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Viva Magglio
12-09-2002, 10:15 PM
I would say priority No. 1 is a No. 2 starter behind Burly-mon.

WinningUgly!
12-09-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I would say priority No. 1 is a No. 2 starter behind Burly-mon.

Steal the Montreal shopping cart!

CHISOXFAN13
12-09-2002, 11:30 PM
How bout signing Omar Daal before the Flubs do..

kermittheefrog
12-09-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
How bout signing Omar Daal before the Flubs do..

I think the Cubs being after Omar Daal is one of many signs we should stay the hell away from him.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2002, 12:50 AM
Actually ESPN.com is reporting that Daal is talking with the Brewers.

As far as the shopping cart...how about a new owner and new GM... unless that happens everything else is academic anyway.

Lip

joecrede
12-10-2002, 01:05 AM
I think Kenny is showing some improvement in his job. It started with the dumping of Alomar, Lofton and Durham, (not his fault there was a screw-up with compensation in the new deal,) and also moving Valentin back to short. Koch for three years is a good idea, I'd lock up Buehrle for three and Lee for a couple and take a chance on Leiber if the terms are right and be done with it.

Seeing the questions about Ramirez's health, I don't think there is anyone out there who can help us next year who would come at a reasonable price. Colon is too costly in terms of talent given up.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-10-2002, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think Kenny is showing some improvement in his job. It started with the dumping of Alomar, Lofton and Durham, (not his fault there was a screw-up with compensation in the new deal,) and also moving Valentin back to short. Koch for three years is a good idea, I'd lock up Buehrle for three and Lee for a couple and take a chance on Leiber if the terms are right and be done with it.

I agree if your point is KW has begun to admit his mistakes by correcting them. Losing Alomar, Lofton, and Clayton is definitely addition by subtraction.

However, this team has more holes today than it did when Kenny inherited it in October, 2000. I'm not convinced he has any clue how to fix it.

:reinsy
"And if he's working within my budget constraints, well you can just forget it!"

Hullett_Fan
12-10-2002, 09:20 AM
I think the Cubs being after Omar Daal is one of many signs we should stay the hell away from him.


Agreed...and his ERA was 3.90 and his home park was pitcher friendly Dodger Stadium.

We don't need another lefty...just the best available starter out there.

1) Colon
2) Vasquez
3) Ortiz

Anyone else available???

CHISOXFAN13
12-10-2002, 10:24 AM
That's right we don't need another lefty to match up with Mientkiewicz, Jones, Pierzynski, Kielty and the rest of the left-handed dominated Twinkies. Let's go sign another righty that their sticks can continue to dominate.

The Cubs want him so that's good enough reason to not go after him. Solid reasonsing.

duke of dorwood
12-10-2002, 11:28 AM
Right, lets beat them to someone for once. If we're gonna beat Minn., build a team that will. They were dismal vs. left handers.

Hullett_Fan
12-10-2002, 12:03 PM
That's right we don't need another lefty to match up with Mientkiewicz, Jones, Pierzynski, Kielty and the rest of the left-handed dominated Twinkies. Let's go sign another righty that their sticks can continue to dominate.


We should start Marte against them. :D:

RichH55
12-10-2002, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Right, lets beat them to someone for once. If we're gonna beat Minn., build a team that will. They were dismal vs. left handers.

Any one left handed or quality left handers? I dont want a guy because of the mythical ability of Lefties....I want the best guy avaible..that makes more sense to me

Foulke You
12-10-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Any one left handed or quality left handers? I dont want a guy because of the mythical ability of Lefties....I want the best guy avaible..that makes more sense to me

I agree. Colon, a right hander has a dominant record versus Central Division foes including the Twinks and he is right handed. I'm more for getting the better pitcher. A lefty would be nice but what good is a lefty who wins his 5 starts against the Twins and loses against every other team? There are plenty of right handed dominant lineups in baseball that can rough up a crappy left hander.

joecrede
12-10-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
However, this team has more holes today than it did when Kenny inherited it in October, 2000. I'm not convinced he has any clue how to fix it.

Interesting debate I think lets go back to 10/00.

Position Players: Basically four positions have changed:

C: CJ & MJ/Olivio: CJ has been awful since '00 and MJ is a backup at best. Olivio should be better than both next year. I'd say Advantage '03 here.

2B: Durham/Jimenez: Durham put up better numbers in '00 - '02 than Jimenez can be expected to put up next year. Jimenez won't be a sinkhole though. Advantage 10/00.

3B: Perry/Crede: Perry was adequate in '00-'01 and a little better than that in '02 with Tex. Crede's '03 will be better than Perry's '01-'02. Advantage '03.

CF: Singleton/Borchard & Rowand: If they stick with Borchard in CF this will be a major upgrade. Significant advantage '03.

Starters: In 10/00 Sirotka, Eldred, Baldwin, and Parque had or would soon need surgery. Right now they have 3/5 of a rotation. Even if you count the subtraction of K. Wells, I think they're in a little better shape here today. Slight Advantage '03.

Relief: If Munoz and Sanders earn spots I think the bullpen will be a little deeper than it was in '00 when Buehrle and Wunsch were our lefties. Foulke was better than anything they have today though. Advantage 10/00.

Overall, I think they are better positioned today than they have been at anytime since the playoffs of '00. I'm excited about the '03 season something I couldn't say at this time in '01 or '02.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-10-2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Interesting debate I think lets go back to 10/00.

Position Players: Basically four positions have changed:

C: CJ & MJ/Olivio: CJ has been awful since '00 and MJ is a backup at best. Olivio should be better than both next year. I'd say Advantage '03 here.

2B: Durham/Jimenez: Durham put up better numbers in '00 - '02 than Jimenez can be expected to put up next year. Jimenez won't be a sinkhole though. Advantage 10/00.

3B: Perry/Crede: Perry was adequate in '00-'01 and a little better than that in '02 with Tex. Crede's '03 will be better than Perry's '01-'02. Advantage '03.

CF: Singleton/Borchard & Rowand: If they stick with Borchard in CF this will be a major upgrade. Significant advantage '03.

Starters: In 10/00 Sirotka, Eldred, Baldwin, and Parque had or would soon need surgery. Right now they have 3/5 of a rotation. Even if you count the subtraction of K. Wells, I think they're in a little better shape here today. Slight Advantage '03.

Relief: If Munoz and Sanders earn spots I think the bullpen will be a little deeper than it was in '00 when Buehrle and Wunsch were our lefties. Foulke was better than anything they have today though. Advantage 10/00.

Overall, I think they are better positioned today than they have been at anytime since the playoffs of '00. I'm excited about the '03 season something I couldn't say at this time in '01 or '02.

Yeah you're right. How the hell did that '00 team ever win 95 games? It's a mir-aaaacle... :smile:

Am I safe in penciling you in for 100 wins in our '03 pre-season poll? Hell, we might win it all!

:)

pudge
12-10-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Interesting debate I think lets go back to 10/00.

Position Players: Basically four positions have changed:

C: CJ & MJ/Olivio: CJ has been awful since '00 and MJ is a backup at best. Olivio should be better than both next year. I'd say Advantage '03 here.

2B: Durham/Jimenez: Durham put up better numbers in '00 - '02 than Jimenez can be expected to put up next year. Jimenez won't be a sinkhole though. Advantage 10/00.

3B: Perry/Crede: Perry was adequate in '00-'01 and a little better than that in '02 with Tex. Crede's '03 will be better than Perry's '01-'02. Advantage '03.

CF: Singleton/Borchard & Rowand: If they stick with Borchard in CF this will be a major upgrade. Significant advantage '03.

Starters: In 10/00 Sirotka, Eldred, Baldwin, and Parque had or would soon need surgery. Right now they have 3/5 of a rotation. Even if you count the subtraction of K. Wells, I think they're in a little better shape here today. Slight Advantage '03.

Relief: If Munoz and Sanders earn spots I think the bullpen will be a little deeper than it was in '00 when Buehrle and Wunsch were our lefties. Foulke was better than anything they have today though. Advantage 10/00.

Overall, I think they are better positioned today than they have been at anytime since the playoffs of '00. I'm excited about the '03 season something I couldn't say at this time in '01 or '02.

Okay, let me be the second after PHG, and one of many I'm sure, to rip apart this reasoning.... the big problem is, you're comparing where the 2000 Sox players are NOW. Of course CJ is not as good, Sirotka's career is done, Perry is older than Crede... but I think PHG's point was that Kenny inherited a solid team, and instead of maintaining it, he created more holes...

Catcher - he went with Alomar, nice try, but it was bust IMO, and now it's a huge hole

2B - bye, bye Ray, and what did we get for him? (Kudos for stealing Jiminez though)

3B - I won't blame him here, hopefully Crede is better, but couldn't KW have done something better than put Clayton at short and move Valentine to 3B the past few seasons?

SS - See above

CF - come on, Borchard may be great some day, but to call him a major upgrade is insane. Singleton was no All-Star, but he was a steady player, much more than can be said for Mr. Borchard at this point. Kenny tried to get Erstad and FAILED. And he had NO backup plan.

Starters - That 2000 staff had a great season, and KW's attempts to maintain it (Wells, Ritchie) were pathetic. Will he do it this off-season? We'll see.

Bullpen -I do think KW did a nice job getting Osuna and Marte, but is the pen better than Foulke in his prime and Wunsch with his awesome 2000? Probably a wash.

Anyway, I think PHG is right in saying KW created more holes after 2000... we'll see if he can patch 'em up.

pudge
12-10-2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by pudge


CF - come on, Borchard may be great some day, but to call him a major upgrade is insane. Singleton was no All-Star, but he was a steady player, much more than can be said for Mr. Borchard at this point. Kenny tried to get Erstad and FAILED. And he had NO backup plan.



Oops, I forgot the temporary backup plan was Lofton - that was such a lame bust, I've forgotten about it already.

jeremyb1
12-10-2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Agreed...and his ERA was 3.90 and his home park was pitcher friendly Dodger Stadium.

We don't need another lefty...just the best available starter out there.

1) Colon
2) Vasquez
3) Ortiz

Anyone else available???

well you have to weigh the costs against the benefits though right? daal would cost something like 4 million maybe and we wouldn' t even have to give up a draft pick in return while colon is paid 8 million next year, wouldn't be on the team as long, and we could us several of our best young players. you're only looking at half the picture if you just go after the most talented player. if we can get ortiz for lee (which i don't think we can) and the expos ask for lee, rauch, and borchard for colon, clearly you take ortiz.

personally i'm not convinced rauch, borchard, another prospect, and 9 million dollars for colon and his era of 3 is a better move for the organization than 2 million for ismael valdes and his era of 4.

34 Inch Stick
12-10-2002, 05:12 PM
Wasn't this post originally about the White Sox heirarchy of needs (to borrow a phrase from psychology). Here they are as I see them.

1. Top Of The Rotation Starting Pitcher

2. Starting Center Fielder Who Can Lead Off

3. Backup Catcher

Now to relate it to earlier posts that looked into the past, I am looking into the not so distance past. The way back machine takes us to the same date last year. Our top priorities are

1. Top Of The Rotation Starting Pitcher

2. Starting Center Fielder Who Can Lead Off

3. Backup Catcher

Anyone who tells me Kenny is progressing has got a fight on their hands. Look up Peter Principle in the dictionary and there is a picture of Kenny (along with references to social engineering and the commissioners affirmative action mandate).

Daver
12-10-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick


1. Top Of The Rotation Starting Pitcher

2. Starting Center Fielder Who Can Lead Off

3. Backup Catcher



Don't you need a starting catcher,or are you content with Josh Paul behind the plate?

34 Inch Stick
12-10-2002, 05:24 PM
You are right Daver. I (like many others here) am projecting too many good things for Olivo before he really performs at the major league level. Change both of those 3's to starting. The same argument applies.

RichH55
12-10-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by daver
Don't you need a starting catcher,or are you content with Josh Paul behind the plate?

I think if people say backup catcher as a need its safe to assume they think Olivo can come in and start...

joecrede
12-10-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Okay, let me be the second after PHG, and one of many I'm sure, to rip apart this reasoning.... the big problem is, you're comparing where the 2000 Sox players are NOW.

Actually I was comparing where the 2000 Sox were AFTER Kenny took over.


but I think PHG's point was that Kenny inherited a solid team, and instead of maintaining it, he created more holes...

I thought PHG's original point was there are more holes in this team than the one he inherited 10/00.


Catcher - he went with Alomar, nice try, but it was bust IMO, and now it's a huge hole...

Alomar and Johnson last year was a huge hole. I believe Olivio will be an upgrade.


CF - come on, Borchard may be great some day, but to call him a major upgrade is insane. Singleton was no All-Star, but he was a steady player, much more than can be said for Mr. Borchard at this point.

Singleton was/is an out machine. Borchard will be a significant improvement if given the opportunity.

OneDog
12-10-2002, 06:09 PM
Olivo would be better off spending one more year in the minors to polish his game calling skills, which means at least a one year stopgap at catcher is necessary. Dan Wilson (good defense and game calling not a huge offensive liability) would have been a good pickup but the Chicago Area native resigned with the Mariners.

joecrede
12-10-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Wasn't this post originally about the White Sox heirarchy of needs (to borrow a phrase from psychology). Here they are as I see them.

1. Top Of The Rotation Starting Pitcher

2. Starting Center Fielder Who Can Lead Off

3. Backup Catcher

Now to relate it to earlier posts that looked into the past, I am looking into the not so distance past. The way back machine takes us to the same date last year. Our top priorities are

1. Top Of The Rotation Starting Pitcher

2. Starting Center Fielder Who Can Lead Off

3. Backup Catcher



Top of The Rotation Starter's aren't easy to come by. They'd be better off waiting to see if Garland or Wright take the next step in their development.

I disagree with you on the need for a CF'er who can lead off. Jimenez will be leading off and I think he'll do a good job there.


Anyone who tells me Kenny is progressing has got a fight on their hands.

Kenny has acquired Olivio, Marte, and Jimenez giving up essentially only Chad Bradford. Three holes filled for one solid set up guy is pretty shrewd. He also has held on to Borchard, Crede and Rauch. I was as upset as anyone over the Wells/Ritchie debacle, but there is evidence Kenny has learned from it.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-10-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Kenny has acquired Olivio, Marte, and Jimenez giving up essentially only Chad Bradford. Three holes filled for one solid set up guy is pretty shrewd. He also has held on to Borchard, Crede and Rauch. I was as upset as anyone over the Wells/Ritchie debacle, but there is evidence Kenny has learned from it.

Okay before this goes any further, I've got to ask.

Are you Kenny Williams?

:)

OneDog
12-10-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Okay before this goes any further, I've got to ask.

Are you Kenny Williams?

:)

The real KW would never admit that the Wells/Ritchie thing was a debacle. :D:

joecrede
12-10-2002, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by OneDog
The real KW would never admit that the Wells/Ritchie thing was a debacle. :D:

Sure he would, but he'd say Schu was responsible for it. :)

jeremyb1
12-10-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by pudge

Kenny tried to get Erstad and FAILED. And he had NO backup plan.

Oops, I forgot the temporary backup plan was Lofton - that was such a lame bust, I've forgotten about it already.

yeah, if only we'd had erstad's .702 ops (compared to lofton's .766 ops) we would've won the series like the angels.

34 Inch Stick
12-11-2002, 08:24 AM
Joe, my praise doesn't come as easily as yours. I don't consider keeping three VERY highly rated prospects (Crede, Borchard, Rauch) to be any sign of intelligence. The world would have done the same thing.

Olivo for Bradford has been a good trade for both sides (which is progress for Kenny, I guess).

Marte for Guerrier has worked out well. On the other hand all reports were that Marte was going to be cut by the Pirates in spring training. We could have had him for nothing. Looking at it from that perspective, we did overpay for Marte.

I think Jimenez was a steal. However, we have not seen him play for any real lenght of time. I am not positive that he will be a good leadoff hitter. I am not even positive that he is an everyday player.

I hate Kenny and I didn't like Schuler very much. Is this me being a pessimist or the the White Sox world that is wrong.