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WinningUgly!
12-23-2002, 01:18 AM
#33 - Veeck as in Wreck

By Bill Veeck and Ed Linn (1962)

Baseball is a lot less fun without promo-meister Veeck, who recounts the eureka moments behind the exploding scoreboard, the pinch-hitting midget and the contortionist first base coach. He always gave fans what they wanted, even if that was, in one case, a fire-eating pelican.


#47 - Shoeless Joe

By W.P. Kinsella (1982)

The same richness as Field of Dreams, the movie it inspired, but on a wider canvas. The novel has plot twists and fascinating characters not in the screenplay, most notably author J.D. Salinger and Eddie (Kid) Scissons, who claims to be the oldest living Cub.


#49 - Eight Men Out

By Eliot Asinof (1963)

The final word on the controversial 1919 Black Sox scandal, a critical event in sports history. Former minor leaguer Asinof persuasively argues that the only participant worthy of exoneration is not Shoeless Joe Jackson but third baseman Buck Weaver.


Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/features/2002/top_sports_books/1/)

kermittheefrog
12-23-2002, 02:11 AM
Interesting list. Only one Bill James book and no Total Baseball. At the very least Total Baseball should be there instead of the Baseball Encyclopedia.

VeeckAsInWreck
12-23-2002, 05:18 AM
If you are looking for a good book, I highly recommend Veeck As In Wreck, not just because I chose it as my name here, but because it is a very entertaining read. When I first read the book, it felt like I was talking baseball with Veeck over a nice cold brew. :gulp: Baseball needs another Bill Veeck.

TornLabrum
12-23-2002, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!

#49 - Eight Men Out

By Eliot Asinof (1963)

The final word on the controversial 1919 Black Sox scandal, a critical event in sports history. Former minor leaguer Asinof persuasively argues that the only participant worthy of exoneration is not Shoeless Joe Jackson but third baseman Buck Weaver.


Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/features/2002/top_sports_books/1/) [/B]

It can't be the last word if he doesn't know the difference between Billy Maharg and Peaches Graham. If he made that glaring an error, what else did he either miss or get wrong? It's a good book, but a little closer attention to details like that suggests sloppy research.

jortafan
12-23-2002, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
#47 - Shoeless Joe

By W.P. Kinsella (1982)

The same richness as Field of Dreams, the movie it inspired, but on a wider canvas. The novel has plot twists and fascinating characters not in the screenplay, most notably author J.D. Salinger and Eddie (Kid) Scissons, who claims to be the oldest living Cub.


I must admit to enjoying the book much more than the film, which struck me as silly. I was particularly upset that the Scissons character did NOT make the screenplay. After all, how much happier of a story can there be where Scissons (who has gone through life telling lies about how he had once been a major league pitcher for the Cubs) finally gets his chance to pitch for them, only to get knocked on his butt and lose to Joe Jackson and the rest of the White Sox? The screenplay must have been written by a damn Cubs fan.

pudge
12-23-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
I must admit to enjoying the book much more than the film, which struck me as silly. I was particularly upset that the Scissons character did NOT make the screenplay. After all, how much happier of a story can there be where Scissons (who has gone through life telling lies about how he had once been a major league pitcher for the Cubs) finally gets his chance to pitch for them, only to get knocked on his butt and lose to Joe Jackson and the rest of the White Sox? The screenplay must have been written by a damn Cubs fan.

Amen brother... Shoeless Joe batted freakin' RIGHT HANDED in that movie... I despise that film and all who like it - they are not true baseball fans. :)

Happy Holidays!

Foulke You
12-23-2002, 03:21 PM
Sox fans looking for a good read should check out a couple of my favorites:

Through Hope and Despair- by Dan Helpingstine
I'm not sucking up to WSI, I really thought it was a well written book written by a diehard Sox fan. Getting a real Sox fan's perspective into print is a rarity but it is a good book to read as well as it is a Sox fan's year by year memories of our team from the 50s through the 90s. Picked it up at SoxFest last year and really enjoyed it.

The White Sox Encyclopedia- by Rich Lindberg
This book is more than just a collection of stats. It has the complete history of the team, the ballparks, the owners, and much more. The White Sox Yarns section is particularly entertaining because it is a list of strange and bizarre stories and facts about the Sox. It is a must own for any Sox fan. You can get this at Borders but it costs around $60 since it is hard cover and quite large.


Field of Dreams notes- Joe Jackson batted right handed in the film because the actor Ray Liotta was a righty had a tremendously difficult time trying to look convincing as a lefty batter so they just went with him batting right handed. I thought Field of Dreams was an excellent movie. What didn't you like about it other than Shoeless Joe batting right handed? Just curious.

Ol Aches & Pains
12-23-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Sox fans looking for a good read should check out a couple of my favorites:

Through Hope and Despair- by Dan Helpingstine
I'm not sucking up to WSI, I really thought it was a well written book written by a diehard Sox fan. Getting a real Sox fan's perspective into print is a rarity but it is a good book to read as well as it is a Sox fan's year by year memories of our team from the 50s through the 90s. Picked it up at SoxFest last year and really enjoyed it.

The White Sox Encyclopedia- by Rich Lindberg
This book is more than just a collection of stats. It has the complete history of the team, the ballparks, the owners, and much more. The White Sox Yarns section is particularly entertaining because it is a list of strange and bizarre stories and facts about the Sox. It is a must own for any Sox fan. You can get this at Borders but it costs around $60 since it is hard cover and quite large.


Field of Dreams notes- Joe Jackson batted right handed in the film because the actor Ray Liotta was a righty had a tremendously difficult time trying to look convincing as a lefty batter so they just went with him batting right handed. I thought Field of Dreams was an excellent movie. What didn't you like about it other than Shoeless Joe batting right handed? Just curious.

Gary Cooper also couldn't swing convincingly from the left side when they filmed Pride of the Yankmees, so they sewed a backward NY on his jersey, let him swing right-handed, and reversed the negative to make him a lefty. If they could do it in 1942, you'd think they could do it for Field of Dreams. By the way, I agree the book was much better. It didn't have Kevin Costner, for one thing.

Another book most here would enjoy is Baseball Palace of the World, by Douglas Bukowski, which is a chronicle of the last year of Old Comiskey Park, and Bukowski's involvement in the futile effort to save it. It's probably out of print, but I'm sure it could be found at a used bookstore in Chicago or the subs.

idseer
12-23-2002, 11:30 PM
if anyone is interested, w.p. kinsella also wrote a baseball book called "the iowa baseball confederacy" (1986) which deals with a facet of the game that distinguishes it from any other sport .... no time limit. it's a fantasy about a team all stars from the iowa baseball confederacy who play a pickup game with the chicago cubs in 1908 that eventually lasts over 2000 innings.
it is a fantastic read!

hose
12-24-2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Sox fans looking for a good read should check out a couple of my favorites:

Through Hope and Despair- by Dan Helpingstine
I'm not sucking up to WSI, I really thought it was a well written book written by a diehard Sox fan. Getting a real Sox fan's perspective into print is a rarity but it is a good book to read as well as it is a Sox fan's year by year memories of our team from the 50s through the 90s. Picked it up at SoxFest last year and really enjoyed it.

The White Sox Encyclopedia- by Rich Lindberg
This book is more than just a collection of stats. It has the complete history of the team, the ballparks, the owners, and much more. The White Sox Yarns section is particularly entertaining because it is a list of strange and bizarre stories and facts about the Sox. It is a must own for any Sox fan. You can get this at Borders but it costs around $60 since it is hard cover and quite large.


Field of Dreams notes- Joe Jackson batted right handed in the film because the actor Ray Liotta was a righty had a tremendously difficult time trying to look convincing as a lefty batter so they just went with him batting right handed. I thought Field of Dreams was an excellent movie. What didn't you like about it other than Shoeless Joe batting right handed? Just curious.


Those are the next two baseball books I'm buying.

Speaking of baseball books , when is Canseco and his "tell all" book coming out?....

Mr.Hand, "Are you all on dope?"

34 Inch Stick
12-24-2002, 03:03 PM
My favorite sports book is at Caesar's Palace. An unlimited number of seats and possibly the best bloody mary I have ever had.

DVG
12-26-2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Amen brother... Shoeless Joe batted freakin' RIGHT HANDED in that movie... I despise that film and all who like it - they are not true baseball fans. :)

Happy Holidays!

I like that film and I'm a baseball fan, pudgy boy. I'll take it any
day over "Eight Men Out."

moochpuppy
12-27-2002, 10:22 AM
The omission of "Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball" by Harvey Frommer is a crock.

TornLabrum
12-27-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
The omission of "Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball" by Harvey Frommer is a crock.

Frommer's book was a hack job. He got his information about Comiskey Park from "Green Cathedrals" and screwed it up terribly, talking about Comiskey installing a shower in the bleachers when, of course, that was done by Bill Veeck. IIRC, he also mentioned the Bull Ring and Bullpen Bar.

He was interviewed on The Score about the time that was published, and whoever the host was (perhaps Mike Murphy when he was doing weekends there) corrected him on the shower error, which he repeated when discussing the ballpark on the air, he insisted that, "Oh, no, Comiskey installed a shower in the bleachers."

A far better biography of Jackson was written by Daniel(?) Gropman. He actually interviewed people from Greenville, and from what I can tell, he got all of his facts straight.

Dadawg_77
12-27-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Amen brother... Shoeless Joe batted freakin' RIGHT HANDED in that movie... I despise that film and all who like it - they are not true baseball fans. :)

Happy Holidays!

The movie tries to tell a story about the true essence of baseball. The love of the game, the love between a father and son, redemption for past mistakes or missteps. It was not a bio pic on 1919 White Sox or Shoeless Joe, so if there are some historic inaccuracies, they can be lived with since it isn't central to the core of the movie.

Cheryl
12-27-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum

A far better biography of Jackson was written by Daniel(?) Gropman. He actually interviewed people from Greenville, and from what I can tell, he got all of his facts straight.

I just got The Life and Times of Joe Jackson by David Fleitz. It's pretty good so far. I never like the Gropman book, if that's the one I'm thinking of. It was accurate but poorly written.

mike squires
12-28-2002, 11:15 AM
I just got Call Four by Jim Bouton. The new copies have a signiature from the hurler (the one i bought did anyway) There's a picture of Hawk in the the back. I hope to get him to sign it at Soxfest. I'm only on page 20 but it's very entertaining!

SI1020
12-28-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Interesting list. Only one Bill James book and no Total Baseball. At the very least Total Baseball should be there instead of the Baseball Encyclopedia. I'm filled with Holiday Cheer at the moment so I don't want to start a fight, I know you like all the modern stats. I will say that James' Total Baseball had me tearing my hair out. Have you seen his latest ( I think its his latest) offering Win Shares? I like that method a little better.

SI1020
12-28-2002, 02:07 PM
I know its highly unlikely, but I'd appreciate it if anyone at WSI ever comes across Big Time Baseball by Ben Olan published in 1959 or 1960 please give me a holler. It's not on the top 100 list, probably wouldn't make a top 1000 list, but I sure wish I still had my weather beaten copy from my childhood. Like my old baseball cards and many other momentos of youth, gone but not forgotten.

Cheryl
12-30-2002, 09:46 AM
SI, Amazon has 4 used copies of the Maury Allen edition on sale. Also, a lot of libraries own the edition you're looking for. If you want to see it and your local public library doesnt have it, have them borrow it. Tell them the OCLC accession number is 7874084. That will help them see what libraries own it.

Dadawg_77
12-30-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by SI1020
I'm filled with Holiday Cheer at the moment so I don't want to start a fight, I know you like all the modern stats. I will say that James' Total Baseball had me tearing my hair out. Have you seen his latest ( I think its his latest) offering Win Shares? I like that method a little better.

But Total Baseball was one of the first out there. Win Shares isn't possible without Total Baseball, that is why Total should get a nod.

SI1020
12-31-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
SI, Amazon has 4 used copies of the Maury Allen edition on sale. Also, a lot of libraries own the edition you're looking for. If you want to see it and your local public library doesnt have it, have them borrow it. Tell them the OCLC accession number is 7874084. That will help them see what libraries own it. Thank you so much for the info and a very Happy New Year to you.

SI1020
12-31-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
But Total Baseball was one of the first out there. Win Shares isn't possible without Total Baseball, that is why Total should get a nod. I think it was Mark Twain who was quoted as saying that the three kinds of lies were lies, damnable lies and statistics. I fully admit that I'm not nearly as well versed as some of you on the modern stats, although I did spend more than a little bit of time studying Total Baseball. IIRC Jim Bottomley, a HOF player actually ended up with a negative TB rating. Now you can argue that perhaps Bottomley does not deserve HOF status but to end up with a negative rating shows me the system is flawed. I also remember players like Brooks Robinson not faring well under James. I don't know what others may think, but my eyes told me that B Robby was simply the absolute best fielding 3Bman I ever saw. On other message boards I would see young posters take all of James stats like they were the ultimate word on all things baseball. I'm thinking, wait a minute I saw some these guys play ( like Brooks R and Sandy Koufax), my own personal experience is at odds with some of these stats. We'll see how Theo Epstein and Bill James do in Boston. I still say that Sandy Koufax was the greatest pitcher I ever saw. I may revise that after Pedro retires.