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OfficerKarkovice
12-15-2002, 10:37 PM
Also, the Rule 5 draft takes place Monday, after which the Sox will receive two prospects from Oakland from the Billy Koch trade. Sources said the two players are Class A left-hander Neal Cotts, a second-round pick in 2001, and Double-A outfielder Daylan Holt, a third-round pick in 2000.

Same article from the Trib also said that Borchard will start the year in AAA.

MarkEdward
12-15-2002, 11:09 PM
I don't know if Holt's young, but he didn't hit well in AA: .327 OBP, .388 SLG.

jeremyb1
12-15-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I don't know if Holt's young, but he didn't hit well in AA: .327 OBP, .388 SLG.

here's what ba had to say:

Baseball America has learned that the other player the White Sox will receive is outfielder Daylan Holt. Holt, 24, was a third- round pick out of Texas A&M in 2000. He led NCAA Division I with 34 homers in 1999 before a junior slump cost him a chance to go in the first round. After hitting .179 at high Class A Modesto in 2001, he spent the offseason working on his conditioning and mental approach. That paid off, as he hit .286-20-88 between high Class A Visalia and Double-A Midland this year. Holt has a chance to evolve into a power- hitting right fielder, though his strike-zone judgment (125 strikeouts, 44 walks) didn't fit the Oakland prototype.

OfficerKarkovice
12-15-2002, 11:49 PM
Sounds like he could be a decent pick-up.

MarkEdward
12-16-2002, 12:13 AM
BA:
"Holt has a chance to evolve into a power- hitting right fielder, though his strike-zone judgment (125 strikeouts, 44 walks) didn't fit the Oakland prototype."

Uh oh. Me thinks he won't turn out to be much.

OfficerKarkovice
12-16-2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
BA:
"Holt has a chance to evolve into a power- hitting right fielder, though his strike-zone judgment (125 strikeouts, 44 walks) didn't fit the Oakland prototype."

Uh oh. Me thinks he won't turn out to be much.

Strike zone judgement is one area of a players game that can be relatively easily improved...see Lee, Carlos (work in progress). If he has the raw tools, I think he is much better off.

kermittheefrog
12-16-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Strike zone judgement is one area of a players game that can be relatively easily improved...see Lee, Carlos (work in progress). If he has the raw tools, I think he is much better off.

Quite to the contrary, most players don't improve their strike zone judgement. Oakland has built their great farm system on drafting players with baseball skills rather than great athletes that need to learn the game. Look across the country at Tampa Bay. They've done pretty much the opposite, drafting purely based on athleticism and radar readings. They have completely tanked as a franchise and seem hopeless.

While the "you can't teach em what God didn't give em" player development strategy seems logically sound, it doesn't seem to work in practice.

Plus how are the White Sox gonna turn this guy into a player if the A's couldn't?

RichH55
12-16-2002, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Quite to the contrary, most players don't improve their strike zone judgement. Oakland has built their great farm system on drafting players with baseball skills rather than great athletes that need to learn the game. Look across the country at Tampa Bay. They've done pretty much the opposite, drafting purely based on athleticism and radar readings. They have completely tanked as a franchise and seem hopeless.

While the "you can't teach em what God didn't give em" player development strategy seems logically sound, it doesn't seem to work in practice.

Plus how are the White Sox gonna turn this guy into a player if the A's couldn't?

Havent we "developed" Olivo out of Oakland? Just because Beane deals a guy doesnt mean he is about the fall off the face of the earth...he deals talent, and even does deals that work out for both sides....The kid (OF) has some talent, needs some work, but we arent exactly deep in position guys in the minors, so this can't hurt

kermittheefrog
12-16-2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Havent we "developed" Olivo out of Oakland? Just because Beane deals a guy doesnt mean he is about the fall off the face of the earth...he deals talent, and even does deals that work out for both sides....The kid (OF) has some talent, needs some work, but we arent exactly deep in position guys in the minors, so this can't hurt

Olivo was doing fairly well in Oakland.

jeremyb1
12-16-2002, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Quite to the contrary, most players don't improve their strike zone judgement. Oakland has built their great farm system on drafting players with baseball skills rather than great athletes that need to learn the game. Look across the country at Tampa Bay. They've done pretty much the opposite, drafting purely based on athleticism and radar readings. They have completely tanked as a franchise and seem hopeless.

i disagree with your assessment of the d-ray's. they have better young talent than most teams. carl crawford, hamilton, the minor league player of the year in baldelli, joe kennedy, dewon bazelton and to a lesser extent colume, toby hall, abernathy, and aubrey huff. some of those guys came over in trades but any way you cut it the d-rays aren't currently struggling because of a lack of young talent. if you ask me the biggest reason their franchise is struggling is because of the deals they gave to alvarez, hernandez, castilla, and greg vaughn in addition to poor revenue.

kermittheefrog
12-16-2002, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i disagree with your assessment of the d-ray's. they have better young talent than most teams. carl crawford, hamilton, the minor league player of the year in baldelli, joe kennedy, dewon bazelton and to a lesser extent colume, toby hall, abernathy, and aubrey huff. some of those guys came over in trades but any way you cut it the d-rays aren't currently struggling because of a lack of young talent. if you ask me the biggest reason their franchise is struggling is because of the deals they gave to alvarez, hernandez, castilla, and greg vaughn in addition to poor revenue.

They have just two home grown above average major league regulars. Aubrey Huff and Joe Kennedy. I wouldn't call that a success.

jeremyb1
12-16-2002, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
They have just two home grown above average major league regulars. Aubrey Huff and Joe Kennedy. I wouldn't call that a success.

they haven't been a franchise for an incredibly long period of time though. player development may have been a problem for the first few years but for the last several years i think its been pretty good. few teams have winning ball clubs built entirely from their own minor league system. the drays have been a team for six seasons. that's not enough time to develop an entire team of good homegrown players. how many homegrown players have we acquired in the last six years? crede just made the team this past season and we drafted him six years ago. buehrle, rowand, wright, and crede are the only contributing home grown players acquired in the last six years i can come up with.

kermittheefrog
12-16-2002, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
they haven't been a franchise for an incredibly long period of time though. player development may have been a problem for the first few years but for the last several years i think its been pretty good. few teams have winning ball clubs built entirely from their own minor league system. the drays have been a team for six seasons. that's not enough time to develop an entire team of good homegrown players. how many homegrown players have we acquired in the last six years? crede just made the team this past season and we drafted him six years ago. buehrle, rowand, wright, and crede are the only contributing home grown players acquired in the last six years i can come up with.

What about Jim Parque, Kip Wells, Jon Garland, Josh Fogg, Mark Johnson.

The D-Rays have Kennedy, Huff, Randy Winn and Carl Crawford. I'll take our guys in quality and quantity and we're not exactly a great organization.

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Havent we "developed" Olivo out of Oakland? Just because Beane deals a guy doesnt mean he is about the fall off the face of the earth...he deals talent, and even does deals that work out for both sides....The kid (OF) has some talent, needs some work, but we arent exactly deep in position guys in the minors, so this can't hurt

Who cares if this "can't hurt" - the question is, was this a guy worth getting in light of what we gave up in the trade? Assume for a moment that Koch for Foulke is a wash (based upon the fact that Foulke, at his best, is better than Koch but Koch will be under team control for 2 years more than Foulke would have been). The question becomes is MJ and Valentine a decent deal for Cotts and this guy. Seems to me that the answer is "no." Valentine certainly has had more success in the minors than either of the guys we received, and MJ is a legitimate major league catcher (although not a starter, IMHO). The two guys we got are decent prospects, but, in all likelihood, neither will pan out.

jeremyb1
12-16-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
What about Jim Parque, Kip Wells, Jon Garland, Josh Fogg, Mark Johnson.

The D-Rays have Kennedy, Huff, Randy Winn and Carl Crawford. I'll take our guys in quality and quantity and we're not exactly a great organization.

well those guys aren't in the organization anymore. also garland was drafted by the cubs and acquired in return for a player we didn't get in the last 6 years. johnson was drafted in '94 so he wouldn't count. we might have more homegrown players than the d-rays but my point is if so its not by a lot. their farm system hasn't been crippling and their current system is better than most teams.