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lowesox
12-28-2002, 05:36 PM
Even KW is smart enough to know that he needs to bring a veteran arm, if only for insurance sake. So, in case he reads these boards, I say everybody posts who they'd like to pickup. Here are some of the options I think are around:

Scott Elarton, Robert Person, Ramiro Mendoza, Bartolo Colon (but let's keep in mind KW would give up half the organization with his trading skills), Omar Daal, one of the yankees (I could see Hitchcock or even Pettite being available), John Lieber, or somebody I'm not thinking of...

I, personally, would love to see Mendoza. Only because he can start and relieve and since the Sox pitching staff is so undefined that versatility is really valuable. Plus he's got playoff experience AND he's cheap.

OEO Magglio
12-28-2002, 06:29 PM
Well obviously I would like to see Colon on the south side, but i know that's not going to happen, the other three I like are Person, Daal, and Valdes, I would like for the sox to pick up one of them.

RedPinStripes
12-29-2002, 02:12 AM
I would take a chance on Lieber . Eventhough he cant pitch till at least August. That guy knows how to pitch!

jeremyb1
12-29-2002, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Even KW is smart enough to know that he needs to bring a veteran arm, if only for insurance sake. So, in case he reads these boards, I say everybody posts who they'd like to pickup. Here are some of the options I think are around:

Scott Elarton, Robert Person, Ramiro Mendoza, Bartolo Colon (but let's keep in mind KW would give up half the organization with his trading skills), Omar Daal, one of the yankees (I could see Hitchcock or even Pettite being available), John Lieber, or somebody I'm not thinking of...

I, personally, would love to see Mendoza. Only because he can start and relieve and since the Sox pitching staff is so undefined that versatility is really valuable. Plus he's got playoff experience AND he's cheap.

i agree that a swingman type might be nice in case rauch and biddle both look too good to keep out of the rotation in spring training. as far as that goes daal or mendoza are the obvious choices. as far as free agent starters go in general, i'd put valdes at the top of the list at this point followed by paul wilson.

Lip Man 1
12-29-2002, 01:33 PM
Paul Sullivan reported that he already asked Williams about Mendoza and was told that "he wants too much money..."

Lip

pudge
12-29-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Even KW is smart enough to know that he needs to bring a veteran arm, if only for insurance sake. So, in case he reads these boards, I say everybody posts who they'd like to pickup. Here are some of the options I think are around:

Scott Elarton, Robert Person, Ramiro Mendoza, Bartolo Colon (but let's keep in mind KW would give up half the organization with his trading skills), Omar Daal, one of the yankees (I could see Hitchcock or even Pettite being available), John Lieber, or somebody I'm not thinking of...

I, personally, would love to see Mendoza. Only because he can start and relieve and since the Sox pitching staff is so undefined that versatility is really valuable. Plus he's got playoff experience AND he's cheap.

Your first pick, Elarton, is already gone. I like Daal, but honestly I think Halama from the Mariners could *potentially* post similar numbers if given a full season as a starter, and at a much cheaper price.

duke of dorwood
12-29-2002, 03:50 PM
I want Lieber, and never say KW is "smart enough" until he proves it.

lowesox
12-30-2002, 09:19 PM
I like Lieber too. Weren't we spoiled when Schueler was running things? I always agreed with his decisions, and while he was wrong sometimes, he was usually right. For me, Lieber is a Schueler-type pickup. A guy who has a low current degree of value, and a high ceiling.

Now that Mendoza's gone, that's who I want.

Daver
12-30-2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Weren't we spoiled when Schueler was running things?

Yeah we were,now we have no one in the front office that is going to draft his own daughter,or base his reputation on the draft picks of the previous regime while he does nothing but draft poorly to the point that he has the draft taken away from him.I definitely miss Schu.........

Tragg
12-31-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Weren't we spoiled when Schueler was running things? I.

Oh yes, I get teary eyed when I think of that scheuler trade/free agent dream team of Jorge Bell, Cory Snyder, STeve Sax, Kirk McKaskill and, most of all, Jaime Navarro.

lowesox
12-31-2002, 04:08 AM
Every GM is going to make mistakes. The difference is Schueler made more right moves than he did bad ones. Any potential that exists in the current whitesox team (accept one player: Marte) came during Schueler's tenure.

Schueler had the ability to fleece another GM in a trade. Williams, on the other hand ALWAYS gets fleeced. He has only made one strong acquisition and he's in his third year on the job.

jeremyb1
12-31-2002, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Every GM is going to make mistakes. The difference is Schueler made more right moves than he did bad ones. Any potential that exists in the current whitesox team (accept one player: Marte) came during Schueler's tenure.

Schueler had the ability to fleece another GM in a trade. Williams, on the other hand ALWAYS gets fleeced. He has only made one strong acquisition and he's in his third year on the job.

amen. i'm glad to see some praise for schu around here. everyone's talking playoffs while simultaneously bashing schu in some cases which makes no sense considering the fact that he's responsible for any success we'll have next season.

34 Inch Stick
12-31-2002, 10:08 AM
The pitchers I want in order are Maddux, Glavine, Millwood or in a worse case scenario Byrd. Ooops. Well at least we can debate on the ability of a Jeff Suppan.

Tragg
12-31-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Every GM is going to make mistakes. The difference is Schueler made more right moves than he did bad ones. Any potential that exists in the current whitesox team (accept one player: Marte) came during Schueler's tenure.

Schueler had the ability to fleece another GM in a trade. Williams, on the other hand ALWAYS gets fleeced. He has only made one strong acquisition and he's in his third year on the job.

Like what? I can think of the brewer trade and the garland/karchner trade. I can't remember one big trade in which he go

lowesox
12-31-2002, 12:30 PM
There are some people who will bash a GM unless he wins his team a world series. Schueler and co. decided to reshape the team with the Whiteflag trade and rebuilt really quickly. Most teams take years (look at KC for instance) the WhiteSox did it quickly. Usually he didn't fleece other GMs. You're not supposed to or else nobody will want to trade with you. He did make lots of smart trades. Usually, when he dealt it made the team better.

Schueler gave KW a winning team. All Williams had to do was a minor tinker here and there. Instead, he decided he wanted to put his personal stamp on (so that he could take credit - because lets face it he's not only stupid, he's arrogant). And ever since then there's been a slow degeneration.

soxtalker
12-31-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
There are some people who will bash a GM unless he wins his team a world series. Schueler and co. decided to reshape the team with the Whiteflag trade and rebuilt really quickly. Most teams take years (look at KC for instance) the WhiteSox did it quickly. Usually he didn't fleece other GMs. You're not supposed to or else nobody will want to trade with you. He did make lots of smart trades. Usually, when he dealt it made the team better.

Schueler gave KW a winning team. All Williams had to do was a minor tinker here and there. Instead, he decided he wanted to put his personal stamp on (so that he could take credit - because lets face it he's not only stupid, he's arrogant). And ever since then there's been a slow degeneration.

I certainly have no love for KW and have at times yearned for the "good old days" of Schueler. However, that's probably due, in part, to a tendency to forget Schu's early years and my disdain for KW's arrogant personality. When I think back, I remember that Schu made some awful trades early in his tenure. His worst trades or FA signings were for big name players. His better trades were for the fringe (but important -- e.g., Eldred) players. I get the sense that KW is starting to do the same.

lowesox
12-31-2002, 04:03 PM
I'll admit that I wasn't really paying much attention to the WhiteSox or Ron Schueler when he first became a GM. I think though, that a GM should be able to step in and be immediately effective (see JP Ricciardi in Toronto).

I'd love it if KW did start making those lower impact fringe trades and I really think that's all the Sox should be doing anyways. But I don't think he's shown any indication of heading that direction. He should though considering his one and only good move (the Marte trade) was that type of transaction.

His ego is far too big so I fully expect for him to continue getting outdealt by all the smarter GMs (I really think that we have the single worst win in baseball). The Clayton trade, the David Wells trade, the Todd Ritchie trade, the Durham and Baldwin trades. Everytime they make a move its a wash. We really need somebody else. Hell lets bring Schue back!!!

Daver
12-31-2002, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
We really need somebody else. Hell lets bring Schue back!!!

Yeah why not,he probably has another daughter he can waste a draft pick on.

soxtalker
12-31-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by daver
Yeah why not,he probably has another daughter he can waste a draft pick on.

As I said earlier, many of KW's moves plus his arrogant personality made me wish for the "good old days" of Schu. But there have been enough postings that reminded/convinced me that he left much to be desired. So, I'd prefer someone completely different.

I'm curious -- did picking his daughter cause us to miss out on someone else or was it at such a low round that we would have passed anyway?

Daver
12-31-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


I'm curious -- did picking his daughter cause us to miss out on someone else or was it at such a low round that we would have passed anyway?

It was a very late round pick,but keep in mind Mark Beurhle was a very late round pick............

TornLabrum
12-31-2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by daver
It was a very late round pick,but keep in mind Mark Beurhle was a very late round pick............

It was as late a round as you can get, the very last round (something like 42nd or 43rd).

Daver
12-31-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
It was as late a round as you can get, the very last round (something like 42nd or 43rd).

And Beuhrle was drafted in the 38th,my point remains it was a wasted pick.

At least when John Schurhoelz drafted his kid it was because the kid has major league potential,Schue's was a mere act of self indulgence.

Lip Man 1
12-31-2002, 08:39 PM
I read about Schueler's "daughter pick" in SI a few years back and I think the story said that immediately after the Sox chose Schueler's daughter, the next club took Frank Cantolonetta (sorry about the spelling, all I know is that the guy wound up playing 2nd base in the bigs for both the Rangers and A's...)

Lip

TornLabrum
12-31-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by daver
And Beuhrle was drafted in the 38th,my point remains it was a wasted pick.

At least when John Schurhoelz drafted his kid it was because the kid has major league potential,Schue's was a mere act of self indulgence.

Oh, I agree it was a stupid choice, and I'm not contradicting you at all. I was just clarifying how late the pick was. It still pisses me off whenever I think about it.

mrwag
12-31-2002, 09:24 PM
Larry Himes is the guy who (helped) build the club to the success of the 90's (Frank, Alex Fernandez, Bere, Ventura, etc...). All Schu did was slowly tear it apart, with JR's help of course. Let's face it - 2000 was a fluke. That's the only success Schu can claim.

Daver
12-31-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Oh, I agree it was a stupid choice, and I'm not contradicting you at all. I was just clarifying how late the pick was. It still pisses me off whenever I think about it.

Glad I'm not the only one that is pissed about this.

BTW good column Hal.

jeremyb1
12-31-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by mrwag
Larry Himes is the guy who (helped) build the club to the success of the 90's (Frank, Alex Fernandez, Bere, Ventura, etc...). All Schu did was slowly tear it apart, with JR's help of course. Let's face it - 2000 was a fluke. That's the only success Schu can claim.

its hard to simply claim 95 wins is a fluke. if you win the world series by a fluke what does that matter. you still won. we still won 95 games in '00. regardless i don't hear anyone arguing that we have a poor team now. schu gets credit for players like garland, buehrle, maggs, konerko, carlos, crede, and so on. we have some damn good young talent and schu is responsible for almost all of it.

on the issue of schu's daughter it may have been a dumb move but the reality is that nearly all late round picks amount to absolutely nothing. sure there are always a few guys that emerge from there but when you think about it 5 or 10 guys in the majors from round 30-42 multiplied times 28 teams, times about ten years, your odds of drafting a good player there are probably lesser than being struck by lightening.

TornLabrum
01-01-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by daver
Glad I'm not the only one that is pissed about this.

BTW good column Hal.

Thanks.

Originally posted by jeremyb1
on the issue of schu's daughter it may have been a dumb move but the reality is that nearly all late round picks amount to absolutely nothing. sure there are always a few guys that emerge from there but when you think about it 5 or 10 guys in the majors from round 30-42 multiplied times 28 teams, times about ten years, your odds of drafting a good player there are probably lesser than being struck by lightening.

On the other hand, apparently someone was available who Clueless Schu could have drafted who did make the major leagues. Couple that and all the times he tried to "capture lightning in a bottle," particularly in right field and for fifth starters during his entire tenure with the Sox, and I don't really think one can in any way justify the absolutely stupid move of drafting his daughter.

BTW, she was a pretty good softball pitcher as I recall. Yee-haw!

jeremyb1
01-01-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Thanks.



On the other hand, apparently someone was available who Clueless Schu could have drafted who did make the major leagues. Couple that and all the times he tried to "capture lightning in a bottle," particularly in right field and for fifth starters during his entire tenure with the Sox, and I don't really think one can in any way justify the absolutely stupid move of drafting his daughter.

BTW, she was a pretty good softball pitcher as I recall. Yee-haw!

there's no reason to believe he would've drafted catalanato. and what if he did? would a good utility player really have made a huge difference? i agree it wasn't a good move in principle but the odds of it making any difference are incredibly slim.

TornLabrum
01-01-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
there's no reason to believe he would've drafted catalanato. and what if he did? would a good utility player really have made a huge difference? i agree it wasn't a good move in principle but the odds of it making any difference are incredibly slim.

However, you never know when some player drafted in the later rounds will develop into a major-league quality player. Sometimes something happens that the scouts don't see. The point is, that on rare occasions someone does "catch lightning in a bottle," a phrase Clueless Schu was fond of using, and find a player. Sometimes the scouts are just plain wrong (see Piazza, Mike, undrafted).

The point is you can at least use the draft to stock your farm system. So any player who can actually play somewhere is better than a wasted pick...unless you're trying to save a salary for a low minor leaguer.

Lip Man 1
01-01-2003, 02:04 PM
Jeremy says (with the youthful enthusiasm that is only his):

"Its hard to simply claim 95 wins is a fluke."

Ummmm yes it is, let's look at the "numbers" (Jeremy's favorite subject)

1998 80 wins
1999 80 wins
2000 95 wins
2001 83 wins
2002 81 wins

2000 sticks out like a sore thumb doesn't it? It looks like a fluke to me especially when you don't come close to that figure either in the years before or the years after.

As for the discussion on Jumbotron Ron, in my opinion his best deal was his very first one Christmas Eve 1990 getting Tim Raines from Montreal for Barry Jones. In the years after.....eh. He had some success but in my opinion more faliures (trading Sammy Sosa, acquiring Steve Sax, trading Jack McDowell for Lyle Mouton)

He never did get the Sox to "point C" did he? and who could forget "Roger Clemens is over the hill..." He also hasn't been able to land a job back in baseball since he got out, which says something.

Overall he was a perfect GM for Uncle Jerry. He did what he was told, blamed others for his problems and held the line on the budget.

Lip

TornLabrum
01-01-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1 [Overall he was a perfect GM for Uncle Jerry. He did what he was told, blamed others for his problems and held the line on the budget.[/B]

Can't you just see that on his resume'?

hold2dibber
01-02-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says (with the youthful enthusiasm that is only his):

"Its hard to simply claim 95 wins is a fluke."

Ummmm yes it is, let's look at the "numbers" (Jeremy's favorite subject)

1998 80 wins
1999 80 wins
2000 95 wins
2001 83 wins
2002 81 wins

2000 sticks out like a sore thumb doesn't it? It looks like a fluke to me especially when you don't come close to that figure either in the years before or the years after.


I agree that '00 was pretty much a fluke. To a large extent, the Sox' success that year was based upon career years by their starting pitchers, particularly Baldwin and Eldred, but also Sirotka and Parque. The position players have remained largely unchanged (except for 3B, CF and C) in the interim. If KW had been able to exchange some of the "can't miss kids" into quality starting pitching (instead of Todd Ritchie, Onan Masoaka (?), Royce Clayton, David Wells, etc.) the Sox could be a legit contender now.

hold2dibber
01-02-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Even KW is smart enough to know that he needs to bring a veteran arm, if only for insurance sake. So, in case he reads these boards, I say everybody posts who they'd like to pickup. Here are some of the options I think are around:

Scott Elarton, Robert Person, Ramiro Mendoza, Bartolo Colon (but let's keep in mind KW would give up half the organization with his trading skills), Omar Daal, one of the yankees (I could see Hitchcock or even Pettite being available), John Lieber, or somebody I'm not thinking of...

I, personally, would love to see Mendoza. Only because he can start and relieve and since the Sox pitching staff is so undefined that versatility is really valuable. Plus he's got playoff experience AND he's cheap.

I do think the Sox need to add another arm. I think it would be a big mistake to go into '03 with Rauch and Biddle in the rotation, particularly since the Sox don't have a particularly decent back-up plan if either of those guys fail or if any of the starters get injured (I suppose Glover could go back to starting, but I think that would be a mistake and there doesn't seem to me to be anyone else in the minors who is ready). I think at this point, absent a trade, I think Valdes would be the best pick-up. He's not particularly durable and he's not great, but he is pretty good. I've been touting Daal for a while, but I'm starting to re-think that based upon the problems some mediocre NL pitchers have when they move to the AL. I don't like Person or Suppan. I think Lieber would be a great pick up, but I wouldn't ONLY add him, because I still think the Sox need someone to step into the rotation at the start of the season.

soxguy
01-02-2003, 12:37 PM
ron schueler was famous for one thing, never pulling the trigger on a proposed deal, only to be one upped by lessor clubs AND never making the late season acquisition to get over the hump. Yeah he's great that is why he abandoned our franchise and was shopping his lonely ass on the gm market. He also had some say in the ken williams over dan evans gm decision, why, he probably knew he was leaving so what did he care. At least kenny is trying to make deals every year. Give him credit for that.

TornLabrum
01-02-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by soxguy
ron schueler was famous for one thing, never pulling the trigger on a proposed deal, only to be one upped by lessor clubs AND never making the late season acquisition to get over the hump. Yeah he's great that is why he abandoned our franchise and was shopping his lonely ass on the gm market. He also had some say in the ken williams over dan evans gm decision, why, he probably knew he was leaving so what did he care. At least kenny is trying to make deals every year. Give him credit for that.

And that engineer in Tacoma back in the '30s tried to build a bridge that didn't fall down when the wind picked up.

jeremyb1
01-02-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says (with the youthful enthusiasm that is only his):

"Its hard to simply claim 95 wins is a fluke."

Ummmm yes it is, let's look at the "numbers" (Jeremy's favorite subject)

1998 80 wins
1999 80 wins
2000 95 wins
2001 83 wins
2002 81 wins

2000 sticks out like a sore thumb doesn't it? It looks like a fluke to me especially when you don't come close to that figure either in the years before or the years after.

As for the discussion on Jumbotron Ron, in my opinion his best deal was his very first one Christmas Eve 1990 getting Tim Raines from Montreal for Barry Jones. In the years after.....eh. He had some success but in my opinion more faliures (trading Sammy Sosa, acquiring Steve Sax, trading Jack McDowell for Lyle Mouton)

He never did get the Sox to "point C" did he? and who could forget "Roger Clemens is over the hill..." He also hasn't been able to land a job back in baseball since he got out, which says something.

Overall he was a perfect GM for Uncle Jerry. He did what he was told, blamed others for his problems and held the line on the budget.


two things. my point was that 95 wasn't a fluke in the sense that we played good ball that year. just because we didn't have sustained success doesn't necessarily mean the season was a fluke. i would call a season a fluke when you got lucky a lot and won games. we did have our share of luck but we also hit well and pitched well (in the first half at least). in that sense it was not a fluke because we played well enough to win the games we did.

additionally, one reason we didn't win the next season is because we didn't have the same team. parque was injured, thomas was hurt, baldwin was injured, eldred was hurt, sirotka was on a different team and injured, wusnch was injured, etc. we very well might not have won if we had all the same guys in good health but we don't really know because that didn't happen.