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View Full Version : We're not getting anybody are we?


OEO Magglio
12-15-2002, 05:19 PM
I don't think we're going to end up getting our number 2 starter, it just doesn't seem like we will, I mean there hasn't been anything going on at the winter meetings, pretty much the expos are to blame for that, but I just believe we're going to end up going with the guys we have.

What does everyone else think?

Daver
12-15-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I don't think we're going to end up getting our number 2 starter, it just doesn't seem like we will, I mean there hasn't been anything going on at the winter meetings, pretty much the expos are to blame for that, but I just believe we're going to end up going with the guys we have.

What does everyone else think?

I beleive KW told us all that he was not going to acquire anyone from his quote in the Southtown from yesterday,plan B it is.........

WhiteSoxWinner
12-15-2002, 05:44 PM
Whoohoo!! Another year of plan B. No , we are not going to acquire anyone, but as KW said, we're trying to build a conistent winner


:KW
Yeah, a team that will consistently win against the Tigers and Royals.

spataro51
12-15-2002, 05:49 PM
I really don't think that Kw and his plan b will work, not to say that the guys we have won't win any games but I just think that with the people we have a world series is not in our future this year. With the us aquiring Koch, I think it will give us a better chance at the division, but not much more. We need a proven quality pitcher and that is what Colon is.

duke of dorwood
12-15-2002, 06:00 PM
If plan B's were the way to go, there'd be no plan "A"'s.

soxnut
12-15-2002, 06:04 PM
There haven't really been any moves at the winter meetings, not just the Sox. It does have alot to do with the Expos, everything falls into place after that. Even though there have been relatively few moves, that doesn't mean that something can't happen after the meetings are over. Maybe GM's are laying groundwork for later. There seems to be fiscal ressonsibility in the air at these meetings.

We all want something to happen to happen, when we want. We are the ones sitting around waiting and can't do anything about it. It seems like forever, especially in this "I gotta have it now" world. It can be frustrating, especially considering the success(or lack of it) of the Sox.

jeremyb1
12-15-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Whoohoo!! Another year of plan B. No , we are not going to acquire anyone, but as KW said, we're trying to build a conistent winner

Yeah, a team that will consistently win against the Tigers and Royals.

i think its ridiculous to demand kw acquire a certain player or a certain type of player and then to demand that he makes a good fair deal. you can't insist he pick up vazquez, colon, or ortiz and then complain that he got ripped off. that's completely unfair. clearly he'd deal for a 2 if he thought the costs outweighed the benefits. the reason he's not making a deal is because he doesn't want to get ripped off. i thought the fact that he gets ripped off so often is the reason everyone dislikes him. i'd for one much rather have no deal than a bad deal.

HawkDJ
12-15-2002, 09:09 PM
I think we all should be happy he isn't forcing a trade. See: Last year.

chisox06
12-15-2002, 09:27 PM
A no. 2 starter should be number 1 priority, peroid. And I agree that I dont think its gonna happen, so again we will be left with a VERY iffy starting lineup.

jeremyb1
12-15-2002, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
I think we all should be happy he isn't forcing a trade. See: Last year.

my thoughts exactly.

OEO Magglio
12-15-2002, 09:39 PM
I agree that I'm happy we aren't forcing anything, cause I have faith that this young staff can get things done, but if Colon or ortiz is available, they aren't the same thing as Todd Ritchie, these guys are both proven ace's and you have to go after that.

WhiteSoxWinner
12-15-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i think its ridiculous to demand kw acquire a certain player or a certain type of player and then to demand that he makes a good fair deal.

Obviously, you've never heard of Billy Beane. Billy Beane seems to accomplish this with a certain degree of regularity. Isn't that the job of GM?

Originally posted by jeremyb1
you can't insist he pick up vazquez, colon, or ortiz and then complain that he got ripped off. that's completely unfair. clearly he'd deal for a 2 if he thought the costs outweighed the benefits. the reason he's not making a deal is because he doesn't want to get ripped off. i thought the fact that he gets ripped off so often is the reason everyone dislikes him. i'd for one much rather have no deal than a bad deal.

Hmmm, yes I can. There are a ton of other GM that can get this done. Hell, MacFail trade a club house cancer (Felix Heredia) and a good low A pitcher (Dontrelle Willis) for a number three pitcher (Matt Clement) and, at the time, a decent closer (Alfonseca). And Florida knew the Flubs were desparate for a closer. I would have no problem if KW could trade an A ball guy and Leifer (not that he is a cancer, but he is OK at best, just like Heredia) for one of those guys.

I refuse to excuse the lack of getting anything accomplished in trade on the fact that KW can't get the job done and is afraid of getting burned. If KW can't get the job done, then there is only one obvious answer.

OfficerKarkovice
12-15-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Hmmm, yes I can. There are a ton of other GM that can get this done. Hell, MacFail trade a club house cancer (Felix Heredia) and a good low A pitcher (Dontrelle Willis) for a number three pitcher (Matt Clement) and, at the time, a decent closer (Alfonseca).

Check the trade again...I think you might find Julian Tavarez in there.

WhiteSoxWinner
12-15-2002, 10:55 PM
Sorry, you are correct. I meant Tavarez.

Lip Man 1
12-15-2002, 10:55 PM
White Sox Winner says:

I refuse to excuse the lack of getting anything accomplished in trade on the fact that KW can't get the job done

I'll take that comment one step beyond...what does it say about the faith Sox fans have in Williams (including right here on this thread) that they in essence are "applauding' the fact that he hasn't accomplished anything!

Lip

OfficerKarkovice
12-15-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'll take that comment one step beyond...what does it say about the faith Sox fans have in Williams (including right here on this thread) that they in essence are "applauding' the fact that he hasn't accomplished anything!

Lip [/B]

Because where does it say that the only way to make your team better is through additions.

WhiteSoxWinner
12-15-2002, 11:01 PM
Good point Lip. We have some of the faithful that are happy about the fact that our GM is paralyzed by his inability to make a good trade, so he will just stand pat and miss out on any good players that are available. This line of thought doesn't make any sense. It is just insane.

TornLabrum
12-15-2002, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
White Sox Winner says:

I refuse to excuse the lack of getting anything accomplished in trade on the fact that KW can't get the job done

I'll take that comment one step beyond...what does it say about the faith Sox fans have in Williams (including right here on this thread) that they in essence are "applauding' the fact that he hasn't accomplished anything!

Lip

I think you have it wrong, Lip. I think they're applauding because he hasn't screwed up anything!

:KW

"I was gonna trade Buehrle and Garland along with Magglio Ordonez for Bartolo Colon, but Danny Evans told me they have the rights to his little brother Odie. So now I'll trade them to the Dodgers along with cash considerations. Danny assures me I'll come out of this one smelling like a rose."

jeremyb1
12-15-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Obviously, you've never heard of Billy Beane. Billy Beane seems to accomplish this with a certain degree of regularity. Isn't that the job of GM?

Hmmm, yes I can. There are a ton of other GM that can get this done. Hell, MacFail trade a club house cancer (Felix Heredia) and a good low A pitcher (Dontrelle Willis) for a number three pitcher (Matt Clement) and, at the time, a decent closer (Alfonseca). And Florida knew the Flubs were desparate for a closer. I would have no problem if KW could trade an A ball guy and Leifer (not that he is a cancer, but he is OK at best, just like Heredia) for one of those guys.

I refuse to excuse the lack of getting anything accomplished in trade on the fact that KW can't get the job done and is afraid of getting burned. If KW can't get the job done, then there is only one obvious answer.

there are so many inaccuracies and misstatements in this post i don't even know where to begin. i can't think of any instances where billy beane has chosen one specific player picked a day to get him and then done whatever it takes to get the deal done. beane has been attempting to acquire durazo for two years. he waited two full years until he got the right deal before he was willing to make the trade.

i may have been to vague by my "certain type of player" comment. certainly its possible to target a second basemen or another type of player but it always depends on the availability of the player. i would argue that with our apparent financial restraints it is very difficult to acquire a number one or two pitcher. as far as i can tell there are exactly three on the market in ortiz, colon, and vazquez and a great deal is being asked in return for all three of them.

your comments about the cubs demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of the financial terms of that deal. the marlins needed to cut about 6 or 8 million in salary and had no other takers outside of the cubs so they were left with few other options. clement had never performed at all like he did last season over the first 4 or 5 years in his career. his performance was a complete suprise to quite a few people that know a good deal about baseball. i dare you to find me one article about that trade when it was completed referring to clement as a "solid number three starter". he was destined for the backend of the rotation until he began to pitch well. the marlins needed to move his salary and the cubs were willing to take it so they made the move.

i would've liked kw to make more of a push to sign trachsel who ended up being inked for only 2 years at 4.5 million per year. outiside of that though, his options seem very limited to me. explain to me how you deal for colon or vazquez without giving up a ton considering how much demand they're in or point me towards some other available number two starters and i'll be more inclined to agree with you. right now i just don't see many options out there and i think its better to stay put that to make a bad deal in order to acquire a player in incredible demand with a huge price tag.

WhiteSoxWinner
12-15-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
your comments about the cubs demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of the financial terms of that deal. the marlins needed to cut about 6 or 8 million in salary and had no other takers outside of the cubs so they were left with few other options. clement had never performed at all like he did last season over the first 4 or 5 years in his career. his performance was a complete suprise to quite a few people that know a good deal about baseball. i dare you to find me one article about that trade when it was completed referring to clement as a "solid number three starter". he was destined for the backend of the rotation until he began to pitch well. the marlins needed to move his salary and the cubs were willing to take it so they made the move.


OK, and the Expos are considering trading Colon, Vasquez, et al for what competitive balance? No, because, just like Florida, they have to cut payroll.

All the articles of course talked about Clement replacing Tavarez, so, no you right I won't find any articles that refer to him as a #3 pitcher, but that is what he became for their team last year wasn't he? Make all the arguements you want about where he rates on the Flubs depth chart, but last year, on the majority of major league rosters, he could have been a number three pitcher.

jeremyb1
12-15-2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
OK, and the Expos are considering trading Colon, Vasquez, et al for what compettive balance? No, because, just like Florida, they have to cut payroll.

the difference is in the demand for the players though. there wasn't much of a demand for alfonseca last season. most gms don't like to overpay for mediocre closers which is what alfonseca proved himself to be last season. alfonseca who most gms viewed as an overrated closer and clement who most viewed as a talented pitcher who couldn't cash in on his talent combined to cost 7 million in that trade. that's a lot of money for two somewhat questionable players considering the financial constraints of most teams these days.

compare this to colon, one of the five or ten best starting pitchers last season, vazquez who's considered to be one of the best up and coming pitchers in baseball and vidro one of the two or three best hitting second basemen in the game. there's just no comparison. when mediocre players with big salary's must be dealt, that means they come cheap. when outstanding players must be dealt because of salary they go for a ton - especially if they're a rare quantity such as two frontline starters and an excellent second basemen - because everyone knows they must go and therefore a bidding war begins.

Lip Man 1
12-16-2002, 12:02 AM
Hal:

That was my point...Sox fans feel he's so incompetent that they'd rather see him do nothing.

Which means by proxy that the only chance the Sox have of winning anything is if they luck into it, a la 2000. (and we saw how long that lasted didn't we?)

I can't honestly feel one fan thinks this club is good enough to win a championship next season as is.

Lip