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OEO Magglio
12-13-2002, 06:10 PM
Bruce Levine reported the KW is looking to get either Colon, or Russ Ortiz, I really don't believe we would get either of them, and if we did who would we trade?

Daver
12-13-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Bruce Levine reported the KW is looking to get either Colon, or Russ Ortiz, I really don't believe we would get either of them, and if we did who would we trade?

Colon would cost the Sox something along the lines of Borchard,Stewart,Honel,Hummel,and Reyes.

That is a little less than it cost the Expos to acquire him value wise.

idseer
12-13-2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by daver
Colon would cost the Sox something along the lines of Borchard,Stewart,Honel,Hummel,and Reyes.

That is a little less than it cost the Expos to acquire him value wise.

true but then they are in danger of getting nothing for him if they don't deal this year.

but i don't believe he is worth not only what his contract calls for and what an extension would cost , but also 3 or 4 prospects that figure highly for our team. it's just too much to give up.

getting ortiz wouldn't be much cheaper either.

Daver
12-13-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by idseer
true but then they are in danger of getting nothing for him if they don't deal this year.




They would get compensation for losing a A teir FA,which would be a first round sandwich pick,plus the fact that he is one of the few reasons they will get anyone into the ballpark in Montreal next season,Minaya is not stupid,he will not give Colon away for a lot less than they gave up for him unless he is told to do so by the team owners explicity.

idseer
12-13-2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by daver
They would get compensation for losing a A teir FA,which would be a first round sandwich pick,plus the fact that he is one of the few reasons they will get anyone into the ballpark in Montreal next season,Minaya is not stupid,he will not give Colon away for a lot less than they gave up for him unless he is told to do so by the team owners explicity.

ok ... next to nothing would be more accurate. and i think their attendance is so poor that wouldn't hardly matter. besides, i think vlad would be the one to depend on for attendance.

Daver
12-13-2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by idseer
ok ... next to nothing would be more accurate. and i think their attendance is so poor that wouldn't hardly matter. besides, i think vlad would be the one to depend on for attendance.

You forget that they are playing home games in San Juan this season,they will want to have as many latino stars as possible for that,they are banking on it to provide a cash flow boost.

idseer
12-13-2002, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by daver
You forget that they are playing home games in San Juan this season,they will want to have as many latino stars as possible for that,they are banking on it to provide a cash flow boost.

even tho he probably wouldn't appear in more than 4 or 5 of the 20 games they're playing there .... i get your point.
still, i'm sure they'd rather get something for him now than the much lessor booty they'll get when he declares fa.

Daver
12-13-2002, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by idseer
even tho he probably wouldn't appear in more than 4 or 5 of the 20 games they're playing there .... i get your point.
still, i'm sure they'd rather get something for him now than the much lessor booty they'll get when he declares fa.

Like I said before,he will not be dumped for next to nothing unless the owners tell Minaya to do that,and if they do he will go to the Red Sox or the Yankees.

SoxxoS
12-13-2002, 07:25 PM
Daver-I don't think that Montreal would even ASK for Borchard, Honel, Hummel, Stewart and Reyes. That is too much. You are giving them our #1 and #3 prospect as well as 3 other highly touted ones. I think Borchard, Stewart, Hummel and another fringe pitcher would do it. Than again it is KW-

:KW

"Okay my final offer-Borchard, Crede, Mags and CASH for Colon."

However, Russ Ortiz would be a wonderful addition that I think we can get realistically. I would trade Carlos and 2 good prospects for him in a heartbeat.

Daver
12-13-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Daver-I don't think that Montreal would even ASK for Borchard, Honel, Hummel, Stewart and Reyes. That is too much. You are giving them our #1 and #3 prospect as well as 3 other highly touted ones.

They gave up 4 top ten prospects to acquire him,including the third rated pick in all of minor league baseball,Brandon Phillips.
They will want a ton for Colon.

Paulwny
12-13-2002, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by daver

They will want a ton for Colon.

Agree, the only way you may be able to get him cheaper is to take Tatis as part of the deal.

jeremyb1
12-13-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Bruce Levine reported the KW is looking to get either Colon, or Russ Ortiz, I really don't believe we would get either of them, and if we did who would we trade?

as long as he just exploring the possibility i have no problem. as long as he sticks to his comments that he's not looking to force a deal to make a huge splash then i'm satisfied. as long as he just explores his options i'm sure he'll discover it will take too much to get either player.

he's said he's only interested in getting a difference maker so that explains why he's talking about these guys, there the only pitchers he's strongly considering at this point.

supposedly borchard and honel are untouchable and he doesn't want to deal key players. if that's the case there's no way we can acquire either pitcher and that's fine with me.

hose
12-13-2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by daver
Colon would cost the Sox something along the lines of Borchard,Stewart,Honel,Hummel,and Reyes.

That is a little less than it cost the Expos to acquire him value wise.


Since Colon is a FA after this season KW would have to be able to lock up Colon in at least a 3 year deal for this deal to make sense.

Trading away solid prospects for proven veterans is how the Yankees have acquired talent over the years.

Paulwny
12-13-2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by hose

Trading away solid prospects for proven veterans is how the Yankees have acquired talent over the years.

Gee, I always thought it was their excellent scouting that acquired talent.

RichH55
12-13-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Gee, I always thought it was their excellent scouting that acquired talent.

They did a damn fine job scouting Mussina, Giambi, Clemens, Martinez, Ventura, and Mondesi(well maybe not Mondesi)

Jerry_Manuel
12-13-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by daver
Colon would cost the Sox something along the lines of Borchard,Stewart,Honel,Hummel,and Reyes.

Don't forget cash.....

WinningUgly!
12-13-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by daver
They gave up 4 top ten prospects to acquire him,including the third rated pick in all of minor league baseball,Brandon Phillips.
They will want a ton for Colon.

They over-paid for Colon with prospects, because at the time of the deal, the future of the franchise was in doubt & they were "going for it" in possibly their last season.

I like the thought of Colon in the Sox rotation, but why should we over-pay for him, in the last year of his deal, just because Montreal was foolish enough to do so a year ago? No thanks...not for what they're asking!

Colon's value isn't what it was at the time of the Tribe/Spos deal, when he had 2 years remaining on his contract. Maybe it is to a team like the Yankees, where a player's "signability" isn't a factor....a little bit different for the Sox.

Daver
12-13-2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
They over-paid for Colon with prospects, because at the time of the deal, the future of the franchise was in doubt & they were "going for it" in possibly their last season.



Did they overpay,or did the owners use it as an excuse to raid the Expos farm system?

The Expos are the biggest conflict of interest in the history of the sport.

jeremyb1
12-13-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by daver
Did they overpay,or did the owners use it as an excuse to raid the Expos farm system?

The Expos are the biggest conflict of interest in the history of the sport.

are you implying that minaya takes orders from mlb about what deals to make? or that he looks out for the owner's interests more than his teams in making deals? i think that's a stretch.

voodoochile
12-13-2002, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
are you implying that minaya takes orders from mlb about what deals to make? or that he looks out for the owner's interests more than his teams in making deals? i think that's a stretch.

Why, because the owners have always been such trustworthy upstanding guys who never ever cheat or do what is best for their pocket books over the best interests of the sport as a whole?

WinningUgly!
12-13-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by daver
Did they overpay,or did the owners use it as an excuse to raid the Expos farm system?


I'm really not sure, but either way, it shouldn't have been allowed to happen. A real Commissioner, wouldn't have let the deal fly.

voodoochile
12-13-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I'm really not sure, but either way, it shouldn't have been allowed to happen. A real Commissioner, wouldn't have let the deal fly.

A real commissioner wouldn't have allowed the owners to collectively buy the Expos in the first place, but that is probably a moot point...

WinningUgly!
12-13-2002, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
A real commissioner wouldn't have allowed the owners to collectively buy the Expos in the first place, but that is probably a moot point...

Bingo! :D:

Watching the Expos getting picked apart this weekend is gonna make me sick...unless we get a few of them.http://www.themorlocks.com/talk/images/smiles/gene.gif

jeremyb1
12-14-2002, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why, because the owners have always been such trustworthy upstanding guys who never ever cheat or do what is best for their pocket books over the best interests of the sport as a whole?

its more trust in minaya. i think he's trustworthy. he was in the mets front office before this. i just refuse to believe that he'd be talked into taking the gm's job only to intentionally do a poor job for the benefit of other teams. what's in that for him?

Paulwny
12-14-2002, 11:16 AM
If Colon goes to NY, Clemens or Pettite are out.


An official from a third team who had contact with the Expos Friday came away with the belief that the Yankees are the favorites to land Colon, whom the Expos prefer to trade over Vazquez in their mandate to cut payroll. The Expos are looking for position players who are ready to play in the major leagues but are not yet eligible for arbitration, and the Yankees have two such players in Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-gscout083036382dec14,0,5352168.story?coll=ny%2Dbas eball%2Dheadlines

lowesox
12-14-2002, 11:35 AM
I'd rather see the sox go out and get a couple of players who have really low value right now. Imagine if we got Shawn Estes and Chris Carpenter. These guys would both come pretty cheap and have huge ceilings.

There's a bidding war for the Expos guys and Kenny Williams gets fleeced every time he trades (even when the Sox have all the leverage). I'd love Ortiz or Colon, but I couldn't bare to see who we'd have to give up. I keep praying that he's not going to trade Crede to the Mets for Pedro Astachio.

voodoochile
12-14-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
its more trust in minaya. i think he's trustworthy. he was in the mets front office before this. i just refuse to believe that he'd be talked into taking the gm's job only to intentionally do a poor job for the benefit of other teams. what's in that for him?

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that a backroom deal was in effect. Maybe living in Chicago makes me more of a cynic, but for the most part I agree with you. I don't think the owners are telling him directly to strip the team bare, if for no other reason than they want to sell it and having at least some talent will facilitate the sale. Still, the whole thing stinks worse than a a beach full of alewives in the June sun.

I really don't trust the owners. Also, what does it say about JR if he can't/won't get in on the feeding frenzy. Here they are selling off the best of the Expos for less than they are worth and JR is too busy building a spite wall at Comiskey to get involved, or else the other owners really don't like him either and what does that tell us about how far he has fallen from grace? Here we have an owner who used to be one of the most powerful men in baseball and now he sits in the corner slowly rocking back and forth and muttering:

:reinsy
"I'll show them, I'll show them all... stupid fans refuse to pay? I'll build a wall INSIDE the park. Can't spend money until they come out to see the team I force on them. No trades for star pitchers. No long term contracts. Low ball the best young talent to show them who is boss. If we're going to win a championship it is going to be on my terms. My way... I'll do it my way... I'll do it my way..."
(fade to black)

Lip Man 1
12-14-2002, 02:03 PM
1. Carpenter signed with the Cardinals Friday

2. Supposedly the Yanks and Phils have talked about Pettite

3. According to Phil Rogers and ESPN (last night) the Expos are NOT looking to deal Vlad or Colon instead trying to cut their payroll by dealing some of their 2nd tier players (Video, Vasquez etc.) The thinking is that Minyana wants to leave the franchise with some marketability when they move to D.C., Portland, or Puerto Rico next year.

Lip