as there is always hope they could win, play hard and be fun to watch, I'll be happy. If I had a choice between 10 2nd place 90-win seasons or 1 world title and 9 last place finishes, I might actually go for the former option.

WinningUgly!
01-11-2003, 07:38 PM
All I want is for Jerry Reinsdorf to want this team to win as bad as I do.

TornLabrum
01-11-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
All I want is for Jerry Reinsdorf to want this team to win as bad as I do.

:reinsy

"Son, that's going to be a l-o-o-o-o-n-n-n-n-g wait."

WinningUgly!
01-11-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
:reinsy

"Son, that's going to be a l-o-o-o-o-n-n-n-n-g wait."

Tell me about it.

soxnut
01-12-2003, 12:02 AM
RedPinStripes if you look at things that way, you must not be a very happy person, in my opinion. Why do you even bother being a Sox fan then?? Especially considering the history of this franchise. You should be a Yankee fan....... :cool: :cool:

RedPinStripes
01-12-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
RedPinStripes if you look at things that way, you must not be a very happy person, in my opinion. Why do you even bother being a Sox fan then?? Especially considering the history of this franchise. You should be a Yankee fan....... :cool: :cool:

Yeah, i'm a very unhappy person. When i get pissed i play with Guns!
I'm just very competitive. If you're not going to make a true effort for 1st place why bother? I've quit softball teams because of coaches doing favors to their buddies and playing them over regular starters in late innings . JR has not made a true effort for 1st place since the mid 90's and this team will suck as long as we are a "small market team" and cant have a decent payroll.

Seems like winning dont matter to you as much? I hate to lose, i hate to see the sox lose and i'm sick of watching everyone else get a ring. And yes i get more bitter about the ****ty efforts of upper mgt every year.

And i'm too loyal and just dont know any better to be a fan of other teams.

jeremyb1
01-12-2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Second place is the first place loser. That's my opinion on the Sox and any sport i participate in . I am sick of "dreaming about the future".

to each his own. personally though, if i can't be happy with the team i don't think i'd be able to follow the team anymore. i think i can endure just about anything because i love the white sox so much i'll always be able to find some positive to take out so that i continue to follow the team. i think if i considered us losers and looked at everything in a glass is half empy fashion, baseball would just make me too miserable to keep following it. that's just me though. obviously its different for others.

as for the "dreaming of the future" that some people are so critical of, i think some people fail to understand where i'm coming from. its more an issue of betrayl with me than anything else. with all the harsh attitudes expressed towards ownership, i'm suprised more people on this board can't identify with that.

some people feel betrayed by ownership because jr won't spend enough money to win in their opinion. that upsets me but i don't feel like there was ever a promise on ownerships part to spend certain amounts of money. i've become a realist over the years when it comes to the possibility of the sox paying for big name free agents. things like that just don't happen for this club more than once in a blue moon.

the one area in which i have been sold by the organization and will continue to be sold is in our farm system and our young talent and most importantly our young pitching. this organization made what i feel is a very solid conclusion that its risky and expensive to buy free agent pitchers and that the best way to build a champion is to develop young pitchers as oakland has. the organization has shown this to be more than just talk with the numerous awards its won, the top pitching prospects its developed, and the ace that currently sits atop our rotation.

some of my finest memories as a sox fan come courtesy of the hopes fed to us by the organization: a seminar with garland, wells, myette, and barcelo at sox fest one year, kip wells incredible debut in '99, garland being called up to the majors at twenty years old after stealing him from the cubs, and watching rauch throwing out the first pitch at the sox game after having one of the most dominating seasons by a minor league pitcher in recent years.

the sox already gave up on one of our more promising young pitchers are we will now be forced to watch him pitch successfully in the nl for god knows how long. for me as a sox fan it would be hard to feel more betrayed than if we trade garland just as he appears ready to turn the corner and become an excellent pitcher or rauch just as he becomes healthy for the first time in over two years.

people can make dispariging remarks about "hoping for the future" forever for all i care. however, i personally feel that anyone who thinks that 15 wins from colon next season is going to put a team predicted to finish second in arguably the weakest division in baseball in the world series is being far more naive and dellusional than i am. if we're really only a number two starter away from the world series why doesn't anyone even think we should be considered favorites ahead of the twins?

i think a pitcher like colon could be a highly valuable addition but only if the rest of our rotation remains in tact. is lacking a good number three starter really that much better than lacking a good number two starter? and then what happens next year when colon walks and we have neither a good two or a good three? uh oh. if you guys think kenny is failing to fill holes this season what happens when we trade garland for colon and fail to make the playoffs or go one and done and then watch colon walk? anyone who even tries to argue we'll pay him the 12-15 million dollars per year over a long term deal he'll ask for is certifiably insane.

i want to win now as much as the next guy but what does it mean to win now? if second place is a monumental failure and makes us "losers" then how can we be so sure any moves to win now will actually allow us to "win" now? i'd rather win later than not at all.

RedPinStripes
01-12-2003, 11:46 AM
How long have you been following this team?

I am bitter toward JR and his mgt. I thought he was goig to be a good owner until 1984.

Since then, it's ben nothing but rebuilding, and cutting payroll every 4 years. The Sox have finished in 1st place 4 times since 1959! And i wasnt alive to see them in the series. So i'm sick of watching division winners and watching them get the **** kicked out of them in the playoffs. And as far as your "half full "thory............ It's part of being a fan. Some people get frustrated more then others. I'm sure there are a lot of peope that agree with this post but wont reply because the easiest thing for someone to do is reply with "why are you a Sox fan then?" " Go root for the Yankees" And those kind of remarks piss me off because i'll never turn on this team and root for another. It's an easy way for some to take a cheap shot . I've tried to boycot JR, but it worked for 2 years and i couldnt root for another team in that time. I just didnt follow baseball.

jeremyb1
01-12-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
How long have you been following this team?

I am bitter toward JR and his mgt. I thought he was goig to be a good owner until 1984.

Since then, it's ben nothing but rebuilding, and cutting payroll every 4 years. The Sox have finished in 1st place 4 times since 1959! And i wasnt alive to see them in the series. So i'm sick of watching division winners and watching them get the **** kicked out of them in the playoffs. And as far as your "half full "thory............ It's part of being a fan. Some people get frustrated more then others. I'm sure there are a lot of peope that agree with this post but wont reply because the easiest thing for someone to do is reply with "why are you a Sox fan then?" " Go root for the Yankees" And those kind of remarks piss me off because i'll never turn on this team and root for another. It's an easy way for some to take a cheap shot . I've tried to boycot JR, but it worked for 2 years and i couldnt root for another team in that time. I just didnt follow baseball.

hey, like i said, to each his own. i'm not trying to take shots at anyone. its just hard for me to understand sometimes because i come from a different school of thought.

RedPinStripes
01-12-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
hey, like i said, to each his own. i'm not trying to take shots at anyone. its just hard for me to understand sometimes because i come from a different school of thought.

When the Sox make the Playoffs, believe me I'll party like a rock star especially if they get past the ALDS since i've never seen it.

WinningUgly!
01-12-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
When the Sox make the Playoffs, believe me I'll party like a rock star especially if they get past the ALDS since i've never seen it.

That last trip to the playoffs had me feeling like Kurt Cobain.
http://www.framingwarehouse.co.za/products/1.00000001558.Kurt.Cobain.-.Gun.-.jpg

Lip Man 1
01-12-2003, 01:14 PM
Jeremy says:

some people feel betrayed by ownership because jr won't spend enough money to win in their opinion. that upsets me but i don't feel like there was ever a promise on ownerships part to spend certain amounts of money .

Just wondering Jeremy, and again I'm asking for specifics, please quantify EXACTLY what the owners obligations are.

Keep in mind that the state of Illinois, and the city of Chicago, with tax payers money ... built him his stadium and gave him the best sweetheart lease in all of professional sports according to author John Heylar in his book The Lords Of The Realm.

Specifically what does the owner owe his fans under these circumstances?

I'd be VERY interested to know because when you get out into the "real" world (I assuming you are about 17) YOU ARE GOING TO BE HELPING TO PAY FOR IT. (Let's see if you still look at the glass as half full in ten years time)

I would think ownership under these circumstances is obliged to do more then plead poverty (even though Forbes Business Magazine estimated the worth of the franchise at over 250 million dollars), belittle and insult their own fans and put a second rate product on the field in the nation's third largest market.

You're young, you still look at circumstances in wonder and feel things will turn out for the best. But don't worry, time will cure that, especially when life knocks you on your rear end as it does everybody.

Lip

Paulwny
01-12-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

You're young, you still look at circumstances in wonder and feel things will turn out for the best. But don't worry, time will cure that, especially when life knocks you on your rear end as it does everybody.
Lip

As the present situation stands I doubt I'll see a WS victory in my life time.
Hopefully my newly born grand child will.

wassagstdu
01-12-2003, 03:21 PM
Hey, this is the year! Luis Aparicio predicted it. The quote was, "The Sox won't win another pennant for 40 years." That was when he was traded to Baltimore in 1963 -- 40 years ago Tuesday. How time flies when you're having fun.

Daver
01-12-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
As the present situation stands I doubt I'll see a WS victory in my life time.
Hopefully my newly born grand child will.

Congrats on the addition to the family Paul.

Paulwny
01-12-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by daver
Congrats on the addition to the family Paul.

Thank you !!!

jeremyb1
01-12-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says:

some people feel betrayed by ownership because jr won't spend enough money to win in their opinion. that upsets me but i don't feel like there was ever a promise on ownerships part to spend certain amounts of money .

Just wondering Jeremy, and again I'm asking for specifics, please quantify EXACTLY what the owners obligations are.

Keep in mind that the state of Illinois, and the city of Chicago, with tax payers money ... built him his stadium and gave him the best sweetheart lease in all of professional sports according to author John Heylar in his book The Lords Of The Realm.

Specifically what does the owner owe his fans under these circumstances?

I'd be VERY interested to know because when you get out into the "real" world (I assuming you are about 17) YOU ARE GOING TO BE HELPING TO PAY FOR IT. (Let's see if you still look at the glass as half full in ten years time)

I would think ownership under these circumstances is obliged to do more then plead poverty (even though Forbes Business Magazine estimated the worth of the franchise at over 250 million dollars), belittle and insult their own fans and put a second rate product on the field in the nation's third largest market.

You're young, you still look at circumstances in wonder and feel things will turn out for the best. But don't worry, time will cure that, especially when life knocks you on your rear end as it does everybody.

look at what i typed. i'm not disagreeing with you about anything when it comes to ownership. reinsdorf should spend more. everyone agrees to that. my point was that while that offends me, i never expected that much more. i'm not saying sox fans don't deserve better ownership. i've just grown not to expect it. if that's not being realistic i don't know what is.

i don't understand where you think i'm defending ownership. its always something you accuse me of when i hardly ever do so. there's a world of difference between defending the ownership and simply not having the energy to complain about it. just because in a lot of ways i've accepted that the ownership is inadequate that doesn't mean i think its good.

i'm 20 years old. i'm not about to call myself a veteran sox fan compared to others but i don't think i fit the into the box of the young, naive fan you're trying to put me into. i assure you, i'm jaded about a number of things in life. as i previously explained, i'm jaded about a number of things related to baseball and the white sox too. just because i choose to work to focus on the positive instead of dwelling on the negatives, that doesn't mean that i'm denying the existence of the problems surrounding the team.

TornLabrum
01-12-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
look at what i typed. i'm not disagreeing with you about anything when it comes to ownership. reinsdorf should spend more. everyone agrees to that. my point was that while that offends me, i never expected that much more. i'm not saying sox fans don't deserve better ownership. i've just grown not to expect it. if that's not being realistic i don't know what is.

i don't understand where you think i'm defending ownership. its always something you accuse me of when i hardly ever do so. there's a world of difference between defending the ownership and simply not having the energy to complain about it. just because in a lot of ways i've accepted that the ownership is inadequate that doesn't mean i think its good.

i'm 20 years old. i'm not about to call myself a veteran sox fan compared to others but i don't think i fit the into the box of the young, naive fan you're trying to put me into. i assure you, i'm jaded about a number of things in life. as i previously explained, i'm jaded about a number of things related to baseball and the white sox too. just because i choose to work to focus on the positive instead of dwelling on the negatives, that doesn't mean that i'm denying the existence of the problems surrounding the team.

You're mistaking realism for being jaded. Realism is knowing that death is inevitable and that the Sox are never going to go anywhere. That has nothing to do with being jaded. If we were jaded, we wouldn't care. The problem is that we do. We just know that just as none of us is going to escape the grave, neither are any of us going to see a baseball club that is competently run. The fact that it still galls us is proof that we're not jaded.

RedPinStripes
01-12-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
That last trip to the playoffs had me feeling like Kurt Cobain.
http://www.framingwarehouse.co.za/products/1.00000001558.Kurt.Cobain.-.Gun.-.jpg

*****!!!!!!!!!!

soxnut
01-12-2003, 08:03 PM
jeremyb1.......I like your attitude. There are always going to be dissappointments in life...and they should all be taken with a grain of salt. Older people can have all the realism they want, but it doesn't make them feel any better. In life, always have faith....that's the answer. I've been a Sox fan for 25 years, we've come close a few times, and it hasn't panned out. And it's frustrating. As for taxes being paid for the ballpark...so what. I'd still rather the CHICAGO WHITE SOX...instead of the Florida White Sox......I will never take this franchise for granted as so many others seem(I did say seem) to do........ :smile: :smile: :smile:

jeremyb1
01-12-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
jeremyb1.......I like your attitude. There are always going to be dissappointments in life...and they should all be taken with a grain of salt. Older people can have all the realism they want, but it doesn't make them feel any better. In life, always have faith....that's the answer. I've been a Sox fan for 25 years, we've come close a few times, and it hasn't panned out. And it's frustrating. As for taxes being paid for the ballpark...so what. I'd still rather the CHICAGO WHITE SOX...instead of the Florida White Sox......I will never take this franchise for granted as so many others seem(I did say seem) to do........ :smile: :smile: :smile:

that was great. very well put. thank you.

Lip Man 1
01-12-2003, 09:56 PM
Sob.....my heart is breaking. Oh the humanity! (LOL)

Jeremy says:

just because in a lot of ways i've accepted that the ownership is inadequate that doesn't mean i think its good.

THAT'S part of the problem, Jeremy. You accept the fact that the Sox have bad ownership and do little or nothing to try to change things.

Instead of going to the park twenty times a year, go ten times and write Uncle Jerry to let him know WHY he's not getting xxx amount of your dollars. (If you enjoy baseball that much go see a high school game instead.) The next time the brilliant general manager is on a talk show try to call in and ask him why his deals never work out or ask his qualifications to even BE a GM. Try writing the PR director to let him know you're tired of the same old promotions...Dog Day Afternoon, Beatles night, and Elvis night.

In my own way, I have tried for the last fifteen years to do everything that I can to embarrass, humiliate and show how vindictive, egotistic and shortsighted current ownership is. I've been fortunate to have some media contacts that I've been able to pass useful information along to. I write and contribute to WSI (which everyone agrees is being looked at by the powers that be in the Sox front office) in an effort to educate and to show that while the Sox past history isn't as grand as the Yankees it did have its moments. Those need to be remembered and cherished. because at one time this was a DAMN good organization.

I don't accept the status quo.

I know that as Torn Labrum stated, the grave is going to get us all. I want to be ready for the day when Uncle Jerry departs to the nether regions. I am doing what I can to help the Sox have a brighter future. Hell in some ways I guess I AM AN OPTIMIST! (LOL) because I think, expect and demand that the Sox be better in the future.

That's the difference between myself, and you and your kindred spirits. As far as I'm concerned second place blows and having an organization that has "surrendered" in more then one way to the Cubs organization is sickening and hateful to me, I despise this front office with every fiber of my being.

Granted when Uncle Jerry and his ass kissing, politically correct, incompetent minions leave, there is no guarantee that things will be any better, but I know one thing....they can't possibly be one iota worse!

Lip

soxnut
01-12-2003, 11:28 PM
:smile: Ah...... see Lip Man 1, you do have some faith :D: I don't like the way the current ownership runs things either. I just don't get hysterical about it. I love the Sox, they're on my mind all the time. and yeah you shouldn't go to twenty games when they're bad, excellent point. I do my part in suggesting things that I think they can improve, I email Mr. Gallas at least once a month, and I have written to a few of the front office people (including jr) as well. That's what we can do, and that' about all we can do. And I'll love em anyway.

jeremyb1
01-12-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Sob.....my heart is breaking. Oh the humanity! (LOL)

Jeremy says:

just because in a lot of ways i've accepted that the ownership is inadequate that doesn't mean i think its good.

THAT'S part of the problem, Jeremy. You accept the fact that the Sox have bad ownership and do little or nothing to try to change things.

Instead of going to the park twenty times a year, go ten times and write Uncle Jerry to let him know WHY he's not getting xxx amount of your dollars. (If you enjoy baseball that much go see a high school game instead.) The next time the brilliant general manager is on a talk show try to call in and ask him why his deals never work out or ask his qualifications to even BE a GM. Try writing the PR director to let him know you're tired of the same old promotions...Dog Day Afternoon, Beatles night, and Elvis night.

In my own way, I have tried for the last fifteen years to do everything that I can to embarrass, humiliate and show how vindictive, egotistic and shortsighted current ownership is. I've been fortunate to have some media contacts that I've been able to pass useful information along to. I write and contribute to WSI (which everyone agrees is being looked at by the powers that be in the Sox front office) in an effort to educate and to show that while the Sox past history isn't as grand as the Yankees it did have its moments. Those need to be remembered and cherished. because at one time this was a DAMN good organization.

I don't accept the status quo.

I know that as Torn Labrum stated, the grave is going to get us all. I want to be ready for the day when Uncle Jerry departs to the nether regions. I am doing what I can to help the Sox have a brighter future. Hell in some ways I guess I AM AN OPTIMIST! (LOL) because I think, expect and demand that the Sox be better in the future.

That's the difference between myself, and you and your kindred spirits. As far as I'm concerned second place blows and having an organization that has "surrendered" in more then one way to the Cubs organization is sickening and hateful to me, I despise this front office with every fiber of my being.

Granted when Uncle Jerry and his ass kissing, politically correct, incompetent minions leave, there is no guarantee that things will be any better, but I know one thing....they can't possibly be one iota worse!


i appretiate the fact that you're willing to fight for your beliefs when it comes to ownership. personally i just don't has as much confidence in my own ability to change the status quo. ironically, i guess in this aspect of the team, you're more optimistic and idealistic than i am.

DVG
01-13-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Granted when Uncle Jerry and his ass kissing, politically correct, incompetent minions leave, there is no guarantee that things will be any better, but I know one thing....they can't possibly be one iota worse!

Lip [/B]

They can't be worse? I thought you took pride in being one of the more realistic fans on this board. You are older than I am, I'm
sure you remember the Allyn brothers era. I'd say that the
organization was in worse shape when they ran the ship. I'm not
saying it's terrific now, only that I think you are exaggerating
just a bit. I think you can't get any worse than 56-106 and
attendance of 495,000 loyal souls. Or 1975, when John Allyn was so broke that he came close to not meeting his payroll. Things
HAVE been much worse and I just hope that they never sink to
those depths again.

dougs78
01-13-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

I'd be VERY interested to know because when you get out into the "real" world (I assuming you are about 17) YOU ARE GOING TO BE HELPING TO PAY FOR IT. (Let's see if you still look at the glass as half full in ten years time)

I would think ownership under these circumstances is obliged to do more then plead poverty (even though Forbes Business Magazine estimated the worth of the franchise at over 250 million dollars), belittle and insult their own fans and put a second rate product on the field in the nation's third largest market.

You're young, you still look at circumstances in wonder and feel things will turn out for the best. But don't worry, time will cure that, especially when life knocks you on your rear end as it does everybody.

Lip [/B]

All right, at this point are you really talking about White Sox baseball? I think you are talking more about your life outlook. I remember going through this at about the same time last year with other posters on this board. I can sit here and disagree with lots of things and not really care to comment, because its really of no consequence.

However, when you feel the need to get on and start to criticize and play "life will knock you down card, just you wait and see" card then I really feel I need to say something. That is truly an unfair statement. You have no idea about anything that has gone on in that person's life, so for you to assume that their optimism is born of naivete and lack of insight and thus will be extinguished at some time in the future is just an unacceptable assumption.

And what i think saddens me even more is to see that you truly expect that this person, who you don't even know, will soon have all their hope and faith in the world wiped out in coming 10 years. When I hear this I truly feel bad for you Lip. To think that you go around each and every day dwelling on the negatives of something you have absolutely no control over is simply baffling to me. And above all, to think that its to another person's "benefit" to think along these same lines is just absurd.

I think that I am as realistic as the next person, only my reality is not nearly as pessimistic as yours is, nor as optimistic as some others. It has been my experience, that for the most part, truth (or reality) lie somewhere in between.

Finally, not knowing if you have ever raised a child, I would truly hope that if you did or have, that you would not so recklessly criticize, negate, and scoff at their hopes, aspirations or life outlooks as you do those of many posters on this board.

Lip Man 1
01-13-2003, 12:52 PM
Doug 78:

There is a BIG difference between being positive and being totally unrealistic. Jeremy and his ilk will find that out in time in the real world. It happens to everybody. Sorry that's not what twenty year olds want to hear but that's a fact. I should know...I was like them when I got out of college. Also no I never had any kids. Never had the patience. My wife and I have cats. The upside to them is that when you show a cat where the litter box is they understand. It doesn't quiet work the same way with kids! (LOL)

DVG:

Me thinks you should go back in the historical records and look up the Sox records for the years 1951 through 1967. During that time period they were owned by the Comiskey family, Veeck (the first time) and the Allyn's. After you look it up, do you STILL want to tell me the current organization is doing a better job then them? (Also factoring in the place the Sox hold in the minds of the city during that time as compared to today.)

I state again for the record, this franchise could not possibly be worse off if the Three Stooges owned them.

Lip

Lip

jeremyb1
01-13-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
There is a BIG difference between being positive and being totally unrealistic. Jeremy and his ilk will find that out in time in the real world. It happens to everybody. Sorry that's not what twenty year olds want to hear but that's a fact. I should know...I was like them when I got out of college.

i think that whether someone is just optimistic or unrealstic is simply a matter of opinion. i know of a lot of people who have become older and more conservative whether its in terms of there political views or just their general outlook on life. these people always want to insist that this will happen to everyone who's in the same boat they were when they're were younger. however, there's no reason to necessarily believe this change in attitude will apply to everyone. i haven't had any crushing blows in my life such as living in poverty or losing a parent but i still think i'm quite aware that life is hard. just because i choose not to dwell on that doesn't mean i'm unrealistic or naive. its just something that goes along with my personality. my grandfather is 78 years old and he's perhaps the most jolly man you'd ever meet. if he's had this love of life for that long, i'm certain i can make it a while longer.

DVG
01-13-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Doug 78:

There is a BIG difference between being positive and being totally unrealistic. Jeremy and his ilk will find that out in time in the real world. It happens to everybody. Sorry that's not what twenty year olds want to hear but that's a fact. I should know...I was like them when I got out of college. Also no I never had any kids. Never had the patience. My wife and I have cats. The upside to them is that when you show a cat where the litter box is they understand. It doesn't quiet work the same way with kids! (LOL)

DVG:

Me thinks you should go back in the historical records and look up the Sox records for the years 1951 through 1967. During that time period they were owned by the Comiskey family, Veeck (the first time) and the Allyn's. After you look it up, do you STILL want to tell me the current organization is doing a better job then them? (Also factoring in the place the Sox hold in the minds of the city during that time as compared to today.)

I state again for the record, this franchise could not possibly be worse off if the Three Stooges owned them.

Lip

Lip

I already know the White Sox records between 1951 and 1967,
Lip. But thanks for your concern. I was refering to the crash
and burn years of 1968-75.

Hangar18
01-17-2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Sob.....my heart is breaking. Oh the humanity! (LOL)

Jeremy says:

The next time the brilliant general manager is on a talk show try to call in and ask him why his deals never work out or ask his qualifications to even BE a GM. Try writing the PR director to let him know you're tired of the same old promotions...Dog Day Afternoon, Beatles night, and Elvis night.

In my own way, I have tried for the last fifteen years to do everything that I can to embarrass, humiliate and show how vindictive, egotistic and shortsighted current ownership is. I've been fortunate to have some media contacts that I've been able to pass useful information along to. I write and contribute to WSI (which everyone agrees is being looked at by the powers that be in the Sox front office) in an effort to educate and to show that while the Sox past history isn't as grand as the Yankees it did have its moments. Those need to be remembered and cherished. because at one time this was a DAMN good organization.

I don't accept the status quo.

I know that as Torn Labrum stated, the grave is going to get us all. I want to be ready for the day when Uncle Jerry departs to the nether regions. I am doing what I can to help the Sox have a brighter future. Hell in some ways I guess I AM AN OPTIMIST! (LOL) because I think, expect and demand that the Sox be better in the future.

That's the difference between myself, and you and your kindred spirits. As far as I'm concerned second place blows and having an organization that has "surrendered" in more then one way to the Cubs organization is sickening and hateful to me, I despise this front office with every fiber of my being.

Granted when Uncle Jerry and his ass kissing, politically correct, incompetent minions leave, there is no guarantee that things will be any better, but I know one thing....they can't possibly be one iota worse!

Lip

There have been some very Dark Moments for me as a Lifelong SOX Fan.....a few times ive come THISCLOSE to swearing this
off and just finding another hobby to indulge myself. I fear
those times, im the biggest sox fan around (as are many of you
I can see) because Once that Day comes, Once it arrives
that Im absolutely Sick and Tired of watching this Organization
Run Itself Into The Ground with their bad trades, their terrible
treatment of people that should remain with the team (Fisk,McDowell etc) their Misguided foray into the Urban Planning
Industry (new comiskey & surrounding concrete emptiness)
Their terrible treatment of the very Fans that come to park,
I will never go back.
I wonder what keeps me staying on as a Fan....
Then I realize its everyone Here that keeps me going.
Cheers fellas