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Daver
12-14-2002, 11:45 AM
A quote from KW

The Sox were quiet Friday.

Williams, who is searching for a starting pitcher, said he is not going to force the issue when it comes to trades. If a hurler to his liking is not available at the right price, Williams said the Sox will look within the organization.

"As I've said before, if there is a difference-maker out there, we'll explore that to a greater degree,'' Williams said. "If it turns out that player isn't there or costs too much in terms of the talent we have to give up, we'll retreat to our 'plan B,' which is to go with what we have in house Jon Rauch, Rocky Biddle, maybe even Josh Stewart (11-7 with Double-A Birmingham last season) who really came along.''


Based on that it is probably safe to assume there will be no pitching additions that will dramatically improve the staff.

jeremyb1
12-14-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
A quote from KW

The Sox were quiet Friday.

Williams, who is searching for a starting pitcher, said he is not going to force the issue when it comes to trades. If a hurler to his liking is not available at the right price, Williams said the Sox will look within the organization.

"As I've said before, if there is a difference-maker out there, we'll explore that to a greater degree,'' Williams said. "If it turns out that player isn't there or costs too much in terms of the talent we have to give up, we'll retreat to our 'plan B,' which is to go with what we have in house Jon Rauch, Rocky Biddle, maybe even Josh Stewart (11-7 with Double-A Birmingham last season) who really came along.''


Based on that it is probably safe to assume there will be no pitching additions that will dramatically improve the staff.

do people actually disagree with these types of statements from kw because i think they're some of the most intelligent things he's said since he's been here. i love how everyone bashes his moves which are ussually bad moves because he commits to himself to making a deal and then forces a trade and doesn't hold out for enough and then when he attempts to reverse this they're upset he's not acquiring more players.

a free agent would be a good way to go but if moyer would've wanted 9 mil a year to play for us that's just not worth it. the only option we really have left is free agents and most of the best ones are good. i see byrd as the only possible difference making option left.

obviously everyone wants a good no. 2 starter, but some people don't seem to care about the price. i'm pleased kw realizes we have very strong options to fall back on if things don't work out and that he must consider what he's giving up as much as what he's receiving in these deals.

OneDog
12-14-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by daver
A quote from KW
Based on that it is probably safe to assume there will be no pitching additions that will dramatically improve the staff.

What else would you expect?

voodoochile
12-14-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
do people actually disagree with these types of statements from kw because i think they're some of the most intelligent things he's said since he's been here. i love how everyone bashes his moves which are ussually bad moves because he commits to himself to making a deal and then forces a trade and doesn't hold out for enough and then when he attempts to reverse this they're upset he's not acquiring more players.

That would be because most teams have GM's who know how to fill holes without overpaying. Contrary to what you typed above, it isn't an all or nothing situation...

jeremyb1
12-14-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That would be because most teams have GM's who know how to fill holes without overpaying. Contrary to what you typed above, it isn't an all or nothing situation...

no its not an issue of being unable to fill holes. he's simply said that he doesn't see the point of signing a decent 3 or 4 only to block the development of rauch/biddle. what's wrong with that? we already have a 24 year old, a 23 year old, and a 25 year old in our rotation. why should we sign ismael valdes to take rauch's spot in the rotation? he has as much upside as anyone on the staff.

i think that whoever trades for colon or vazquez is going to overpay. that's the nature of a bidding war like this. a team like the yankees can afford to lose their best young players because they can pay millions to free agents. we can't. if ken williams decides going into the meetings he's not leaving without colon, vazquez, or ortiz we're going to horribly overpay. the fact that he's not doing that is good. if it means we don't get one of those players then that's good. we didn't get ripped off. good talent doesn't come cheap.

WhiteSoxWinner
12-14-2002, 04:23 PM
The problem with retreating to "Plan B" is that we always retreat to plan B. I think alot of Sox fans are tired of reteating (I know I am!!) We want to go the on offensive, and we should now. Who besides the Twins are to challenge for this division? We need bold moves to win now. You don't have to trade away a ton of talent to get it.

It is not that I think KW's statement is wrong, it is just that when you hear that statement year in, year out, we know to read between the lines understand that this means we are content to just sit here and do nothing.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-14-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
The problem with retreating to "Plan B" is that we always retreat to plan B. I think alot of Sox fans are tired of reteating (I know I am!!) We want to go the on offensive, and we should now. Who besides the Twins are to challenge for this division? We need bold moves to win now. You don't have to trade away a ton of talent to get it.

It is not that I think KW's statement is wrong, it is just that when you hear that statement year in, year out, we know to read between the lines understand that this means we are content to just sit here and do nothing.

Good point. I'm not sure the Sox would ever have put the pieces together to beat Cleveland back in the late-90's, but my goodness! The division title (and an automatic playoff appearance) is wide open right now.

You can't tell me the Sox aren't capable of beating Minnesota if JR and KW were truly serious about winning a championship. So I fully expect the Sox to "fall back to Plan B," just like they always do.

idseer
12-14-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
The problem with retreating to "Plan B" is that we always retreat to plan B. I think alot of Sox fans are tired of reteating (I know I am!!) We want to go the on offensive, and we should now. Who besides the Twins are to challenge for this division? We need bold moves to win now. You don't have to trade away a ton of talent to get it.

It is not that I think KW's statement is wrong, it is just that when you hear that statement year in, year out, we know to read between the lines understand that this means we are content to just sit here and do nothing.

where was plan B when we dumped fogg wells and whatsizname for ritchie?

Daver
12-14-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by idseer
where was plan B when we dumped fogg wells and whatsizname for ritchie?

Whatsizname would be Sean Lowe,who has been cut by two teams since the Sox traded him.

That being said I still don't have a problem with that trade.

idseer
12-14-2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by daver
Whatsizname would be Sean Lowe,who has been cut by two teams since the Sox traded him.

That being said I still don't have a problem with that trade.

i know you've said this all along ... but how about AFTER the fact?
are you ok with ritchie coming back or would you be happier with wells and fogg on this team right now?

Daver
12-14-2002, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i know you've said this all along ... but how about AFTER the fact?
are you ok with ritchie coming back or would you be happier with wells and fogg on this team right now?

Ritchie will be back,I have no interest in ever seeing Kip Wells in a Sox uniform again,and Fogg was a marginal prospect at best.

duke of dorwood
12-14-2002, 08:02 PM
I just wish our plas"A" s were as structured as our plan "B" s are.

TornLabrum
12-14-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I just wish our plas"A" s were as structured as our plan "B" s are.

After watching Prof. Chaos in action for a couple of years now, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there never was a Plan A. Plan B is the only plan. That's why it has structure.

voodoochile
12-14-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
After watching Prof. Chaos in action for a couple of years now, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that there never was a Plan A. Plan B is the only plan. That's why it has structure.

:reinsy
"I like structure..."

:KW
"I shop at Structure..."

Lip Man 1
12-15-2002, 12:03 AM
Jeremy says:

"a team like the Yankees can afford to lose their best young players because they can pay millions to free agents. We can't."

That hasn't been proven has it?

I think it's fair to say most Sox fans feel "we won't" is more accurate and to the point.

Lip

RKMeibalane
12-15-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
That hasn't been proven has it?

I think it's fair to say most Sox fans feel "we won't" is more accurate and to the point.

Lip

Agreed. The Sox will spend as much money as Reinsdorf sees fit. As of now, he still harbors resentment towards the fans for not attending games, so he refuses to spend money on free-agents. Most the of the Sox recent accquisitions have been via trade, or they have been signed for a small amount of money (i.e. Lofton).

jeremyb1
12-15-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says:

"a team like the Yankees can afford to lose their best young players because they can pay millions to free agents. We can't."

That hasn't been proven has it?

I think it's fair to say most Sox fans feel "we won't" is more accurate and to the point.


whether we won't or we can't, its the same to me. the bottom line is identical. if jr won't pay the money, kw can't make the deal. i fail to see the difference between the two.

jeremyb1
12-15-2002, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by idseer
where was plan B when we dumped fogg wells and whatsizname for ritchie?

exactly. kw has never stayed put. he added alomar, clayton, ritchie, wells, lofton and tried to add erstad all the expense of our future and very few of these moves worked out. anyone who says he has never gone for it in the present is out of there mind. he's done so repeatedly and all of his attempts have failed horribly. i don't understand what's so bad about trying a different aproach when his previous approach has clearly failed.

WhiteSoxWinner
12-15-2002, 09:30 PM
I am not saying that KW doesn't make moves. He makes plenty of moves. However, besides Wells, name another A list free agent he has signed or player he traded for. No, I don't consider Lofton an A list player. Not with his history of injury and how he started to slow down the two years prior to signing with the Sox. For once, it would be nice to see the Sox being the big player in the market.

We always nibble at the table scraps, and never go for the main course. And that is what plan B is all about. We will go out and sign Chad Krueter, Jon Lieber, and some other yahoo, and these will be the big moves for the Sox.

The great part about signing free agents, THERE IS NO MORTGAGING THE FUTURE!!!!

Lip Man 1
12-15-2002, 10:05 PM
Jeremy says: "I fail to see the difference..."

The difference Jeremy is a WILLINGNESS TO WIN. And accountability for when they fail.

As I see it, that's pretty important to a lot of Sox fans, especially those who aren't satisfied with winning 83 games and calling it a successful season. (especially in the weakest division in baseball)

Just my opinion.

Lip

hold2dibber
12-16-2002, 09:21 AM
I agree with what KW said in principle; as Jeremy points out, it doesn't make much sense to sign Shawn Estes or someone of that ilk who is just going to take away starts from Biddle or Rauch or someone like that. And the truth of the matter is, this was a horrible FA class for the Sox' needs. The only front line starting pitchers were old and wanted huge money (Maddux, Glavine, Moyer). The only decent CF (where the Sox still have a hole, IMHO) was Finley, and he's old and wanted a ton of $. The only (rumored) front line starting pitchers available are Colon, Vazquez and Ortiz. I'd love to have any of them, but at what price? Colon is a free agent at the end of the year, and he and Vazquez are likely to be the subject of a bidding war that will drive up the price for their services. I wouldn't mind seeing a trade for Ortiz, but I'm leery of career NL starting pitchers coming over to the Sox; the track record there lately is not very good (see Navarro, Jamie and Ritchie, Todd).

I guess my point is, I agree that the Sox need to change the organizational mind set and make winning the first and only priority. I agree that they shouldn't be planning on achieving "sustained success" - they should be focused on winning a World Series. That is the only success that matters. But to force trades and make moves just for the sake of making a move doesn't make sense either. Overpaying for mediocre talent won't get the Sox there any faster. They're better off going with what they have now until a better opportunity comes along for someone who will make a difference and for whom they won't have to overpay.

Lip Man 1
12-16-2002, 12:26 PM
Hold:

I'm not attacking you or your post, it does have validity to it but you also have to factor in that the Sox have "rebuilt" themselves three times in less then the past ten years (after the strike, in 97 and last year) and it's been 43 years since they have even been in a World Series.

Trying to sell patience under those circumstances is a pretty hard sell don't you think?

And you mention guys like Biddle and Rauch (both having had arm surgery by the way...) I think most Sox fans would probably tell you they don't have a lot of confidence in the club's ability to draft future stars based on the track record of the organization (i.e. Scott Ruffcord, Tom Bolton etc...) and the results year by year since the strike ended.

Just food for thought.

Lip