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Daver
01-10-2003, 08:08 PM
I think Bud Selig and the rest of the owners paid for this column to be written. (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/lopresti/2003-01-08-lopresti_x.htm)


Either that or this guy beleives every word in Fay Vincent's badly ghost written autobiography.

Ol Aches & Pains
01-10-2003, 09:39 PM
Ryne Sandberg was a very good player, maybe even a Hall of Famer, but a first ballot Hall of Famer? I don't think so. Goose Gossage was overrated, Bruce Sutter didn't do it for long enough at a HOF level. Lee Smith, yes, he belongs in Cooperstown. Marvin Miller? ***? Just my two cents (before taxes).

Daver
01-10-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
Ryne Sandberg was a very good player, maybe even a Hall of Famer, but a first ballot Hall of Famer? I don't think so. Goose Gossage was overrated, Bruce Sutter didn't do it for long enough at a HOF level. Lee Smith, yes, he belongs in Cooperstown. Marvin Miller? ***? Just my two cents (before taxes).

I have a problem with people that diferentiate a HOF'er from a first ballot HOF'er,if a guy deserves to be in the hall,he deserves to be in the hall,plain and simple,no matter whether it is first time or not.

But then again I have a problem with the whole HOF voting process itself,and with all of the acting voting body,so my opinion is moot.

Marvin Miller should have his own wing in the HOF.

Ol Aches & Pains
01-10-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by daver
I have a problem with people that diferentiate a HOF'er from a first ballot HOF'er,if a guy deserves to be in the hall,he deserves to be in the hall,plain and simple,no matter whether it is first time or not.

But then again I have a problem with the whole HOF voting process itself,and with all of the acting voting body,so my opinion is moot.

Marvin Miller should have his own wing in the HOF.

Then I guess you have a problem with me. I suppose you're right in principle, but historically speaking, it's pretty hard to get into the Hall of Fame, as it should be. Somebody didn't vote for Willie Mays, for God's sake! If Ron Santo has to wait 30 years, I don't believe Sandberg should get in on the first try.

Daver
01-10-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
Then I guess you have a problem with me. I suppose you're right in principle, but historically speaking, it's pretty hard to get into the Hall of Fame, as it should be. Somebody didn't vote for Willie Mays, for God's sake! If Ron Santo has to wait 30 years, I don't believe Sandberg should get in on the first try.

Nolan Ryan was also not a unamious first ballot HOFer,and he deserved to be as much as Willie did.

I am still not convinced Ron Santo deserves to be in the HOF,when a guy like Billy Peirce is forever on the outside looking in,or the fact that Milt Pappas has a better W/L record than Don Drysdale,but will never be considered for the hall,the HOF is more about politics than it is about rewarding the players,and that is wrong.

Change the way it is voted for and who gets a vote,instead of letting the same tired old men continue to rule what they think is their own shrine.

Ol Aches & Pains
01-10-2003, 10:32 PM
You lost me there, Daver. What does the fact that Billy Pierce is not in the Hall have to do with Ron Santo? It's not Santo's fault Billy's not in. Santo was a nine time all star, won five straight gold gloves, and hit 342 home runs. What more does he have to do? He doesn't have any more legs to give, let him in while he's still around to enjoy it, I say.

I'll give you Don Drysdale, though. I've made the same observation here before. Nobody in their right mind thinks Milt Pappas should be in the Hall, but there's Drysdale with a worse record. Incidentally, Pierce's own stats aren't that far off from Drysdale and Pappas, and another of my own favorites from that era, Lew Burdette.

Daver
01-10-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
You lost me there, Daver. What does the fact that Billy Pierce is not in the Hall have to do with Ron Santo? It's not Santo's fault Billy's not in. Santo was a nine time all star, won five straight gold gloves, and hit 342 home runs. What more does he have to do? He doesn't have any more legs to give, let him in while he's still around to enjoy it, I say.

I'll give you Don Drysdale, though. I've made the same observation here before. Nobody in their right mind thinks Milt Pappas should be in the Hall, but there's Drysdale with a worse record. Incidentally, Pierce's own stats aren't that far off from Drysdale and Pappas, and another of my own favorites from that era, Lew Burdette.

My point is there are many that are in the HOF for no reason,while there are players with similar stats are not.

Allen Trammel has numbers similar to Santo's,but he will never get in.

Harold Baines is going to become the first player with 1500 hundred RBI to not get in,I doubt he will even get a serious consideration.

The HOF is a joke,and will continue to be a joke until some changes are made to who votes on it and what the priorities are.

Ol Aches & Pains
01-10-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by daver
My point is there are many that are in the HOF for no reason,while there are players with similar stats are not.

Allen Trammel has numbers similar to Santo's,but he will never get in.

Harold Baines is going to become the first player with 1500 hundred RBI to not get in,I doubt he will even get a serious consideration.

The HOF is a joke,and will continue to be a joke until some changes are made to who votes on it and what the priorities are.

OK, I know we have to be delusional to be Sox fans at all, but do you really believe Harold Baines deserves serious consideration?
He didn't put on a glove for the last ten years of his career! The day they start letting DH's in is the day I will agree with you that the Hall is a joke. I know, Eddie Murray was a DH for a while at the end, but Baines DH'd more than half his career.

Daver
01-10-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
OK, I know we have to be delusional to be Sox fans at all, but do you really believe Harold Baines deserves serious consideration?
He didn't put on a glove for the last ten years of his career! The day they start letting DH's in is the day I will agree with you that the Hall is a joke. I know, Eddie Murray was a DH for a while at the end, but Baines DH'd more than half his career.

So you are saying Frank Thomas will not deserve to be in the HOF?


And if you think Ryne Sandberg deserves to be in the HOF why does Lou Whitaker get no support,his numbers are very close to Sandbergs.

TornLabrum
01-10-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
OK, I know we have to be delusional to be Sox fans at all, but do you really believe Harold Baines deserves serious consideration?
He didn't put on a glove for the last ten years of his career! The day they start letting DH's in is the day I will agree with you that the Hall is a joke. I know, Eddie Murray was a DH for a while at the end, but Baines DH'd more than half his career.

The DH has been part of the AL game now for 30 years. It is a legitimate "position" and DHs need to be considered for the HOF just like any other player. As far as Baines was concerned, he was a decent defensive RF who happened to have badly injured knees. But he was one of the best DHs in the game.

Lip Man 1
01-10-2003, 11:30 PM
Is it Baines' fault that baseball decided to specialize?

A DH does what he's supposed to do...hit.

If you think this is a problem now, just wait until Thomas comes up for election.

A relief pitcher does what he's supposed to do...get the last few outs.

Just some numbers for your consideration:

Smith had 33 saves in 1994 in less then 39 innings of work.

Dennis Eckersley had more saves in 1990 (48) then base runners allowed (45)

Specialists should be held to a much higher standard than other players when it comes to Hall membership, but some have met that standard and deserve enshrinement.

Eckersley (who also has a no hitter to his credit) should get in...Smith should not. I also think Gossage should because he was the first closer to strike fear into hitters and changed the way the relief pitcher's role was used. Before Goose, closers like Fingers and Wilhelm could pitch anywhere from one inning to six.

When Goose started to be used for only an inning or two at the most, that changed the game.

Lip

WinningUgly!
01-10-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
OK, I know we have to be delusional to be Sox fans at all, but do you really believe Harold Baines deserves serious consideration?
He didn't put on a glove for the last ten years of his career! The day they start letting DH's in is the day I will agree with you that the Hall is a joke. I know, Eddie Murray was a DH for a while at the end, but Baines DH'd more than half his career.

The DH has been part of the game for 30+ years. I don't understand why somebody like Harold Baines (or eventually guys like Frank Thomas, Edgar Martinez, etc.) should be penalized for playing a large part of their careers in that role. There are plenty of guys in the HOF who were butchers defensively.

Ozzie Smith is in the HOF only because of his defensive abilities (backflips on national TV don't hurt either), how come we automatically rule out players who are known only for offense? Why would this cheapen the HOF?

I've never heard anyone make a case against a NL pitcher being HOF-worthy because of them not facing DHs 3-4 times a game, over the course of their career. No extra credit is ever given to HOF eligible AL pitchers either. When evaluating pitchers for the hall, the DH is just accepted as part of the game & not even factored into the equation. So when a DH comes along with HOF worthy numbers, we are just supposed to pretend like they don't exist?

hose
01-11-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by daver
I think Bud Selig and the rest of the owners paid for this column to be written. (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/lopresti/2003-01-08-lopresti_x.htm)


Either that or this guy beleives every word in Fay Vincent's badly ghost written autobiography.


Miller belongs in the Hall of Fame, he had a huge impact on the game.

gosox41
01-11-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
OK, I know we have to be delusional to be Sox fans at all, but do you really believe Harold Baines deserves serious consideration?
He didn't put on a glove for the last ten years of his career! The day they start letting DH's in is the day I will agree with you that the Hall is a joke. I know, Eddie Murray was a DH for a while at the end, but Baines DH'd more than half his career.

Not too many players make the Hall for their defense. Some do, but it's mostly about offense. The fact is that DH is a legit position by the rules. It's also a position that many teams devote a lot of money to because it helps the team score runs. It deosn't matter to me if a player was a DH or played a position. There are certain offensive accomplishments that are hard to achieve in baseball and should be rewarded.

Bob

Ol Aches & Pains
01-11-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by daver
So you are saying Frank Thomas will not deserve to be in the HOF?


And if you think Ryne Sandberg deserves to be in the HOF why does Lou Whitaker get no support,his numbers are very close to Sandbergs.

If Frank Thomas is only going to be a DH from now on, he'd better remember how he used to hit and start doing it again. Maybe there needs to be a specialists' wing in the HOF for DH's and closers, and Marvin Miller for that matter.

I didn't say Sandberg deserves to be in the Hall, I said he was a very good player, and maybe a Hall of Famer. I don't think he has much support outside of Chicago. I'm not that thrilled at the prospect, I'd rather see Santo in than Sandberg.

Daver
01-11-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
If Frank Thomas is only going to be a DH from now on, he'd better remember how he used to hit and start doing it again. Maybe there needs to be a specialists' wing in the HOF for DH's and closers, and Marvin Miller for that matter.


Why?

Are you saying that closers and DH's are not ballplayers?


And Marvin Miller deserves his own wing in the Hall.