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View Full Version : Where Do We Go From Here?


hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 10:16 AM
With Ortiz gone, what do people think the Sox should do now?

dougs78
12-17-2002, 10:44 AM
I'd personally love to have Brad Penny, assuming it would not be an overly costly acquisition talent wise. BUt at this point I fear that I am really looking at change for the sake of change. There is really nothing to indicate that any of those 2nd tier guys will have any better chance of success than the youngsters we already have. But sometimes as they say....the grass is always greener......

Jjav829
12-17-2002, 10:53 AM
I am sure Kenny Williams will sign some old washed up pitcher and try to pass him off as a good signing. And that will be the extent of any new pitchers that we will see.

bc2k
12-17-2002, 10:56 AM
Stick with this rotation and maybe Biddle's trade value will be at its highest by the end of the next season. Trade him and get a top tier FA next offseason.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 10:59 AM
I say stick with what they have now. There are no free agents left that I would prefer over the guys we have now (except for Maddux, but I don't think, at age 36, he is worth the 5 year deal Boras is seeking for him). I'd still love to see a trade for a no. 2, but other than Colon or Vazquez, I don't think anyone else is available to fit that bill, and the asking price for those guys appear to be higher than I would be willing to pay.

I think they should re-sign Ritchie to a one year deal and go with Buehrle, Garland, Ritchie, Wright and either Biddle or Rauch. The only caveat I give is that if someone like Valdes, Finley, or Daal could be had for about the same $ or less than Ritchie, I might go for one of those guys instead.

WinningUgly!
12-17-2002, 11:11 AM
Time for JR & KW to grow some stones & throw some money at Maddux, plus keep working on the Expos.

bc2k
12-17-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

I think they should re-sign Ritchie to a one year deal and go with Buehrle, Garland, Ritchie, Wright and either Biddle or Rauch. The only caveat I give is that if someone like Valdes, Finley, or Daal could be had for about the same $ or less than Ritchie, I might go for one of those guys instead.

Would you want to sign one of those three for more than one year? I ask becauseassuming JGar, Wright, and Rauch meet expectations, there would be no room for a top-tier FA next year if Buehrle and Daal have the other two spots.

But I guess if Garland, Rauch, and Wright meet expectations, we wouldn't need a FA #2 next year.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Would you want to sign one of those three for more than one year? I ask becauseassuming JGar, Wright, and Rauch meet expectations, there would be no room for a top-tier FA next year if Buehrle and Daal have the other two spots.

But I guess if Garland, Rauch, and Wright meet expectations, we wouldn't need a FA #2 next year.

I don't think I'd want Finley for more than a year, but I wouldn't be opposed to signing Daal or Valdes to a 2 year deal. However, I would only be in favor of doing so if it meant that we would then trade one of our young studs (e.g., Garland, Wright, Rauch or Biddle) (probably packaged with someone else) for a true no. 2 like Colon or someone like him (although I can't think of a single true no. 2 other than Colon who might be available). Otherwise, I'd go with a one year deal for one of those guys (or for Ritchie) and then see where we stand next off-season when the FA market is better.

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
With Ortiz gone, what do people think the Sox should do now?

i'm not sure signing maddux should be an option because assuming we're evaluating kw's options, if jr tells him he doesn't have the money to sign maddux, then its just not an option. if we could simply reach into reinsdorf's pockets to sign maddux clearly everyone would be in favor of that but i don't think that's an option.

i say stick with what we have. previously i wanted to sign daal or valdes but while i think they're underrated and will come cheap, they're not number two starters and i believe that given the opportunity biddle/rauch can come close to the numbers either of those pitchers would put up for us and maybe even top them.

as i've stated before, personally i think it'd be unconscionable to give up a player such as rauch or garland for colon. colon would be here for one season and any way you spin it i don't think jr would pay colon the money would take to keep him. i also don't think there's any way its guaranteed colon will repeat last season's performance as opposed to his career era of 3.8 and even if he were to repeat his performance last season in no way does that guarantee us anything. i think it'd still be very difficult for us to even move past the division series and by no mean would we be guaranteed anything in terms of wins. i think it'd be horrible to trade 5 or 6 years of a pitcher who is ultimately better than colon to have colon for one season and get nowhere with him.

Chisoxfn
12-17-2002, 01:11 PM
Look for the Sox to consider taking Andy Ashby from the Dodgers. Dodgers are looking to dump him and aren't looking for much anything in return.

Thats just my guess though.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'm not sure signing maddux should be an option because assuming we're evaluating kw's options, if jr tells him he doesn't have the money to sign maddux, then its just not an option. if we could simply reach into reinsdorf's pockets to sign maddux clearly everyone would be in favor of that but i don't think that's an option.

i say stick with what we have. previously i wanted to sign daal or valdes but while i think they're underrated and will come cheap, they're not number two starters and i believe that given the opportunity biddle/rauch can come close to the numbers either of those pitchers would put up for us and maybe even top them.

as i've stated before, personally i think it'd be unconscionable to give up a player such as rauch or garland for colon. colon would be here for one season and any way you spin it i don't think jr would pay colon the money would take to keep him. i also don't think there's any way its guaranteed colon will repeat last season's performance as opposed to his career era of 3.8 and even if he were to repeat his performance last season in no way does that guarantee us anything. i think it'd still be very difficult for us to even move past the division series and by no mean would we be guaranteed anything in terms of wins. i think it'd be horrible to trade 5 or 6 years of a pitcher who is ultimately better than colon to have colon for one season and get nowhere with him.

A couple points:

(1) I don't know whether or not Maddux would be beyond the budget. I believe that as of right now, the Sox are about $10-15 million below last year's opening day payroll. I would think they could sign Maddux for that amount and still be at or about the same payroll they had last year. Of course, we don't know if JR will allow the same payroll as last year, but my guess is that the sticking point with Maddux would be more in terms of years, since Boras is insisting upon 5. If the Sox could get Maddux for 3 years, $30 million, I wouldn't be surprised if JR would open up the purse strings. But I don't think Maddux would accept such a deal.

(2) I would only advocate trading for Colon if the Sox were to sign him to a 3 or 4 year deal. But I still think don't agree with the rest of your analysis of the Colon situation. First of all, you seem to suggest that a career 3.80 ERA isn't that great. I beg to differ. If either Garland or Rauch has a career ERA of 3.80 or lower 5 or 6 years from now, I would be absolutely thrilled. You seem convinced that Rauch and/or Garland will ultimately be better than Colon, but I think that is simply wishful thinking on your part. I mean, it certainly is possible that one or both could turn out to be better than Colon. But it is unlikely. Simply put, most promising young pitchers don't turn into solid top of the rotation pitchers; most fail or get hurt, so the odds are against them, whereas Colon has already proven that he can do the job.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Look for the Sox to consider taking Andy Ashby from the Dodgers. Dodgers are looking to dump him and aren't looking for much anything in return.

Thats just my guess though.

I thought of that too, but I don't think the Sox would pick up salary for a guy who will just take starts away from the young guys and probably won't fair much better. I sure as hell hope they don't do so.

Chisoxfn
12-17-2002, 02:41 PM
Well, if what I'm hearing on the radio stations in LA is true, the Dodgers just want to strictly dump him. They don't care what they get in return as they are looking to find ways to sign Cliff Floyd.

If the Sox could somehow get the Dodgers to eat part of the contract, then this could be a good deal.

I happen to like Ashby a lot, the question is his health. As long as we ain't giving up anything, and I think Ashby is only signed for this season, it would be a good move, imo.

Last season Andy was 9-13 with a 3.91 era. He made 30 starts, but opponents hit just .261 off of him.

cornball
12-17-2002, 02:55 PM
you will know by Friday, to see what they do with Richie.

RichH55
12-17-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by cornball
you will know by Friday, to see what they do with Richie.

I think its a pretty foregone conclusion that he will be back

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
A couple points:

(1) I don't know whether or not Maddux would be beyond the budget. I believe that as of right now, the Sox are about $10-15 million below last year's opening day payroll. I would think they could sign Maddux for that amount and still be at or about the same payroll they had last year. Of course, we don't know if JR will allow the same payroll as last year, but my guess is that the sticking point with Maddux would be more in terms of years, since Boras is insisting upon 5. If the Sox could get Maddux for 3 years, $30 million, I wouldn't be surprised if JR would open up the purse strings. But I don't think Maddux would accept such a deal.

(2) I would only advocate trading for Colon if the Sox were to sign him to a 3 or 4 year deal. But I still think don't agree with the rest of your analysis of the Colon situation. First of all, you seem to suggest that a career 3.80 ERA isn't that great. I beg to differ. If either Garland or Rauch has a career ERA of 3.80 or lower 5 or 6 years from now, I would be absolutely thrilled. You seem convinced that Rauch and/or Garland will ultimately be better than Colon, but I think that is simply wishful thinking on your part. I mean, it certainly is possible that one or both could turn out to be better than Colon. But it is unlikely. Simply put, most promising young pitchers don't turn into solid top of the rotation pitchers; most fail or get hurt, so the odds are against them, whereas Colon has already proven that he can do the job.

you make some good points. i think that reinsdorf might suprise a lot of people and sign maddux if the price were somewhat reasonable. unfortunately there's a huge problem. scott boras. boras is still parading around asking for 15 million a year for five years or something to that effect which no one will pay. i think he thought he was just going to bluff with the threat of arbitration and play that into a long term deal as he did with bonds but i don't think it'll work. no one is going to offer more than 12 million for three years or so and he's just going to have to take arbitration. also, the fact that reinsdorf hates boras would seem to be a roadblock. i think maddux could work for us and jr might suprise a lot of people but not with boras as his agent.

as for colon, i didn't mean to suggest that a 3.8 era is mediocre but i don't think its specacular. a lot of people would like to suggest colon is one of the five or ten best pitchers in baseball. i'll admit he was last year but i'd still take randy johnson, maddux, glavine, oakland's entire big three, buehrle, lowe, pedro, matt morris, and some other starters over him. i think colon is very good just not worth sacrificing a great deal for.

as for garland it might be wishful thinking on my part that he'll be better than colon, but i don't think its all that unrealistic. the thing you have to remember about garland is that he'll still be 23 years old next season. when bartolo colon was 23 he debuted half way through the season and put up an era of 5.6 in 94 ip. garland has amazing stuff and he continues to improve. if you consider his age and the fact that he's held his own in the majors and then some so far, its only reasonable to believe he could be as good as colon or better as long as he continues to improve.

rauch isn't the same as garland, he may be more of a reach but he has minor league credentials very few players have. keeping in mind the fact that none of us have really seen rauch at full strength yet other than maybe two starts at the end of last season we don't really know what to expect from him. the best comparison to guys we've seen in recent years may be buehrle considering how well rauch knows how to pitch. i feel like a guy with his ceiling should at least be given a chance to perform for us at full stregth. we've already developed one pitcher better than colon in the last few years, it may not be likely we'll develop another but its certainly possible. the a's have done it three times over.

gogosoxgogo
12-17-2002, 08:13 PM
I know some of you are going to kill me for saying this, but...

trade Konerko. Now, let me explain myself. I love Paulie. He's a great guy, a wonderful hitter and an outstanding team player to add to the chemistry. However, I think he is over rated. This is not to take anything away from him. I think that Paulie is a superb hitter and one of the best 1st basemen in this league, but I still think that people think of him as more than he is actually worth. I honestly would hate to see him go because he is such a great player and one of my favorite on the Sox, but I think we could pick up something nice for him. I believe that if we package him and a top pitching prospect(s) or something along those lines, we could get one of the top starters in the game today. By the way, I do realize that this is never going to happen, it is just wishful thinking.

hose
12-17-2002, 08:43 PM
[i [/i]
i think that reinsdorf might suprise a lot of people and sign maddux if the price were somewhat reasonable. unfortunately there's a huge problem. scott boras. boras is still parading around asking for 15 million a year for five years or something to that effect which no one will pay. i think he thought he was just going to bluff with the threat of arbitration and play that into a long term deal as he did with bonds but i don't think it'll work. no one is going to offer more than 12 million for three years or so and he's just going to have to take arbitration. also, the fact that reinsdorf hates boras would seem to be a roadblock. i think maddux could work for us and jr might suprise a lot of people but not with boras as his agent.

as for colon, i didn't mean to suggest that a 3.8 era is mediocre but i don't think its specacular. a lot of people would like to suggest colon is one of the five or ten best pitchers in baseball. i'll admit he was last year but i'd still take randy johnson, maddux, glavine, oakland's entire big three, buehrle, lowe, pedro, matt morris, and some other starters over him. i think colon is very good just not worth sacrificing a great deal for.

as for garland it might be wishful thinking on my part that he'll be better than colon, but i don't think its all that unrealistic. the thing you have to remember about garland is that he'll still be 23 years old next season. when bartolo colon was 23 he debuted half way through the season and put up an era of 5.6 in 94 ip. garland has amazing stuff and he continues to improve. if you consider his age and the fact that he's held his own in the majors and then some so far, its only reasonable to believe he could be as good as colon or better as long as he continues to improve.

rauch isn't the same as garland, he may be more of a reach but he has minor league credentials very few players have. keeping in mind the fact that none of us have really seen rauch at full strength yet other than maybe two starts at the end of last season we don't really know what to expect from him. the best comparison to guys we've seen in recent years may be buehrle considering how well rauch knows how to pitch. i feel like a guy with his ceiling should at least be given a chance to perform for us at full stregth. we've already developed one pitcher better than colon in the last few years, it may not be likely we'll develop another but its certainly possible. the a's have done it three times over.


Good post. Garland could develope into a very solid pitcher, and Rauch will be starting off this year w/big league experience and a healthy arm.

OfficerKarkovice
12-17-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
I know some of you are going to kill me for saying this, but...

trade Konerko. Now, let me explain myself. I love Paulie. He's a great guy, a wonderful hitter and an outstanding team player to add to the chemistry. However, I think he is over rated. This is not to take anything away from him. I think that Paulie is a superb hitter and one of the best 1st basemen in this league, but I still think that people think of him as more than he is actually worth. I honestly would hate to see him go because he is such a great player and one of my favorite on the Sox, but I think we could pick up something nice for him. I believe that if we package him and a top pitching prospect(s) or something along those lines, we could get one of the top starters in the game today. By the way, I do realize that this is never going to happen, it is just wishful thinking.

You will get no argument from me.

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
I know some of you are going to kill me for saying this, but...

trade Konerko. Now, let me explain myself. I love Paulie. He's a great guy, a wonderful hitter and an outstanding team player to add to the chemistry. However, I think he is over rated. This is not to take anything away from him. I think that Paulie is a superb hitter and one of the best 1st basemen in this league, but I still think that people think of him as more than he is actually worth. I honestly would hate to see him go because he is such a great player and one of my favorite on the Sox, but I think we could pick up something nice for him. I believe that if we package him and a top pitching prospect(s) or something along those lines, we could get one of the top starters in the game today. By the way, I do realize that this is never going to happen, it is just wishful thinking.

i can't say i disagree with that logic. also, carlos could move over first drastically increasing our outfield defense. i also think carlos would probably be as good or better than paully at first. some people just like to bash him but he came up as a 3B and i remember him making some really nice scoops at first the 5 games he played there with frank out in '99. at the least 1B is of lesser importance defensively than left field. of course all of this assumes that paully's value is actually as high as we think it is and that we could acquire a player that would help the team a great deal in return which are not givens.

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by hose
Good post. Garland could develope into a very solid pitcher, and Rauch will be starting off this year w/big league experience and a healthy arm.

thanks. i don't think we should get too ahead of ourselves but i don't feel like we should lose sight of these pitchers' ceilings just because they're not all stars at 23.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2002, 12:44 AM
The question was asked, "where do we go from here..."

Ummmm, second place?

Lip