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joecrede
12-12-2002, 05:28 PM
ESPN Radio reported that Kenny is going to the Mets about Astacio. Checking out the Mets needs this might be where Lee may be headed. FWIW, I'd rather keep Lee.

OEO Magglio
12-12-2002, 05:48 PM
Lee for Astacio, I would definetly do, hopefully this gets done!

Soxheads
12-12-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Lee for Astacio, I would definetly do, hopefully this gets done!

That would be great.

NUCatsFan
12-12-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Lee for Astacio, I would definetly do, hopefully this gets done!

:KW

Don't forget the money! Must not forget the money. How about Lee and 2 million dollars for Astacio? We'll even throw in that Jon Rauch kid. Anything else you want? No reasonable offer refused! Everything must go!

jeremyb1
12-12-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
ESPN Radio reported that Kenny is going to the Mets about Astacio. Checking out the Mets needs this might be where Lee may be headed. FWIW, I'd rather keep Lee.

here's what stark said about astacio going into the meetingsPedro Astacio
Astacio stands well behind Rey Ordonez, Jeromy Burnitz and Roger Cedeno on the list of players the Mets want to trade. But any move involving those guys would be a my- problem-for-your-problem special. To actually address their offensive needs, they'll probably have to deal either Astacio or Armando Benitez. And Benitez is much harder to replace. But Astacio is a $7-million item who would make $8.5 million if he pitches 200 innings. So even in a market short on experienced starters, this will still be a test of GM Steve Phillips' considerable creativity.

he has serious health concerns, he makes 7 million next year, the mets want to deal him to clear salary, and his era was 7 after the break last season. if kw were to give up anything more than a fringe prospect he'd truly be staking a claim to the worst gm in baseball and then some.

SoxxoS
12-12-2002, 06:31 PM
<<<he has serious health concerns, he makes 7 million next year, the mets want to deal him to clear salary, and his era was 7 after the break last season. if kw were to give up anything more than a fringe prospect he'd truly be staking a claim to the worst gm in baseball and then some.>>>

He obviously got worn down last year towards the end of the year. Here is an intresting stat-

ERA after the 8/6 complete game 3 hitter- 2.95

ERA from 8/11-9/27 went from 3.14 to 4.79. In a month and a half! In that span he pitched 45 innings, giving up 54 runs! Before the All-Star break he was getting Cy Young considerations. He would be the perfect fit in our rotation. With our bullpen, we can also limit his workload so he doesn't get worn down towards the end of next year. I hope KW pulls the trigger on this one.

wulfy
12-12-2002, 06:37 PM
I'm not a big fan of this deal, especially if we are giving up any young talent in the deal. If it's just Lee for Astacio, straight up, I'm neutral on the deal. If they want Malone or someone of that ilk, no way.

That being said, I'd really like KW to focus his efforts on Javier Vasquez. Bartolo Colon is a pipe dream, but I think Vasquez is a better fit, based on what you are willing to give up. If you can get Vasquez for Lee and a middle level minor leaguer, I would do that in a heartbeat.

Rotation:
Buehrle
Vasquez
Garland
Wright
Ritchie/Rausch/Whomever

OfficerKarkovice
12-12-2002, 06:40 PM
The Mets need a third baseman...how about Jose Valentin?

CHISOXFAN13
12-12-2002, 06:46 PM
I've come to the conclusion that no matter what Williams does it will be criticized. If he doesn't make a move it's criticized. If he trades for Astacio it's criticized. If we give up too much for Vlad it's criticized. It gets old quick.

RichH55
12-12-2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by wulfy
I'm not a big fan of this deal, especially if we are giving up any young talent in the deal. If it's just Lee for Astacio, straight up, I'm neutral on the deal. If they want Malone or someone of that ilk, no way.

That being said, I'd really like KW to focus his efforts on Javier Vasquez. Bartolo Colon is a pipe dream, but I think Vasquez is a better fit, based on what you are willing to give up. If you can get Vasquez for Lee and a middle level minor leaguer, I would do that in a heartbeat.

Rotation:
Buehrle
Vasquez
Garland
Wright
Ritchie/Rausch/Whomever

To give Lee for Astacio would be foolish...especially since the Mets have no leverage

SoxxoS
12-12-2002, 07:36 PM
Pitching wins championships. If we get Astasio a-

Buerhle
Astasio
Garland
Wright
Rauch-

is a rotation I would feel very confident about. Not to mention if we do well in the first half, a possible acquisition of a pitcher around the trading deadline. And, what if Todd Ritchie can pitch back to his early form? Carlos Lee is an average outfielder and a slightly above average bat. He has the TALENT to be a very good hitter. However, I can only go by what has happened thus far, and he is just slightly above average. Astasio will win a lot more games for us than Carlos will, and outfielders are a lot easier to come by than #2 pitchers. An Astasio/Lee swap would be a outstanding trade by KW.

Jerry_Manuel
12-12-2002, 07:39 PM
In 2000, the Rockies wanted Kip and Garland for Pedro. OK.

RichH55
12-12-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Pitching wins championships. If we get Astasio a-

Buerhle
Astasio
Garland
Wright
Rauch-

is a rotation I would feel very confident about. Not to mention if we do well in the first half, a possible acquisition of a pitcher around the trading deadline. And, what if Todd Ritchie can pitch back to his early form? Carlos Lee is an average outfielder and a slightly above average bat. He has the TALENT to be a very good hitter. However, I can only go by what has happened thus far, and he is just slightly above average. Astasio will win a lot more games for us than Carlos will, and outfielders are a lot easier to come by than #2 pitchers. An Astasio/Lee swap would be a outstanding trade by KW.



Astacio is not a true #2 IMHO....I guess we will have to agree to disagree here

MarkEdward
12-12-2002, 07:57 PM
Is anyone aware that Astacio's ERA+ was 82(!) last year? That's right, 82! Ritchie-esque. And people would be happy giving up the our second or third-best hitter for him?

It's not like this year is a fluke, either. 2001 ERA+: 100. Yes, he had some decent years in Colorado, but he was barely average in pitcher-friendly Dodger Stadium. Astacio would put up ugly numbers in Comiskey.

Wanne
12-12-2002, 08:02 PM
I remember that deal being kicked around last and personally I think I'd rather have El Duque than Pistachio...who really hasn't done much the last few. Not that El Duque has torn it up or anything. But if Vasquez is out of the question...El Duque would be my man.

Daver
12-12-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Wanne
El Duque would be my man.

Do the Sox really need a pitcher over the age of forty right now?

HawkDJ
12-12-2002, 09:53 PM
After personally watching Astacio pound the Sox this past season I defeinitly want him.

jeremyb1
12-12-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
<<<he has serious health concerns, he makes 7 million next year, the mets want to deal him to clear salary, and his era was 7 after the break last season. if kw were to give up anything more than a fringe prospect he'd truly be staking a claim to the worst gm in baseball and then some.>>>

He obviously got worn down last year towards the end of the year. Here is an intresting stat-

ERA after the 8/6 complete game 3 hitter- 2.95

ERA from 8/11-9/27 went from 3.14 to 4.79. In a month and a half! In that span he pitched 45 innings, giving up 54 runs! Before the All-Star break he was getting Cy Young considerations. He would be the perfect fit in our rotation. With our bullpen, we can also limit his workload so he doesn't get worn down towards the end of next year. I hope KW pulls the trigger on this one.

he had a torn rotator cuff he never had surgery on. why are you so confident he was simply overworked and we could control that? if his health is a concern it doesn't necesarily matter how much he pitches.

WinningUgly!
12-12-2002, 11:36 PM
There's no way in hell, I'd give up Carlos Lee for Pedro Astacio! You have to be kidding, right? Astacio is not a big money pitcher just because he makes big money! The guy will be 34 next season, will be making at least $7M (can rise to $11M with 230IP) & will be a free agent at the end of the season. His 4.79 era in '02 was the best he's had since '97. He's been in the league for 10 seasons & has a career era of 4.53 - not exactly #2 starter material. His number will only get worse over in the AL facing DHs instead of pitchers. :D: No thanks!

Lip Man 1
12-12-2002, 11:41 PM
Hernandez has been rumored to be including in the package the Yankees are sending to Montreal for Colon. Hernandez, Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera.

Lip

Tragg
12-13-2002, 12:08 AM
The media has hyped astocio since forever. The time that they wanted garland and wells was when he was big mid season trade commodity. Oh, and before we laugh at garland and wells, we gave wells and fogg et al for ritchie.
Astascio is not a front line pitcher. Lee actually had a very good second half last year; this would be a stupid trade.

jeremyb1
12-13-2002, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hernandez has been rumored to be including in the package the Yankees are sending to Montreal for Colon. Hernandez, Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera.


i don't see how the expos can get a better deal than that. i'd do that in a second if i were them. then i'd probably turn around and trade el duque.

voodoochile
12-13-2002, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Wanne
I remember that deal being kicked around last and personally I think I'd rather have El Duque than Pistachio...who really hasn't done much the last few. Not that El Duque has torn it up or anything. But if Vasquez is out of the question...El Duque would be my man.

Hey, welcome aboard...

MarkEdward
12-13-2002, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i don't see how the expos can get a better deal than that. i'd do that in a second if i were them. then i'd probably turn around and trade el duque.

Hernandez is too old, Rivera is a borderline third outfielder at best, and power-hitting first basemen are a dime a dozen. The Expos would probably want a few (like, three) pitching prospects, as well as a Hank Blaylock-type hitting prospect.

kermittheefrog
12-13-2002, 03:39 AM
Lee for Astacio would be a terrible deal. I've already touched upon Lee's value. Astacio sucks. He's pretty much guarenteed to miss a handful of starts a year and over the last two years he hasn't been good when he has pitched. He was mediocre in 2001 and downright terrible in 2002. He had a high ERA in a pitchers park in the NL. Astacio is a recipe for disaster. Wouldn't suprise me if we landed him, he seems like a K-Willy kind of pickup.

SoxxoS
12-13-2002, 10:25 AM
I didn't know about the torn rotator cuff....So, does he still have it or did he have surgery or what??


Did any of you guys see him pitch last year before the break. He was unhittable. I can't say that for ANY of our starting pitchers last season at any time...

34 Inch Stick
12-13-2002, 01:02 PM
I thought Buhrle had a stretch of over 20 innings without giving up a run last year. He has been at the top of the AL in ERA for two straight years. I guess you must take the word unhittable very litterally.

jeremyb1
12-13-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Hernandez is too old, Rivera is a borderline third outfielder at best, and power-hitting first basemen are a dime a dozen. The Expos would probably want a few (like, three) pitching prospects, as well as a Hank Blaylock-type hitting prospect.

rivera is the yankees top prospect and i think he's more than a "borderline outfielder at best". tsn news rated him the 47th best prospect in baseball towards the beginning of the season (ahead of bobby hill, three spots behind crede) and would probably rank higher now. that deal would be about the equivalent of us offering borchard and crede which we're not about to do.

Bobby Thigpen
12-13-2002, 02:28 PM
We need to stay as far away as possible from Astacio.

kermittheefrog
12-13-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Did any of you guys see him pitch last year before the break. He was unhittable. I can't say that for ANY of our starting pitchers last season at any time...

But if his overall numbers sucked how does that make him better than most other pitchers that are available? Or even make him good. Even terrible players have hot streaks. I'm not saying Astacio is terrible but he's not good.

MarkEdward
12-13-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
rivera is the yankees top prospect and i think he's more than a "borderline outfielder at best". tsn news rated him the 47th best prospect in baseball towards the beginning of the season (ahead of bobby hill, three spots behind crede) and would probably rank higher now. that deal would be about the equivalent of us offering borchard and crede which we're not about to do.

Rivera's stock took a plummet after his injury. I'm not saying he's useless, but the Expos would probably need about two top 50 prospects for the trade to be pulled off.

Once again: Borchard, as a power-hitting center fielder, is extremely valuable. Crede is very good with the glove, and a great hitter. I'd say they're more valuable than Rivera and Johnson (not to say both these players will be very good).