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idseer
01-02-2003, 11:09 AM
there have been a few threads here lately dealing with the thrown series in '19 and the sox inability to win anything in almost 90 years. yesterday i watched a program on the 'animal planet' about the future evolution of life on earth and it made me think about what may have happened had 1919 never happened (i've always been a fan of fiction/fantasy). are 1919's effects still being felt today? had the sox gone on and won that series would a dynasty have ensued that would have changed how things went thru the 20's and 30's? how might the landscape look today?
there're a lot of good minds that post here and i'm hoping some have some ideas on the subject. in fact, perhaps an book idea for the writers in the group?

voodoochile
01-02-2003, 11:31 AM
Wasn't that also the year those other Sox sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees? Me thinks not much would have changed...

duke of dorwood
01-02-2003, 11:43 AM
It wouldnt have changed-the 1919 Series did not effect ownership-thus it leads to the situation we are in now.

Iwritecode
01-02-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
It wouldnt have changed-the 1919 Series did not effect ownership-thus it leads to the situation we are in now.

Yea, even if the players weren't banned from baseball they probably would have just ended up as Yankees eventually anyway...

Lip Man 1
01-02-2003, 12:19 PM
It was either Rich Lindberg or Eliot Asinov who tackled the "what if" question in one of their books.

He basically says that Judge Landis destroying the White Sox club eliminated the ONLY team that could have taken on and derailed the Ruth / Yankee dynasty.

He makes a good point when he says the new baseball was introduced in 1920 specifically to increase offense, thus setting the stage for Ruth etc. It was done to take the fans minds off the scandle.

If the Sox weren't broken up, it's possible the new ball would not have been introduced (at least not right then) therefore Ruth and the Yankees would have been defused by the "dead" ball. That dead ball played right into the hands of the pre 1920 Sox...pitching, speed, defense.

It's an interesting theory.

Lip

Blueprint1
01-02-2003, 01:34 PM
Hmmm baseball is in trouble in 1919 all of a sudden Babe Ruth is in New York the nations largest city and the Yankees become a real team. if any of you don't believe that the Yankees all of a sudden becoming great right when baseball was in trouble just happend by chance I think you better think again. I think that baseball may have been lost forever and they knew it. Baseball took Ruth and made him great to save the game. I am not saying that Ruth was not a great player BUT baseball needed something to save the game.

TornLabrum
01-02-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
Hmmm baseball is in trouble in 1919 all of a sudden Babe Ruth is in New York the nations largest city and the Yankees become a real team. if any of you don't believe that the Yankees all of a sudden becoming great right when baseball was in trouble just happend by chance I think you better think again. I think that baseball may have been lost forever and they knew it. Baseball took Ruth and made him great to save the game. I am not saying that Ruth was not a great player BUT baseball needed something to save the game.

I like conspiracy theories as much as the next man, but the truth is far simpler. Ruth was a pain in the ass and Harry Frazee had had it with him. He expected players to take orders from him, and Ruth wasn't about to, even going so far as to go AWOL on various occasions. Frazee made his deal with the Yankees because he saw it as a way to get rid of his biggest problem and make a tidy little profit on the side.

BTW, there was a pretty good program about just that situation on the History Channel a couple of weeks ago. About the only thing it didn't cover was the deal Frazee almost made with Comiskey for Ruth.

DVG
01-02-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
It was either Rich Lindberg or Eliot Asinov who tackled the "what if" question in one of their books.

He basically says that Judge Landis destroying the White Sox club eliminated the ONLY team that could have taken on and derailed the Ruth / Yankee dynasty.

He makes a good point when he says the new baseball was introduced in 1920 specifically to increase offense, thus setting the stage for Ruth etc. It was done to take the fans minds off the scandle.

If the Sox weren't broken up, it's possible the new ball would not have been introduced (at least not right then) therefore Ruth and the Yankees would have been defused by the "dead" ball. That dead ball played right into the hands of the pre 1920 Sox...pitching, speed, defense.

It's an interesting theory.

Lip

I don't get this. The scandal did not become public knowledge
until the end of the 1920 season. By then, Ruth had already
racked up 54 home runs. So how can it be that the lively ball
was "introduced...to take fans mind off..." etc. No one knew about it then.

Dadawg_77
01-02-2003, 03:23 PM
Hey if that happens, maybe the Sox last title would have been in 1925 instead of 1917.

TornLabrum
01-02-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by DVG
I don't get this. The scandal did not become public knowledge
until the end of the 1920 season. By then, Ruth had already
racked up 54 home runs. So how can it be that the lively ball
was "introduced...to take fans mind off..." etc. No one knew about it then.

It's one of those things that has gained mythic status despite the facts, similar to Landis being appointed Commissioner as a result of the miserable handling of the scandal by the National Commission.

The actual reason Landis was approached in the first place had nothing to do with the 1919 World Series. It was actually in the aftermath of the Sox and Yankees both signing a pitcher, whose name escapes me. As I recall the facts (but could be way off base here), Comiskey signed the guy first, but then the Yankees made him a better deal, so he signed with them. AL President Ban Johnson, who had been feuding with Comiskey for over a decade, ruled in favor of the Yankees. Comiskey was furious.

At that point Comiskey joined an alliance with a group of disaffected team owners from both leagues to form a new league. (One reason many of the NL owners was involved was that one of the Commissioners was Garry Herrmanson <sp> the owner of the Cincinnati Reds, and they felt that rulings in favor of the Reds were getting out of hand.) Cooler heads prevailed, though and Landis was offered as a compromise. He was that white-haired guy at all the Sox games. He'd let the Federal League lawsuit languish until there was no need for it. He was the perfect flunky...or so they thought.