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View Full Version : We're Not Getting Ortiz


seventytwo
12-17-2002, 09:29 AM
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/fortwayne/sports/4758317.htm

OfficerKarkovice
12-17-2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by seventytwo
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/fortwayne/sports/4758317.htm

Well I thought KW was going to come through on this one but no he ended up f***ing it up.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 09:42 AM
Bummer. Looks like our rotation going into '03 will be the same as it ended in '02. The package we were (reportedly) offering (Liefer, Harris and either Malone or Stewart) probably made less since for the Giants than did Moss. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Moss is as effective in '03 as Ortiz is, and he'll cost a lot less. The Giants took a very minor hit to the strength of their starting rotation and saved probably $4 million. The package we were offering might have helped them a little with their RF problem, but neither Liefer nor Harris have really proved themselves at the MLB level in the way Moss has.

Much ado about nothing.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Well I thought KW was going to come through on this one but no he ended up f***ing it up.

Why do you say that? If the Giants had insisted upon Borchard or Crede or Rauch being in any deal, would you still agree that he forched it up? It would have been nice, but since we don't know what the Giants wanted from the Sox, it's not fair to say KW is at fault here.

OfficerKarkovice
12-17-2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Why do you say that? If the Giants had insisted upon Borchard or Crede or Rauch being in any deal, would you still agree that he forched it up? It would have been nice, but since we don't know what the Giants wanted from the Sox, it's not fair to say KW is at fault here.

True...but I doubt that one of those three were in question. If they were however I will conceed that KW made the right decision, but until I hear otherwise I am of the opinion that he should have got Ortiz. If in fact it was Leifer, Harris, Stewart like it has been reported that would have been a fantastic deal...but I have my doubts that the Giants would have taken that deal.

SI1020
12-17-2002, 09:47 AM
After a long run of success the Braves have lost Glavine and may lose Maddux too. Instead of rolling over and automatically accepting a slide back to mediocrity they go out and get Hampton and Ortiz. Glavine and Maddux they will never be, but at least the Braves seem to have a permanent committment to winning.

OfficerKarkovice
12-17-2002, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by SI1020
After a long run of success the Braves have lost Glavine and may lose Maddux too. Instead of rolling over and automatically accepting a slide back to mediocrity they go out and get Hampton and Ortiz. Glavine and Maddux they will never be, but at least the Braves seem to have a permanent committment to winning.
You're right...the Braves are going to have a heck of a rotation this year with Maddux (assuming he returns which seems very likely now), Ortiz, and Hampton as the top 3.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by SI1020
Glavine and Maddux they will never be, but at least the Braves seem to have a permanent committment to winning.

Must be nice. I have no idea what that would be like as a fan. Interesting concept.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by seventytwo
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/fortwayne/sports/4758317.htm

Lesson learned: HSC (who, sadly, appears to gave gone away) is more reliable than Gammons.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
You're right...the Braves are going to have a heck of a rotation this year with Maddux (assuming he returns which seems very likely now), Ortiz, and Hampton as the top 3.

Don't forget Millwood. Still, I think I'd rather have Maddux, Glavine, Moss and Millwood over Maddux, Hampton, Ortiz and Milwood. But in either case, they're going to be good again.

kermittheefrog
12-17-2002, 10:00 AM
We can't really compete with that, you can make a sound argument Moss had an as good or better year than Ortiz last year. Not to mention Moss being younger and much cheaper.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
We can't really compete with that, you can make a sound argument Moss had an as good or better year than Ortiz last year. Not to mention Moss being younger and much cheaper.

What do you think it would have taken to beat the Braves offer? Probably Garland or Rauch, I would assume, plus a decent prospect like Malone or Webster.

kermittheefrog
12-17-2002, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What do you think it would have taken to beat the Braves offer? Probably Garland or Rauch, I would assume, plus a decent prospect like Malone or Webster.

Hard to tell, personally I think it was foolish for the Braves to give up Moss there. I think we would have to give up Konerko, we really don't have any comparable pitching. Garland and Rauch or maybe Garland and Malone. These are all guesses of course I have no clue what exactly the Giants wanted in return.

I'm just really dissapointed I don't get to write a column about a big trade now.

Jjav829
12-17-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by SI1020
After a long run of success the Braves have lost Glavine and may lose Maddux too. Instead of rolling over and automatically accepting a slide back to mediocrity they go out and get Hampton and Ortiz. Glavine and Maddux they will never be, but at least the Braves seem to have a permanent committment to winning.

Exactly. See what happens when you have a competent GM who knows how to run a baseball team. Lose two Hall of Famers (although it may only be one because it sounds like Maddux will be returning) and Schuerholz goes out and gets two more pitchers to bolster his rotation, and basically make the Braves contenders...yet again.

duke of dorwood
12-17-2002, 11:00 AM
As a trigger man, KW belonged in the last episode of "The Sopranos"

:KW

Fugett about trades

moochpuppy
12-17-2002, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by SI1020
Braves seem to have a permanent committment to winning.

And they don't even sell out their ballpark. Hmmmm.....that sounds familar............


:reinsy

"What?"

ozzman
12-17-2002, 11:41 AM
it just wasnt with us. He was traded to the braves
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1217/1478382.html

ozzman
12-17-2002, 11:53 AM
oops, sorry to double post, didnt see this one

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Lesson learned: HSC (who, sadly, appears to gave gone away) is more reliable than Gammons.

well, no offense to hsc but over at the sox board her "crystal ball" was telling her that we were going to send them konerko so the lesson learned is that no one is all that reliable in these types of situations. few in the organization outside of kw have up to the minute updates at the winter meetings and mere talks about players can get blown way out of proportion pretty easily.

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Exactly. See what happens when you have a competent GM who knows how to run a baseball team. Lose two Hall of Famers (although it may only be one because it sounds like Maddux will be returning) and Schuerholz goes out and gets two more pitchers to bolster his rotation, and basically make the Braves contenders...yet again.

you're missing it though. again the key here is money. the braves got the better players in both of those deals because they ended up taking on nearly ten million a year at least for the next few years. some of that is creativity on the gm's part but moreso, its a willingness to spend on the owner's part. i fail to see how jr's budget determines kw's effectiveness as a gm.

Foulke You
12-17-2002, 01:06 PM
Am I the only one not too upset that this deal fell through? I just had a bad feeling about that one. Especially with an NL pitcher unfamiliar with the AL and Ortiz's high strikeout/walk ratio. I want a pitcher as bad as everyone else here but I just couldn't get too excited about Russ Ortiz especially if it was Lee, Garland, or Konerko that had to be traded.

joecrede
12-17-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Am I the only one not too upset that this deal fell through? I just had a bad feeling about that one. Especially with an NL pitcher unfamiliar with the AL and Ortiz's high strikeout/walk ratio. I want a pitcher as bad as everyone else here but I just couldn't get too excited about Russ Ortiz especially if it was Lee, Garland, or Konerko that had to be traded.

I'd be fine with dealing Konerko for Ortiz IF they didn't stop there. There are/were guys out there who would have replaced Konerko. Durazo, Giles, and D. Ortiz. (I have a hard time believing KW could not have bettered Elmer Dessens for Durazo.) Giles would be the tough one, but I think their is a combination that the Sox could give that would make it work.

HawkDJ
12-17-2002, 03:52 PM
Pease don't bash KW for this one at least. If we were to top Atlanta's offer it would have been at LEAST Lee, Garland and a top prospect and I bet everyone here would be much more mad then they are right now.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 04:29 PM
Hold:

For whatever's it's worth, I posted Ken Rosenthal's comments on the deal on another thread. I had been reading all Summer how the Braves felt Moss had peaked and was passed by, by their other minor league prospects.

They and Rosenthal seem to think Moss isn't that good and never will be.

FYI.

Lip

34rancher
12-17-2002, 07:16 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1217/1478382.html


Oh well, hopefully things happen for a reason.