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View Full Version : Signings, Signings Everywhere...


WhiteSoxWinner
01-02-2003, 08:50 PM
...but not a one on the Southside.

Signings today:

Orioles signed Omar Daal 2 years undisclosed
Flubs signed Dave Veres 1 year $2 million + incentives
Cardinals sign Al Levine 1 year $600,000 + incentives

(ESPN wires for further details: http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/gen/wire?sectionId=3)

I would have liked to have seen Daal or Levine here. Kenny, WHERE ARE YOU!!!!

:KW

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, huh? Wake me for spring training. Like another great Chicago figure said, "All the pieces are in places."

:wanne

Hey, thanks for the credit, Kenny.

Daver
01-02-2003, 09:12 PM
I think I am on record somewhere as saying the Sox would do nothing this offseason,KW has yet to prove me wrong,though I would really like to be proven wrong at any time now.............

soxtalker
01-02-2003, 09:54 PM
The list of available pitchers is indeed shrinking as time goes by, but so does the list of teams that is looking at them. Any thoughts as to what is happening to the price? In other words, could KW simply be playing a waiting game, hoping that the price (of, for example, Colon) goes down?

WinningUgly!
01-02-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
The list of available pitchers is indeed shrinking as time goes by, but so does the list of teams that is looking at them. Any thoughts as to what is happening to the price? In other words, could KW simply be playing a waiting game, hoping that the price (of, for example, Colon) goes down?

If he's not gonna work a deal for a Colon/Pettitte caliber starter, he might as well just keep on hibernating.

Lip Man 1
01-02-2003, 10:56 PM
Daal will help the O's, Veres will help the Cubs.

Lip

MarkEdward
01-03-2003, 12:54 AM
1. Daal isn't anything special. He won't be much better than Rauch or Biddle.

2. Veres is a nice little pick-up, but was signed for way too much.

3. Levine is a steal if he can get back to his 2001 numbers.

jeremyb1
01-03-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
1. Daal isn't anything special. He won't be much better than Rauch or Biddle.

2. Veres is a nice little pick-up, but was signed for way too much.

3. Levine is a steal if he can get back to his 2001 numbers.

i think again this organization underestimates the pr value of a small signing. our bullpen is pretty good but we're certainly not in a situation where a pitcher like veres, timlin, mendoza, etc. would've been of no value to us. also, just one small free agent signing in an offseason where including minor league contracts the cubs have signed at least 5 or 6 players and teams like the red sox have signed even more, a mediocre pitcher for the pen could do something for pr. this looks really bad. we cut over ten million in payroll and there are more free agents than most seasons because of all the non-tendered players and we can even sign one minor player.

kermittheefrog
01-03-2003, 01:36 AM
The A's and Red Sox have done a ton to improve their pens through the Rule 5 draft, minor trades and free agent signings. Oh yeah I forgot, we aren't run by smart people.

WhiteSoxWinner
01-03-2003, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
also, just one small free agent signing in an offseason where including minor league contracts the cubs have signed at least 5 or 6 players and teams like the red sox have signed even more, a mediocre pitcher for the pen could do something for pr. this looks really bad. we cut over ten million in payroll and there are more free agents than most seasons because of all the non-tendered players and we can even sign one minor player.

Jeremy, I could not agree with you more. I would like to note that I think we are seeing the new White Sox trend. Shue's trend was to sign a guy coming off a major injury and hope he did well, a la Darrin Jackson, Ellis Burks, Doug Drabeck. KW's signature, if he follows the trend I am expecting, will be to wait until mid- to late January and sign a free agent on the cheap, a la Kenny Lofton in 2002. Here's to hoping Jeff Suppan and Jose Cruz Jr are available after January 23...

jeremyb1
01-03-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Jeremy, I could not agree with you more. I would like to note that I think we are seeing the new White Sox trend. Shue's trend was to sign a guy coming off a major injury and hope he did well, a la Darrin Jackson, Ellis Burks, Doug Drabeck. KW's signature, if he follows the trend I am expecting, will be to wait until mid- to late January and sign a free agent on the cheap, a la Kenny Lofton in 2002. Here's to hoping Jeff Suppan and Jose Cruz Jr are available after January 23...

i would have liked to sign a big name starter but i don't have a huge problem with the strategy of waiting in this market. due to the non-tenders there should've been a lot of guys available for cheap late. however, its starting to get somewhat late and i'm concerned we're missing out. i think valdes will be really cheap and will be a great sign if he can stay healthy but i think we're going to miss out. same probably goes for suppan and paul wilson. if kw really thinks that at this point rauch and biddle can outperform guys like wilson and suppan i can handle that but why not upgrade the pen? as much as i like guys like almonte i don't think you can beat an established guy like ligtenburg.

hold2dibber
01-03-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i think valdes will be really cheap and will be a great sign if he can stay healthy but i think we're going to miss out. same probably goes for suppan and paul wilson. if kw really thinks that at this point rauch and biddle can outperform guys like wilson and suppan i can handle that but why not upgrade the pen? as much as i like guys like almonte i don't think you can beat an established guy like ligtenburg.

The problem, as I see it, with standing pat with the current rotation (Buehrle, Garland, Wright, Rauch and Biddle) is that the Sox have no decent back-up plan if one or more of those guys fail or get hurt. I mean, I saw a lot that I liked out of Danny Wright last season, and I wouldn't be shocked if he won 14 or 15 games this year with an ERA between 4.0 and 4.5. On the other hand, I also wouldn't be shocked if he didn't improve or even regressed and has a 5.25 ERA at the all-star break. Same goes with Rauch and Biddle. If one of those guys fails or one of the starters gets hurt, then what the hell do the Sox do? Glover seems to me to be the ONLY other option available in the organization, and he clearly is more effective as a reliever than as a starter. They need to add another starting pitcher just to have a little depth in case things don't go according to plan (because things NEVER go according to plan). A swing guy like Mendoza or Daal would have been perfect, because those guys can start or pitch out of the pen.

TornLabrum
01-03-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Jeremy, I could not agree with you more. I would like to note that I think we are seeing the new White Sox trend. Shue's trend was to sign a guy coming off a major injury and hope he did well, a la Darrin Jackson, Ellis Burks, Doug Drabeck. KW's signature, if he follows the trend I am expecting, will be to wait until mid- to late January and sign a free agent on the cheap, a la Kenny Lofton in 2002. Here's to hoping Jeff Suppan and Jose Cruz Jr are available after January 23...

One thing to keep in mind: SoxFest starts Jan. 31. The Sox just love to announce signings right before that in an effort to boost attendance.

kermittheefrog
01-03-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The problem, as I see it, with standing pat with the current rotation (Buehrle, Garland, Wright, Rauch and Biddle) is that the Sox have no decent back-up plan if one or more of those guys fail or get hurt. I mean, I saw a lot that I liked out of Danny Wright last season, and I wouldn't be shocked if he won 14 or 15 games this year with an ERA between 4.0 and 4.5. On the other hand, I also wouldn't be shocked if he didn't improve or even regressed and has a 5.25 ERA at the all-star break. Same goes with Rauch and Biddle. If one of those guys fails or one of the starters gets hurt, then what the hell do the Sox do? Glover seems to me to be the ONLY other option available in the organization, and he clearly is more effective as a reliever than as a starter. They need to add another starting pitcher just to have a little depth in case things don't go according to plan (because things NEVER go according to plan). A swing guy like Mendoza or Daal would have been perfect, because those guys can start or pitch out of the pen.

Thats a great point dude and I hadn't even thought about it. We don't have a backup plan if one of these guys goes down. Glover isn't really a capable starter. No one in our minor league system is close to the majors. Josh Stewart is overrated because he pitched well in the AFL and Corwin Malone walked as many batters as he struck out last year. Taking this into consideration I'd be really surprised if we don't sign anyone.

TornLabrum
01-03-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Thats a great point dude and I hadn't even thought about it. We don't have a backup plan if one of these guys goes down. Glover isn't really a capable starter. No one in our minor league system is close to the majors. Josh Stewart is overrated because he pitched well in the AFL and Corwin Malone walked as many batters as he struck out last year. Taking this into consideration I'd be really surprised if we don't sign anyone.

:KW

"Well, let's see. That was Plan B, so I guess we'll just have to come up with Plan C."

longshot7
01-03-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by daver
I think I am on record somewhere as saying the Sox would do nothing this offseason,KW has yet to prove me wrong,though I would really like to be proven wrong at any time now.............

umm......Billy Koch?

doublem23
01-03-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
umm......Billy Koch?

The Foulke/Koch deal does essentially nothing to improve the team (and that's being nice).

hold2dibber
01-03-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
umm......Billy Koch?

And don't forget the exciting re-signing of Sandy Alomar Jr.!!!! I wonder how many new season tickets they sold the day after that blockbuster was announced!

Lip Man 1
01-03-2003, 12:10 PM
Some of you were discussing the very real possibility (ne probability) of one of the Sox starters getting hurt or being awful and having no back up plan.

That's already happened folks.....remember the times last season when reporters asked Manager Gandhi why Gary Glover was still in the rotation (even though he was getting his brains beat in) and why Todd Ritchie was still in the rotation (ditto Glover) and all Gandhi could say was 'we don't really have any options...'

I remember seeing that quote at least three times. Funny our intrepid GM never seemed to be around when that question was being asked.

Simply put the Sox once again are hoping things go well for the starters....if not once again the team (and fans) are screwed (although who do you think the owner will blame? the GM or the fans?)

Lip

RKMeibalane
01-03-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
umm......Billy Koch?

I think daver is referring to the Sox finding another starting pitcher. Koch was traded for Keith Foulke, so nothing really changed in the Sox bullpen, as one closer was exchanged for another. The starting rotation is a work in progress, and it will continue to be so as long as Williams does nothing.

Blueprint1
01-03-2003, 01:52 PM
So who do you want Kenny to sign. Looks to me like another complaint for the sake of complaining

34 Inch Stick
01-03-2003, 03:15 PM
Yeah! Complain, complain, complain. Sure the most glaring need during this offseason was a veteran, top of the order, starting pitcher. But what does Maddux, Glavine or Clemens have that Wright, Rauch or Biddle don't have.

It's understandable because any of those additions would have eaten away the $10 million that we have saved in roster cutting over last year. Then what would ownership have had to light cigar's with. They would have only been able to support themselves on increased revenue due to the All Star game and luxury penalties against the Yankees.

Nothing but complainers in Comiskey.

jeremyb1
01-03-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The problem, as I see it, with standing pat with the current rotation (Buehrle, Garland, Wright, Rauch and Biddle) is that the Sox have no decent back-up plan if one or more of those guys fail or get hurt. I mean, I saw a lot that I liked out of Danny Wright last season, and I wouldn't be shocked if he won 14 or 15 games this year with an ERA between 4.0 and 4.5. On the other hand, I also wouldn't be shocked if he didn't improve or even regressed and has a 5.25 ERA at the all-star break. Same goes with Rauch and Biddle. If one of those guys fails or one of the starters gets hurt, then what the hell do the Sox do? Glover seems to me to be the ONLY other option available in the organization, and he clearly is more effective as a reliever than as a starter. They need to add another starting pitcher just to have a little depth in case things don't go according to plan (because things NEVER go according to plan). A swing guy like Mendoza or Daal would have been perfect, because those guys can start or pitch out of the pen.

definately. you're absolutely right. i don't know exactly how we work around that. i don't know if anyone like suppan would be willing to sign without a guarantee that he'd start. it just doesn't seem to me like there are that many swingman types around baseball. it would be nice to have some kind of backup plan with biddle's injury history. stewart is probably somewhat overrated probably as kermit said but i think he's a decent possibility. mike morgan is a free agent. hahaha. i don't know. the best plan might be to sign a starter and have biddle as insurance since he's shown he can be effective out of the pen.

jeremyb1
01-03-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Some of you were discussing the very real possibility (ne probability) of one of the Sox starters getting hurt or being awful and having no back up plan.

That's already happened folks.....remember the times last season when reporters asked Manager Gandhi why Gary Glover was still in the rotation (even though he was getting his brains beat in) and why Todd Ritchie was still in the rotation (ditto Glover) and all Gandhi could say was 'we don't really have any options...'

I remember seeing that quote at least three times. Funny our intrepid GM never seemed to be around when that question was being asked.

Simply put the Sox once again are hoping things go well for the starters....if not once again the team (and fans) are screwed (although who do you think the owner will blame? the GM or the fans?)


there are certainly more dependable rotations around but i don't think its fair to say we're in the same situation we were in last year. last year we had the most inexperienced rotation in baseball. our fifth starter wasn't recovered from a serious injury and had never threw a pitch in the majors before. this season we're one of only 8 teams in baseball i think it was according to phil rogers that has three pitchers who started 30 games with 180 innings pitched. biddle now has 229 career innings under his belt. yes, injury is a concern with him but i think its been blown slightly out of proportion. rauch pitched well down the stretch and is healthy. there are certainly question marks but its not the same as last year.

wulfy
01-03-2003, 04:47 PM
This is truly the nuclear winter of Chicago sports. Every team in this town sucks with little desire or ability to get better. And on top of this, we get to be subjected to the Sammy #500 media blitz to start the season. (Make mental note to myself to go on vacation opening week .....)

34 Inch Stick
01-03-2003, 05:35 PM
Don't go on vacation. It is going to be great to watch Sammy swinging from the heels for the first week of the season to get 500. He will K at least once a game and the Cubs will start out 0-7. He will be so proud of his accomplishment in week 2. Meanwhile the Cubs will be on their way to another 90 loss season.

tbradDPC
01-03-2003, 06:13 PM
The thing about this off-season that strikes me is that in the past one could at least defend Kenny from the standpoint that his heart was always in the right place. He always tried to bring in players that filled apparent weaknesses in the team (Royce, Wells, Ritchie, and Lofton). Granted all of these deals blew up in his face, but this season it just seems like he's given up. There is still time to sign someone...but I am kind of shocked by KW's total unresponsiveness when dealing with finding a starter. I think the wheels may have officially come off the Kenny Williams Experience.

hold2dibber
01-03-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by tbradDPC
The thing about this off-season that strikes me is that in the past one could at least defend Kenny from the standpoint that his heart was always in the right place. He always tried to bring in players that filled apparent weaknesses in the team (Royce, Wells, Ritchie, and Lofton). Granted all of these deals blew up in his face, but this season it just seems like he's given up. There is still time to sign someone...but I am kind of shocked by KW's total unresponsiveness when dealing with finding a starter. I think the wheels may have officially come off the Kenny Williams Experience.

I suppose one might argue that no deal is better than a bad deal. But wouldn't it be nice to actually have team management hell bent on improving the team? Hard to even imagine for us Sox fans.

jeremyb1
01-03-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by tbradDPC
The thing about this off-season that strikes me is that in the past one could at least defend Kenny from the standpoint that his heart was always in the right place. He always tried to bring in players that filled apparent weaknesses in the team (Royce, Wells, Ritchie, and Lofton). Granted all of these deals blew up in his face, but this season it just seems like he's given up. There is still time to sign someone...but I am kind of shocked by KW's total unresponsiveness when dealing with finding a starter. I think the wheels may have officially come off the Kenny Williams Experience.

i couldn't care less about kenny's heart being in the right place. all i care about is the product on the field. if kenny refraining from making deals means we're not losing good young players for worthless veterans that will destroy team chemistry i'm pleased regardless of whether or not the man has good intentions.

MarkEdward
01-03-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by wulfy
This is truly the nuclear winter of Chicago sports. Every team in this town sucks with little desire or ability to get better.

Yeah, those Blackhawks downright suck this year. I mean, they're not in the playoff hunt or on a seven-game undefeated streak or anything like that. It's not like they have the best rookie or goaltender in the game. Oh wait, they do: Arnason and Thibault.

And Sox fans complain about not getting any coverage. Last night, the Hawks beat rival St. Louis 4-1. Front page of Sun Times Sports? A meaningless Bulls game.

wulfy
01-03-2003, 07:12 PM
I believe that Dave Wannstedt's heart was in the right place when running the Bears ... however that didn't make him less inept.

You watch every other team making moves trying to fix thier weaknesses - even the frickin' Cubs are improving that train wreck of a bullpen, yet we've essentially done nothing this offseason. Billy Koch for Keith Foulke is a lateral move - Foulke isn't as bad as he looked last year and Koch isn't as good.

We are in an extremely winnable division, yet we are essentially standing pat this offseason with the hopes that everyone else will get a little worse. I feel like we are being punished as Sox fans because of the attendance issue. Yet this management takes a bunker mentality of instead of aggresively pursuing new fans (why they haven't marketed to the very large Hispanic population, especially with players like Carlos Lee, Maggs and Jimenez on the roster, I'll never know), they choose to alienate the few they have left. This wasn't always a Cubs town, JR made it a Cubs town.

Very frustrating .....

tbradDPC
01-03-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i couldn't care less about kenny's heart being in the right place. all i care about is the product on the field. if kenny refraining from making deals means we're not losing good young players for worthless veterans that will destroy team chemistry i'm pleased regardless of whether or not the man has good intentions.


I agree that no move is far better than giving away prospects for aging veterans...I like our team for next year. I just wanted to point out that it is totally different this year. There were some decent pitchers available this for a reasonable price, but white sox management gave the impression that they weren't even trying to go after anyone.

My overall point was to say that KW is no longer defensible on any level. Going into last season he still had a few supporters who contended that all his moves were truly meant to improve the team and didn't appear to be horrible ideas at the time the deal was made. It seems like ever since the Ritchie trade went bad, KW has become more and more of a joke...too bad the joke is at the expense of sox fans

jeremyb1
01-03-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by tbradDPC
I agree that no move is far better than giving away prospects for aging veterans...I like our team for next year. I just wanted to point out that it is totally different this year. There were some decent pitchers available this for a reasonable price, but white sox management gave the impression that they weren't even trying to go after anyone.

My overall point was to say that KW is no longer defensible on any level. Going into last season he still had a few supporters who contended that all his moves were truly meant to improve the team and didn't appear to be horrible ideas at the time the deal was made. It seems like ever since the Ritchie trade went bad, KW has become more and more of a joke...too bad the joke is at the expense of sox fans

this is all true.

TornLabrum
01-03-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yeah, those Blackhawks downright suck this year. I mean, they're not in the playoff hunt or on a seven-game undefeated streak or anything like that. It's not like they have the best rookie or goaltender in the game. Oh wait, they do: Arnason and Thibault.

And Sox fans complain about not getting any coverage. Last night, the Hawks beat rival St. Louis 4-1. Front page of Sun Times Sports? A meaningless Bulls game.

But Michael was back in town!!!!! Which reminds me...when are the press and fans in this town going to figure out that he's in freakin' Washington, and he's not coming back and we might as well just get over him!

Lip Man 1
01-04-2003, 01:00 AM
Mark says:

Yeah, those Blackhawks downright suck this year. I mean, they're not in the playoff hunt or on a seven-game undefeated streak or anything like that.

Mark...not to rain on your parade (I'm a Hawks fan myself and remember when the franchise truly was great in the late 60's, early 70's) but the Hawks have as much chance this season of getting to play in the Stanley Cup Finals as the Sox do getting into a World Series...that is slim and none.

White Sox-86 years (and counting...)
Blackhawks-41 years (and counting...)

Lip