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Jjav829
12-18-2002, 10:59 PM
According to the New York Daily News...

If Maddux agrees to arbitration, giving him a new one-year arrangement with Atlanta, the Braves will deal Ortiz to the Cardinals for second baseman Fernando Viņa. If Maddux doesn't agree, the Braves could become a player for free agent outfielder Cliff Floyd.

I am not sure if they would have any interest in any of our 2B but hopefully Williams tries if Maddux does agree. I think Atlanta has to move one of their SP's if Maddux agrees. Millwood would bring them the most and clear more salary, but I think they may still move Ortiz. I am not getting my hopes up, but I can only hope that KW tries again. We now know that he did really want Ortiz, I hope he knows that Ortiz may be available yet again.

Link to full article (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/44471p-41895c.html)

hold2dibber
12-19-2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
According to the New York Daily News...



I am not sure if they would have any interest in any of our 2B but hopefully Williams tries if Maddux does agree. I think Atlanta has to move one of their SP's if Maddux agrees. Millwood would bring them the most and clear more salary, but I think they may still move Ortiz. I am not getting my hopes up, but I can only hope that KW tries again. We now know that he did really want Ortiz, I hope he knows that Ortiz may be available yet again.

Link to full article (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/44471p-41895c.html)

Vina is a pretty good player. To beat that offer the Sox would have to offer a hell of a lot more than Liefer/Harris/prospect. The Braves are desparate for infield help, but I don't think we have what they need (I doubt we'd deal Crede or Konerko, and I'm sure the Braves would rather have Vina than Valentin, Harris, Jimenez or Liefer). Maybe Liefer (left handed stick at first) plus some bullpen help (they lost Spooneybarger and Remlinger this off season), like Osuna and a good prospect like Malone, Webster or Sanders. But I doubt that would get it done either.

Paulwny
12-19-2002, 11:01 AM
Some talk of this situation yesterday on WFAN 660 radio NYC.
With the yankmees balking at the expos' demands for Colon or Vazquez the feeling was that since Atlanta is in need of a 1b, the yankmmees might offer Nick Johnson plus another player for Millwood.
Now Contreas has been ruled a fa, who knows what?

My conspiracy theory:
Contreras not a fa now ruled a fa, is mlb forcing the expos' hand in trading Colon or Vazquez without all the demands, mainly Tatis?

Iguana775
12-19-2002, 11:45 AM
espn radio said that millwood will most likely be the one traded. KW should try to get him.

hold2dibber
12-19-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Iguana775
espn radio said that millwood will most likely be the one traded. KW should try to get him.

Millwood strikes me as a risky proposition. I think he could be real solid again next year, but I wouldn't be surprised if he regressed. That said, I think he'd probably be the no. 2 starter on our staff, but I still wouldn't give up a current starter (other than Valentin, Rowand or Jimenez) or a top prospect (i.e., Rauch, Borchard, or Honel) for him.

dougs78
12-19-2002, 12:13 PM
A fine analysis as usual Dibbs, I completely agree. I'd love to have Millwood on our staff, but I share your concerns. Hes been up and down his whole career, so even though hes healthy now, doesn't make him a 'sure thing.' OF course, having said that I'd take him over every guy we have now, except buehrle. However, for what they paid for Ortiz, I'd have to say we would have to give something pretty good.
Incidentally....Is Vina really that good?? on par with Ortiz or Millwood? Maybe i've vastly underrated his contribution, but I don't think I'd do that if I were the braves. That would give the CArds, one hell of a staff again....surprise.

hold2dibber
12-19-2002, 04:32 PM
It's official; Maddux has accepted arbitration and will return to the Braves (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1219/1479721.html) , which gives them 6 starters. They could move Marquis into the bullpen (since they've lost a few quality bullpen arms) or they could try to trade somebody (Ortiz or Millwood seem most likely) to reduce payroll since Maddux could be in for a huge paycheck. Let the rumors begin (and then end when they make a trade with the Cardinals or the A's or the Diamondbacks or the Yankees or anybody but us).

LauraJ14
12-19-2002, 07:56 PM
Just wanted to know if there are any starting pitchers in MLB that
you would want on the SOX staff. It seems every name that is mentioned there are 20 reasons why no one wants them.
Millwood is too inconsistent, Ortiz walks too many batters,Glavine is too old, Clemen's arm might fall off, this one has injury problems etc...
I want a starting pitcher that has pitched for a club in a pennant race or the playoffs. I want someone who has pitched in pressure situations, some one proven. Millwood, Ortiz would be improvements over our 14 game winners who win games when the season is over and lose games when we are still in the race.
JMO

joecrede
12-19-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
Just wanted to know if there are any starting pitchers in MLB that
you would want on the SOX staff. It seems every name that is mentioned there are 20 reasons why no one wants them.


That's the point with pitching. Aside from the top, and I mean the very top tier pitchers, you never know what you're going to get year-to-year. Better off to stand pat than over pay for someone who is not in that class.

Lip Man 1
12-19-2002, 08:39 PM
Laura:

That's an EXTREMELY good post! I especially liked the part about wanting guys who can win when the Sox are actually still in a race as opposing to pitching well when the pressure is off.

Lip

pudge
12-19-2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
Just wanted to know if there are any starting pitchers in MLB that
you would want on the SOX staff. It seems every name that is mentioned there are 20 reasons why no one wants them.
Millwood is too inconsistent, Ortiz walks too many batters,Glavine is too old, Clemen's arm might fall off, this one has injury problems etc...
I want a starting pitcher that has pitched for a club in a pennant race or the playoffs. I want someone who has pitched in pressure situations, some one proven. Millwood, Ortiz would be improvements over our 14 game winners who win games when the season is over and lose games when we are still in the race.
JMO

I think what people are trying to say is that they don't want to give up too much for someone like an Ortiz, Millwood, etc., because they tend to be overrated... and we know our great GM overpaid for Todd freakin' Ritchie, so everyone is gun-shy now.

There are times when you should pull the trigger, and times when you shouldn't... oh man I think back to '97 and I wish we signed Clemens instead of Belle... that was a risk worth taking, I wish we wouldn't have been afraid of his injury history. But an Ortiz, or a Millwood - those guys really aren't gonna help that much, IMO. Still, if you can get them for a reasonable price, I wouldn't kick them out of bed... I mean, well, you know what I mean.....

jeremyb1
12-20-2002, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
Just wanted to know if there are any starting pitchers in MLB that
you would want on the SOX staff. It seems every name that is mentioned there are 20 reasons why no one wants them.
Millwood is too inconsistent, Ortiz walks too many batters,Glavine is too old, Clemen's arm might fall off, this one has injury problems etc...
I want a starting pitcher that has pitched for a club in a pennant race or the playoffs. I want someone who has pitched in pressure situations, some one proven. Millwood, Ortiz would be improvements over our 14 game winners who win games when the season is over and lose games when we are still in the race.
JMO

i agree with whoever else it was that said people are just apprehensive about giving up too much. we don't have much veteran talent that we're willing to give up so most of the guys we'd end up trading would have considerable potential they've not yet reached, making it easy for us get burned as we did in the ritchie deal. in my opinion we have a lot of solid young talent that appears to be ready to contribute now or in the near future (garland, wright, rauch). we need to give them a chance before we start dealing them if you ask me. if rauch or garland comes out blazing we may already have our number two starter. i think we need to see what we have before we start trading it away.

VeeckAsInWreck
12-20-2002, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Better off to stand pat than over pay for someone who is not in that class.

That kind of attitude is going to be our downfall. We need to get someone now. But that is fine, we'll see what happens when none of our "prospects" pan out. Jon Rauch is Randy Johnson without the fastball and intimidation factor. Go ahead and stand pat if you must, but I want Bartolo Colon on our pitching staff for X-mas/Hannukah/ or Kwanzaa! Until then we are doomed for .500!

kermittheefrog
12-20-2002, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
That kind of attitude is going to be our downfall. We need to get someone now. But that is fine, we'll see what happens when none of our "prospects" pan out. Jon Rauch is Randy Johnson without the fastball and intimidation factor. Go ahead and stand pat if you must, but I want Bartolo Colon on our pitching staff for X-mas/Hannukah/ or Kwanzaa! Until then we are doomed for .500!

I'd say Bartolo Colon is in the class of guys you can depend on.

hold2dibber
12-20-2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I'd say Bartolo Colon is in the class of guys you can depend on.

I agree. I am hesitant to trade any of our starting position players (outside of Valentin, Jimenez or Rowand) for pitching help when the "help" is in the form of a guy who is probably only going to be marginally better than Garland, Wright, Biddle and/or Rauch. The free agent route would eliminate this problem, but Maddux was probably the only difference maker out there that I thought was worth the money/risk. Colon is a difference maker who I would deal current contributors for. Other than that, if you're talking about someone like Millwood, Ortiz, John Burkett, Brad Penny, Kevin Appier, etc., I would consider a deal for prospects (e.g., Ring, Webster, Sanders, Stewart, etc.) and/or our bench guys (Liefer, Graffy, Harris, Ginter, etc.) but I would not want to part with PK or Carlos or Crede for someone of that ilk.

hold2dibber
12-20-2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
That kind of attitude is going to be our downfall. We need to get someone now. But that is fine, we'll see what happens when none of our "prospects" pan out. Jon Rauch is Randy Johnson without the fastball and intimidation factor. Go ahead and stand pat if you must, but I want Bartolo Colon on our pitching staff for X-mas/Hannukah/ or Kwanzaa! Until then we are doomed for .500!

I understand your point and I too thought that the Sox should have made some bold moves this off season, especially with the division so weak and the fact that we have some damn good ball players in their prime right now. But at this point, I do think we're better off standing pat. Your approach (better to do something, even if you have to overpay, than stand pat) is what lead to the horrible Ritchie trade last off season. I don't think you make the team any better trading Joe Crede for Kevin Millwood or John Garland for Elmer Dessens.

VeeckAsInWreck
12-20-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Your approach (better to do something, even if you have to overpay, than stand pat) is what lead to the horrible Ritchie trade last off season. I don't think you make the team any better trading Joe Crede for Kevin Millwood or John Garland for Elmer Dessens.

I understand that everyone here is still traumatized by that trade. I am too, but KW had the right idea but the wrong pitcher. Colon is someone who is well worth a truck load of prospects. I hope KW can work something out with Oscar Minaya, I would say our odds are good now that the Yankees and Red Sox have been scared off. Until then we will be a slightly better than mediocre team in a very weak division that may sneak into the playoffs .

like Rage Against The Machine once said:

"It has to start somewhere
It has to start sometime
What better place than here
What better time than now"

-Guerilla Radio