PDA

View Full Version : Gammons reports Ortiz to Sox


balboner
12-16-2002, 04:21 PM
On ESPNews, Peter Gammons just said Russ Ortiz would be traded to the White Sox either today or tomorrow. Lets hope to god that this is not for Konerko!

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 04:23 PM
Where oh where is HSC when we need her????

I think Ortiz would be a good pick up, but I hope they don't have to give up PK or CLee to get him. What are the Giants looking for? I would think an OF or a 1B. Gulp.

NewyorkSoxFan
12-16-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Where oh where is HSC when we need her????

I think Ortiz would be a good pick up, but I hope they don't have to give up PK or CLee to get him. What are the Giants looking for? I would think an OF or a 1B. Gulp.

I just heard Gammons, (not that it means much) that said San Fran was looking for a power hitting first baseman. I doubt that means PK. CLee could also be used at first. Or maybe Frank.
:)

NYSF

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I just heard Gammons, (not that it means much) that said San Fran was looking for a power hitting first baseman. I doubt that means PK. CLee could also be used at first. Or maybe Frank.
:)

NYSF

Why would you doubt that means PK? I mean, he's not Jim Thome, but for Ortiz, the Giants would probably expect to get a guy who can club 25-35 HRs. That fits PK to a tee.

cheeses_h_rice
12-16-2002, 04:29 PM
Wow. Big trade, if indeed it is Walnuts.

Where did Ortiz stand in the Giants' rotation? Was he a #2 or #3 guy?

RKMeibalane
12-16-2002, 04:31 PM
I have a bad feeling about this. The Sox need pitching, but Konerko seems an awfully high price to pay in order to accquire someone who may not help all that much.

MetalliSox
12-16-2002, 04:32 PM
If Lenny Williams gives up Carlos Lee or Paul Konerko for Russ Ortiz, I will riot.
Carlos Lee for maybe El Duque, I could accept. But Russ Ortiz is not worth Carlos Lee IMO. And I am one who thinks Lee is very tradeable and would have no ill feelings if we got something in return.
Plus, I think SF has a pretty good LF now. I know Sanders is in RF and they have some young rookie in LF.
Not even KW is stupid enough to trade PK for Ortiz. I can't explain how, but he can't be...I hope.

NewyorkSoxFan
12-16-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Why would you doubt that means PK? I mean, he's not Jim Thome, but for Ortiz, the Giants would probably expect to get a guy who can club 25-35 HRs. That fits PK to a tee.

I would be very upset with that deal, Ortiz is a good pitcher, but now worth PK. Besides they need to trim payroll, so they are kinda up against it. It will be CLee-watch!!


NYSF

RKMeibalane
12-16-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
If Lenny Williams gives up Carlos Lee or Paul Konerko for Russ Ortiz, I will riot.
Carlos Lee for maybe El Duque, I could accept. But Russ Ortiz is not worth Carlos Lee IMO. And I am one who thinks Lee is very tradeable and would have no ill feelings if we got something in return.
Plus, I think SF has a pretty good LF now. I know Sanders is in RF and they have some young rookie in LF.
Not even KW is stupid enough to trade PK for Ortiz. I can't explain how, but he can't be...I hope.

:KW

"Don't look at me. I just do what I'm told."

:reinsy

"Don't look at me either. I'm not the one who won't come to games."

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I have a bad feeling about this. The Sox need pitching, but Konerko seems an awfully high price to pay in order to accquire someone who may not help all that much.

Why don't you think Ortiz would be "very much help at all"? He has averaged over 15 wins per year over the last 4 years and has had an ERA well under 4.00 in 3 of those years. He is 28 and has been very durable as well. I realize he's in the NL and pitches in a pitchers park, but even taking those factors into consideration, he seems like a guy who you could pencil in for 15-17 wins and an ERA in the 3.75 to 4.25 range. That, my friends, is a no. 2 starter and that, as we all know, is what the Sox need. I absolutely love PK and would hate to see him go, and I think CLee may yet have a monster year or two, but I guess I just don't understand why people don't think Ortiz would be a great boost to our starting pitching?

SoxxoS
12-16-2002, 04:36 PM
<<<Carlos Lee for maybe El Duque, I could accept>>>

Russ Ortiz was the #2 starter on the Giants World Series rotation. El Duque may be 43 years old and is injury prone. IMO, Ortiz is MUCH better in the short and long term than El Duque.

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
If Lenny Williams gives up Carlos Lee or Paul Konerko for Russ Ortiz, I will riot.
Carlos Lee for maybe El Duque, I could accept. But Russ Ortiz is not worth Carlos Lee IMO.

El Duque is as old as the hills, and has been hurt and ineffective for the last year or two. Ortiz is young, durable and has put up truly impressive numbers for the last few years. Why the heck would you prefer El Duque?

cheeses_h_rice
12-16-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
If Lenny Williams gives up Carlos Lee or Paul Konerko for Russ Ortiz, I will riot.
Carlos Lee for maybe El Duque, I could accept. But Russ Ortiz is not worth Carlos Lee IMO.

Can I have some of what you're smoking, please?

6 months ago, we all would have traded Lee for a few cases of frankfurters, and now suddenly you wouldn't trade Lee for a fine young pitcher?

NewyorkSoxFan
12-16-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
El Duque is as old as the hills, and has been hurt and ineffective for the last year or two. Ortiz is young, durable and has put up truly impressive numbers for the last few years. Why the heck would you prefer El Duque?

Ditto!! Dibber Then I would have to change teams.

NYSF

balboner
12-16-2002, 04:41 PM
The Giants would trim payroll cause we would take J.T. Snow and his 7.5 million a yr contract along w/Ortiz for Konerko. KW better be careful, someone might go crazy on him if this takes place.

cheeses_h_rice
12-16-2002, 04:44 PM
If it is Konerko, I certainly hope the Sox have some other plans in mind for a defensive first baseman this year.

I can just imagine this Butcher's Row playing first all season...Carlos Lee, Jeff Liefer, Frank Thomas...*shudder*.

OfficerKarkovice
12-16-2002, 04:48 PM
Ortiz is one hell of a pitcher...he came up huge in the playoffs and has been consistent for the last several years. He would easily be a #2 guy on our staff...and on many others staffs for that matter. Whether it is CLee of Konerko, well I have mixed feelings on who I would rather see go I guess.

NewyorkSoxFan
12-16-2002, 04:51 PM
If it is PK, KW must have something else up his sleeve. I cannot imagine him giving him up. I am not saying I wouldn't do the deal, but the sox usually try to trade our recyclables for good players. So I would think this might be move #1 of 2 deals.


NYSF

RibbieRubarb
12-16-2002, 04:52 PM
Oh boy!! This is great, but I hope it's not Konerko. Leifer too, he is a good bench guy. He can play OF and 1B. I think Lee is gone too. Lee and a couple of prospects for Russ Ortiz and an outfield prospect. KW has always got trade three.

OfficerKarkovice
12-16-2002, 04:52 PM
Also...I read someone from San Francisco posting on another board that word out of SF was that it was Ortiz to the Sox for prospects.

guillen4life13
12-16-2002, 04:53 PM
Do you guys have a link? I can't find it on the ESPN.com website.

Thanks

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by balboner
The Giants would trim payroll cause we would take J.T. Snow and his 7.5 million a yr contract along w/Ortiz for Konerko. KW better be careful, someone might go crazy on him if this takes place.

If this is true, I'll bust a gasket. PK for Ortiz would make me nervous, just because I really like PK, but Ortiz is a quality starter. But that is a 1-for-1 trade, in my mind. Why we would take on the Giants' bad contract with Snow in addition is unfathomable. Snow has to be the worst hitting 1B in all of baseball. I don't care how good he is defensively, the Sox would be much better off signing David Ortiz, trading for Jeremy Giambi, or even picking up Brian Daubach and paying one of those guys $1 mm then paying Snow $7.5 mm to hit 6 homers with 52 RBIs. :angry:

cheeses_h_rice
12-16-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Also...I read someone from San Francisco posting on another board that word out of SF was that it was Ortiz to the Sox for prospects.

OK, this I don't get...Ortiz made only $2.8M last year. He's young. He's good. If you're not dumping him for salary purposes, then what are you doing, trading for prospects? That just doesn't ring true to me....

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Also...I read someone from San Francisco posting on another board that word out of SF was that it was Ortiz to the Sox for prospects.

That would be absolutley awesome (assuming the prospects do not include Rauch, Honel, or Borchard). Ortiz for some combination of Malone, Ring, Webster, Munoz, etc., would be a coup! But I'm not counting on it.

NewyorkSoxFan
12-16-2002, 04:58 PM
From what I am hearing, Sabean is desperate to get rid of some money. He can't take back a large salary so prospects might be the thing. I have heard one is a frontline starter. This from my buddy in Palo Alto, Ca.

NYSF

siugrad25
12-16-2002, 04:58 PM
Greetings from sunny FLA.

San Fran can take CLee.

Honestly, I think that trade would definitely bode well in the Sox favor. The Sox need desperately some starting pitching and as long as it's not PK, I think it's a good trade.

CLee has shown flashes of being a good hitter, but don't we have enough OFs to get us through in order to get another SP? And unfortunately for CLee, he can't play vs. the Cubs at Wrigley every day.

PK for Ortiz on the other hand, that's just not right.

siugrad25
12-16-2002, 05:00 PM
Happy days if its for prospects.

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
OK, this I don't get...Ortiz made only $2.8M last year. He's young. He's good. If you're not dumping him for salary purposes, then what are you doing, trading for prospects? That just doesn't ring true to me....

Actually, this does make sense if in fact the Sox are also agreeing to take Snow. If the Giants have to dump salary, they save nearly $10 million by packaging Snow with Ortiz to the Sox for prospects. That would actually be fine with me. We gain our no. 2 starter and don't give up anyone who is ready to contribute now. Snow would prove a very capable back up (albeit a high priced one) at 1B for PK. Wow, I hope that's the trade.

cheeses_h_rice
12-16-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Actually, this does make sense if in fact the Sox are also agreeing to take Snow. If the Giants have to dump salary, they save nearly $10 million by packaging Snow with Ortiz to the Sox for prospects. That would actually be fine with me. We gain our no. 2 starter and don't give up anyone who is ready to contribute now. Snow would prove a very capable back up (albeit a high priced one) at 1B for PK. Wow, I hope that's the trade.

I can't share your enthusiasm for Snow. He is a colossal step down at 1B from Konerko, a position in which you traditionally need a big bat.

But, we shall see....

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I can't share your enthusiasm for Snow. He is a colossal step down at 1B from Konerko, a position in which you traditionally need a big bat.

But, we shall see....

I think you've missed my point; I'm saying its a great trade if its Ortiz and Snow for prospects (which would make sense if the point for the Giants is just to drop salary). We keep PK. Snow is our back up 1B, PK is the starter. As I stated earlier, if its Ortiz and Snow for PK, then I'd be pissed, because I think Ortiz for PK is a pretty fair deal straight up, but I wouldn't want to also be saddled with Snow's contract under those circumstances. But I'd be happy to be saddled with Snow's contract if it means we get to keep PK and only have to deal prospects.

cheeses_h_rice
12-16-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think you've missed my point; I'm saying its a great trade if its Ortiz and Snow for prospects (which would make sense if the point for the Giants is just to drop salary). We keep PK. Snow is our back up 1B, PK is the starter. As I stated earlier, if its Ortiz and Snow for PK, then I'd be pissed, because I think Ortiz for PK is a pretty fair deal straight up, but I wouldn't want to also be saddled with Snow's contract under those circumstances. But I'd be happy to be saddled with Snow's contract if it means we get to keep PK and only have to deal prospects.

Then the Sox are way backed up at 1B, given that Frank said he wants to play more this year. Snow would then be one very expensive bench-warmer. Maybe Snow could play LF or something and we can package Lee to someone else....

CLR01
12-16-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Actually, this does make sense if in fact the Sox are also agreeing to take Snow. If the Giants have to dump salary, they save nearly $10 million by packaging Snow with Ortiz to the Sox for prospects. That would actually be fine with me. We gain our no. 2 starter and don't give up anyone who is ready to contribute now. Snow would prove a very capable back up (albeit a high priced one) at 1B for PK. Wow, I hope that's the trade.


The sox are not going to pay Snow 6+ million to ride the pine. If they get him and the giants dont pay any of his salary you can bet your ass konerko is gone.

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Then the Sox are way backed up at 1B, given that Frank said he wants to play more this year. Snow would then be one very expensive bench-warmer. Maybe Snow could play LF or something and we can package Lee to someone else....

Ahh! Now you're really scaring me. Snow would be an okay back-up at 1B because he is great defensively and has a left handed bat. But as a starting LF in the AL? No way. Who cares if he would be an expensive bench warmer. If that's what it takes to get Ortiz without giving up PK or CLee, so be it. I would be very impressed with the Sox if this was the deal. But that's why I'm skeptical. They would be backed-up at first, but who cares - it just means Frank won't get playing time there and Liefer would likely be sent packing. Ritchie probably would be, too (since they'd be taking on $10 mm in payroll, I'd imagine they'd be more inclined to pay Biddle or Rauch the MLB minimum at the 5th starter spot than to pay Ritchie $2.5 mm).

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
The sox are not going to pay Snow 6+ million to ride the pine. If they get him and the giants dont pay any of his salary you can bet your ass konerko is gone.

You're probably right. But that would be a dog sh*t trade for the Sox; they shouldn't have to take on $10 mm in payroll if they're giving up PK.

NewyorkSoxFan
12-16-2002, 05:28 PM
What happened to Colon and Vidro for Leifer, and Josh Paul?
Where is HSC when you need her?

NYSF :smile:

oldcomiskey
12-16-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
If Lenny Williams gives up Carlos Lee or Paul Konerko for Russ Ortiz, I will riot.
Carlos Lee for maybe El Duque, I could accept. But Russ Ortiz is not worth Carlos Lee IMO. And I am one who thinks Lee is very tradeable and would have no ill feelings if we got something in return.
Plus, I think SF has a pretty good LF now. I know Sanders is in RF and they have some young rookie in LF.
Not even KW is stupid enough to trade PK for Ortiz. I can't explain how, but he can't be...I hope.

I have a problem with you rather having El Duque for Konerko and not Ortiz!!! You must be kidding

Hullett_Fan
12-16-2002, 05:38 PM
You're probably right. But that would be a dog sh*t trade for the Sox; they shouldn't have to take on $10 mm in payroll if they're giving up PK.


:KW

"Dog sh*t trades are my specialty."


IMO, no way Uncle Jerry takes on $10mil contract of an average first baseman. I bet Rauch is the main prospect in the deal and it's 2 or 3 prospects straight-up for Ortiz. I'll be pissed off in a week when I read that the Yankmees got Colon for 3 lesser prospects than we give up for Ortiz.

OEO Magglio
12-16-2002, 05:42 PM
First of all if this is for the right prospects, this is a great trade, Ortiz is definetly a number 2 starter, and I believe during the season he was San Fran's number 1, he's had his era under 4 the last couple of years, this would be a great pickup, and I also think Snow is a good backup even though he makes a lot of money, but he's a great defensive player, and he's a left handed hitter off the bench.

MetalliSox
12-16-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
I have a problem with you rather having El Duque for Konerko and not Ortiz!!! You must be kidding

Woah, Woah, Woah. I never said I would give up PK for Ortiz. Never would that happen. Do I think CLee for Ortiz is a good deal for us? Of course.
I said I would rather have El Duque then Ortiz for CLee if it was possible. People saying El Duque is 43 is ridiculous. He is probably 33 at the oldest. He doesn't have arm problems. And excuse me for going on his post season record.
El Duque has gotten screwed in NY is a way. El Duque probably should of started against Anahiem instead of Pettite or even Clemens. I rarely see him get bombed, give up BB after BB, or have short outings. Of course, every pitcher has games like those, but Hernandez hardly does.
I can not comment on Ortiz. Looking at Ortiz's stats in the past few years, I would be stupid to say I don't want him.
Everyone pick on the newbie! :?:

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
Woah, Woah, Woah. I never said I would give up PK for Ortiz. Never would that happen. Do I think CLee for Ortiz is a good deal for us? Of course.
I said I would rather have El Duque then Ortiz for CLee if it was possible. People saying El Duque is 43 is ridiculous. He is probably 33 at the oldest. He doesn't have arm problems. And excuse me for going on his post season record.
El Duque has gotten screwed in NY is a way. El Duque probably should of started against Anahiem instead of Pettite or even Clemens. I rarely see him get bombed, give up BB after BB, or have short outings. Of course, every pitcher has games like those, but Hernandez hardly does.
I can not comment on Ortiz. Looking at Ortiz's stats in the past few years, I would be stupid to say I don't want him.
Everyone pick on the newbie! :?:

El Duque is 33 at the youngest, but rumors continue to abound that he is considerably older than that. And he has missed signficant portions of both 2002 and 2001 with injuries. He's okay, and I'd take him in a heart beat if we only had to move prospects other than the big 3 (Borchard, Rauch, Honel) for him, but no way am I trading CLee or PK for a guy who is probably at least 35 who has been injured for the last 2 years.

pudge
12-16-2002, 06:08 PM
I'm afraid of any starter who walks a lot of batters... and no pitcher in the lineup to bail him out... anybody else invision Ortiz getting rocked in the AL??

Hangar18
12-16-2002, 06:08 PM
Ortiz for Konerko and Lee.....
No Way......I dont make this trade.
1st of all......SF is trying to give the guy away...
Why cant we steal him kind of like the Flubs did
with Matt Clement ??? (by the way...thats the trade
KW shouldve made)
this Trade Better Not Happen.

Huisj
12-16-2002, 06:16 PM
things i worry about with ortiz--
-he's thrown a lot of innings
-he still walks an awful lot of batters
-his strikeout rates have declined a lot recently

he could do ok, but he's not worth giving up konerko or lee or even rauch or other prospects. those players are too valuable to the sox.

RedPinStripes
12-16-2002, 06:17 PM
Damn i hope they trade that dumbass we put in LF for Ortiz. That cant be straight up though. We'll have to give them prospects and cash to make it complete. If JT Snow comes into the picture, it's going to be 1 big Cluster **** unless he get moved immediatly.

pissonthecubs
12-16-2002, 06:35 PM
i think getting Ortiz would be a great pick up for the Sox but as dumb as Kenny Williams is, i doubt that PK is going anywhere in a trade. also don't the Twinkies have a all-star first basemen? where would Konerko fit in? DH if anywhere.

_____________________
"It takes hundreds of Nuts to build a motorcycle, and just one in a car to wreck it."

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by pissonthecubs
i think getting Ortiz would be a great pick up for the Sox but as dumb as Kenny Williams is, i doubt that PK is going anywhere in a trade. also don't the Twinkies have a all-star first basemen? where would Konerko fit in? DH if anywhere.

_____________________
"It takes hundreds of Nuts to build a motorcycle, and just one in a car to wreck it."

You're confusing your Ortizes (sp?). The rumored deal is PK for pitcher Russ Ortiz of the Giants. David Ortiz was released by the Twins and is therefore a free agent.

SoxxoS
12-16-2002, 06:55 PM
I am finding it hard to believe that nobody knows what is going to be involved in the trade yet. I have heard prospects, just Lee, just Konerko, Ortiz and Snow together...etc. You think if ESPN broke this story, they would have a good idea as to what the Sox are giving up... :?:

dickallen15
12-16-2002, 07:01 PM
We do know KW will probably be cutting a check to the Giants

Hullett_Fan
12-16-2002, 07:04 PM
anybody else invision Ortiz getting rocked in the AL?

Yes...he's the second-coming of Toad Ritchie (though I think Toad will have a slight rebound this season...).

Ughhh. If we're serious about this season and want to pick up a starter, then trade for Colon or Vasquez. Don't give up decent prospect(s) for a 50/50 proposition like Ortiz. This guy would be a number 4 starter on the Cubs (of all teams).

If not Colon or Vazquez (or Maddux ), we should go with what we've got and try again next offseason.

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Yes...he's the second-coming of Toad Ritchie (though I think Toad will have a slight rebound this season...).

Ughhh. If we're serious about this season and want to pick up a starter, then trade for Colon or Vasquez. Don't give up decent prospect(s) for a 50/50 proposition like Ortiz. This guy would be a number 4 starter on the Cubs (of all teams).

If not Colon or Vazquez (or Maddux ), we should go with what we've got and try again next offseason.

I have never seen Ortiz pitch in person and I don't know a lot about him. But he has won 14, 17, 14 and 18 games over the last 4 years, with ERAs of 3.61, 3.29, 5.01 and 3.81 during those years. Aside from the lousy ERA in '00, those are damn impressive numbers. And he's only 28. Those numbers are MUCH more impressive than Ritchie's with Pittsburgh. Can you explain to me why you think he'd flame out?

jeremyb1
12-16-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Yes...he's the second-coming of Toad Ritchie (though I think Toad will have a slight rebound this season...).


i have concerns about ortiz but he's not ritchie. ritchie had one season in the nl in which he had an era under 4. ortiz on the other hand has done it 3 out of the last 4 seasons.

the key to this deal if you ask me is that we don't give up any young pitchers that are ready to contribute right now. if garland or rauch are in this deal i'll be very upset because they'll be better than ortiz in no time if they aren't already. i wouldn't even want to include wright because he can do a decent job in the rotation this season. the key is to upgrade the rotation for this season and while i wouldn't be happy to lose c lee or konerko that means not dealing any guys that figure to contribute in the rotation this season.

pudge
12-16-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I have never seen Ortiz pitch in person and I don't know a lot about him. But he has won 14, 17, 14 and 18 games over the last 4 years, with ERAs of 3.61, 3.29, 5.01 and 3.81 during those years. Aside from the lousy ERA in '00, those are damn impressive numbers. And he's only 28. Those numbers are MUCH more impressive than Ritchie's with Pittsburgh. Can you explain to me why you think he'd flame out?

Ritchie is a stretch, but look at Ortiz's walk totals... the #8 and #9 hitters in an NL lineup allow a pitcher to get bailed out when he puts a lot of runners on base. Not to mention the Sox like to make errors, making Ortiz's high WHIP even more frightening. There's also the concern that Dusty overused him the past few years. I'm not saying he'll be a bust, just saying that there is potential for disaster. Remember, this is a guy who was expected to be a 20-game winner last season and only ended up with 14.

MarkEdward
12-16-2002, 07:32 PM
So is anybody beside Peter Gammons and a message board reporting this?

HawkDJ
12-16-2002, 07:35 PM
Someone told me but I can't confirm that it was reported on the radio.

Hullett_Fan
12-16-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Hold2Dibber:
Can you explain to me why you think he'd flame out?[ /QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by jeremyb1:
...if garland or rauch are in this deal i'll be very upset because they'll be better than ortiz in no time if they aren't already. i wouldn't even want to include wright because he can do a decent job in the rotation this season.


Originally Posted by pudge
Ritchie is a stretch, but look at Ortiz's walk totals... the #8 and #9 hitters in an NL lineup allow a pitcher to get bailed out when he puts a lot of runners on base. Not to mention the Sox like to make errors, making Ortiz's high WHIP even more frightening. There's also the concern that Dusty overused him the past few years.

My thoughts as well. I just think that Garland, Rauch, Wright are capable of putting up numbers similar to what I envision Ortiz doing 4.00 ERA, 15 Wins.

Ortiz does have better career stats then Ritchie, only used him as an example of us acquiring a guy, putting him in as a #2 starter and then being let down when he turns out being more like a #4 starter. I'd be happy with Ortiz if we acquire a real #2 as well. I'll hope for the best.

Daver
12-16-2002, 07:50 PM
You folks are showing an awful lot of faith in good ole :boston



Am I the only one that remembers him reporting Magglio would be traded a week before he was signed to a three year deal?

Or him reporting that Frank Thomas would not return to the White Sox this year?

I'll beleive it I see it,not when Gammons tells me it is going to happen.

:)

jeremyb1
12-16-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by daver
You folks are showing an awful lot of faith in good ole :boston



Am I the only one that remembers him reporting Magglio would be traded a week before he was signed to a three year deal?

Or him reporting that Frank Thomas would not return to the White Sox this year?

I'll beleive it I see it,not when Gammons tells me it is going to happen.


those were general predictions though. this is a statement that a deal is agreed upon. there's a pretty big difference if you ask me.

Hullett_Fan
12-16-2002, 07:55 PM
:boston


And my beloved Red Sox will bring Clemens back home and swing a deal for both Colon and Vasquez. Pass the chowdah...

:)

spataro51
12-16-2002, 08:00 PM
I didn't see what gammons said, but my friend called and told me what was going on. I really can't see giving up PK for him. I just read on the espn peter gammons section and he didn't say nothing about the sox being close on a deal at all. As far as i am concerned I will believe it when I see it...... but if it is true we better be giving up C Lee and maybe Liefer can't he play first base, heck give them biddle too! PK and his offense is to valuable to our lineup, who knows what kind of year frank is going to have. The giants are in this to lower the payroll not raise it!

Bobby Thigpen
12-16-2002, 08:01 PM
If this trade goes through I may have to ignore baseball altogether. This could be the king of all stupid Sox trades. As I stated in an earlier thread the idea of trading away a guy who can hit .300, 30hrs, 100 rbi a season for the next 5 to 7 years and actually likes playing on the Southside is idiotic. Especially for a guy that few of us have heard of before this season. (OK maybe just me) The Sox are not THAT desperate for pitching. This could end my life as a Sox fan, and baseball as well.

:angry:

jeremyb1
12-16-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
If this trade goes through I may have to ignore baseball altogether. This could be the king of all stupid Sox trades. As I stated in an earlier thread the idea of trading away a guy who can hit .300, 30hrs, 100 rbi a season for the next 5 to 7 years and actually likes playing on the Southside is idiotic. Especially for a guy that few of us have heard of before this season. (OK maybe just me) The Sox are not THAT desperate for pitching. This could end my life as a Sox fan, and baseball as well.


i really don't think it'll be konerko. the only reason anyone has suggested that is rumors that the giants would like konerko. of course they would like him but that doesn't mean we're at all willing to give him up. this deal is supposedly a salary dump for the giants and if they received konerko or colon, they would save very little money unless another player is thrown into the deal.

spataro51
12-16-2002, 08:05 PM
Hey Bobby... Us Sox FAns never give up. We all say that we will never be a sox fan again and that Black and white force brings us back within a few weeks. Kw would never hear the end of it if he gives up PK, that would defeat the whole purpose of locking him into his new contract, what less then 2 months ago.

Jjav829
12-16-2002, 08:07 PM
Im surprised that Gammons has taken time away from having wet dreams about Vazquez in the Red Sox rotation to give us a rumor about Ortiz to the White Sox.

Soxheads
12-16-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Im surprised that Gammons has taken time away from having wet dreams about Vazquez in the Red Sox rotation to give us a rumor about Ortiz to the White Sox.

*****!!!

Jerry_Manuel
12-16-2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Im surprised that Gammons has taken time away from having wet dreams about Vazquez in the Red Sox rotation to give us a rumor about Ortiz to the White Sox.

Gives people something else to talk about here besides for Pete Rose.

OfficerKarkovice
12-16-2002, 08:18 PM
Here is what I would try to work on if I were Kenny Williams, but once again, I am not so who knows.

White Sox trade:

Paul Konerko
(1) of Josh Stewart or Matt Ginter

Giants Trade:

Russ Ortiz
J.T. Snow
(1) of Boof Bonser or Jerome Williams

SoxxoS
12-16-2002, 08:21 PM
Who is worse

Gammons and his Boston Red Sox infatuation

or

Dick Vitale and his Duke Blue Devils infatuation?

I think Vitale takes the cake on that one...although they are both horrible. :)

jeremyb1
12-16-2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Who is worse

Gammons and his Boston Red Sox infatuation

or

Dick Vitale and his Duke Blue Devils infatuation?

I think Vitale takes the cake on that one...although they are both horrible. :)

definately vitale. at least the red sox aren't all that great. it wouldn't be the same unless gammons had a yankees infatuation. then that'd be unbearable.

Bobby Thigpen
12-16-2002, 09:09 PM
I don't know, this could probably do it for my career as a baseball fan. I can't recall the last time I watched a full game that didn't involve the Sox. Whether this makes me a bad baseball fan or not I don't know. (it probably does) Baseball just isn't that interesting for me outside of what's going on with the Sox. I just don't understand how trading a budding star for a no name run of the mill pitcher is a good idea. And for all of you arguing that Ortiz has averaged 15 wins a year, it because he was on a great team. Do you honestly believe he would average that many with the Sox? I think it would also be public relations suicide to get rid of Pauly. He's probably our most recognizable player (outside of Chicago). I mean I've recently talked to fans of the Cardinals who had no idea who Magglio Ordonez was, but they new Pauly because of the homerun derby. I just think this is a terrible idea. EVEN WORSE THAN BRINGING BACK ALOMAR.

OEO Magglio
12-16-2002, 09:30 PM
C'mon now, Ortiz is definetly a number two starter, yes he's been on a good team, but they didn't make the playoffs in 2001, and Ortiz still has had his era in the 3's, yes he's played in the NL, but he's definetly a number 2 that could fit in with Sox, but no way do I want to see PK traded.

WinningUgly!
12-16-2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Who is worse

Gammons and his Boston Red Sox infatuation

or

Dick Vitale and his Duke Blue Devils infatuation?

I think Vitale takes the cake on that one...although they are both horrible. :)

Duke Vitale!

Nah, Gammons is a lot worse by longshot. I'll bet he has on a pair of Red Sox underoos right now.

lowesox
12-16-2002, 10:01 PM
Paul Konerko is the heart and soul of the WhiteSox. I think he means too much to the club house for any GM in their right mind to trade him. BUT if I'm a GM, and I've seen KW get fleeced again and again there's no way I'm not going to get a piece of the action.

Unlike most Sox fans I really like Lee, but I think Ortiz is a genuine no. 2 man. I think that would actually be a pretty even trade.

My concern: I don't want Jeff Liefer to slide into the starting batting order. Am I alone here?

Jerry_Manuel
12-16-2002, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
My concern: I don't want Jeff Liefer to slide into the starting batting order. Am I alone here?

No.

Nobody likes Jeff Liefer.

CHISOXFAN13
12-16-2002, 11:50 PM
For days you people bitch about Kenny not adding anything. So when we talk about bringing in a legitimate No. 2 starter, we start comparisons to Ritchie and suddenly decide that Carlos Lee is not a headache anymore.

If we can dump Lee and a mid-level prospect for Ortiz, this is exactly what we need.

I hope it comes true. I want to win, dammit. Dumping Lee for Ortiz certainly won't hurt that chance

pearso66
12-17-2002, 12:09 AM
i think that lee for ortiz would be a great trade, we have players to replace lee in left field. what i dont want to see is PK for ortiz, but if this is a salary dump like ive been hearing, that wont happen

rmusacch
12-17-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think you've missed my point; I'm saying its a great trade if its Ortiz and Snow for prospects (which would make sense if the point for the Giants is just to drop salary). We keep PK. Snow is our back up 1B, PK is the starter. As I stated earlier, if its Ortiz and Snow for PK, then I'd be pissed, because I think Ortiz for PK is a pretty fair deal straight up, but I wouldn't want to also be saddled with Snow's contract under those circumstances. But I'd be happy to be saddled with Snow's contract if it means we get to keep PK and only have to deal prospects.

Per HSC on the whitesox.com board, she is hearing that it will be Konerko to go west. I will be pissed if it is him. It does not make sense to acquire JT as we already have enough 1b/DH types.

OfficerKarkovice
12-17-2002, 12:25 AM
From ESPN.com:

NASHVILLE -- The Giants' party was scheduled to leave the winter meetings and fly home Monday night.

Instead, they changed their flights, checked back into their rooms and were talking about potential deals involving Russ Ortiz.

The most likely destination for Ortiz at the moment: the White Sox, for prospects.

The Giants are over budget. And Ortiz will make $4.2 million next year. Coincidentally, Edgardo Alfonzo just signed a deal in which his salary next year, counting his prorated signing bonus, happens to be $4 million.

OfficerKarkovice
12-17-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Per HSC on the whitesox.com board, she is hearing that it will be Konerko to go west. I will be pissed if it is him. It does not make sense to acquire JT as we already have enough 1b/DH types.

I won't be...as long as we send them PK and maybe a low prospect for JT Snow, Ortiz, and either Boof Bonser or Jerome Williams.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 01:17 AM
For what it's worth, Phil Rogers just reported the deal was Ortiz for Liefer, Harris and a minor league prospect (Malone / Stewart) and the Sox said "no..."

Lip

pudge
12-17-2002, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For what it's worth, Phil Rogers just reported the deal was Ortiz for Liefer, Harris and a minor league prospect (Malone / Stewart) and the Sox said "no..."

Lip

Come on, Lip - read the quote you posted in the other thread - it DOES NOT say the Sox said "No" to anything for sure... maybe they were leaning in one direction and the Giants were the ones to say no, we do not know anything for sure, and Rogers did not say that anything specific was rejected.... This is very unfair, and these are the kinds of posts that get people PO'ed on this board.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 01:51 AM
Granted a poor choice of words on my part but whatever words or semantics you want to use, the Sox did NOT complete the deal did they?

And Rogers listed the players involved, he specifically mentioned Harris, Liefer and a prospect. How much more specific can you be?

I know...you're reply is going to be "it depends on the prospect." That's where we disagree... to me it doesn't matter if an unproven kid is a first round pick or a 40th round pick. They are all "maybes" in my book If I have a chance to get a proven major league pitcher for a bunch of "wanna be's" I do it in a heartbeat.

If I'm wrong, then I go out and trade MORE wanna be's to make up for it. It's the George Allen philosophy in me---win NOW because tomorrow never comes (at least for the Sox)

Lip

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Granted a poor choice of words on my part but whatever words or semantics you want to use, the Sox did NOT complete the deal did they?

And Rogers listed the players involved, he specifically mentioned Harris, Liefer and a prospect. How much more specific can you be?

I know...you're reply is going to be "it depends on the prospect." That's where we disagree... to me it doesn't matter if an unproven kid is a first round pick or a 40th round pick. They are all "maybes" in my book If I have a chance to get a proven major league pitcher for a bunch of "wanna be's" I do it in a heartbeat.

If I'm wrong, then I go out and trade MORE wanna be's to make up for it. It's the George Allen philosophy in me---win NOW because tomorrow never comes (at least for the Sox)


i'd be willing to trade most prospects other than rauch, borchard, honel, and maybe webster but who knows that that's even enough to get a deal done. the only thing we know from rogers is that we offered some prospects and the deal didn't happen. your statement that we should trade any and all prospects the giants ask for because they're all "wanna be's" is ridiculous.

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
From ESPN.com:

that's pretty suprising considering rogers seemed to dismiss the possibility of a deal. if we can make a deal for prospects that doesn't invovle rauch, honel, borchard or maybe webster, i think that'd be wonderful.

VeeckAsInWreck
12-17-2002, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
For days you people bitch about Kenny not adding anything. So when we talk about bringing in a legitimate No. 2 starter, we start comparisons to Ritchie and suddenly decide that Carlos Lee is not a headache anymore.

If we can dump Lee and a mid-level prospect for Ortiz, this is exactly what we need.

I hope it comes true. I want to win, dammit. Dumping Lee for Ortiz certainly won't hurt that chance


I couldn't agree with you any more than that. I come to this site to see what my fellow Sox fans have to say, and for the most part all of you bitch and moan about what KW is or isn't doing. Not to mention how uptight you all get whenever any prospects are brought up in trade talks. The Yankees don't worry about their farm system, they just bring in the guys that can do the job. I hope this Ortiz deal gets done and that C.Lee plays his home games at Pac-Bell next year.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Granted a poor choice of words on my part but whatever words or semantics you want to use, the Sox did NOT complete the deal did they?

And Rogers listed the players involved, he specifically mentioned Harris, Liefer and a prospect. How much more specific can you be?

I know...you're reply is going to be "it depends on the prospect." That's where we disagree... to me it doesn't matter if an unproven kid is a first round pick or a 40th round pick. They are all "maybes" in my book If I have a chance to get a proven major league pitcher for a bunch of "wanna be's" I do it in a heartbeat.

If I'm wrong, then I go out and trade MORE wanna be's to make up for it. It's the George Allen philosophy in me---win NOW because tomorrow never comes (at least for the Sox)

Lip

Come on, it wasn't just a "poor choice of words" it was a plainly misleading and untrue statement. I understand your frustration with the deal not getting done (yet), but that doesn't mean it was the Sox' fault. Maybe the Giants simply decided that they wanted to keep Ortiz and walked away. There is nothing in Rogers report to suggest that the Sox said "no". That is just one of many possibilities, and to report it as fact strikes me as deliberately misleading.

With that said, I tend to agree with your general sentiment regarding prospects, but that doesn't mean they should have done the deal. What if the Giants insited upon Rauch and Borchard? I don't think that would be a smart deal. Or what if KW had already talked to Minaya and knew he could get Vazquez or Colon for the same guys the Giants were after? I think we should wait and see what happens here before we rip KW apart.

Bobby Thigpen
12-17-2002, 09:30 AM
Please forgive me for all of my gloom and doom yesterday. Yesterday was a terrible day to begin with and then I find out that the Sox may get rid of PK. That was about the last straw for me. Hopefully with some good counseling I'll be alright.

:)

Hangar18
12-17-2002, 10:22 AM
If we Lose Konerko......
Theres going to be trouble on 35th Street...

moochpuppy
12-17-2002, 11:59 AM
DOH!!

Don't you guys know yet not to listen to anything Gammons has to say?

FarWestChicago
12-17-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
DOH!!

Don't you guys know yet not to listen to anything Gammons has to say? They will learn some day, mooch. :D:

:boston

Why does everybody forget I accurately predicted World War I???

WinningUgly!
12-17-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago

:boston

Why does everybody forget I accurately predicted World War I???

That's why they put his picture on the $20 bill. :D:

Hangar18
12-17-2002, 12:39 PM
Thanks for the update on Soothsayer Gammons.
I was getting a little nervous there fellas.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 12:45 PM
Hold:

Ortiz to the Braves for Damian Moss (who according to The Sporting News was only going to figure in the Braves plans for 2003 by default. Appartently they got tired real quick of the fact the he didn't develop as quickly as some of their other guys.)

Just the basic deal Rogers reported would be worth more to the Giants then what they got from Atlanta so I have to conclude (and this time it won't be a poor choice of words..) that the Sox said "No." and that the Giants proposed the two for one plus a prospect. (Since in my opinion what the Sox would have turned over would have been better then what Atlanta gave up)

Gotta envy teams like the Braves who have a good GM, he got two starters for basically nothing and got other teams (Rockies, marlins to help pay for it...sigh)

Lip

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hold:

Ortiz to the Braves for Damian Moss (who according to The Sporting News was only going to figure in the Braves plans for 2003 by default. Appartently they got tired real quick of the fact the he didn't develop as quickly as some of their other guys.)

Just the basic deal Rogers reported would be worth more to the Giants then what they got from Atlanta so I have to conclude (and this time it won't be a poor choice of words..) that the Sox said "No." and that the Giants proposed the two for one plus a prospect. (Since in my opinion what the Sox would have turned over would have been better then what Atlanta gave up)

Gotta envy teams like the Braves who have a good GM, he got two starters for basically nothing and got other teams (Rockies, marlins to help pay for it...sigh)

Lip

Lip, I'm afraid your pessimism and dislike for KW (both of which are well deserved) have left you without the ability to rationally analyze this deal. I do not see how you can suggest with a straight face that Liefer, Harris and either Stewart or Malone would be better for the Giants than Moss and the prospect they received? Moss was awfully good last year and the Giants, had they taken the Sox deal, would have been acquiring a guy who hasn't proven he can hit consistently in the majors (Liefer), a guy who clearly is not ready to hit in the majors (Harris), and a minor leaguer. Their rotation would have been substantially worse, and they would have, at best, two new marginal bench players. The Giants, obviously, are in "win now" mode and the reported trade wtih the Sox would have made the Giants worse.

Moss, OTOH, was a solid MLB starter last year, going 12-6 with a 3.42 ERA (better than Ortiz' 3.61 ERA, by the way, despite the fact that Moss pitching in a hitter's park and Ortiz pitched in a pitcher's park). Moss was just as good as Ortiz last year, but is 2 years younger and considerably cheaper. Hmmm, would you prefer a solid, young, proven left handed starter and a decent prospect, or two marginal bench guys and a prospect? The Giants made the right move. I doubt that the Giants would have even taken Rauch or Garland over Moss. The Sox were offering garbage.

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
I couldn't agree with you any more than that. I come to this site to see what my fellow Sox fans have to say, and for the most part all of you bitch and moan about what KW is or isn't doing. Not to mention how uptight you all get whenever any prospects are brought up in trade talks. The Yankees don't worry about their farm system, they just bring in the guys that can do the job. I hope this Ortiz deal gets done and that C.Lee plays his home games at Pac-Bell next year.

i strongly agree with the first part of your statement but you seem to fail to understand what it takes to build a team when the owner only allows for a 40 or 50 million dollar payroll in today's game. see, the yankees can afford to trade away any and all of their prospects because just in the last few years they have signed giambi, mussina, david wells, etc. when the yankees have a hole they sign a superstar. the most expensive free agent we've signed since albert belle as far as i know is probably sandy alomar at 3 million a year. we can't or won't pay free agents so we are forced to build entire teams from young talent.

look at our current roster: olivo acquired as a minor leaguer from the a's and paul who is homegrown at catcher, paully who we traded for at a young age who had very little major league experience, ditto for jiminez at 2B, valentin is an exception, crede is homegrown, as is our entire outfield. our dh, the best player in franchise history, was also homegrown. our rotation features three home grown pitchers (four if ritchie isn't in the rotation) and another we traded for when he was 18 in garland. our pen should also feature at least several home grown pitchers this season. this is why people get "uptight" when we talk about dealing prospects. if we trade away our best prospects it seriously undermines any chance we have of being successful several years down the line.

assuming our payroll stays at 50 million, we're not going to be able to resign garland, buehrle, konerko, maggs, carlos, and frank once they hit free agency nor are we going to be able to replace them with superstars via free agency. we'll need good young players to fill in.

Paulwny
12-17-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1

assuming our payroll stays at 50 million, we're not going to be able to resign garland, buehrle, konerko, maggs, carlos, and frank once they hit free agency nor are we going to be able to replace them with superstars via free agency. we'll need good young players to fill in.


And then when these players fully develop they'll leave via fa, we'll be the minor league team for the clubs willing to spend.

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i strongly agree with the first part of your statement but you seem to fail to understand what it takes to build a team when the owner only allows for a 40 or 50 million dollar payroll in today's game. see, the yankees can afford to trade away any and all of their prospects because just in the last few years they have signed giambi, mussina, david wells, etc. when the yankees have a hole they sign a superstar. the most expensive free agent we've signed since albert belle as far as i know is probably sandy alomar at 3 million a year. we can't or won't pay free agents so we are forced to build entire teams from young talent.

look at our current roster: olivo acquired as a minor leaguer from the a's and paul who is homegrown at catcher, paully who we traded for at a young age who had very little major league experience, ditto for jiminez at 2B, valentin is an exception, crede is homegrown, as is our entire outfield. our dh, the best player in franchise history, was also homegrown. our rotation features three home grown pitchers (four if ritchie isn't in the rotation) and another we traded for when he was 18 in garland. our pen should also feature at least several home grown pitchers this season. this is why people get "uptight" when we talk about dealing prospects. if we trade away our best prospects it seriously undermines any chance we have of being successful several years down the line.

assuming our payroll stays at 50 million, we're not going to be able to resign garland, buehrle, konerko, maggs, carlos, and frank once they hit free agency nor are we going to be able to replace them with superstars via free agency. we'll need good young players to fill in.

It's rough being in a small market like Chicago; too bad we're not in a big market like Seattle or Atlanta. Those guys really have it made.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 05:41 PM
Hold:

FYI:

Willie Harris would be an upgrade of Shawn Dunston, a utility guy who can run, since Dunston wasn't coming back.

Jeff Liefer showed in 2001 he's capable of putting up some decent power numbers. Reggie Sanders is not coming back and the Giants were looking for anybody who could help in that department That also would be an upgrade.

The Sox minor league pitching prospect, who knows?

According to all the reports that I read over the Summer, Moss had peaked and would not get any better. Atlanta got rid of him and found a sucker because they were tired of him.

Yes the Sox deal offered a better upside for San Francisco. (in my opinion) that's why I concluded it was the Sox who froze, not San Francisco.

Also DON'T think for a minute that Liefer didn't know about these rumors. I bring that up because in July when he's bitching about not playing, I don't want to read any posts here at WSI about how he's a bad guy.

The Sox had a chance to deal him off, keep a happier clubhouse (which with what could happen with Frank Thomas is a powderkeg waiting to go off...) AND get a solid starting pitcher and DID NOTHING.

Lip

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hold:

FYI:

Willie Harris would be an upgrade of Shawn Dunston, a utility guy who can run, since Dunston wasn't coming back.

Jeff Liefer showed in 2001 he's capable of putting up some decent power numbers. Reggie Sanders is not coming back and the Giants were looking for anybody who could help in that department That also would be an upgrade.

The Sox minor league pitching prospect, who knows?

According to all the reports that I read over the Summer, Moss had peaked and would not get any better. Atlanta got rid of him and found a sucker because they were tired of him.

Yes the Sox deal offered a better upside for San Francisco. (in my opinion) that's why I concluded it was the Sox who froze, not San Francisco.

Also DON'T think for a minute that Liefer didn't know about these rumors. I bring that up because in July when he's bitching about not playing, I don't want to read any posts here at WSI about how he's a bad guy.

The Sox had a chance to deal him off, keep a happier clubhouse (which with what could happen with Frank Thomas is a powderkeg waiting to go off...) AND get a solid starting pitcher and DID NOTHING.

Lip

I strongly disagree with your assesment of the guys the Sox offered, but we'll just agree to disagree.

And I still say it is nothing but conjecture (and rather unlikely conjecture, IMHO) to suggest that the Sox could have obtained Ortiz. We don't know what the Giants were asking for or what it would have taken to beat the Braves' offer. Although it is true that the Sox did nothing, that doesn't mean that doing nothing wasn't the right thing to do. Overpaying or making a move simply for the purpose of making a move isn't a good idea either. I'm not really trying to defend KW here, I'm just saying that we don't have enough information to know what deals presented themselves to him or what he did or did not offer with respect to particular trades. Thus, criticizing him for doing nothing seems a bit unfair to me. If you ask me, JR and not KW is to blame for the Sox failure to upgrade the rotation. Spend a little of the money they have sliced off of last year's payroll to sign Maddux or Glavine or to take on Colon or Vazquez (I'm guessing they could get either of those guys without giving up a ton if they're willing to take on the Tatis contract).

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 06:03 PM
Hold:

I agree completely with your assesment that Reinsdorf is the main person to blame but Williams is not blameless either.

He knew what he was getting into with JR and his results overall (and I do give him much credit for Marte) show that.

It takes two to tango and we've got a hell of a pair eh?

Lip

hold2dibber
12-17-2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hold:

I agree completely with your assesment that Reinsdorf is the main person to blame but Williams is not blameless either.

He knew what he was getting into with JR and his results overall (and I do give him much credit for Marte) show that.

It takes two to tango and we've got a hell of a pair eh?

Lip

Laurel and Hardy have nothing on our guys.

kermittheefrog
12-17-2002, 06:32 PM
Wow Lip is being a hypocrit, who could have seen that coming? You're honestly saying that an "upgrade at utility man" in Willie Harris, a hitter who is one dimensional if he's on and a mediocre pitching prosect is better than a 26 year old who is coming off a strong season in the majors? Now I don't think Moss is the second coming, his stats weren't super pretty outside of the ERA but Ortiz has some similar caveats. The Giants got a guy who has already has a season as a good major league starter and is just 25. Thats a lot more than Corwin Malone. Thats a lot more than bench trinkets like Liefer and Harris. As much as I hate Wililiams I'm not so childish that I try to spin every piece of Sox related news to make Kenny look bad like you Lip.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2002, 07:01 PM
Kermit:

That's true but is that any worse then doing nothing but believing whatever it is numbers and stats that are manipulated tell you?

If the numbers said it was time to go to sleep or use the bathroom would you do it?

I have a feeling that in a few years we're going to be seeing you handling arbitration cases for owners like Reinsdorf, Glass, Loria...you know the "salt of the earth."

That's not a rip by the way, you'd be great at it.

Lip

Daver
12-17-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Kermit:

That's true but is that any worse then doing nothing but believing whatever it is numbers and stats that are manipulated tell you?

If the numbers said it was time to go to sleep or use the bathroom would you do it?

I have a feeling that in a few years we're going to be seeing you handling arbitration cases for owners like Reinsdorf, Glass, Loria...you know the "salt of the earth."

That's not a rip by the way, you'd be great at it.

Lip

I'm sure he would at least be able to bring some baseball knowledge to the process,it is handled mostly by accountants now.......

kermittheefrog
12-17-2002, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Kermit:

That's true but is that any worse then doing nothing but believing whatever it is numbers and stats that are manipulated tell you?

If the numbers said it was time to go to sleep or use the bathroom would you do it?

I have a feeling that in a few years we're going to be seeing you handling arbitration cases for owners like Reinsdorf, Glass, Loria...you know the "salt of the earth."

That's not a rip by the way, you'd be great at it.

Lip

Lip I try to learn enough about the numbers I'm looking at so I can tell when they are bring manipulated. I'll admit I can understand people not trusting the numbers. It can take a bit of time and effort to really get an understanding of what you're looking at but I think what you can learn about baseball is worth it.

kermittheefrog
12-17-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by daver
I'm sure he would at least be able to bring some baseball knowledge to the process,it is handled mostly by accountants now.......

I know Bill James used to do arbitration cases, I'm sure he brought some interesting stuff to the table.

jeremyb1
12-17-2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
It's rough being in a small market like Chicago; too bad we're not in a big market like Seattle or Atlanta. Those guys really have it made.

i understand having frustration about our owner's willingness to spend but i don't see the point in discussing it endly. there's really nothing to discuss. reinsdorf could spend more and he should but he doesn't. there's no way we can change this as fans. there's no point in debating whether or not reinsdorf should spend more money because its not our money of course we all want him to spend more. its not like arguing whether kw should us so much of his budget on a certain free agents or make a certain trade where people's opinions will differ. everyone will always agree that jr should be spending more money but that changes absolutely nothing so i fail to see the point of discussing it to no end.

kermittheefrog
12-17-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i understand having frustration about our owner's willingness to spend but i don't see the point in discussing it endly. there's really nothing to discuss. reinsdorf could spend more and he should but he doesn't. there's no way we can change this as fans. there's no point in debating whether or not reinsdorf should spend more money because its not our money of course we all want him to spend more. its not like arguing whether kw should us so much of his budget on a certain free agents or make a certain trade where people's opinions will differ. everyone will always agree that jr should be spending more money but that changes absolutely nothing so i fail to see the point of discussing it to no end.

Jeremy, I sure do like your posts.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2002, 02:15 AM
Jeremy:

Just wondering. What should we discuss then? About how satisfied we should be that the Sox, thanks to the kind generosity of the warm hearted, fan friendly owner bestowed upon us the "priviledge" of seeing this team average 83 wins since the White Flag Trade?

If in fact, members of the Sox check in to see what's going on, they need to be reminded constantly, EVERY SINGLE DAY, of the overall fan dissatisfaction with the way they are ruining a charter member of the American League.

I am not an idealist but the more the issues are discussed, the more fans might start to become disgusted and perhaps instead of averaging twenty thousand per game, they'll drop to seventeen, then fifteen and maybe Uncle Jerry will finally leave.

Long shot? You bet! I wouldn't even give you odds of a million to one of it happeneing, but you know what, I'm standing up for what I believe and I feel better because I'm trying to do something about it. I'm not bending over and saying to Uncle Jerry, "thank you sir, may I have another.." Outside of my family, the Sox are my passion.

Much as Andrew is trying to educate all of us "non believers," that the only way to a World Series is by following the God of statistics as espoused by Billy Beane (who has been to as many series as the dysfunctional White Sox), I'm trying to educate the "optimists," that the only way to any kind of a positive future is by doing all within our power to drive out current ownership. Nothing will change until ownership changes.

If it means staying away from the park, insulting the front office, pointing out their follies and stupidity, I'm all for it. Personally I think Hal is the best at doing this but I do what I can to help.

Lip

kermittheefrog
12-18-2002, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Much as Andrew is trying to educate all of us "non believers," that the only way to a World Series is by following the God of statistics as espoused by Billy Beane (who has been to as many series as the dysfunctional White Sox), I'm trying to educate the "optimists," that the only way to any kind of a positive future is by doing all within our power to drive out current ownership. Nothing will change until ownership changes.



Hey hey hey, Beane hasn't been to a series but he learned from Sandy Alderson who built the McGwire/Canseco A's WS team. The OBP loving philosophy even traces back to Branch Rickey who invented OBP. No one can argue that guy wasn't a great GM.

hold2dibber
12-18-2002, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i understand having frustration about our owner's willingness to spend but i don't see the point in discussing it endly. there's really nothing to discuss. reinsdorf could spend more and he should but he doesn't. there's no way we can change this as fans. there's no point in debating whether or not reinsdorf should spend more money because its not our money of course we all want him to spend more. its not like arguing whether kw should us so much of his budget on a certain free agents or make a certain trade where people's opinions will differ. everyone will always agree that jr should be spending more money but that changes absolutely nothing so i fail to see the point of discussing it to no end.

My post wasn't exactly an attack on JR for not spending more money. At this point, JR's unwillingness to open the purse strings is more of a symptom of his mismanagement than a cause. The reason he won't spend money is because he's not taking in enough money. That I can understand, to some extent (although he clearly has lost sight of the fact that you have to spend $ to make $). My dislike/distrust of JR has more to do with the way he has botched virtually every significant decision concerning this franchise for the last 15 years, fails to do a mea culpa, and instead blames the fans. This franchise is not in the shape it is in because of the fans; it's in the shape that it's in because Sox' management has blundered its way through the last decade, allienating fans and players alike. We have become a small market team because the Sox, under JR's watch, have no vision, no insight, and no understanding of their fan base.

As to your point concerning discussing the Sox' self-imposed budgetary constraints ad nauseum, I disagree for a few reasons. First, the budgetary constraints imposed by JR have a dramatic impact upon the team we see on the field. Second, despite Lip's and Hal's diligent work, I still have a bit of optimism in me. And I do not think it is unfathomable that JR will open the purse strings again (as he did for D. Wells, Navarro, Belle, etc.). So while I know it is highly unlikely, I still hold out hope that a light bulb will go off over JR's head one day and he'll exclaim "Hey, if we signed Greg Maddux and Mike Stanton, we'd have a great shot at dominating the division for a few years and bringing the fans back!!"

Hangar18
12-18-2002, 10:20 AM
Man....Dibber....your
last post.......that 1st Paragraph Says It All...

Thats exactly why the fans dont show up.
Thats exactly why we have the Stadium we ended up with...
Thats exactly why were not winning....


Someone should send that to JR.

jeremyb1
12-18-2002, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Jeremy, I sure do like your posts.

why thank you.

jeremyb1
12-18-2002, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Just wondering. What should we discuss then? About how satisfied we should be that the Sox, thanks to the kind generosity of the warm hearted, fan friendly owner bestowed upon us the "priviledge" of seeing this team average 83 wins since the White Flag Trade?

If in fact, members of the Sox check in to see what's going on, they need to be reminded constantly, EVERY SINGLE DAY, of the overall fan dissatisfaction with the way they are ruining a charter member of the American League.

I am not an idealist but the more the issues are discussed, the more fans might start to become disgusted and perhaps instead of averaging twenty thousand per game, they'll drop to seventeen, then fifteen and maybe Uncle Jerry will finally leave.

Long shot? You bet! I wouldn't even give you odds of a million to one of it happeneing, but you know what, I'm standing up for what I believe and I feel better because I'm trying to do something about it. I'm not bending over and saying to Uncle Jerry, "thank you sir, may I have another.." Outside of my family, the Sox are my passion.

Much as Andrew is trying to educate all of us "non believers," that the only way to a World Series is by following the God of statistics as espoused by Billy Beane (who has been to as many series as the dysfunctional White Sox), I'm trying to educate the "optimists," that the only way to any kind of a positive future is by doing all within our power to drive out current ownership. Nothing will change until ownership changes.

If it means staying away from the park, insulting the front office, pointing out their follies and stupidity, I'm all for it. Personally I think Hal is the best at doing this but I do what I can to help.

As to your point concerning discussing the Sox' self-imposed budgetary constraints ad nauseum, I disagree for a few reasons. First, the budgetary constraints imposed by JR have a dramatic impact upon the team we see on the field. Second, despite Lip's and Hal's diligent work, I still have a bit of optimism in me. And I do not think it is unfathomable that JR will open the purse strings again (as he did for D. Wells, Navarro, Belle, etc.). So while I know it is highly unlikely, I still hold out hope that a light bulb will go off over JR's head one day and he'll exclaim "Hey, if we signed Greg Maddux and Mike Stanton, we'd have a great shot at dominating the division for a few years and bringing the fans back!!"



i think you can feel however you want to feel. most of us aren't too pleased with ownership. your point about informing the organization is well taken. however, at this point i think they understand the fans are frustrated and want to spend more money and if they don't get it now they never will. i just feel like people spend so much time complaining but i don't really think it gets anywhere.

i come here to hear of news i might otherwise miss, discuss potential moves the team could make, and discuss opinions of players with other people. i feel like these things are worthwhile because we can share our different views and different information with each other. other people should certainly feel free to discuss whatever they please.

personally i just feel like there are certain lines of complaints that get old really fast because everyone repeats the same thing over and over again. i understand people are frustrated the team doesn't spend more money and i feel like at this point people have run out of ways to say it. there's really nothing new left to say on the subject. discussing the possibility of spending more is different. however, just repeating over and over again "i can't belive reinsdorf doesn't spend more money. what a terrible owner" seems repetitive to me. while i also agree kw has made some glaring mistakes as gm the "cash" comments and whatnot also get old to me just because they're repeated over and over and over again.

dibber i definately agree with your points about needing to spend money to make money and the lack of money being spent being syptomatic of other problems. i think a lot of the problem there was that jr tried to bring in belle to generate more revenue and decided that wouldn't work just because it didn't work with belle which is definately pretty stupid.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2002, 12:09 PM
With today's enlightening column by Phil Arvia in the Southtown showcasing the difficulties the Sox are having to get any company in the Chicago area to even consider purchasing naming rights to Comiskey Park, you'd think that would be more incentive to management to put a good team on the field.

But then again...

Lip

voodoochile
12-18-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
personally i just feel like there are certain lines of complaints that get old really fast because everyone repeats the same thing over and over again. i understand people are frustrated the team doesn't spend more money and i feel like at this point people have run out of ways to say it. there's really nothing new left to say on the subject. discussing the possibility of spending more is different. however, just repeating over and over again "i can't belive reinsdorf doesn't spend more money. what a terrible owner" seems repetitive to me. while i also agree kw has made some glaring mistakes as gm the "cash" comments and whatnot also get old to me just because they're repeated over and over and over again.

dibber i definately agree with your points about needing to spend money to make money and the lack of money being spent being syptomatic of other problems. i think a lot of the problem there was that jr tried to bring in belle to generate more revenue and decided that wouldn't work just because it didn't work with belle which is definately pretty stupid.

You have to remember that it is that time of year when how much the team spends and what players they acquire to improve for next year is the only thing to discuss and thus gets more air time. With the winter meetings having just concluded and another year of watching KW watching the grass grow almost complete there is plenty of pent up frustration to let off. After all the rumors and possibilities, the Sox have managed to accomplish almost nothing to improve a team that won 81 games last year and some people feel the team has actively gotten worse by trading Foulke for Koch (I'm taking a wait and see approach, but am cautiously optimistic). There is plenty of distrust already in the fans, but this off-season has cemented it even further.

The question remains: When is it our turn? When does JR decide to do that which he has been promising since he took over the Sox? This is the time of year for those questions and once again, the answers have left us empty and angry. Maybe something is still going to happen, but for the moment, the Sox are treading water at best and/or actively drowning under JR and KW's (mis) management. Hence, the fans are up in arms and making their displeasure known.

How many stats are there to discuss anyway? This team is virtually unchanged from last season? Hypothetical trades are worth less than the effort to type them, IMO. So all that is left is to berate the people responsible for our predicament...

hold2dibber
12-18-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
With today's enlightening column by Phil Arvia in the Southtown showcasing the difficulties the Sox are having to get any company in the Chicago area to even consider purchasing naming rights to Comiskey Park, you'd think that would be more incentive to management to put a good team on the field.

But then again...

Lip

Here's the link: Naming Rights Article (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/arvia/x18-ard1.htm)

It's amazing how hard it has been for the Sox to find someone who will take the plunge, when seemingly every other stadium everywhere else on the face of the earth has found a corporate sponsor.

I used to be against selling the naming rights, but to call the new park "Comiskey Park" is a joke already, so I say, take the $ (if they can ever find a taker) and improve the place and the team.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2002, 12:39 PM
Hold says: so I say, take the $ (if they can ever find a taker) and improve the place and the team.

Just a few thoughts, if someone does buy naming rights, what GUARANTEE is there that Reinsdorf will do what you suggest? Seriously is that something that is in the contract with the company that gets the rights? Because if it isn't, what's to stop JR for putting the cash right back in his pocket.

Second, the Sox (or more likely the state of Illinois) has spent over twenty million fixing up the dump that Reinsdorf wanted built in the first place. Would it matter what the park looked like if the Sox took that money, spent it on players, and started really winning? I mean nobody seemed to mind the park was a dump from 1991 through 1994 did they?

Lip

hold2dibber
12-18-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hold says: so I say, take the $ (if they can ever find a taker) and improve the place and the team.

Just a few thoughts, if someone does buy naming rights, what GUARANTEE is there that Reinsdorf will do what you suggest? Seriously is that something that is in the contract with the company that gets the rights? Because if it isn't, what's to stop JR for putting the cash right back in his pocket.

Second, the Sox (or more likely the state of Illinois) has spent over twenty million fixing up the dump that Reinsdorf wanted built in the first place. Would it matter what the park looked like if the Sox took that money, spent it on players, and started really winning? I mean nobody seemed to mind the park was a dump from 1991 through 1994 did they?

Lip

Good question. I don't know if a sponsor would insist upon some contractual representations from the Sox about how the $ would be spent. I'm sure that the Sox would be against any such restrictions.

As to the park itself, I think that it needs some sprucing up. I like watching games there, but it has no character. If given the choice between a good team or a nicer park, I would, of course, choose a good team. But I would like both (I know that's a lot to ask for as a fan of a small market team).

clarkent
12-18-2002, 01:00 PM
With the All Star Game coming, watch for JR to sell the rights this winter. Many candidates are out there. Some already have ties to the team.

voodoochile
12-18-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by clarkent
With the All Star Game coming, watch for JR to sell the rights this winter. Many candidates are out there. Some already have ties to the team.

Welcome aboad, "Superman". I hope you are right about the sale of the naming rights. More money for the Sox is always a good thing...

Lip Man 1
12-18-2002, 07:09 PM
Clark:

I suggest (if you haven't already) that you read Arvia's column. Based on his info, even WITH the All Star Popularity Contest Farce, the Sox can't seem to get their foot in anybody's door.

For what it's worth.

Lip

kermittheefrog
12-18-2002, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
With today's enlightening column by Phil Arvia in the Southtown showcasing the difficulties the Sox are having to get any company in the Chicago area to even consider purchasing naming rights to Comiskey Park, you'd think that would be more incentive to management to put a good team on the field.


If the Sox put a good team on the field and fans started coming to games in droves JR will have failed. He'll have failed because he'd be proving his buddy Selig wrong when Selig tries to argue that sucess on the field doesn't put fans in the seats.

Lip Man 1
12-18-2002, 10:16 PM
Andrew:

For once you and I agree. That is a VERY perceptive point. It is a fact that Reinsdorf and Selig are good friends and I don't think JR would do anything to embarass him.

Kudos for this!

Also if JR spends a lot of cash to field a winner he could lose money because of his "sweetheart" lease agreement that guarantees him money if the Sox draw below a certain number.

The Illinois Sports Stadium Authority has to buy up to 300,000 tickets to make up the difference. The question is for how much? If they are the most expensive seats then JR has an incentive NOT to win because he might be able to make more money in the long run by losing. (or by being mediocre like he has since 1997)

Lip