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View Full Version : How did we lose that game??????


danman31
08-12-2001, 12:21 AM
We were in control and Foulke looked good, but didn't get the job done. If Foulke had used that 2-2 pitch to Ichiro better... I say Foulke should've put something close to the dirt on 2-2 and hope he swinge. Don't give him anything great to hit on 3-2. He should've been willing to walk Ichiro. So what if a run scores, all you have to do is get McLemore out. I think Foulke would've pitched differently to him if he still had the lead.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by danman31
We were in control and Foulke looked good, but didn't get the job done. If Foulke had used that 2-2 pitch to Ichiro better... I say Foulke should've put something close to the dirt on 2-2 and hope he swinge. Don't give him anything great to hit on 3-2. He should've been willing to walk Ichiro. So what if a run scores, all you have to do is get McLemore out. I think Foulke would've pitched differently to him if he still had the lead.


Foulke is a very good pitcher. Foulke is not a closer and never will be a big time closer. HE lacks the great fastball. When will someone, ANYONE, in the sox organization realize this?????????

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 12:38 AM
Where is it written that a closer has to have a phenomenal fastball? Some of the great closers of the past were Hoyt Wilhelm (knuckler) Rollie Fingers (hardly overpowering, just very clever) and so on. I can't think of other names right now, but I'm telling you that the overpowering closer was not always the norm.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Where is it written that a closer has to have a phenomenal fastball? Some of the great closers of the past were Hoyt Wilhelm (knuckler) Rollie Fingers (hardly overpowering, just very clever) and so on. I can't think of other names right now, but I'm telling you that the overpowering closer was not always the norm.

its written everywhere. You can name exceptions in anything. The fact is, you need a 95 plus fastball, to be a good closer.

stosh
08-12-2001, 12:40 AM
This game was lost top of the first. I don't know what this fascination of trying to steal third is but it does'nt work and is getting old. Should have had at least 1 or 2 then. I agree with the poster who said Durham needs to sit, the guy is absolutely worthless in the clutch or lead-off. Foulke is getting a lot of blame and some deserved, but we have to get off these moronic baserunning decisions. Man, first Houston blows a great opportunity when the Flubs get killed and now this!! Let's play Tony Graf and get the hell rid of Durham.

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


its written everywhere. You can name exceptions in anything. The fact is, you need a 95 plus fastball, to be a good closer.

Oh, it's written everywhere because you say so? How about Sutter? The splitter was his specialty. How about the A's closer who used to be a Cubs starter (his name is escaping me)? Hardly a blazer.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


Oh, it's written everywhere because you say so? How about Sutter? The splitter was his specialty. How about the A's closer who used to be a Cubs starter (his name is escaping me)? Hardly a blazer.


do i need to repeat my last post? i will if needed....

doublem23
08-12-2001, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Foulke is a very good pitcher. Foulke is not a closer and never will be a big time closer. HE lacks the great fastball. When will someone, ANYONE, in the sox organization realize this?????????

There's that guy in San Diego who also doesn't have an overpowering fastball, yet he is still a great closer. Foulke's problem today was that:
A) He sat on the bench for like 20 minutes after throwing ONE pitch. If he hadn't pitched in the 8th, I think he would have been sharper.
B) This is only Foulke's 2nd season of closing games, and he has this small problem were he sometimes over-excites himself. I think it is something he will grow out of.

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



do i need to repeat my last post? i will if needed....

Saying the same crap louder doesn't make it a fact.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


Saying the same crap louder doesn't make it a fact.


okay my opinion is crap and yours isnt? Ok i see how it is. I guess that should tell you something huh?

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



okay my opinion is crap and yours isnt? Ok i see how it is. I guess that should tell you something huh?

That's not what I said at all. I have offered several examples that prove that your original statement was not true. Your only response is to say "do I need to repeat my last post" as if the last post was so clear and cogent as to destroy all argument.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


That's not what I said at all. I have offered several examples that prove that your original statement was not true. Your only response is to say "do I need to repeat my last post" as if the last post was so clear and cogent as to destroy all argument.


you mentioned 3 or 4 closers in a history of thousands. Like i said, there are always exceptions to the rule. If closers didnt need heat, most wouldnt throw 97 mph....

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 01:03 AM
You said it is a fact that you need a 95 plus fastball to be a good closer. That is called forming a hypothesis. I and another poster named not just a few but a bunch of hall-of-fame quality closers who did not have one. Null hypothesis (that a 95 plus fastball is not needed) supported, end of research.

ode to veeck
08-12-2001, 01:04 AM
and there's a lot of guys with great heat who will never be decent closers, a closer needs mental focus and control on at least of couple of really good pitches

fouke's lost of couple of critical games, one to ichiro tonight and one to the twinks ealrier in the season, but he's also won an awfully high percentage of save opportunities , he not a "average" or "AA" closer (still harping on bmr's semantics here)

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
You said it is a fact that you need a 95 plus fastball to be a good closer. That is called forming a hypothesis. I and another poster named not just a few but a bunch of hall-of-fame quality closers who did not have one. Null hypothesis (that a 95 plus fastball is not needed) supported, end of research.

i NEVER said its a fact you need a 95mph fastball to be a good closer and id really appreciate it if you didnt put false words in my mouth

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 01:06 AM
Absolutely Ode. What is needed to be a great closer is mental toughness, command of your "out" pitch, the ability to warm up quickly and bounce back quickly to pitch several nights in a row.

That is my hypothesis. Now attempt to support the null by naming great closers who didn't possess the above attributes.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Absolutely Ode. What is needed to be a great closer is mental toughness, command of your "out" pitch, the ability to warm up quickly and bounce back quickly to pitch several nights in a row.

That is my hypothesis. Now attempt to support the null by naming great closers who didn't possess the above attributes.

***** :)

ode to veeck
08-12-2001, 01:11 AM
you mentioned 3 or 4 closers in a history of thousands. Like i said, there are always exceptions to the rule. If closers didnt need heat, most wouldnt throw 97 mph....

you're right bmr, it was more like you said 97 mph, cmon now let's take one of your points here,

(premise a) let's assume you're right and the vast majority of today's closers through better than 95 mph, and

( premise b) fouke's got better numbers than a vast majority of today's closers (saves, opp ba, saves/opportunity % etc)

(conclusions: take your pick)

you don't have to have 95+ heat to be one of the better closers

only the excepional closers don't have 95mph heat (like HOFers afore mentioned by nellie

the thousands of average closers are right, you have to have 95+ heat to be an average closer

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
you mentioned 3 or 4 closers in a history of thousands. Like i said, there are always exceptions to the rule. If closers didnt need heat, most wouldnt throw 97 mph....

you're right bmr, it was more like you said 97 mph, cmon now let's take one of your points here,

(premise a) let's assume you're right and the vast majority of today's closers through better than 95 mph, and

( premise b) fouke's got better numbers than a vast majority of today's closers (saves, opp ba, saves/opportunity % etc)

(conclusions: take your pick)

you don't have to have 95+ heat to be one of the better closers

only the excepional closers don't have 95mph heat (like HOFers afore mentioned by nellie

the thousands of average closers are right, you have to have 95+ heat to be an average closer


if you expect me to respond to that crap, or even understand it, youre mistaken...

doublem23
08-12-2001, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


i NEVER said its a fact you need a 95mph fastball to be a good closer and id really appreciate it if you didnt put false words in my mouth

Read post #4 in the thread.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


Read post #4 in the thread.


i dont have to read anything. I know what i think and i know what i say

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



if you expect me to respond to that crap, or even understand it, youre mistaken...

Nope, just make unsupportable statements, e.g. the Sox are a double A team (do you [i]really[/] believe this Sox team wouldn't annihilate any double A league?) and that you can't be a good closer without an overpowering fastball.

Tone down the rhetoric to supportable statements like "the majority of closers have overpowering fastballs" or "the Sox are not a playoff quality team" and maybe you would be able to support your positions.

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



i dont have to read anything. I know what i think and i know what i say

It's unfair to use my own statements against me.....lol

doublem23
08-12-2001, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
its written everywhere. You can name exceptions in anything. The fact is, you need a 95 plus fastball, to be a good closer.

Here it is, bmr. Straight from the forum. Looks to me like you said it is a fact that you need a 95mph fastball to be a good closer, but what do I know? I'm only 17 years old!

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


Nope, just make unsupportable statements, e.g. the Sox are a double A team (do you [i]really[/] believe this Sox team wouldn't annihilate any double A league?) and that you can't be a good closer without an overpowering fastball.

Tone down the rhetoric to supportable statements like "the majority of closers have overpowering fastballs" or "the Sox are not a playoff quality team" and maybe you would be able to support your positions.


i wont tone down anything to make you or anyone else happy....what i said was true and will never be retracted...

ode to veeck
08-12-2001, 02:09 AM
i wont tone down anything to make you or anyone else happy....what i said was true and will never be retracted...

cause that would take a proctologist

you won't tone down your rhetoric,
you won't back up what you say (closers need 95mph),
you can't support any of your statements with facts,
or respond to contrary posts (that do contain references & facts) ...with anything but more unbased rhetoric

its starting to get to that 'if it walks like a duck' time in this discussion

chisoxfanatic
08-12-2001, 02:16 AM
:comiskey

God! I am ever rolling in my grave!

Heather the Redbird

ode to veeck
08-12-2001, 02:35 AM
:michaels

"Commie, I've got to ask you this question ... is there any truth to the rumor that you're going to charge bmr to wash his own rhetoric!?"

doublem23
08-12-2001, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
:michaels

"Commie, I've got to ask you this question ... is there any truth to the rumor that you're going to charge bmr to wash his own rhetoric!?"

:comiskey
Of course BMR is going to wash his own rhetroric, and he's being pulled before he can reach 500 posts in August so we don't have to pay him his bonus. This isn't a money burning operation we got going here, and I swear, this team is moving if we don't get some funds to replace 35th Street Grounds.

Ok - maybe I made the last thing up, but, things haven't changed much in 100 years, have they?

ode to veeck
08-12-2001, 02:45 AM
:reinsy

"Not if I can help it!, Hey Commie, we gotta do lunch and share thoughts on this stuff. Wait'll you hear about white flag ...."

doublem23
08-12-2001, 02:53 AM
:comiskey
Sounds good. What kind of food do you have at the park? Churros? Funnel Cake? I hope your jacking up the price. I remember back in aught 6, we served hot dogs for a nickel, and let me tell you, those stupid fans whine and whined about it all season long.

Iguana775
08-12-2001, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


There's that guy in San Diego who also doesn't have an overpowering fastball, yet he is still a great closer. Foulke's problem today was that:
A) He sat on the bench for like 20 minutes after throwing ONE pitch. If he hadn't pitched in the 8th, I think he would have been sharper.
B) This is only Foulke's 2nd season of closing games, and he has this small problem were he sometimes over-excites himself. I think it is something he will grow out of.

i think that is the reason why he did that bad in the 9th. i think we would have won if bob came in to finsih the 8th and then have keith nice and warm for the 9th.

doublem23
08-12-2001, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Iguana775
i think that is the reason why he did that bad in the 9th. i think we would have won if bob came in to finsih the 8th and then have keith nice and warm for the 9th.

If Bobby Howry came into that 8th inning we'd probably not even have to play the bottom of the 9th, anyways...

:walk
I'd get Keith & Ray off the hook!

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 03:00 AM
Hey DoubleM, the heck with sleep. You can sleep across Indiana and Ohio and not miss a thing.

doublem23
08-12-2001, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Hey DoubleM, the heck with sleep. You can sleep across Indiana and Ohio and not miss a thing.

I was planning to finish my summer reading across Indiana and Ohio. Who thinks I can read The Scarlett Letter, The Metamorphosis, and One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest in 12 days?

I'm glad people around here like me enough to want me to fail English so i can be here for another hour or so.

:)

Nellie_Fox
08-12-2001, 03:06 AM
Jeez, they still make you read The Scarlet Letter? I remember when Czal had to read it in high school, his summation was: Hester Prin, a woman caught in a story without a plot.

doublem23
08-12-2001, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Jeez, they still make you read The Scarlet Letter? I remember when Czal had to read it in high school, his summation was: Hester Prin, a woman caught in a story without a plot.

That's what I've heard Nellie. What I find wierd is the fact that English IV at my school is Brit Lit, yet I'm reading Hawthorne & Kesey (Americans), and Franz Kafka (German).

I shouldn't whine now, though. Wait until the funtastic Billy Shakespeare days start. Ouch. I'll need an appointment with Dr. Cliff!

Kilroy
08-12-2001, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
...The fact is, you need a 95 plus fastball, to be a good closer...

...i NEVER said its a fact you need a 95mph fastball to be a good closer and id really appreciate it if you didnt put false words in my mouth...

Nice job in this thread gents. You shamed BMR into silence after the famous last words "...I never said...". That's a beautiful thing.

Bmr31
08-12-2001, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Nice job in this thread gents. You shamed BMR into silence after the famous last words "...I never said...". That's a beautiful thing.


LOL!!! shamed me into silence? Why because i realize we have an average team and foulke isnt a great closer? Sorry to disappoint you, but i went to sleep.