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doublem23
12-17-2002, 12:26 PM
I don't know how much stock you want to put into this, but according to USA Today, the Sox are still interested in Colon...

The White Sox, who already have added Billy Koch as a closer, have left-hander Mark Buehrle and a cast of question marks in their rotation. General manager Ken Williams said Monday he doesn't know if a deal can work, but it makes sense to go after the Expos pitchers instead of straining the payroll for a middle-level free agent.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2002-12-16-expos-dealing_x.htm

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 12:33 PM
I would be shocked if the Sox obtained either Colon or Vazquez. One thing I find a little confusing, however, is the demands the Expos have made for Colon. I've seen it reported in several places that the Expos demanded Nick Johnson, Juan Riviera, El Duque, a prospect, and money to pay El Duque from the Yankees, but only demanded Shea Hillenbrand and Casey Fossum from the Red Sox. It seems quite obvious to me that what they asked from the Yankees is MUCH more than what they asked for from the BoSox. It leaves me confused as to what it would take for the Sox to get Colon. I have guessed all along that it would take either Garland or Rauch, plus either C.Lee, Borchard or Crede, but now I don't know what to think. In any event, I don't think the Sox are going to do a thing now.

34 Inch Stick
12-17-2002, 12:41 PM
Taking several of Kenny's quotes together, I am resigned to the Sox having the same starting rotation as last year. It's a shame. There was a lot of good product on the market this year in areas that we needed help. For all you rotation predictors, here it goes:

1. Buhrle
2. Garland
3. Wright
4. Rauch
5. Ritchie

I think we will be fine with Buhrle, Garland and Rauch. I am not very confident in Wright. Since the expectations for Ritchie are so low this year, I am sure he will meet them. At least the bullpen will be better with out of the rotation and back into his natural reliever role.

Paulwny
12-17-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
I don't know how much stock you want to put into this, but according to USA Today, the Sox are still interested in Colon...



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2002-12-16-expos-dealing_x.htm

I didn't see the sox listed as one of the teams in the Montreal Gazette. Right now the expos are insisting that Tatis has to be part of any deal involving Colon or Vazquez.

It's in English http://www.canada.com/montreal/sports/teams/expos/story.html?id={64AD9403-8FD4-4AE3-A0CE-5A0445D218D7}

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Taking several of Kenny's quotes together, I am resigned to the Sox having the same starting rotation as last year. It's a shame. There was a lot of good product on the market this year in areas that we needed help. For all you rotation predictors, here it goes:

1. Buhrle
2. Garland
3. Wright
4. Rauch
5. Ritchie

I think we will be fine with Buhrle, Garland and Rauch. I am not very confident in Wright. Since the expectations for Ritchie are so low this year, I am sure he will meet them. At least the bullpen will be better with out of the rotation and back into his natural reliever role.

I agree that that is the rotation we're going to have, with the possible exception of Biddle beating out Rauch in spring training. I'm not sure that I agree that there was a lot of good product on the market this year in areas in which we need help. The only decent CF on the market was Finley, and he's too old. The best free agent starting pitchers were/are Glavine, Maddux, Moyer and Clemens and, again, they're all too old and, IMHO, would have required the Sox to offer more than any of those guys are worth. (By the end of the Glavine contract, I'm confident that the Mets will be wishing they had never signed him.) However, there are/were plenty of good middle relievers out there, and I would like to see the Sox pick up one or two, especially since it looks like we'll be going with a young and unproven rotation.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I didn't see the sox listed as one of the teams in the Montreal Gazette. Right now the expos are insisting that Tatis has to be part of any deal involving Colon or Vazquez.

It's in English http://www.canada.com/montreal/sports/teams/expos/story.html?id={64AD9403-8FD4-4AE3-A0CE-5A0445D218D7}

I suppose someone will eventually take the bait, but if they're going to insist on sending Tatis along with Colon or Vazquez, they better be willing to take a lot less talent than they otherwise would have expected.

Paulwny
12-17-2002, 01:13 PM
If anyone tried the link and received a "sorry, this page is no longer available", here's the article from the Montreal Gazette.

Expos tell suitors Tatis must be part of package
High-priced, underachieving third baseman is the player Minaya is most anxious to deal

STEPHANIE MYLES
The Gazette


Tuesday, December 17, 2002



Elvis left the building yesterday without handing out a single Christmas convertible to any member of his entourage.

All because of Fernando Tatis.

The third baseman's $6.75-million (U.S.) choke chain around the team's neck remained the biggest obstacle in Expos general manager Omar Minaya's bipolar mandate of cutting payroll (for his Major League Baseball bosses) and competing in the division (to secure his own future prospects).

Taking Tatis seemed to be a condition in every potential deal involving either Bartolo Colon or Javier Vazquez.

So far, no takers.

"I would have loved to have been able to get a deal done," Minaya said as he left grand old Opryland the same way he arrived - surrounded and besieged. He even signed autographs.

"We are closer to getting a deal done than we were before we got here," he said.

Minaya will continue to talk to the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox about Colon.

He'll continue talking to the Cincinnati Reds, from whom he has requested stud outfielder Adam Dunn.

He might continue talking to the Florida Marlins and New York Mets on deals involving other players.

And he has one deal on the table, first proposed Saturday by the other team, involving an Expo who is not one of the dynamic duo. Without naming the team, Minaya said he had 24 hours to accept the offer and get a player who comes with a significant salary. It could be the Braves.

"I might reject the trade because I might not be able to move the guy," Minaya said.

This is purely speculation, but it might involve trading Tatis for a player who is a money problem for the other team.

If Minaya could pull it off, it would make negotiations for one of the big two so much simpler.

"They have made an offer without flexibility. I'm only in a position to say yes or no to that situation," Yankees GM Brian Cashman said yesterday about discussions about Colon.

The sticking point there is either Tatis or the Expos' request that the Yankees cover the salary of Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez if he were moved to Montreal. Maybe both.

An hour before leaving Nash-ville, Minaya once again met with Red Sox GM Theo Epstein. They might talk today.

"We exchanged ideas about how to bridge the gap," Minaya said. "I think we're close. But that's just me.

"It's a two-way street."

Epstein said he thought the teams' needs were at odds. "(Omar) is hoping that one team will step up and overpay in terms of taking on the amount of payroll it takes," Epstein said. "It won't be the Red Sox, for the sake of fiscal sanity. Not for one player. It doesn't make sense."

As far as the Reds are concerned, a source with knowledge of the negotiations told The Gazette Minaya had asked for Dunn in a possible trade for Colon. But the Reds and general manager Jim Bowden are sitting tight, waiting for Minaya to come down to earth and start talking about players who aren't the Reds' blue-chip assets.

While Bowden was dangling Dunn Sunday, not wanting to be left out of the conversation about the Expos' ace, he apparently was changing his tune about his availability 24 hours later.

And that's the bottom line for the quiet 2002 winter meetings. Players who are young, talented and, above all, cheap are at more of a premium than ever before.

Nearly every franchise is saddled with several bloated player contracts. To balance those out, they need players making close to the minimum.

Minaya still has time; advisers have urged him to be patient and he'll get what he wants.

But the next step for the sleep-deprived GM is to smile for the media in San Juan today, with Puerto Rican players Vazquez and Jose Vidro by his side.

Both are still Expos. For now.

Minor moves: The Expos selected reliever Luis Ayala from the Arizona Diamondbacks organization in the Rule 5 draft yesterday. Ayala finished the season with the Ottawa Lynx after pitching in the Mexican League in 2002, but Minaya said the club couldn't come to terms with him. If the Expos don't keep the 24-year-old right-hander on the major-league roster all of next season, he must be returned to Arizona.

STEPHANIE MYLES

Daver
12-17-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
[B]If anyone tried the link and received a "sorry, this page is no longer available", here's the article from the Montreal Gazette.


Paul please don't post entire articles,we can get in trouble for that.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 04:46 PM
The way things are now it makes me yearn for the good old days when the Sox would go out and get back end guys like Scott Sanderson, Kirk McCaskill, Kevin Tapani and Charlie Hough and they would be solid contributors.

Lip

Paulwny
12-17-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by daver
Paul please don't post entire articles,we can get in trouble for that.

I thought it was ok if you put in the link, which I did in the previous post. Right or wrong?

Daver
12-17-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I thought it was ok if you put in the link, which I did in the previous post. Right or wrong?

Wrong,it is still a copyright violation to copy the entire article,you can Quote from it, but you cannot duplicate it. I double checked this with a lawyer to confirm it,because I didn't beleive it either.

Paulwny
12-17-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by daver
Wrong,it is still a copyright violation to copy the entire article,you can Quote from it, but you cannot duplicate it. I double checked this with a lawyer to confirm it,because I didn't beleive it either.

OK, thanks

34 Inch Stick
12-18-2002, 08:30 AM
Dibber, I think Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Moyer, Colon and Vasquez all being available this offseason makes it a great crop. Other than Clemens, all of the older pitchers have shown no real signs of a breakdown. I would be very happy if the Sox were able to sign anyone but Clemens to a 3 year deal.

There have also been a number of relief pitchers on the market that may have helped.

Anyway it is just all talk. Nothing much is going to change.

hold2dibber
12-18-2002, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Dibber, I think Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Moyer, Colon and Vasquez all being available this offseason makes it a great crop. Other than Clemens, all of the older pitchers have shown no real signs of a breakdown. I would be very happy if the Sox were able to sign anyone but Clemens to a 3 year deal.

There have also been a number of relief pitchers on the market that may have helped.

Anyway it is just all talk. Nothing much is going to change.

I agree that there are/were some really good pitchers available, but all came with significant question marks. Maddux, Glavine, Moyer and Clemens are all past the point when virtually all pitchers begin to decline. Maybe all of these guys will be complete freaks of nature and pitch well into their early 40's, but the odds are against them and that makes all of them risky propositions. As to Vazquez and Colon, those two are both stud, front of the rotation types and both are in their prime. The question is how much flesh the Expos are going to expect in return. We'll have to wait and see (although I certainly don't expect the Sox to obtain either of them). I agree that there are/were plenty of good middle relievers available; in light of the fact that we're going to be going with a young and unproven rotation (yet again), I'm pretty pissed that the Sox have not made fortifying the bullpen a top priority.

Paulwny
12-18-2002, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm pretty pissed that the Sox have not made fortifying the bullpen a top priority.

Almost everyone agrees that we need a vet catcher to do some catching and be a mentor. Girardi signs with the cards for < $1 mil. If we can't afford him, what can we afford?
We are becoming the bottom feeders of mlb.

MetalliSox
12-18-2002, 12:07 PM
It's possible that the Expos could be backing themselves into a corner in a way. They are gonna keep holding out and make sure Tatis is included in a deal. The season will draw closer and they will become more desperate and may have to make a deal without Tatis.
Who knows. Tatis has a lot of potentional but he is a whack job and a half, supposedly. I don't want anyone delaying the Crede project again.

Paulwny
12-18-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
It's possible that the Expos could be backing themselves into a corner in a way. They are gonna keep holding out and make sure Tatis is included in a deal. The season will draw closer and they will become more desperate and may have to make a deal without Tatis.


Montreal is in no hurry. All they need is the yankmees or red sox to acquire another starter (Maddox, Clemens) and the other will come running to counter the acquisition.