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SoxxoS
12-23-2002, 02:25 PM
Uncle Jerry Reinsdorf owns this team. All of us know that. We know he won't give long term deals to pitchers. We know he is keeping us a small to medium market team in a large city. "I would trade in all 6 Bulls rings for a World Series ring," was a famous quote by Uncle Jerry which we all know is BS. But we are still die-never Sox fans.

My question to you is this-"Do we, as Sox fans, secretly enjoy this type of ownership?" Would you have it any other way? We as fans, and members of this board, are extreme fans. We know about Anthony Webster and Corwin Malone. Stuff a normal fan wouldn't. We go into every season with optimism, and we are fed lines of crap from JR and Prof. Chaos, but we believe it. We might say we don't, but we do. We don't get Greg Maddox, and we KNOW we won't, but we still keep our hopes up. Any rumor is really exciting. You see, if you are a big market team, you see those rumors, and you EXPECT your team to get the free agent. WE DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING.

Wouldn't it be boring to be a Yankees fan? They just buy players, and win that way. They know they are going to the playoffs. We might say that is the way JR should run this team. But are we telling the truth?

We went into last season on a high note, thinking 2000 was NOT a fluke, and 2001 was too injury riddled to be a contender. So 2002 was supposed to be 2000 over again. We figured we had Todd Ritchie. Rauch, Wunsch, Parque, Biddle, Osuna, were going to come back strong. Garland and Wright have the experience to pitch like quality #3 and #4 pitchers. As we know, some of that happened, but most didnt. We always have players in the pipeline to take over for a veteran. Has anyone else noticed that?

Now, we go into 2003. We have Joe Crede, who finally came up and could be a possible all-star. We acquired Koch. Addition by subtraction with the loss of Clayton and Mark Johnson. We have Olivo who we are all dying to see what he can do. Garland and Wright pitched like they can break out and be really good pitchers. Rauch is a year and a half off surgery, and pitched lights out his last couple starts. Add our line-up, we have that chance (there is that cautious optimism) to win the division.

So, don't we just love this cautious optimism? I mean, the Yankees and Phillies can sign big time free agents, but I think we as Sox fans under this regime, we actually love this regime.

MetalliSox
12-23-2002, 02:40 PM
Very good question.

To me, the day the Sox win a World Series...if I am alive...maybe the greatest day of my life. There may be no bigger high. We all suffer through the corporate BS now but it will all be worth it if that day ever comes.
I am still a big Bulls fan, for some reason I have watched them suck the past few years. During the dynasty years, we were good and went rather uncontested, but it was fun to watch. The Finals were always memorable.
Do I enjoy this type of ownership of the Sox? HELL NO! Reinsdorf probably has MORE money the Steinbrenner, yet he won't spend. Players are there for the taking, but he doesn't let the GM's go after them. It becomes frustrating to watch quality players that could contribute go somewhere else, while the Sox wait for them to get over the hill then sign them, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle.
Economically, baseball is different then other sports. Maybe there are things that happen that I don't get.

I still believe the Wirtz are the worst owners in Chicago. Raising ticket prices to $200 a seat after a below .500 year? Unreal.

I think I rambled in this post, but oh well.

Iwritecode
12-23-2002, 02:51 PM
Ya know, I've often wondered about this exact same question. For all the bitching and moaning and complaining we all do, why in the world are we still Sox fans? Is it out of a sense of loyalty? Is it just because most of us grew up in Illinois and decided to pick the lesser of the two evils in Chicago? Is it because of that "unwritten" rule that once you pick a team that you are stuck with them until the end?

Maybe it's because we are all saying "We'll, I've waited this long, what's another few years..." I'm sure a lot of us are young enough to be able to wait it out and the redemption will just feel that much better after all the years of waiting. That is also assuming they finally win the big one within our lifetimes.

Whatever it is, I still can't answer the question. I guess for myself, it just wouldn't feel right to start wearing another team's colors. It's like an old pair of shoes. They are pretty grundy, dirty, full of holes, held together with some duct tape, and have had to be pulled out of the garbage a few times (usually because of an inconsiderate significant other) but dammit they're comfortable and they're mine.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-23-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
....I think I rambled in this post, but oh well.

No need to apologize. When it comes to answering why any of us Sox Fans keep supporting the ballclub, it's perfectly understandable to ramble. In fact, I would expect nothing less!

:)

WhiteSox = Life
12-23-2002, 03:32 PM
The less of two evils is an interesting aspect, but, which of the following is worse?

Having a conglomerate like Tribune, Co. spending upwards of $70 million on a team that sucks? Or is it having a Scrooge of an owner who can spend money (but refuses to for the crappiest of reasons) and makes sure that, barring a few superstars, the rest of the team consists of low-pay players, despite their skills?

If I had to choose with impartiality, I would have to say the Chicago White Sox organization is not the lesser of two evils. Don't look at me like a Cubs fan, because I most definitely am not, but if you don't believe me, think about it and you'll understand exactly what I'm writing.

I think if you took a poll of fans, that you'd find that White Sox fans have the lowest conversion rate, i.e. jumping ships to another team. We all know people that are fans of a baseball team and a few years later, switch. There are some that seem to change allegiances every week. But, White Sox, fans, uh uh, we stick to our guns, and through thick and thin, good and bad, come hell or high-water, we remain fans of the Chicago White Sox.

And, by God, that's just the way we are, and I would have it no other way.

soxnut
12-23-2002, 04:58 PM
:smile: :smile: :smile: I'm glad somebody asked this question, because I was wondering myself. I see all the complaining that is done on here and I wondered " do these guys love to hate this team or do they hate to love it, or are they so passion mad that the're just crazy?" Well, for me, If the Chicago White Sox no longer existed, I doubt I could ever love another, the way I do this team. :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

Paulwny
12-23-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS

Wouldn't it be boring to be a Yankees fan? They just buy players, and win that way. They know they are going to the playoffs. We might say that is the way JR should run this team. But are we telling the truth?
.


Yea, it would be tough to be on this board and actually be SERIOUS about the team resigning Clemens, trading for Colon or Vazquez, out bidding everyone for Contreras, etc; etc; etc.

SIGH

Lip Man 1
12-23-2002, 07:18 PM
I have followed the Sox for the past 42 seasons because I was born and raised in Chicago.

The city and this team are a deep, inherent part of my being. I remember all the good memories of both while growing up. (I was fortunate since I was born in 1955 to have NEVER experienced a losing season until 1968!)

That's why I criticize the organization as much as I do. I know first hand, what this team and organization is capable of doing if they WANT to.

I know first hand how this city responded to the Sox while I was growing up. They did it before and they'll do it again, if only somebody will light the way. Like Vince Lombardi said "winning is the only thing..."

If this or a future organization will embrace that idea and give this city and the loyal fans a reason to hope, to hope for that miracle, to hope of an October when the Bears are shifted to the sports section next to the want ads and not the back page because the Sox are in a World Series, that organization will find themselves making more money then they know what to do with. They'll find fans who will bend over backwards for the organization if they'll just treat them with some respect, admit their past follies and swear to do better.

That's all...just a "mea culpa," would buy Uncle Jerry and his minions some time, some forgiveness and some absolution.

Then if they went out and actively tried to win (like JR has done in some rare circumstances) they would reap the benfits both financially, media wise and publicity wise. It's a no lose proposition, but FIRST they have to make that committment.

Lip

jortafan
12-23-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If this or a future organization will embrace that idea and give this city and the loyal fans a reason to hope, to hope for that miracle, to hope of an October when the Bears are shifted to the sports section next to the want ads and not the back page because the Sox are in a World Series, that organization will find themselves making more money then they know what to do with.

No disrespect, but the Bears are still THE BEARS. I'm not sure that even a Chicago Cub World Series would push football off the top of the sports during Sundays in October. It's just too inbred in the thoughts of local sports editors.

But you are right that a professionally-run White Sox team that contended would have the potential to be a big money-maker, one that could blow away the Atlantas or Bostons of the basebal world.

NewyorkSoxFan
12-23-2002, 08:47 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with Lip, the Sox put all the onus on the fans. They want us to show up, fill the ballpark to watch 2 stars and some good prospects. They don't want any responsibility, other than to say we are trying to build something. But how do you build when all your pieces are unknowns? Wouldn't it be smarter to bring in known quantities instead of hoping for another Cal Eldred. Although it was exciting to see Cal do well in 2000, it was the kiss of death for us as fans. From that day on you knew they would always be looking for the next Cal Eldred, ie Ritchie, Wells.

We never go get the new car, its like our dad wants to teach us responsibility, so he buys us a clunker and makes us fix it to have more appreciation for it. Being here in NY you get sick of seeing the Yankees always getting what they need. Most of the Time George doesn't want alot of players you hear talked about, but he knows the value of having the Yankee name and tradition out their. JR has almost stripped this francise of all its history.

I know I am rambling as well, so forgive me, but if we only understood what they were trying to accomplish, some direction.

NYSF

TornLabrum
12-23-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
That's all...just a "mea culpa," would buy Uncle Jerry and his minions some time, some forgiveness and some absolution.


:reinsy

"The most you'll ever get from me is a Mia Farrow."

Dan H
12-30-2002, 09:03 AM
We Sox fans do like to complain, and Jerry Reinsdorf bashing is fun. But that only goes so far. To hear every season that the team doesn't have any money and that it demands that we come out to the balllpark just because hope springs eternal gets old and tiresome season after season, decade after decade, century after century.

Then we have to get condescending lectures from writers like Carol Slezak and Phil Rogers about how little we care. The time for finger pointing and fan scapegoating is over. The Sox should just win something of significance or shut up. 86 years is long enough.

pudge
12-30-2002, 03:13 PM
I think something to keep in perspective is that nearly ALL teams have to go through something similar to what Sox fans go through. Look at the Cubs with the Trib's mega millions, and they still won't pursue the top free agents. Look at how Baltimore and Texas foolishly spent their money, look at how Milwaukee won't spend a dime despite having a new stadium! Look how the Twins will break apart their team in a year or so just because their owner is a jerk. Look how Lou Pinella left Seattle because the Mariners - who make a TON of money - wouldn't go get the left fielder they needed.

So the deal is, we aren't the only ones suffering. We love the Sox and we always will. I have noticed that the older people are certainly more bitter and upset because as you get older, you start to understand more and more how baseball is a business that is constantly screwing the fans. I will admit when I was 16-21, I loved the Sox no matter what. But when they spent a ton of money on Navarro and Belle and didn't pursue Roger Clemens in '97, I started to realize what a scam it all was, and of course the White Flag trade followed...

So I will admit that I don't love baseball or the Sox as much as I did when I was 18, and I will probably become more disenchanted as time goes on (with the likes of Lip and PHG hehe)... but if they ever do reach the Series, I wouldn't miss it for anything.

idseer
12-30-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS


My question to you is this-"Do we, as Sox fans, secretly enjoy this type of ownership?"

my answer is absolutely no!
as a sox fan i expect more than lies, deceit, and downright ignorance from the ownership. and i expect 'chicago' to actually be better than every other team ONCE IN A WHILE! why would anyone in their right mind enjoy this ownership?

PaleHoseGeorge
12-30-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I think something to keep in perspective is that nearly ALL teams have to go through something similar to what Sox fans go through. Look at the Cubs with the Trib's mega millions, and they still won't pursue the top free agents. Look at how Baltimore and Texas foolishly spent their money, look at how Milwaukee won't spend a dime despite having a new stadium! Look how the Twins will break apart their team in a year or so just because their owner is a jerk. Look how Lou Pinella left Seattle because the Mariners - who make a TON of money - wouldn't go get the left fielder they needed.

So the deal is, we aren't the only ones suffering. We love the Sox and we always will. I have noticed that the older people are certainly more bitter and upset because as you get older, you start to understand more and more how baseball is a business that is constantly screwing the fans. I will admit when I was 16-21, I loved the Sox no matter what. But when they spent a ton of money on Navarro and Belle and didn't pursue Roger Clemens in '97, I started to realize what a scam it all was, and of course the White Flag trade followed...

So I will admit that I don't love baseball or the Sox as much as I did when I was 18, and I will probably become more disenchanted as time goes on (with the likes of Lip and PHG hehe)... but if they ever do reach the Series, I wouldn't miss it for anything.

Here you go, pudge. Read this. What does "86 Years and Waiting" mean to you? (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Columnists/Bova/Welcome.htm)

Comparing the suffering of Sox Fans to any other professional sports franchise is silly on its face. There are only two teams that have suffered a comparable length of time. Red Sox fans whine even louder than Sox Fans even though their team has accomplished far more the last 86 seasons. As for Cub fans, their perverted notion that losing is cute is one of the central themes of this website. They are piss-pants children for thinking as they do.

Instead of chalking up disenchantment with the franchise to advanced age, couldn't we more easily prove your distorted view is the result of youthful ignorance?

NOBODY has suffered as long as Sox Fans--that's the point! We're ALL still fans of the Sox in spite of this fact.

In the future, I would appreciate you making a distinction between loyal Sox Fans and pollyannas. Nobody here is rooting against the team.

Thanks. :gulp:

TornLabrum
12-30-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Here you go, pudge. Read this. What does "86 Years and Waiting" mean to you? (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Columnists/Bova/Welcome.htm)

Comparing the suffering of Sox Fans to any other professional sports franchise is silly on its face. There are only two teams that have suffered a comparable length of time. Red Sox fans whine even louder than Sox Fans even though their team has accomplished far more the last 86 seasons. As for Cub fans, their perverted notion that losing is cute is one of the central themes of this website. They are piss-pants children for thinking as they do.

Instead of chalking up disenchantment with the franchise to advanced age, couldn't we more easily prove your distorted view is the result of youthful ignorance?

NOBODY has suffered as long as Sox Fans--that's the point! We're ALL still fans of the Sox in spite of this fact.

In the future, I would appreciate you making a distinction between loyal Sox Fans and pollyannas. Nobody here is rooting against the team.

Thanks. :gulp:

Another way of loooking at it is this way:

Since the Sox last won the World Series, we've thrown one and lost one. That's in 85 years. We've made three other appearances in the post-season. That's in 85 years. The last time the Sox won the World Series was two years before my late father was born and a year and a half before my mother was born. My father lived to be 75 and died six years ago. The Sox played in two World Series in his lifetime.

Even the Cubs have a better record than that in terms of World Series appearances. They at least made it to the Series in 1918 (where they played home games in Comiskey Park), 1929, 1932, 1935, 1938, and 1945. They've made it to the post-season three times also. That's nine post-season appearances to our five since we last one the World Series.

So apparently Cubs fans didn't always think it was lovable to lose.

So my question is this. What in the history of this franchise gives any of the younger fans here any cause for optimism? Is it our numerous free-agent acquisitions? Is it our numerous appearances in the World Series? Is it the way we hold on to our best pitchers? Is it the overall superiority of our front office over the years?

Just why should we be optimistic?

:KW

"I've done a lot to improve this team."

:reinsy

"And if more of you fans would come out, he could do even more."

TornLabrum
12-30-2002, 05:26 PM
Of course, I do have to admit that it's a lot easier to write my 500 words or so every week having these clowns running the team. So many thanks to The Chairman, Prof. Chaos, and Gen. Disarray for making my life oh so much easier.

WinningUgly!
12-30-2002, 06:40 PM
Wouldn't it be boring to be a Yankees fan? They just buy players, and win that way. They know they are going to the playoffs. We might say that is the way JR should run this team. But are we telling the truth?

I don't like either way.

Automatically being able to decide which free agents you will sign, without any other team being able to stop you is just wrong. If I were a Yankees fan, I'd have a hard time bragging to other fans about how great my team was. It would be like me bragging about my arm wrestling skills & only taking on 3rd graders.

Reinsdorf should, at the very least, be able to sign a top tier free agent every couple of years...every team should be able to. All MLB teams should be able to remain fairly competitive, through their farm systems & by adding the occasional piece through free agency. It's been said plenty of time on these boards already, but if owners are not able to compete, they shouldn't be running MLB organizations.

RKMeibalane
12-30-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Reinsdorf should, at the very least, be able to sign a top tier free agent every couple of years...every team should be able to. All MLB teams should be able to remain fairly competitive, through their farm systems & by adding the occasional piece through free agency. It's been said plenty of time on these boards already, but if owners are not able to compete, they shouldn't be running MLB organizations.

I agree. As the owner of professional sports franchise, Reinsdorf needs to understand that people will not support a mediocre product year after year, especailly not one that refuses to do anything to improve itself. All JR has left of the once-large Sox fan base is the people who visit this site, and others who fall into the category of "die-hard fan." Beyond that, there aren't many people who have an interest in the Sox. Most of the casual fans were turned off by the 1994 work-stoppage, and they decided to start drinking Kool-Aid, if you know what I mean.

Reinsdorf frequently says that he will put forth more of an effort to improve this franchise once fans return to Comiskey Park. What he fails to realize is that sports fans have changed. We live in an era where many of the younger sports fans are strongly influenced by what they see on ESPN or sports magazines. Nobody wants to read about a team that finished at 81-81. People would much rather support teams that are in contention every year.

In years past, it was possible for a team to struggled, but still maintain a large fan-base. As far as I know, the San Fransisco Giants have always drawn well, even when the team has been dissapointing. The St. Louis Cardinals have also had a strong fan base, even though they struggled prior to Tony LaRussa's arrival. However, times have changed. As I mentioned earlier, younger fans don't care about teams that don't perform well. As for the older generations, many of these fans have grown tired of the "same old sh*t." They are tired of the lies and broken promises. They are sick of being told "wait 'till next year."

If Jerry Reinsdorf wants people to listen to him and return to Comiskey, he must first listen to much louder voice- the voice of his fans. If he is not willing to do that, he has no business owning the Chicago White Sox.

pudge
12-31-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Here you go, pudge. Read this. What does "86 Years and Waiting" mean to you? (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Columnists/Bova/Welcome.htm)

Comparing the suffering of Sox Fans to any other professional sports franchise is silly on its face. There are only two teams that have suffered a comparable length of time. Red Sox fans whine even louder than Sox Fans even though their team has accomplished far more the last 86 seasons. As for Cub fans, their perverted notion that losing is cute is one of the central themes of this website. They are piss-pants children for thinking as they do.

Instead of chalking up disenchantment with the franchise to advanced age, couldn't we more easily prove your distorted view is the result of youthful ignorance?

NOBODY has suffered as long as Sox Fans--that's the point! We're ALL still fans of the Sox in spite of this fact.

In the future, I would appreciate you making a distinction between loyal Sox Fans and pollyannas. Nobody here is rooting against the team.

Thanks. :gulp:


PHG, sorry if I lost focus from the original concept of this post, but it has nothing to do with the history of the Sox. I agree that I am more ignorant than the elders, just as I see ignorance in the younger Sox fans that I know. I don't disagree with you there. My point is that the more losing you experience, the more disenchanted you become. It's not a knock. The fact that people on this site have called me a pollyanna cracks me up, considering I am one of the most cynical people I know, and have always been critical of the Sox.

Historically, yes, we've probably suffered just as much if not more than all other teams. I can't complain as much as someone who is older than me, because I have not experienced as much losing as they have (although I've experienced quite a bit!).

My post was to point out that RIGHT NOW, the Sox are not the only team acting like a bunch of asses. The original thread of this post was that we "enjoy" the current regime. My point is, I don't think we enjoy it, I think we accept it as part of the current state of the game, which it very much is.

RKMeibalane
12-31-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by pudge
My point is, I don't think we enjoy it, I think we accept it as part of the current state of the game, which it very much is.

I don't know if the Sox struggles have as much to do with the current state of the game as they do with Reinsdorf's unwillingness to spend a dime. There are several teams in baseball who are run by owners who just don't care. If that's what you meant by the "current state of the game," then I agree completely with what you said. Reinsdorf continues to blame the fans for any problems this team experiences. What he does not realize is that he has the power to win back the fans, he just won't use it.

Getting back to the original point of this thread, I don't think I enjoy the Reinsdorf regime; however, I think I will have more appreciation for any success the Sox do have, because I know that it may not happen again for sometime. I think a lot of fans, myself included, took the 2000 season for granted. I assumed that the Sox would have no problems winning the division again. I was wrong. If there's one thing I have learned from witnessing the Reinsdorf-Williams Empire, it is that success is about as rare as a Royce Clayton base hit.

WhiteSoxWinner
12-31-2002, 03:25 PM
Yeah, I can't say that I revel in this regime and secretly like it because it gives us ample opportunity to bash management. I think this board would have just as much fun if we had free spending owner, and we could debate which free agents we ARE going to sign.

At this point, we accept what we are stuck with and go with it.

soxtalker
12-31-2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I agree. As the owner of professional sports franchise, Reinsdorf needs to understand that people will not support a mediocre product year after year, especailly not one that refuses to do anything to improve itself. All JR has left of the once-large Sox fan base is the people who visit this site, and others who fall into the category of "die-hard fan." Beyond that, there aren't many people who have an interest in the Sox. Most of the casual fans were turned off by the 1994 work-stoppage, and they decided to start drinking Kool-Aid, if you know what I mean.

Reinsdorf frequently says that he will put forth more of an effort to improve this franchise once fans return to Comiskey Park. What he fails to realize is that sports fans have changed. We live in an era where many of the younger sports fans are strongly influenced by what they see on ESPN or sports magazines. Nobody wants to read about a team that finished at 81-81. People would much rather support teams that are in contention every year.

In years past, it was possible for a team to struggled, but still maintain a large fan-base. As far as I know, the San Fransisco Giants have always drawn well, even when the team has been dissapointing. The St. Louis Cardinals have also had a strong fan base, even though they struggled prior to Tony LaRussa's arrival. However, times have changed. As I mentioned earlier, younger fans don't care about teams that don't perform well. As for the older generations, many of these fans have grown tired of the "same old sh*t." They are tired of the lies and broken promises. They are sick of being told "wait 'till next year."

If Jerry Reinsdorf wants people to listen to him and return to Comiskey, he must first listen to much louder voice- the voice of his fans. If he is not willing to do that, he has no business owning the Chicago White Sox.

Well, there may be some change in fans over the years, but I think that much of the fans' reaction isn't terribly different. In the 40 years that I've been a fan (starting a year or two after the '59 championship), the Sox always drew well when they won and poorly when they lost. (The definition of drawing well has changed; the total numbers are higher these days.) That was a big difference between the Cubs and Sox in the 60's & 70's. The Sox management knew that they had to win to draw, while the Cubs could make it on the "friendly confines."

Of course, if you own the team, that's probably not a pattern that you want to see.

voodoochile
12-31-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I don't know if the Sox struggles have as much to do with the current state of the game as they do with Reinsdorf's unwillingness to spend a dime. There are several teams in baseball who are run by owners who just don't care. If that's what you meant by the "current state of the game," then I agree completely with what you said. Reinsdorf continues to blame the fans for any problems this team experiences. What he does not realize is that he has the power to win back the fans, he just won't use it.

Getting back to the original point of this thread, I don't think I enjoy the Reinsdorf regime; however, I think I will have more appreciation for any success the Sox do have, because I know that it may not happen again for sometime. I think a lot of fans, myself included, took the 2000 season for granted. I assumed that the Sox would have no problems winning the division again. I was wrong. If there's one thing I have learned from witnessing the Reinsdorf-Williams Empire, it is that success is about as rare as a Royce Clayton base hit.

In addition, one has to point out that JR is one of THE main reasons for the current state of the game. His short sighted opinions greatly influenced Bud Selig and other owners through the years, both in leading them to the strike in 1994 and later to the huge salary increases - which like it or not he contributed to when he dropped a wad on Albert Belle.

Still as RKM pointed out, it does come down mostly to JR's current unwillingness to spend a dime to improve the team that leads to the unfavorable attitude most of us have toward him.

My first response to the question asked in this thread basically mirrored what idseer had to say - "NO!" I don't gripe because I want to, I gripe because I have to. But, if anyone doesn't believe me, feel free to buy the Sox and produce several consecutive years worth of winners and see if I am still griping about the crappy ownership. (Yeah, I'm sure it just sucks to be a Yankee fan and watch your owner spend every penny he can to field winner after winner after winner after winner after...)

:reinsy
"You can't spend a dime if all you have is fifty-cents..."

soxtalker
12-31-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
My first response to the question asked in this thread basically mirrored what idseer had to say - "NO!" I don't gripe because I want to, I gripe because I have to. But, if anyone doesn't believe me, feel free to buy the Sox and produce several consecutive years worth of winners and see if I am still griping about the crappy ownership. (Yeah, I'm sure it just sucks to be a Yankee fan and watch your owner spend every penny he can to field winner after winner after winner after winner after...)

:reinsy
"You can't spend a dime if all you have is fifty-cents..."

A comparison to Yankees fans is an interesting way to answer the basic question of the thread. I have two impressions of NY Yankee fans. First, they make the assumption that they deserve to win every year -- somewhat similar to the attitude that Chicago fans had during the Bulls winning years. Second, they are more critical of their ownership and management when they lose than we are.

So, no, I don't think that we complain just because we want to. We don't assume that we deserve to win, because we haven't had the experience. But we certainly complain because we don't want to lose.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-31-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
A comparison to Yankees fans is an interesting way to answer the basic question of the thread. I have two impressions of NY Yankee fans. First, they make the assumption that they deserve to win every year -- somewhat similar to the attitude that Chicago fans had during the Bulls winning years. Second, they are more critical of their ownership and management when they lose than we are.

So, no, I don't think that we complain just because we want to. We don't assume that we deserve to win, because we haven't had the experience. But we certainly complain because we don't want to lose.

In addition to echoing what you're saying above, let me add that Sox Fans bring their misery onto themselves for KNOWING the team sucks but still refusing to give up on the team or the quest for winning. We're stubborn to a fault. That's the point I made in the WSI manifesto back in 1997. All the rational Sox Fans aren't Sox Fans anymore.

Now, if knowingly making yourself miserable can be confused with enjoying misery, I plead guilty. My support for the Sox is a life-long quest. I can no more drop the habit and support another team than a tiger can change its stripes.

I would be very happy if Reinsdorf sold the Sox. However, I will never be truly happy until the Sox win a championship. And that's just the way it is.

soxtalker
12-31-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
In addition to echoing what you're saying above, let me add that Sox Fans bring their misery onto themselves for KNOWING the team sucks but still refusing to give up on the team or the quest for winning. We're stubborn to a fault. That's the point I made in the WSI manifesto back in 1997. All the rational Sox Fans aren't Sox Fans anymore.

Now, if knowingly making yourself miserable can be confused with enjoying misery, I plead guilty. My support for the Sox is a life-long quest. I can no more drop the habit and support another team than a tiger can change its stripes.

I would be very happy if Reinsdorf sold the Sox. However, I will never be truly happy until the Sox win a championship. And that's just the way it is.

I guess that you can view sticking with the Sox as being stubborn. However, I have to consider the alternatives. I (like many others on this board) have been a Sox fan for most of my life. I passionately want to see my baseball team win a title. Now, I could take the rational approach of either cheering for no team or switching to another team. The former would leave me with an empty feeling. The latter -- well, let's just say that I can't really see cheering for the Twins, Indians, Yankees, A's, Angels, ...., let alone the Cubs.

I don't think that I can say the same for no other sport that I follow. I know that a lot of Chicago fans put the Bears first in their hearts, but that has never been the case for me. Probably the closest is -- or was -- the Bulls. It was an incredible moment when they won their first title, probably because I'd followed them since their inception. But if the Sox were to win it all -- well, that would be something else.

And that brings me back to the comparison with Yankee fans. In many respects I envy them a lot. They have a team that currently wins and has done so through much of their history. But maybe the experience with the Bulls can provide a small measure of hope. It was great to win all of those championships. However, toward the end, it wasn't quite as much fun. Oh, the games were exciting, but we knew what it felt like to win and, to some extent, we assumed that we would win. That first time, though, was something else. And it has been much, much longer since the last WS title. If we can do it, that's a feeling a Yankee fan can never know ...

WinningUgly!
12-31-2002, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


And that brings me back to the comparison with Yankee fans. In many respects I envy them a lot. They have a team that currently wins and has done so through much of their history. But maybe the experience with the Bulls can provide a small measure of hope. It was great to win all of those championships. However, toward the end, it wasn't quite as much fun. Oh, the games were exciting, but we knew what it felt like to win and, to some extent, we assumed that we would win. That first time, though, was something else. And it has been much, much longer since the last WS title. If we can do it, that's a feeling a Yankee fan can never know ...

The way I look at it, we as Sox fans value a division title as much or more than the Yankee fans do a WS crown. Is this sad? Probably so, but in reality, even though a World Series is the ultimate goal, we understand that heading into any given baseball season, the New York Yankees are more likely to win the Series than we are to just win our division. I can't even imagine what it would be like seeing the Sox win it all...I'm a freak when the Sox are in 1st in late April. :D: This is the reason Jerry Reinsdorf only wants to field a team that has a shot at competing for the AL Central title. Since winning seasons on the South Side are so few & far between, merely winning the division is viewed as a huge success & JR takes advantage of all Sox fans for that.

WhiteSox = Life
12-31-2002, 09:15 PM
"It's not the REGIME, it's the TEAM!"

New motto for all White Sox fans for why they still follow and stay loyal to the AL Chicago team.

TornLabrum
12-31-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
"It's not the REGIME, it's the TEAM!"

New motto for all White Sox fans for why they still follow and stay loyal to the AL Chicago team.

I've met several of the players over the past dozen years or so, and I can say now more than ever that I root for the guys on the field.

Dan H
01-01-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I've met several of the players over the past dozen years or so, and I can say now more than ever that I root for the guys on the field.

After interviewing several ex-players for my book, I, even more than previously, looked at them as real human beings. But that doesn't help when someone is throwing to the wrong base or failing to drive in a runner from third with less than two outs.

To White Sox = Life: Sorry but the regime is the team. It is the regime to puts the team together and it is the regime that really gives us reason to hope. If the regime is committed to winning, there is always hope. If the regime thinks that competing in a lousy division is the bottom line, it is hard to hope for anything more than three and out in the playoffs. That is, if you make the playoffs.

I have a different slogan: No more promises. Just do it already.

WhiteSox = Life
01-01-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
After interviewing several ex-players for my book, I, even more than previously, looked at them as real human beings. But that doesn't help when someone is throwing to the wrong base or failing to drive in a runner from third with less than two outs.

To White Sox = Life: Sorry but the regime is the team. It is the regime to puts the team together and it is the regime that really gives us reason to hope. If the regime is committed to winning, there is always hope. If the regime thinks that competing in a lousy division is the bottom line, it is hard to hope for anything more than three and out in the playoffs. That is, if you make the playoffs.

I have a different slogan: No more promises. Just do it already.

I agree with you on the winning part. But, is the regime more the team that the team is the regime? Probably, yes. Now, would there be a team with no regime more than there would be no regime without a team? No. Both are important for a baseball organization to function, and, even though having a regime supporting a team is rather crucial for a team's success, it isn't necessarily the biggest factor. Look at the Anaheim Angels. Could you honestly say that Disney totally supported them? I think you'd say that Disney only supported the Angels by keeping the team together and letting them fly to the sun together as a team. So, the regime, though they let the team prosper, didn't go out and make blockbuster moves saying they're willing to commit to win; they only let the current team stick together one more season instead of making changes.

So, my question is, to anybody who is reading this, if you've managed to get this far without giving up ( :smile: ) "Is the Chicago White Sox regime the team? Or are they two separate limbs of one body 'working together'?" Now, in the White Sox case, the regime (management) is considered to be the undermining cause of the White Sox team's (players) futility? Is this true? You can argue that the reason the team doesn't win is because the regime hasn't done much to aid them. You can also argue that, when the team has had shots, they have not pulled through.

Let's take a quick look at 1959. When the White Sox lost to the Los Angeles Dodgers four games to two, whose fault was it? The team's or the regime's? Look at other times when they haven't pulled through. 1983, 1993, 2000. You can pass blame to the regime saying, "Why didn't they pick up that needed starter? Or, why didn't they pick up a good relief man? Or, why didn't they trade for a solid number 4 or 5?" You can also say, "Why didn't the team execute the fundamentals? Why didn't they get the key hit? Why didn't they make the key play?"

I know I'm rambling on a little bit here, and just let me say, I am in no way whatsoever defending the Reinsdorf Regime, but, rather, I'm trying to make valid points showing the differences between a regime and a team. Both are needed to function, but they are not the one and the same, which I'm sure you understand.

To conclude, I know I used the Angels to prove my point, but fluke or not, they were perfect examples. Also, I used past White Sox teams that failed (which is all of them since 1917) as my evidence. Surely, if the regime had picked up a number one starter, a great defensive player, or another great lead-off guy, the team might have gone all the way. Who's to say they even would've gotten to the position they were in? Blaming the regime can only go so far, before you have to say, "Why don't the players just do something?!"

Well, you know what, that's exactly my point, and your slogan applies perfectly.

"No more promises. Just do it already." Whether it's the team saying "We feel confident and are going for a World Championship," or it's the regime saying, "Valuable additions will be made upon renewed fan interest, i.e. attendance woes picking up," I, along with every other White Sox fan on these boards, just want a World Series Championship for the Chicago White Sox.

Is it that much to ask for? I don't know, but, please, for the love of God: Regime and team alike no matter how similar or different they are - "No more promises. Just do it already."

The preceding post was not:
A.) Justifying the White Sox' losing ways.
B.) Criticizing anybody's beliefs, especially Dan H.'s.
C.) Backing up the team's vow of winning... anything!
D.) Supporting the team's inability to win in the clutch.
E.) Least of all, defending the Reinsdorf Regime's beliefs of passing blame to others.

Thanks once again to anybody who took the time to read and decipher my post.

voodoochile
01-02-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
The preceding post was not:
A.) Justifying the White Sox' losing ways.
B.) Criticizing anybody's beliefs, especially Dan H.'s.
C.) Backing up the team's vow of winning... anything!
D.) Supporting the team's inability to win in the clutch.
E.) Least of all, defending the Reinsdorf Regime's beliefs of passing blame to others.

Thanks once again to anybody who took the time to read and decipher my post.

I made it through and I think the main point is do we root for the owners or players when we root for the Sox? Personally I like to think of it as rooting for the jersey. I hope a team will be good enough to bring me happiness by winning a lot of games and going deep in the playoffs, but I also root OR AGAINST the ownership depending on how well they manage to put together a team capable of the above task on a regular basis. Since I have only actively rooted for the Sox since 1979, I have really only experienced one ownership group and they have failed miserably at their appointed task of building those winning teams I love to cheer for. Hence, at the present, while I root for the unifom of the White Sox and the players wearing them, it will take a drastic change in the way they have performed over the last 20+ years to make me love this ownership group. Further more - if they do manage to actually eek out one WS championship doing it "JR's way" (read on the cheap with no question about who engineered the amazing feat of winning one WS every 20+ years), my first desire will be for him to immediately sell and take the profits - because historically the JR way has been more bust than boon to my beloved uniforms and I would not expect it to repeat itself anytime soon...

soxguy
01-02-2003, 12:23 PM
All of the above being said, I still can't wait for opening day and the 2003 season. Nothing like enjoying your favorite team at your favorite ball park in your favorite city in the best country in the world, not to mention eating those great polish sausages with grilled onions and a brew, stay positive guys.

Clarkdog
01-02-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Personally I like to think of it as rooting for the jersey. I hope a team will be good enough to bring me happiness by winning a lot of games and going deep in the playoffs, but I also root OR AGAINST the ownership depending on how well they manage to put together a team capable of the above task on a regular basis.

I completely agree. Success is a two-way street in professional sports, the guys on the field have to perform and the management has to put the players that can work best together to win. The constant is the jersey. I think it's completely fair to be critical of players and management when it comes to poor performance. There was plenty of blame to be shared for 2002's underwhelming season.

I will say however that I believe the best thing about being a Sox fan are the fans themselves. I have been a fan for 26 years and there are no other fans I have encounted that are as well versed and knowledgeable about the game of baseball. And I'm not talking about the ability of posters here who have of the ability to deliver statistics to bolster discussions. But its the ability all of us seem to have in pulling terrific insights into the team, its management and it performance that lead to great discussion and debate.

Everyone here wants winning baseball, but I think we all love watching and talking about baseball and our Sox even more. Win or lose - that's is what I like about the Sox.

So are we secretly fans of the regime? No. I think we are just fans of baseball and the SOX entirely - it doesn't matter who runs them or who plays for them as long as we can all talk about them today, tomorrow, and the next day.

Sorry for my sappy rambling.

Dan H
01-02-2003, 10:18 PM
A writing instructor I had said the key to good fiction is a like a great puppet show: you don't see the strings. Other words, when you read a great story, you get so engrossed you don't even realize that it is fiction and not fact. The minute the writer makes it unrealistic, the reader sees the strings, realizes it is fiction and loses interest.

Baseball is a business, but we fans like to think it as a sport. We delude ourselves and this is harmless as long as we appreciate the game. Part of owner's responsibility to help us with this illusion. What do you get from this ownership? Constant reminders that they are more interested in money than winning. You can't help but see the strings.

My biggest problem with the current ownership is that it doesn't help create an identity for the club. You can't win every year but you can create an image. Why did fans love 1985 Bears? Winning the Super Bowl helped. But that team had a real identity. It was a thowback to old fashioned, hard-hitting Bears. You couldn't count how many Bears had radio shows during the 80's, and this was before stations like the Score.

You can cheer for the jersey but it helps to have some substance behind the cloth. The Sox ownership can create this substance if they only had a clue.

For now: No more promises. Just do it already.

soxnut
01-03-2003, 08:18 PM
:smile: Hey DanH.... I love your slogan!! Do you think you'll have a banner at the ballpark this year with that on it? That would be awesome!! :D: :D: :D:

Dan H
01-04-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
:smile: Hey DanH.... I love your slogan!! Do you think you'll have a banner at the ballpark this year with that on it? That would be awesome!! :D: :D: :D:

That's a good idea. I just wonder if the TV cameras will pan that shot. And would Reinsdorf and company get the message?

I really think this slogan should be the rallying cry of the Sox fans this year. We should show Chicago we are not like Cub fans who think a World Series is right behind every two game winning streak. We are all getting older. It would be nice if the Sox won something when we still have the strength to bring the beer glass to our mouths.

soxnut
01-04-2003, 01:38 PM
Yeah it should be the rallying cry this year!!!!! :cool: I don't know if the camera's would pan it or not, unless we happen to get a game on ESPN, I'm sure that they would. It could end up in the papers, ya never know. :D:

SoxxoS
11-05-2004, 12:43 AM
I thought I would resurrect what I thought was one of my best threads (to toot my own horn) with some great/interesting replies...

We see the Red Sox win the Series this year...and now what do their fans have to look forward to this year? Looking at the bright side...they can't go into each season as excited about possibly winning a World Series title, like we are. We can go into this season saying "this might be our year," so we got that going for us.

Now we have an offseason up in the air with what possible free agents KW is going to look at (BELTRAN) and how many trades KW is going to make.

I will say this for being a Sox fan...It is INTERESTING and EXCITING!

Hangar18
11-05-2004, 10:50 AM
Uncle Jerry Reinsdorf owns this team............but I think we as Sox fans under this regime, we actually love this regime.

Heh heh, No, we dont.

Baby Fisk
11-05-2004, 11:42 AM
Heh heh, No, we dont.I'm with Hangar. Everyone has grown familiar with this regime and what to expect from it, but I don't equate familiarity with fondness. If a sale was announced tomorrow, for the first time in a long time I would spend several ecstatic minutes (hours?) doing moves like these guys:
:bandance: :yup: :wired: :dancers: :booty: :hug:

Hangar18
11-05-2004, 12:17 PM
[QUOTE=WhiteSox = Life]
Look at other times when they haven't pulled through. 1983, 1993, 2000.
QUOTE]


1983 = Bad Luck. REIN$DORF spent the money, but bad luck held us back.
1993 = One Man Short. Rein$dorf tried to cheap his way with the 1990,1991,
1992 & 1993 teams.
2000 = Injuries. Team was decimated mid-season with injuries to almost
every starter (the key to us winning by the way) and we werent able to
replace the starters.

voodoochile
11-05-2004, 12:31 PM
Didn't he just sign Freddy Garcia to a 3 year deal? If he won't sign pitchers past the point where contracts are insurable, and take that risk on guys who are older (RJ) or out of shape (Fatolo), is this really such a negative? Not in my eyes. If he did sign a SP to a 5 year deal last year, and he got hurt, we'd be hearing how dumb KW is for doing it. Right?
Sure, from the people who think the team should continue doing things the way they are currently doing them. The people who want the team to spend more and take more chances wouldn't be that upset, IMO. Even if it were a career ending injury (unlikely - most aren't). If it was a one year thing, then you would still have the services of a top of the rotation starter for 4 more years.

The problem is JR keeps taking one or two year shots at things. Wells, Colon, Belle, etc. All of those big name, big ticket acquisitions were designed to give the Sox one year of service hoping the rest of the team would pick it up and make some magic in that single given season. When it didn't happen, the team looked elsewhere, never giving it a serious run. It takes more than one chance for most teams to win a championship or even a pennant. Yes, I realize that Wells and Colon were both added to a team that had won a division title recently, but neither of them was kept around - Wells rightly so and thus the Sox keep having to go back to replace the talent they already had. That means they keep taking one step forward and one step back. If you want to win, you have to keep stepping forward. You have to keep adding MORE talent. You have to stop depending on unproven players.

Yes, you have to spend money wisely, but in the end, talent wins championships. Long term talent means more chances and a greater likelihood the team will finally break through. This team has never understood that concept or at least they have never built the team that way...

SoxxoS
11-05-2004, 01:33 PM
That is a great point, voodoo. It's one and done with this mindset, and history says (OBVIOUSLY) that it hasn't worked for us. KW has to wake up and realize this.

Iwritecode
11-05-2004, 02:59 PM
Wouldn't it be boring to be a Yankees fan? They just buy players, and win that way. They know they are going to the playoffs. We might say that is the way JR should run this team. But are we telling the truth?

I remember watching the Bulls in the 90's. It felt GREAT knowing that when the season started the Bulls would be in the playoffs and once the finals rolled around you might as well have handed them the trophy then.

MUCH better than this:

"Well, if JR increases they payroll enough and we get a couple of good players and nobody gets hurt, we MIGHT have a shot at the divison!!!"

In short, to answer your original question...

No.

Hangar18
11-05-2004, 03:36 PM
[QUOTE=SoxxoS]
Wouldn't it be boring to be a Yankees fan? They just buy players, and win that way. They know they are going to the playoffs.
QUOTE]

Hmmm. Sox Fan = Knowing you have little chance at World Series
Yankee Fan = Knowing every year have chance to win World Series

I think Id rather KNOW every year, weve got a shot to WIN the WS.


:reinsy
" Yeah, but think about this people. Waiting in line for Playoff Tickets,
every single year. The fighting Traffic and the Crowds for the Championship Parades, the Grant Park congestion....... you could get into an Accident driving down for this, I mean Cmon people, who needs the hassle? Im saving you guys the trouble, and this is the Thanks I get?
Talk about Ungrateful Fans. Sheeeeeesh! "

JKryl
11-05-2004, 04:49 PM
Interesting thread. You may have a point. Sox fans like to bitch. Having a warm body to complain about beats an impersonal newspaper any day. However, the frustration level is somewhat disconcerting. It would be nice to release the tension once in a while by taking the division without a, "white flag trade", or having the players go out on strike. Sometimes I think of people in the middle ages that used to walk around beating themselves on their backs as atonement for their sins. Maybe that's it, we're in hell, and being a Sox fan is our punishment. Hmmmmm.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-05-2004, 05:15 PM
This isn't too difficult to understand. All the rational Sox Fans aren't Sox Fans anymore.

Why are we like this? Because this is the only way! How else could we cope with all the losing and the utter anonymity while losing? There is no glory. All the rational Sox fans arenít Sox fans anymore! The true-to-the-core Sox fan never Never NEVER forgets that this team has failed for eighty years straight. There are a lot of dead Sox fans who lived otherwise full lives but never saw their team win a championship. Unlike their Cubs fan neighbors, they never once shrugged their shoulders, cracked a smile and quipped, ďI just love those Cubbies!Ē Sad, isnít it?
Read about it here (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Columnists/Bova/Welcome.htm).

:cool:

Baby Fisk
11-05-2004, 05:15 PM
:reinsy
" Yeah, but think about this people. Waiting in line for Playoff Tickets,
every single year. The fighting Traffic and the Crowds for the Championship Parades, the Grant Park congestion....... you could get into an Accident driving down for this, I mean Cmon people, who needs the hassle? Im saving you guys the trouble, and this is the Thanks I get?
Talk about Ungrateful Fans. Sheeeeeesh! "LOL! Not to mention those long lineups for the men's room. Tekijawa would be incensed!