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hold2dibber
01-08-2003, 04:18 PM
On the ESPN board, the rumor is swirling that Boston radio is reporting that the White Sox and Montreal are in discussions over Colon (http://boards.espn.go.com/cgi/mlb/request.dll?MESSAGE&room=mlb_chw&id=179614). I'm hoping that Minaya has overplayed his hand and that the Sox can get him without giving up the farm. If, as reported, the best offer on the table now is Shea Hillenbrand, I would think a Wright/Rowand/Almonte offer, or something along those lines, might get it done. Or if the Sox were willing to take on the final year of Tatis' contract, they could probably have Colon for way cheap.

Maybe that should have been in deeppink.

voodoochile
01-08-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
On the ESPN board, the rumor is swirling that Boston radio is reporting that the White Sox and Montreal are in discussions over Colon (http://boards.espn.go.com/cgi/mlb/request.dll?MESSAGE&room=mlb_chw&id=179614). I'm hoping that Minaya has overplayed his hand and that the Sox can get him without giving up the farm. If, as reported, the best offer on the table now is Shea Hillenbrand, I would think a Wright/Rowand/Almonte offer, or something along those lines, might get it done. Or if the Sox were willing to take on the final year of Tatis' contract, they could probably have Colon for way cheap.

Maybe that should have been in deeppink.

Probably, considering that the whole thing is based on a trollboard poster who claims to be from Boston and have heard it on the radio...

My sisters cousin's next door neighbor has an uncle who knows the BoSox mascot and he overheard the groundskeepers kid tell his friend that he heard...

hold2dibber
01-08-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Probably, considering that the whole thing is based on a trollboard poster who claims to be from Boston and have heard it on the radio...

My sisters cousin's next door neighbor has an uncle who knows the BoSox mascot and he overheard the groundskeepers kid tell his friend that he heard...

Of course you're right; I'm so desparate for the Sox to improve the rotation that I was willing to consider the possibility that this was true, despite the entirely unreliable source and the patent unlikelihood of the Sox doing a damn thing to improve the club. Sigh.

voodoochile
01-08-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Of course you're right; I'm so desparate for the Sox to improve the rotation that I was willing to consider the possibility that this was true, despite the entirely unreliable source and the patent unlikelihood of the Sox doing a damn thing to improve the club. Sigh.

Hey, I'm as optimistic as the next guy and I think it does bode well for the Sox that nothing has been finalized yet. The longer it goes the more other things settle into place and reduce the market for Colon amongst other clubs. KW has shown he is not afraid to pull the trigger on a blockbuster trade. I don't put much weight in the current report, but who knows what evil lurks in the mind of KW...

jeremyb1
01-08-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
On the ESPN board, the rumor is swirling that Boston radio is reporting that the White Sox and Montreal are in discussions over Colon (http://boards.espn.go.com/cgi/mlb/request.dll?MESSAGE&room=mlb_chw&id=179614). I'm hoping that Minaya has overplayed his hand and that the Sox can get him without giving up the farm. If, as reported, the best offer on the table now is Shea Hillenbrand, I would think a Wright/Rowand/Almonte offer, or something along those lines, might get it done. Or if the Sox were willing to take on the final year of Tatis' contract, they could probably have Colon for way cheap.

Maybe that should have been in deeppink.

i'd be pretty pissed if we traded for colon at this point considering the fact that millwood is just as good or better, will cost roughly the same amount, has the same number of years left on his deal, and would've cost a lot less in terms of players. all i can say is rauch or garland (in particular) had better not be involved it any deal we'd make for colon or you'll see one very upset man.

BarryFoote
01-08-2003, 05:24 PM
If this is true this would be a good move for the Sox.
It bolsters the rotation and gives them a definitive 1 or 2.
I am sick of the naysayers always afraid of giving up the talent which continues to be stockpiled in the minors.

With Colon it basically can seal up the division and possibly onward.

Sox in 2003

jeremyb1
01-08-2003, 05:44 PM
i checked out the red sox board and it seems to be legit. only a few people questioned it and supposedly at least two different people on that board heard the rumor. however, the rumor only says that we're talking with the expos which is no huge deal. there was no report that a deal was imminent by any means so while the report does seem to be true i don't think it means much.

Foulke You
01-08-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by BarryFoote
If this is true this would be a good move for the Sox.
It bolsters the rotation and gives them a definitive 1 or 2.
I am sick of the naysayers always afraid of giving up the talent which continues to be stockpiled in the minors.

With Colon it basically can seal up the division and possibly onward.

Sox in 2003


I wouldn' t say the division would be sown up but we certainly would be in a better position to compete with the Twins. Getting a potential 18-20 game winner will always help your team. I hope this deal happens but I'm not holding my breath.

hold2dibber
01-08-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'd be pretty pissed if we traded for colon at this point considering the fact that millwood is just as good or better, will cost roughly the same amount, has the same number of years left on his deal, and would've cost a lot less in terms of players. all i can say is rauch or garland (in particular) had better not be involved it any deal we'd make for colon or you'll see one very upset man.

I don't know that I agree that Millwood is as good as Colon:

Career starts: Milwood 160, Colon 177
Complete games: KM 6, BC 19
Shut Outs: KM 2, BC 7
ERA: KM 3.73, BC 3.85
BAA: KM .241, BC .253
W/L: KM 75-46, BC 85-49

In light of the fact that Colon has pitched almost all of his career in the AL (where he has to face DHs and doesn't get to face pitchers), I think he's better. And I think when he's at his best, he is absolutely dominating, which I don't think you can say for Milwood.

In any event, I would rather have Milwood for Josh Paul than Colon for Jon Garland, but I'm not at all convinced that KW could have had him for that little. That whole Milwood trade still has me scratching my head. I just cannot imagine that Schuerholz actually called every GM and was turned down for Milwood. The Braves? The Yankees? The Cubs? The Red Sox? Not one of those teams was willing to add some payroll to pick up Milwood for nothing? I just don't think we're getting the whole story on that deal, though I can't for the life of me imagine what the whole story is.

jeremyb1
01-08-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't know that I agree that Millwood is as good as Colon:

Career starts: Milwood 160, Colon 177
Complete games: KM 6, BC 19
Shut Outs: KM 2, BC 7
ERA: KM 3.73, BC 3.85
BAA: KM .241, BC .253
W/L: KM 75-46, BC 85-49

In light of the fact that Colon has pitched almost all of his career in the AL (where he has to face DHs and doesn't get to face pitchers), I think he's better. And I think when he's at his best, he is absolutely dominating, which I don't think you can say for Milwood.

In any event, I would rather have Milwood for Josh Paul than Colon for Jon Garland, but I'm not at all convinced that KW could have had him for that little. That whole Milwood trade still has me scratching my head. I just cannot imagine that Schuerholz actually called every GM and was turned down for Milwood. The Braves? The Yankees? The Cubs? The Red Sox? Not one of those teams was willing to add some payroll to pick up Milwood for nothing? I just don't think we're getting the whole story on that deal, though I can't for the life of me imagine what the whole story is.

if the difference in leagues affects one's play that much you're probably right. however, i strongly disagree that millwood is anything but dominant when he pitches well. in fact, i'd argue that he's much more dominant then colon when he's on.

in '99 millwood had a 2.68 era, allowing just 168 hits and 59 walk in 228 ip. he struckout 205 that season which is approaching one per inning. millwood was almost as dominant after the first two months of last season. after may, the highest era he posted in any month was 3.35. over that stretch, millwood allowed just 115 hits in 147.1 ip. rob neyer was quick to point out that millwood's secondary numbers suggested he'd pitched just as well as glavine and maddux last season. if the phillies get the millwood from '99 and last season he'll be better than colon next season.

colon was outstanding last season but before last year, but he's going to be 30 next season and the lowest era he'd ever posted in a season before last year was 3.71. while colon did significantly cut down on his walks last season, he gave up about as many hits and actually struck out quite a few less batters than he has in the past. all this makes me think he's very unlikely to repeat last season. he's a good number two and should post an era near 3.80 or maybe even 3.50 but not 2.93 again.

lowesox
01-08-2003, 09:32 PM
This is a terrible trade for the Sox. Wright almost won 15 games last year, and would be expected to win more this year. He makes next to nothing. Optimistically, Colon could be expected to win at most 20 games next.

That means we'd give up 2 other good prospects, and about 8-9 million dollars for a margin off 5 wins??

Wright alone for Colon, and I'd think about it.

cornball
01-08-2003, 09:37 PM
Funny thing is I remember last year there was a rumor of Leifer for Millwood.....Millwood was coming off a bad year, the Braves wanted a left handed hitting first baseman and Leifer came off a half way decent year.

Many of the psters here didnt think too much of him at that time....funny how time changes things.

jeremyb1
01-08-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Funny thing is I remember last year there was a rumor of Leifer for Millwood.....Millwood was coming off a bad year, the Braves wanted a left handed hitting first baseman and Leifer came off a half way decent year.

Many of the psters here didnt think too much of him at that time....funny how time changes things.

the thing with millwood is that he's been inconsistent. however, he was on at the end of last season and maddux was quoted as saying he thinks millwood finally understands how to consitently pitch well. when he's on his game he's as good as any pitcher in baseball save pedro.

Daver
01-08-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Funny thing is I remember last year there was a rumor of Leifer for Millwood.....Millwood was coming off a bad year, the Braves wanted a left handed hitting first baseman and Leifer came off a half way decent year.

Many of the psters here didnt think too much of him at that time....funny how time changes things.

I'd be happy to get a decent ballgirl for Jeff Liefer,unfortunately everyone outside of the Sox front office knows the guy is,at best,a serviceable bench warmer.Not a Good bench warmer,but a servicable one.

cornball
01-08-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the thing with millwood is that he's been inconsistent. however, he was on at the end of last season and maddux was quoted as saying he thinks millwood finally understands how to consitently pitch well. when he's on his game he's as good as any pitcher in baseball save pedro.

That is true with just about every pitcher. Somedays they are dominant...somedays ...well but Millwood was 18-7 with a 2.68 ERA with 205 K's in 218 innings in 1999.

If we can get Colon we should do it.

WinningUgly!
01-08-2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
This is a terrible trade for the Sox. Wright almost won 15 games last year, and would be expected to win more this year. He makes next to nothing. Optimistically, Colon could be expected to win at most 20 games next.

That means we'd give up 2 other good prospects, and about 8-9 million dollars for a margin off 5 wins??

Wright alone for Colon, and I'd think about it.

So in a playoff series against say...the Yankees, you'd feel better about the Sox chances with a Danny Wright on the hill over a Colon-caliber pitcher? Colon is a legit #1, so is Mark Buehrle. Winning the AL Central is not a given, but it is very possible (even without Colon). Having 2 stud, top of the rotation guys come playoff time would give the Sox as good of a chance at the Series as any other team in baseball. I just can't see passing up on a chance like that over Danny Wright. I'll do flips if the Sox land Colon, but I'm not about to get my hopes up.

hold2dibber
01-08-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
This is a terrible trade for the Sox. Wright almost won 15 games last year, and would be expected to win more this year. He makes next to nothing. Optimistically, Colon could be expected to win at most 20 games next.

That means we'd give up 2 other good prospects, and about 8-9 million dollars for a margin off 5 wins??

Wright alone for Colon, and I'd think about it.

So, under that thinking, you probably wouldn't trade Wright and a few good prospects for Randy Johnson, right? I mean, you could only count on Johnson for, realistically, 22 wins, which would only be about 7 more than Wright might win. And Johnson will make like $11 or $12 million. You wouldn't want to give up Wright and some good prospects, and about $12 million dollars for a margin of 7 wins!

Of course, the fact that Colon (and Johnson) can match up against other top of the rotation starters and win in the playoffs and the regular season shouldn't factor in (don't forget that Wright, and his over 5.00 ERA won 14 games pitching against other back of the rotation starters). That Colon can pitch deep into games and save the bullpen shouldn't factor in. That Colon's ERA was about 2.50 LOWER than Wright's last season shouldn't factor in.

Uggh.

Rocklive99
01-08-2003, 10:15 PM
I'd do this trade in a second, even the Sox commentators admitted that Wright is not suited to be a starter and is best as a reliever.

I wouldn't be mad if the guys we traded would have a decent year like what happened with Pit, because Colon>>>>>>Ritchie. I'd take the risk, but that's just my opinion.

SoxxoS
01-08-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Rocklive99
I'd do this trade in a second, even the Sox commentators admitted that Wright is not suited to be a starter and is best as a reliever.

I wouldn't be mad if the guys we traded would have a decent year like what happened with Pit, because Colon>>>>>>Ritchie. I'd take the risk, but that's just my opinion.

Who said that Wright was better suited as a reliever than a starter? He is 6'5" and has a big frame that can take the workload. That doesn't make much sense to me.

SoxxoS
01-08-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Rocklive99
I'd do this trade in a second, even the Sox commentators admitted that Wright is not suited to be a starter and is best as a reliever.

I wouldn't be mad if the guys we traded would have a decent year like what happened with Pit, because Colon>>>>>>Ritchie. I'd take the risk, but that's just my opinion.

Who said that Wright was better suited as a reliever than a starter? He is 6'5" and has a big frame that can take the workload. That doesn't make much sense to me.

hold2dibber
01-08-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
if the difference in leagues affects one's play that much you're probably right. however, i strongly disagree that millwood is anything but dominant when he pitches well. in fact, i'd argue that he's much more dominant then colon when he's on.

in '99 millwood had a 2.68 era, allowing just 168 hits and 59 walk in 228 ip. he struckout 205 that season which is approaching one per inning. millwood was almost as dominant after the first two months of last season. after may, the highest era he posted in any month was 3.35. over that stretch, millwood allowed just 115 hits in 147.1 ip. rob neyer was quick to point out that millwood's secondary numbers suggested he'd pitched just as well as glavine and maddux last season. if the phillies get the millwood from '99 and last season he'll be better than colon next season.

colon was outstanding last season but before last year, but he's going to be 30 next season and the lowest era he'd ever posted in a season before last year was 3.71. while colon did significantly cut down on his walks last season, he gave up about as many hits and actually struck out quite a few less batters than he has in the past. all this makes me think he's very unlikely to repeat last season. he's a good number two and should post an era near 3.80 or maybe even 3.50 but not 2.93 again.

I don't think there's a huge difference between the two - I'd be thrilled with either of them. But I also note that in the last five years, Millwood has had only two seasons with sub- 4.00 ERA (in the NL) whereas Colon has had four (almost entirely in the AL). Colon is only 18 months older than Millwood. And I also feel like Colon is coming into his own; last year was, arguably, his best season. I think he finally figured out how to pitch last year. I think he's going to put up comparable numbers for the next 2-3 years.

In any event, I guess my original point was that I don't want to take the Millwood trade into consideration when evaluating a possible Sox/Expos deal. The Millwood trade was an abberation; I am banishing it from my memory forever, because it makes me sick. I am no KW fan, but I can't even imagine that he would, for example, reject a Millwood for Rowand or Millwood for J. Paul only to accept a Colon for Garland deal. No one can be that stupid, right?

jeremyb1
01-08-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
In any event, I guess my original point was that I don't want to take the Millwood trade into consideration when evaluating a possible Sox/Expos deal. The Millwood trade was an abberation; I am banishing it from my memory forever, because it makes me sick. I am no KW fan, but I can't even imagine that he would, for example, reject a Millwood for Rowand or Millwood for J. Paul only to accept a Colon for Garland deal. No one can be that stupid, right?

haha. that's probably a pretty good policy. someone's a monumental idiot here. either shuelerholz or a good third of the gms in baseball. its mostly likely schulerholz. however, i still find it hard to believe that he'd so carelessly help out the phillies. its widely known we're in the market for a two. i can't believe we didn't talk with him at all. i also can't believe he wouldn't take a pitcher like malone or even stewart or ulacia over estrada since he'd be trading millwood out of the entire league.

oldcomiskey
01-09-2003, 05:55 AM
In any event, I guess my original point was that I don't want to take the Millwood trade into consideration when evaluating a possible Sox/Expos deal. The Millwood trade was an abberation; I am banishing it from my memory forever, because it makes me sick. I am no KW fan, but I can't even imagine that he would, for example, reject a Millwood for Rowand or Millwood for J. Paul only to accept a Colon for Garland deal. No one can be that stupid, right? [/B][/QUOTE]

Just a minute here---who said Millwood was EVEN offered tot he Sox and besodes that means there were were other GMs who slept thru it--dont blame KW because Schurholtz was an idiot

Paulwny
01-09-2003, 06:07 AM
From the Boston Globe 1/8/03:
The (Red) Sox were reaching out to teams in every corner of the country in the hopes of striking a three-way swap that would entice Montreal general manager Omar Minaya to part with Colon or his talented No. 2 starter, Javier Vazquez. Third baseman Shea Hillenbrand remained Boston's key bargaining chip, while possibilities involving third-party clubs - the Astros, Orioles, Mets, and Rockies among them - remained all but boundless.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/008/sports/Sox_may_be_out_for_Justice_and_Millar+.shtml

hold2dibber
01-09-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Just a minute here---who said Millwood was EVEN offered tot he Sox and besodes that means there were were other GMs who slept thru it--dont blame KW because Schurholtz was an idiot

You're right, and that's one of the reasons that I'm not going to rip KW a new one for not getting in on Millwood. On the day of the trade, Schuerholz suggested, rather vaguely I thought, that he tried hard to deal Millwood but absolutely no one other than the Phillies would bite. Some have interpreted his comments to mean that he called every single team and let them know of Milwood's availability. I just cannot imagine that to be true, because I cannot imagine that if he had done so, no one would have offered anyone better than Erik Estrada (of CHiPs fame!). On the otherhand, I can't believe that Schuerholz would deal Millwood to his chief in-division rival without first calling every single GM. Maybe I just don't have sufficient imagination. In either event, that trade leaves me flabergasted to this day.

Hangar18
01-09-2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
This is a terrible trade for the Sox. Wright almost won 15 games last year, and would be expected to win more this year. He makes next to nothing. Optimistically, Colon could be expected to win at most 20 games next.

That means we'd give up 2 other good prospects, and about 8-9 million dollars for a margin off 5 wins??

Wright alone for Colon, and I'd think about it.



EXCELLENT EXCELLENT POINT. why cant KW look at trades with this kind of Reasoning? The Expos want to give the guy away
(ala the Marlins getting "rid" of Clement-Who in mind should have been a SOX)

harwar
01-09-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Rocklive99
I'd do this trade in a second, even the Sox commentators admitted that Wright is not suited to be a starter and is best as a reliever.

I wouldn't be mad if the guys we traded would have a decent year like what happened with Pit, because Colon>>>>>>Ritchie. I'd take the risk, but that's just my opinion.

I hope the trade is Wright,Liefer,Rauch for Colon,what we probably get is Garland,Konerko,Lee,& Borchard for Vasquez..I Don't Trust Ken Williams!

lowesox
01-09-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
So, under that thinking, you probably wouldn't trade Wright and a few good prospects for Randy Johnson, right? I mean, you could only count on Johnson for, realistically, 22 wins, which would only be about 7 more than Wright might win. And Johnson will make like $11 or $12 million. You wouldn't want to give up Wright and some good prospects, and about $12 million dollars for a margin of 7 wins!

Of course, the fact that Colon (and Johnson) can match up against other top of the rotation starters and win in the playoffs and the regular season shouldn't factor in (don't forget that Wright, and his over 5.00 ERA won 14 games pitching against other back of the rotation starters). That Colon can pitch deep into games and save the bullpen shouldn't factor in. That Colon's ERA was about 2.50 LOWER than Wright's last season shouldn't factor in.

Uggh.

I'm saying the Sox need to trade smart. If you want to have a good-cheap rotation, you don't trade a guy who's won 14 games, is cheap, and getting better. If you do, 3 years from now Colon will be gone and Wright will be winning 15-20 games for somebody else. Your rotation matchup argument only holds water for about the first 2 weeks, then everything gets mixed up. Wrights a good pitcher and WhiteSox fans don't appreciate him as much as they should just because his ERA is high. That happens with all young pitchers (like Colon and R. Johnson when they were young) but the fact that he's won 14 games shows that he knows how to gut out a win.

I'd be very happy to trade for Colon, so long as we don't overpay and that we leave the already key parts of our rotation Buerle, Garland, and Wright alone.

Hangar18
01-09-2003, 10:19 AM
WHich is why I didnt like the Sirotka for Wells trade when it happened. That year, we needed 2 pitchers (because of Injuries)
and we basically traded one for one......not too smart because
the net result was 1 Pitcher. we still needed 2 pitchers....
and look what happened that year.

if we trade a Garland and Wright for Colon...
were gaining one Good Pitcher, and were still down 2 Pitchers

NewyorkSoxFan
01-09-2003, 10:51 AM
you never know with KW, but I am sure that this deal will include minor league talent. They also need a first baseman, and Leifer would fill that bill as well. But let's face it we won't get this guy giving up garbage, so be prepared to lose something otherwise don't even begin the dialogue.


NYSF

hold2dibber
01-09-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I'm saying the Sox need to trade smart. If you want to have a good-cheap rotation, you don't trade a guy who's won 14 games, is cheap, and getting better. If you do, 3 years from now Colon will be gone and Wright will be winning 15-20 games for somebody else. Your rotation matchup argument only holds water for about the first 2 weeks, then everything gets mixed up. Wrights a good pitcher and WhiteSox fans don't appreciate him as much as they should just because his ERA is high. That happens with all young pitchers (like Colon and R. Johnson when they were young) but the fact that he's won 14 games shows that he knows how to gut out a win.

I'd be very happy to trade for Colon, so long as we don't overpay and that we leave the already key parts of our rotation Buerle, Garland, and Wright alone.

I guess it all comes down to how much you value Wright. I agree that he showed enough last year to impress me and think he might turn into a real stud. On the other hand, Colon already is a real stud. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Wright never got any better than Jeff Suppan. And I wouldn't be all that surprised if Wright regressed and never does any better than he did last year. Same goes for Garland.

The point is, you can't be afraid to trade young promising pitchers because young promising pitchers who never make good in the majors are a dime a dozen. I remember in the early '90s all the talk about how whenever the Sox wanted to make a major acquisition, the other team always asked for Ruffcorn and/or Baldwin, and Schueler wouldn't deal either of them. I don't even want to know who we could have had in exchange for those guys, because I'm pretty sure it would make my Sox-related ulcer grow another 30%.

The caveat is, you don't trade promising young pitchers for middle of the road guys like Ritchie. But Colon, obviously, is no Ritchie. He is a top of the rotation, playoff Game no. 1 kind of guy. Of course, I'd rather trade Malone, West and Stewart for Colon, but realistically, the Expos are going to want someone who has shown the potential to be effective in the majors.

Finally, I also agree with you and others that the Sox would have been much better off if they had delved into the free agent market instead so they wouldn't have to give up a starter to get a starter. The fact is, theey're pretty thin in terms of rotation depth, so even if they deal for Colon, if they have to give up a current starter, they'll still need to pick up one more (e.g., Valdes, Wilson, Suppan). And i they do trade anyone of real value for Colon, they better be damn sure they can sign him to an extension.

Iwritecode
01-09-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The point is, you can't be afraid to trade young promising pitchers because young promising pitchers who never make good in the majors are a dime a dozen. I remember in the early '90s all the talk about how whenever the Sox wanted to make a major acquisition, the other team always asked for Ruffcorn and/or Baldwin, and Schueler wouldn't deal either of them. I don't even want to know who we could have had in exchange for those guys, because I'm pretty sure it would make my Sox-related ulcer grow another 30%.

The caveat is, you don't trade promising young pitchers for middle of the road guys like Ritchie. But Colon, obviously, is no Ritchie. He is a top of the rotation, playoff Game no. 1 kind of guy. Of course, I'd rather trade Malone, West and Stewart for Colon, but realistically, the Expos are going to want someone who has shown the potential to be effective in the majors.

I agree that you can't be afraid to trade young promising pitchers but when it's those pitchers you plan on filling out your rotation with, it doesn't make much sense to get rid of them. Especially if they have shwon potential to be effective in the majors.

Right now our rotation is pretty much Burly, Garland, Wright and 2 question marks. If we trade either Garland or Wright then we will still have 3 set spots and 2 question marks. If they make a trade I'd rather end up with 4 set spots and 1 question mark. That means the only pitchers I'd be willing to trade would be the ones fighting for those last to spots. Except for maybe Rauch...

Lip Man 1
01-09-2003, 12:39 PM
Jeremy says:

i still find it hard to believe that he'd so carelessly help out the phillies. its widely known we're in the market for a two. i can't believe we didn't talk with him at all.

Folks...please allow me to state again what I posted at the time:

The White Sox were NOT interested in Millwood because...

1. His agent is SCOTT BORAS

2. He is expected to make at least ten million this season after arbitration.

That is the way the Sox operate...on the cheap. You know it and I know it.

Alsp please remember I posted that I asked either Phil Rogers or Paul Sullivan about Millwood. (I think it was Sully) and was told that they asked Williams the same thing and was told "the cost factor in terms of money" killed it.

Lip

hold2dibber
01-09-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Alsp please remember I posted that I asked either Phil Rogers or Paul Sullivan about Millwood. (I think it was Sully) and was told that they asked Williams the same thing and was told "the cost factor in terms of money" killed it.


If that's right, then it seems unlikely that we're in on the Colon talks, since he'll be making about the same as Millwood.

Paulwny
01-09-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If that's right, then it seems unlikely that we're in on the Colon talks, since he'll be making about the same as Millwood.

Since the sox are on a tight budget they'll trade equal money for equal money , players making ~ Colon's salary.
The expos are dumping payroll and only want young cheap players. They won't trade Colon for players earning ~ the same as Colon.
Unless the sox decide to add some payroll, Colon is a dream.

34 Inch Stick
01-09-2003, 03:11 PM
Thirty five posts and the only ones that are based in reality are the last three. We are not getting anybody. No Maddux, No Colon, No Byrd, No Trachsell and NO not even a Suppan.

It is a painfull road to travel to this state of enlightenment that I have reached, grasshopper, but once you are here life has no stress.

SERENITY NOW! Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm.

lowesox
01-09-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
you never know with KW, but I am sure that this deal will include minor league talent. They also need a first baseman, and Leifer would fill that bill as well. But let's face it we won't get this guy giving up garbage, so be prepared to lose something otherwise don't even begin the dialogue.


NYSF

Don't get me wrong, I know we'd have to give up some talent to get Colon. I just don't want to trade a key element of the team. Like Hangar said its one good pitcher for another. Right now, (and I know this might seem crazy) but I'd sooner trade Honel or Borchard, because even though they have the potential to be stars one day, trading them would only upgrade the major league team.

I think a fair trade would be: J. Rauch, J. Stewart, and E. Almonte for Colon. I would accept that trade if I were Montreal, and I would accept that trade if I was Chicago.

Brian26
01-09-2003, 11:08 PM
That's not a fair trade for the Expos at all. I'd love to have Colon as much as anyone here, but the Expos are going to want Rauch (or Borchard), C-Lee (or Garland), another minor league pitcher (Stewart or Almonte), and probably cash. No way do they trade Colon for three totally unproven minor league guys.

doublem23
01-09-2003, 11:26 PM
Colon isn't coming here; best not get worked up over it.

soxguy
01-09-2003, 11:56 PM
hey if we can get colon then i'd give up any of the aformentioned marginal pitchers, but i don't think it gonna happen. Chuck finley now..........hmmmmm?

jeremyb1
01-10-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If that's right, then it seems unlikely that we're in on the Colon talks, since he'll be making about the same as Millwood.

clearly we're at least somewhat interested in colon though. it was reported at the beginning of the offseason that we targeted him. its been widely reported by a number of sources over the last few days that we're in talks with the expos. its not like his salary was a secret until recently. i suppose its possible that we're going after vazquez and not colon but i haven't heard anyone say that.

hold2dibber
01-10-2003, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
That's not a fair trade for the Expos at all. I'd love to have Colon as much as anyone here, but the Expos are going to want Rauch (or Borchard), C-Lee (or Garland), another minor league pitcher (Stewart or Almonte), and probably cash. No way do they trade Colon for three totally unproven minor league guys.

I guess time will tell, but the traded totally unproven minor league guys to get Colon, so I wouldn't be totally shocked it they accepted totally unproven minor league guys in return for him (though they'd have to be serious prospects, like Rauch). In fact, the rumored 3-way deal with the Marlins and Reds (which reportedly fell apart because of the Reds' concerns about Brad Penny's shoulder) had the Expos getting three minor leaguers and no major leaguers.

I'm pretty confident that they would take Rauch, Munoz and either Sanders, Stewart or West. But I'm not positive that I'd take that trade, because I still think that Rauch is going to be a real good pitcher. If the Sox could get the Expos to take Honel, Munoz and Ring, I'd do that in a heartbeat.

schlomo
01-15-2003, 11:46 AM
The deal is done.

Liefer won't be overly missed, Biddle will be missed as the right handed Bryan Ward. Colon will be known as the right handed Wilson Alvarez - but hopefully we'll get his last good year before he blows out his arm reaching for the double fried burrito.