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Vsahajpal
12-09-2002, 10:44 PM
Why? Just, why?

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-021209sox,0,4923494.story?coll=cs%2Dhome%2Dheadlin es

DrCrawdad
12-09-2002, 10:45 PM
ChicagoSports.com Article... (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-021209sox,0,4923494.story?coll=cs%2Dhome%2Dheadlin es)

Koch expects Twins to fall
New Sox reliever says Minnesota's run of luck over

DVG
12-09-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
ChicagoSports.com Article... (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-021209sox,0,4923494.story?coll=cs%2Dhome%2Dheadlin es)

Koch expects Twins to fall
New Sox reliever says Minnesota's run of luck over

That's just terrific. The very LAST guy who should be blabbering
about the Twins is shooting his mouth off.

jeremyb1
12-09-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Why? Just, why?

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-021209sox,0,4923494.story?coll=cs%2Dhome%2Dheadlin es

i fail to see the problem. i wouldn't want our players to feel like we can't compete with the twins. koch said he thought it'd be a battle. there's a distinct difference between saying the twins are nothing to worry about and being overconfident and saying that we can play with the twins and refusing to be intimidated by them. also, i agree word for word with everything koch says. i think its good for him to have some pride in his team.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2002, 12:31 AM
Jeremy:

Weren't you the one who posted that you didn't think the Twins would be as "motivated" this year because they aren't going to be contracted?

Seems like the Twins just got their "motivation."

It's bad enough the Sox only get cheap players, now it looks like they've cornered the market on stupid ones to boot. I guess we should expect that...look at the owner.

It one thing to shoot your mouth off when you are clearly superior and have some something to prove it. The Sox have done SQUAT the past two years after they have shot their mouths off.

Consider yourself warned (about the 2003 season)

Lip

jeremyb1
12-10-2002, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy:

Weren't you the one who posted that you didn't think the Twins would be as "motivated" this year because they aren't going to be contracted?

Seems like the Twins just got their "motivation."

It's bad enough the Sox only get cheap players, now it looks like they've cornered the market on stupid ones to boot. I guess we should expect that...look at the owner.

It one thing to shoot your mouth off when you are clearly superior and have some something to prove it. The Sox have done SQUAT the past two years after they have shot their mouths off.

Consider yourself warned (about the 2003 season)

Lip

i don't think the twins will do as well but i wasn't the one who made the comment about motivation as related to the strike. i don't profess to have a great deal of knowledge about the drive of professional athletes and i may come across as somewhat naive here but to me it seems like every team should be giving their all every single game. if a team like the twins needs the white sox to insult them in order for them to be highly motivated and to play there best, i think that's ridiculous.

also, i don't see how it doesn't work both ways. shouldn't we be just as motivated as the twins so that we don't put our foot in our mouthes? maybe we want to be motivated because we've been written off as a fluke after winning 95 games in '00. i certainly feel an intense dislike for the twins and desire to beat them as a fan. if our players can't feed off of that, we have bigger problems than running our mouthes.

what did gardenhire say? "i hope they have cable so they can watch us in the playoffs"? who's being overconfident with statements like that? do you think the twins give us the benefit of the doubt of being as good or better than them? i don't think so and there's no way they're a lock to win 95 games again in my mind. look at their pathagorean record, look at the way they beat up on our division last season. koch is exactly right, they were lucky a lot of times. lets see if they can do it again.

hold2dibber
12-10-2002, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i don't think the twins will do as well but i wasn't the one who made the comment about motivation as related to the strike. i don't profess to have a great deal of knowledge about the drive of professional athletes and i may come across as somewhat naive here but to me it seems like every team should be giving their all every single game. if a team like the twins needs the white sox to insult them in order for them to be highly motivated and to play there best, i think that's ridiculous.

also, i don't see how it doesn't work both ways. shouldn't we be just as motivated as the twins so that we don't put our foot in our mouthes? maybe we want to be motivated because we've been written off as a fluke after winning 95 games in '00. i certainly feel an intense dislike for the twins and desire to beat them as a fan. if our players can't feed off of that, we have bigger problems than running our mouthes.

what did gardenhire say? "i hope they have cable so they can watch us in the playoffs"? who's being overconfident with statements like that? do you think the twins give us the benefit of the doubt of being as good or better than them? i don't think so and there's no way they're a lock to win 95 games again in my mind. look at their pathagorean record, look at the way they beat up on our division last season. koch is exactly right, they were lucky a lot of times. lets see if they can do it again.

Even if you agree with everything Koch said, there's still no decent reason for saying it publicly. Why would you possibly want to give your toughest division rival something to put on the bulletin board. There's no upside and there is down side (from every media account I heard last year, Durham's boneheaded comments last off season did have a motivating effect on the Twins).

PaleHoseGeorge
12-10-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Even if you agree with everything Koch said, there's still no decent reason for saying it publicly. Why would you possibly want to give your toughest division rival something to put on the bulletin board. There's no upside and there is down side (from every media account I heard last year, Durham's boneheaded comments last off season did have a motivating effect on the Twins).

Exactly. Just whisper a bunch of sweet-nothings about your opponent into their ear through the headlines. Say all the right things; how talented they are, how much you respect them, blah, blah, blah... lie your pants off, it doesn't mean ****. Keep what you really think within the clubhouse.

AFTER you've beaten them up you can crow. After you've beaten them, you might indulge yourself by crowing some more before the new season begins. Koch didn't do this.

Nope. The Sox haven't solved how to beat the Twins now for three straight seasons and Koch comes off sounding like a punk. Perfect bulletin board material for a Twins team that already had a chip on its shoulder, thanks to the last moron from the Sox to shoot his mouth off.

:ray
"I taught Billy everything I know when I was in Oakland!"

cheeses_h_rice
12-10-2002, 09:22 AM
In the immortal words of Bart Simpson, aye f*cking carrumba.

What an IDIOT.

Blueprint1
12-10-2002, 09:38 AM
bulletin board material is over rated. If your team needs that to become motivated your not very good to begin with. Do you guys really think the Twins won the division because Ray Durham said that the Sox would beat them? I for one don't think so. I think they won because they were the better team. Maybe Durham's comments helped motivate them for a few games but baseball is 162 game season. One players comments cannot get you through that many games. So pipe down I like to hear our players talking about winning. Everyone is looking for a reason to hate this guy already. I can't imagine what this board will look like if he blows a save early in the year. You people will be booing him before he ever gets a chance.

cheeses_h_rice
12-10-2002, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
bulletin board material is over rated. If your team needs that to become motivated your not very good to begin with. Do you guys really think the Twins won the division because Ray Durham said that the Sox would beat them? I for one don't think so. I think they won because they were the better team. Maybe Durham's comments helped motivate them for a few games but baseball is 162 game season. One players comments cannot get you through that many games. So pipe down I like to hear our players talking about winning. Everyone is looking for a reason to hate this guy already. I can't imagine what this board will look like if he blows a save early in the year. You people will be booing him before he ever gets a chance.

I'm not booing Billy Koch, per se -- I think he's a fine reliever.

But what I am rolling my eyes at is a player making THE EXACT SAME COMMENT as a certain other player made before last season, a comment that ended up being turned back on the Sox like a dagger (and then on to the A's -- more than one Twins player commented about how sweet it was that Ray Durham made the last out against the Twins in the playoffs).

Even if Koch thinks the Twins are due to fall, how about just shutting your mouth about it and just doing it on the field? I agree that any team that "needs" bulletin board material to get motivated is a poor excuse for a team, but why even tempt fate a second time here?

Certain Twins players are a bunch of self-absorbed, chip-on-their-shoulder, cocky punks. Koch's comments WILL be relived during the year, mark it.

Kilroy
12-10-2002, 11:06 AM
Big flippin deal. The Twins weren't as good as the rest of the Central was bad. I think expects the Sox to show up for thw whole season this year.

Maybe if the Sox showed up to play for the entire season last year, instead of just a few months of it, they would have challenged for the division.

SoxxoS
12-10-2002, 11:11 AM
Does anyone think that Billy Koch's statements about the Twins were valid? Did every bounce go their way? Were the baseball Gods on their side? Are the Twins going to fall apart this year. Do the Sox have a legit chance to win the Central, and why?

What I am asking is if you agree with what he said, not IF he should have said it...

Just curious to hear what everybody has to say about the AL central race this year.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2002, 11:27 AM
Blueprint 1 says: "So pipe down I like to hear our players talking about winning.

Talk is cheap, let's actually SEE the winning.

Also something to think about when comparing the intangibles (heart etc...)between the two clubs.

In 2001 the Sox lost most of their pitching staff to injuries and had to have a substancial second half just to finish with 83 wins...

In 2002 the Twins lost MAYS, RADKE, and MILTON for sizable stretches of the year and STILL blew away the rest of the division.

Also when you think about it, perhaps the Twins "can't miss kids" like Loshee and Santana are actually better then the Sox "can't miss kids." They performed under difficult circumstances and got to October while the Sox "can't miss kids" did very little to put the Sox back in the race in 01.

Lip

stingo
12-10-2002, 11:41 AM
lucky and unlucky bounces tend to average out over the course of 162 games. Another intangible that can't be measured by stats is fire in the belly, and I expect the sox to have more of that next year. For example, one case in point, Frank Thomas, has a lot to prove this year.

Twins were all about desire and motivation last year, with contraction and getting no respect, etc. This year, all that desire and motivation better be on the Sox's side, which is why Koch's statement hurts their cause.

But anybody can have it all come together in a given year -- luck, talent, motivation, etc. At this time last year, how many thought it was going to be the Angels winning it all.

So yes, the Sox can compete, but who knows, maybe it finally all comes together this year for the Royals or Indians or some other surprise team. (Speaking of the Indians, why does it seem like every other GM out is there is doing their damndest to help them reload with young talent?)

jeremyb1
12-10-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
bulletin board material is over rated. If your team needs that to become motivated your not very good to begin with. Do you guys really think the Twins won the division because Ray Durham said that the Sox would beat them? I for one don't think so. I think they won because they were the better team. Maybe Durham's comments helped motivate them for a few games but baseball is 162 game season. One players comments cannot get you through that many games. So pipe down I like to hear our players talking about winning. Everyone is looking for a reason to hate this guy already. I can't imagine what this board will look like if he blows a save early in the year. You people will be booing him before he ever gets a chance.

very well put. is it wise for koch to make comments like this? i don't know. maybe not. i suppose its not polite. however, some of you act like we just lost the division with that comment which i find to be beyond ridiculous. its just like people trying to argue the sox can't win games unless valentin is at ss bringing his intangibles onto the field. please, give me a break. we can win games without the spiritual presence of jose at ss and the twins can win games without motivation from our players. baseball is determined by a lot more than bulletin board comments or i wouldn't dedicate so much time to it.

also, no one has yet explained to me how its not a double edged sword? if its a rivalry why doesn't it work both way and why can't comments like this motivate our team even more than the twins?

moochpuppy
12-10-2002, 11:48 AM
Koch has an ongoing fued with A.J. Piersyzski of the Twins going back to last season after supposedly AJ made some derogatory comments to Koch.

These 19 games against the Twins this season should be alot of fun. Bench clearing here we come!

JasonC23
12-10-2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Does anyone think that Billy Koch's statements about the Twins were valid? Did every bounce go their way? Were the baseball Gods on their side? Are the Twins going to fall apart this year. Do the Sox have a legit chance to win the Central, and why?

What I am asking is if you agree with what he said, not IF he should have said it...

Just curious to hear what everybody has to say about the AL central race this year.

For what it's worth, the Twins' expected record, based on their runs scored and runs allowed, was 87-74. Their actual record was 94-67, a +7.

Also for what it's worth, the Sox' expected record was 87-75. Their actual record was 81-81, a -6.

Food for thought...

jeremyb1
12-10-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

In 2002 the Twins lost MAYS, RADKE, and MILTON for sizable stretches of the year and STILL blew away the rest of the division.

Also when you think about it, perhaps the Twins "can't miss kids" like Loshee and Santana are actually better then the Sox "can't miss kids." They performed under difficult circumstances and got to October while the Sox "can't miss kids" did very little to put the Sox back in the race in 01.


lohse and santana may have outperformed mays, radke, and milton in '02 but i wouldn't argue its because they're top of the line pitchers, rather that mays, radke, and milton are horribly overrated. i'd say mays, radke, and milton are above average pitchers but i feel like the twins lack an ace and none of those pitchers are outstanding by any means. radke's career era is 4.30 (higher than that of ismael valdes who posters here claim is worthless), may's is 4.38, and milton's is 4.80. that's a pretty decent 2, 3, 4 combo if you ask me but considering their offense is less than spectacular i fail to see how thats the rotation of a division champion.

lohse is a year older than garland and bested garland's era by .3 last season. lets see if garland can't post an era of 4.3 this year. my guess is he can. santana is quite good and could be the twins best pitcher. that said, i wouldn't start the comparisons to buehrle just yet.

if you ask my personal opinion i feel its more or less undeniable that the twins had a great deal of luck last season which will be impossible to replicate. if you go to rob neyer's page at espn, he posts the entire pathagorean standings which determine a team's record based on runs scored and runs allowed. by those numbers, the sox and twins have the same pathagorean record with 87 wins apiece, meaning the twins seem to have played 7 games above their heads last season while the sox played 6 games below their ability. obviously numbers like this aren't full proof but they do measure luck and intangibles to some exent and these factors tend to level out over time suggesting that this season's race should be tighter.

Foulke You
12-10-2002, 12:15 PM
Koch is a man who still has the bad taste of Twinkee in his mouth after the 2002 playoffs. I don't care that much about what he said. It's good that he is excited about our chances and wants revenge against the Twins. He'll get plenty of chances (19 games) against the Twins in 2003.

The Sox have plenty of Twins quotes of their own to hang up in their locker room. Someone mentioned the Gardenhire quote already, how about Torii Hunter's swearing and trash talking the Sox in the dugout DURING a game last year after he hit a homerun? How about Torii Hunter saying after the Sox swept the Twinks in Comiskey "It's salary drive time for them. I'm not impressed."

For every Sox quote like Koch's, I can find a dozen that Torii Hunter has shared with the media. The bottom line is that it's all settled on the diamond. Those 19 games against the Twins will win or lose the division for the Sox.

Twins8791
12-10-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I think expects the Sox to show up for thw whole season this year.


Wow! How can you argue with that?!

Paulwny
12-10-2002, 01:19 PM
It's funny, teams that act more professional, yankmees under Torre, Braves under Cox, never seem to bad mouth an opponent.
After a brave/met series last May Cox told his players "The Mets are dead and I don't want this repeated to the press". This came out yesterday during an interview with Glavin.
What good does bad mouthing a team accomplish?

jeremyb1
12-10-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny

What good does bad mouthing a team accomplish?

i enjoy it as a fan. it is afterall just a game. when some of the twins players make comments as they've made i expect our guys to make comments in return. maybe the classy thing to do would be not to say anything but i enjoy baseball for its entertainment value so i enjoy it. it makes me feel more competitive.

voodoochile
12-10-2002, 02:22 PM
About damn time someone called the Sox on the carpet and asked them to back up some fighting words. This team needs a kick in the ass. If Koch comes out and backs up his statements with some late inning heroics, then they will follow his lead. I am tired of corpse ball, hopefully they are too...

Lip Man 1
12-10-2002, 04:37 PM
I guess the bottom line is this...the past two years the Twins have beat the Sox silly both head to head and in overall wins.

The Twins have been to the playoffs and finished second,(with a winning record), the Sox have talked and done nothing, finishing in 3rd place and in second with a .500 record.

Like Joe Namath said "it ain't bragging if you can do it..." So while the Twins have shot their mouths off as much as the Sox, they've actually done something about it besides make excuses.

If the Sox can go out and win 90 plus wins in 2003, they can also talk as much as they want.

Lip

bc2k
12-10-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
About damn time someone called the Sox on the carpet and asked them to back up some fighting words. This team needs a kick in the ass. If Koch comes out and backs up his statements with some late inning heroics, then they will follow his lead. I am tired of corpse ball, hopefully they are too...

Damn right, Voodoo. These guys are too comfortable playing us.

Pierzynski(sp) and Hunter have the biggest mouths in the league. Koch's upper 90's fastball needs to connect with AJ's and Torii's backs. Last year when Bob Howry hit Torii, John Rooney made the call that next time, Howry would knock the extra "i" of his name. Rooney was upset that Torii would not stop whining and staring at Howry. Classic.

Or how about Torii throwing the baseball back at a pitcher after he was hit with a pitch. The pitcher, who was wearing his glove, should have caught it and thrown it at him a second time. Torii Hunter is Sox enemy number 1. What a punk.

jeremyb1
12-10-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I guess the bottom line is this...the past two years the Twins have beat the Sox silly both head to head and in overall wins.

The Twins have been to the playoffs and finished second,(with a winning record), the Sox have talked and done nothing, finishing in 3rd place and in second with a .500 record.

Like Joe Namath said "it ain't bragging if you can do it..." So while the Twins have shot their mouths off as much as the Sox, they've actually done something about it besides make excuses.

If the Sox can go out and win 90 plus wins in 2003, they can also talk as much as they want.

the stuff about the twins pathagorean record wasn't meant to address their play the last two seasons as much as it was what to expect this season. i disagree that the twins can say whatever they want because they've played better and we're supposed to take it and say "yeah torii hutner is right we don't stand a chance against the twins and can only play hard as the result of a 'salary drive'". i don't see how that breed winning on our part.

Tragg
12-10-2002, 10:19 PM
Doesn't bother me - I guess I'd prefer some "we'll kick their arse" talk instead. No matter - we've played like a bunch of babies aginst them the last 2 years and it's time that changes. I like you already, BK.

RKMeibalane
12-10-2002, 10:30 PM
First Durham, then Koch. What's next? For some strange reason, I have a feeling we will be hearing from Royce Clayton in the near future.

:hitless

"I am looking foward to a productive 2003 season. I will reclaim my rightful position as the best shortstop in baseball. No power on Earth will prevent me from accomplishing my goals. I am invincible. The Chicago White Sox will regret the day they heard my name!"

The funny thing is, the Sox, as well as their fans, really do regret hearing Royce Clayton's name. Its mention usually coincided with a disaster at the plate.

Jerry_Manuel
12-13-2002, 09:33 PM
whitesox.com had this:

"I would've rather not have him make any statements that fuel the fire," Williams said. "They already have a chip. We need to take a step back as far as mouthing off on them."

voodoochile
12-13-2002, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
whitesox.com had this:

How much further can this team step back? Any less fire and they could be legally declared dead. I don't know if it is KW's spies, JM's tinkering, JR's constant harping on the fans and ex-players, or what. But, something needs to happen to light a fire under the players. Screw the Twins. First pitch of the first Twins game they ought to buzz the batters head and let the chips fall where they may. Let's see how the Twins respond to a dogfight. We know how they respond to the Sox rolling over and playing dead already...

Lip Man 1
12-13-2002, 10:56 PM
From Paul Sullivan's story on Day One at the Winter meetings which just hit the Trib's web site:

Williams also addressed the recent comments by new closer Billy Koch, who ripped into the Twins and argued they "got all the right bounces" in 2002 and were ready to fall.

"When you talk about people who have high competitive levels, it's very hard to reign that in," Williams said of Koch. "I think we'd all be better served if we respected the fact that the Minnesota Twins virtually have kicked our butts up and down the field for the last two years. Until we can prove otherwise and take our game up a level, we need to shut up and play the game."

Soxheads
12-13-2002, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
From Paul Sullivan's story on Day One at the Winter meetings which just hit the Trib's web site:

"The Sox inquired about Maddux last month, just as they asked about Alex Rodriguez two years ago. As with Rodriguez, Maddux's price tag was astronomical.

"I asked [agent] Scott Boras at the general managers' meeting what it would take [to sign Maddux], and there wasn't much need to meet further on the matter," Williams said.

And that ends that!

Lip

:KW
"Well, I heard about this Mike Maddux guy who is just as good at 1/4 the price. Where's the checkbook?"