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hose
12-05-2002, 06:48 PM
In his Winter League post Jeremy brings up some great news on Jiminez and Willie Harris.

I would like to get some opinions on the Sox second bagger of the future. I believe this will be Jose Valentin's last season with the White Sox. Next year D'Angelo Jiminez will possibly take over at short leaving an opening to fill at second.

The name of Tim Hummel has come up on the message board quite a bit and of course Willie Harris was up with the club last year.

Aaron Miles, the Barons second baseman, led the Southern League with 171 hits, 39 doubles, and a solid .322 batting average . Miles had a .369 on base pct. and stole 25 bases. I am not 100% sure but I think he was named the Sothern League MVP.

Outside of reading his stats I don't know much about Aaron's fielding. Why doesn't Aaron's name come up more in discussion ?

doublem23
12-05-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by hose
Why doesn't Aaron's name come up more in discussion ?

Because he's about 30 years old.

Daver
12-05-2002, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Because he's about 30 years old.

He's 26,has never played above the AA level,and had 26 errors last season.

progers0826
12-05-2002, 07:08 PM
Miles will be 26 next year and is going to be invited to the Sox's spring training, provided another team doesn't claim him in the Rule 5 draft. He's an older minor-leaguer who has never played above Double A, so it's hard to see much upside although he was the Southern League MVP. He is the kind of guy a team needing second base help could take in the Rule 5 draft. Personally, I like Tim Hummel's chances, w/D'Angelo Jimenez moving to shortstop in 2004.

Daver
12-05-2002, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by progers0826
Miles will be 26 next year and is going to be invited to the Sox's spring training, provided another team doesn't claim him in the Rule 5 draft. He's an older minor-leaguer who has never played above Double A, so it's hard to see much upside although he was the Southern League MVP. He is the kind of guy a team needing second base help could take in the Rule 5 draft. Personally, I like Tim Hummel's chances, w/D'Angelo Jimenez moving to shortstop in 2004.

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

baggio202
12-05-2002, 07:40 PM
my understanding of miles is he is real short and not your prototypical ballplayer..there is that kid of prejudice in baseball...look how many teams passed on david eckstein because he didnt look like a SS...miles could be a possibility i guess...i havent seen him play so i cant comment on his talent but i wouldnt let him being 26 this year stop us from evaluating him fairly...some guys catch on late

also, he was buried in the astros farmsystem..not much room for 2nd baseman there over the past 10 years

RichH55
12-05-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
my understanding of miles is he is real short and not your prototypical ballplayer..there is that kid of prejudice in baseball...look how many teams passed on david eckstein because he didnt look like a SS...miles could be a possibility i guess...i havent seen him play so i cant comment on his talent but i wouldnt let him being 26 this year stop us from evaluating him fairly...some guys catch on late

also, he was buried in the astros farmsystem..not much room for 2nd baseman there over the past 10 years

Well I hope the kid gets a chance....but it probably isnt in Chicago...though there is a dearth of 2B around MLB, so the kid should have at least a shot

RichH55
12-05-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by progers0826
Miles will be 26 next year and is going to be invited to the Sox's spring training, provided another team doesn't claim him in the Rule 5 draft. He's an older minor-leaguer who has never played above Double A, so it's hard to see much upside although he was the Southern League MVP. He is the kind of guy a team needing second base help could take in the Rule 5 draft. Personally, I like Tim Hummel's chances, w/D'Angelo Jimenez moving to shortstop in 2004.

Welcome.....I like the very humble Rickey Henderson-esque Signature for your posts too :D:

jeremyb1
12-05-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by hose

Aaron Miles, the Barons second baseman, led the Southern League with 171 hits, 39 doubles, and a solid .322 batting average . Miles had a .369 on base pct. and stole 25 bases. I am not 100% sure but I think he was named the Sothern League MVP.

Outside of reading his stats I don't know much about Aaron's fielding. Why doesn't Aaron's name come up more in discussion ?

miles isn't considered to be much of a prospect because he doesn't have much in the way of physical tools and even more importantly because of his age. i believe miles was 26 or so last season and a good season in AA at that age isn't all that impressive. if he dominates at AAA this season he might bare watching. there are players like brian daubach, olmedo saenz and chris singleton who bloom late but they're usually still only medicre at best and not above average players.

as for the future of second base, i think the organization right now hopes that harris can hold down the position after this season in the event that jiminez moves to ss as expected. hummel would also be a good option if he truly has rediscovered his stroke. however, he's been quite streaky throughout his minor league career so i wouldn't count on it.

Chisoxfn
12-06-2002, 01:08 AM
Don't forget Edwin Yan.

This guy is a good prospect. Not many talk about him and theirs reasons for that. He doesn't have the greatest stick, but this guy reminds me of Luis Castillo. He's a slap hitter, with gap power. He won't out homer you, but the guy can absolutely fly. He set his teams record for steals last season and to me the guy will be good.

He has a ton to work on, but with his speed and he's very solid defensively, he could turn into a real good player.

Just teach him to work a walk and become a real good slap hitter cause if he's hitting the ball with force on the ground or on the line he will easily hit very well at the major league level.

Those are big if's though.

Also, Guillermo Reyes is a shortstop prospect right now, whose also at a lower level, but this guy is real good. He's got a great stroke and is solid defensively. If Jimenez catches on, but Hummell or Harris doesn't, you could easily see Jimenez hold 2nd and Reyes move in at short(He will be in AA next year and if this guy plays good, he could be a sleeper to get a shot as early as the year after this one).

kermittheefrog
12-06-2002, 05:02 AM
Assuming Joe Borchard and Miguel Olivo will begin the season in the majors, there isn't a single player in the Sox minors who has a strong chance of becoming an above average major leaguer.

hold2dibber
12-06-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Assuming Joe Borchard and Miguel Olivo will begin the season in the majors, there isn't a single player in the Sox minors who has a strong chance of becoming an above average major leaguer.

I assume you're talking about position players only? Or do you believe no one among Rauch, Honel, Malone, Stewart, Sanders, Ring, or Munoz has a strong chance of becoming an above average major leaguer?

kermittheefrog
12-06-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I assume you're talking about position players only? Or do you believe no one among Rauch, Honel, Malone, Stewart, Sanders, Ring, or Munoz has a strong chance of becoming an above average major leaguer?

Ruach and Honel are maybes and the others are OVER RATED. Ruach and Honel still have big question marks on their head. Rauch's his arm injury and Honel only has one year in the pros. Honel is probably going to land himself on a bunch of top 40-50 prospect lists. Chances are his 2003 season will be worse than his 2002 season just based on the fact that his 2002 was so good. And at some point he'll probably deal with an arm injury. When I'm ready to say Honel has a strong chance of being an above average starter is when he completes a half season of AA, still pitching at the level he is now and injury free.

Stewart and Sanders are being overrated because of one good AFL performance. Outside of that, look at their track records and look at their scouting reports, they are mediocre. Munoz and Ring are relief pitching prospects, as unpredictable as minor league starting pitchers are, relievers are worse. Finally Malone just had a terrible season that looks a lot like the way he pitched before his big 2001. If thats not bad enough he's out for the season with an arm injury.

The Sox system is in terrible shape right now.

jeremyb1
12-06-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Ruach and Honel are maybes and the others are OVER RATED. Ruach and Honel still have big question marks on their head. Rauch's his arm injury and Honel only has one year in the pros. Honel is probably going to land himself on a bunch of top 40-50 prospect lists. Chances are his 2003 season will be worse than his 2002 season just based on the fact that his 2002 was so good. And at some point he'll probably deal with an arm injury. When I'm ready to say Honel has a strong chance of being an above average starter is when he completes a half season of AA, still pitching at the level he is now and injury free.

Stewart and Sanders are being overrated because of one good AFL performance. Outside of that, look at their track records and look at their scouting reports, they are mediocre. Munoz and Ring are relief pitching prospects, as unpredictable as minor league starting pitchers are, relievers are worse. Finally Malone just had a terrible season that looks a lot like the way he pitched before his big 2001. If thats not bad enough he's out for the season with an arm injury.

The Sox system is in terrible shape right now.

i agree the system is in less than ideal shape right now but i think you're greatly exagerating. the word terrible when describing farm systems needs to be reserved for clubs such as the orioles, the red sox, or the brewers. we're probably not even in the lower third of teams in terms of minor league talent so i fail to see how terrible is a fitting label for our farm system.

first of all, borchard will almost definately start the season in the minors so this entire thread is more or less moot. rauch will most likely start the season in the rotation but he's still considered a prospect due to the number of innings he's pitched in the majors. is he still one of the top five prospects in baseball after arm surgery? no, but that doesn't mean he's a fringe major league player now. the concern about a player having surgery is that the player won't become the same pitcher. rauch was already throwing 93 on the gun in his first season back last year so there's really no reason to knock a former minor league player of the year's chances of success.

the problem with your post is that you're basing everything on prospects having "a strong chance to become above average players" at the major league level. if one takes that literally than virtually no prospect at least out of the top 10-20 prospects in baseball have a strong chance to become above average players. a lot of good prospects don't even make it to the big leagues and some like scott ruffcorn never amount to anything. prospects are not dependable. you have to realize it. that said we do have good prospects. honel is an excellent prospect. saying that any prospect who doesn't have a successful year of AA under his belt isn't a strong prospect is ridiculous. the players who eventually dominate the upper levels need to start somewhere.

if what you're really after is a guy who's close to ready for the big leagues and looks to be in a position to be a stong major leaguer, look no further than munoz or almonte. just saying that relief prospects are relief prospects are unreliable doesn't really mean anything. that's a blanket statement that in no way takes into account the actual pitchers being discussed here. clearly some minor league relievers do become very good pitchers. our organization has chosen to keep many valuable prospects as relievers in the minors as opposed to converting them to starters in the minors as most teams do. this obviously skews any assesment based on their work as starters or relievers in the minors.

kermittheefrog
12-06-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the problem with your post is that you're basing everything on prospects having "a strong chance to become above average players" at the major league level. if one takes that literally than virtually no prospect at least out of the top 10-20 prospects in baseball have a strong chance to become above average players. a lot of good prospects don't even make it to the big leagues and some like scott ruffcorn never amount to anything. prospects are not dependable. you have to realize it. that said we do have good prospects. honel is an excellent prospect. saying that any prospect who doesn't have a successful year of AA under his belt isn't a strong prospect is ridiculous. the players who eventually dominate the upper levels need to start somewhere.

if what you're really after is a guy who's close to ready for the big leagues and looks to be in a position to be a stong major leaguer, look no further than munoz or almonte. just saying that relief prospects are relief prospects are unreliable doesn't really mean anything. that's a blanket statement that in no way takes into account the actual pitchers being discussed here. clearly some minor league relievers do become very good pitchers. our organization has chosen to keep many valuable prospects as relievers in the minors as opposed to converting them to starters in the minors as most teams do. this obviously skews any assesment based on their work as starters or relievers in the minors.

1) There's no such thing as a pitching prospect. Pitching prospects = arm injuries, inconsistency, unpredictability.

2) Joe Borchard and Miguel Olivo are the only legit batting prospects in the system.

3) Joe Crede and Olivo were the only propects in the system who played up to expectations last year.

The system is mediocre at best. Considering our young major league club a weak wouldn't be a particularly terrible thing if it weren't for our inept GM. We're a team that using good drafting rather than overseas scouting to stock our system. Our last couple drafts haven't produced very many prospects.

jeremyb1
12-06-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
1) There's no such thing as a pitching prospect. Pitching prospects = arm injuries, inconsistency, unpredictability.

2) Joe Borchard and Miguel Olivo are the only legit batting prospects in the system.

3) Joe Crede and Olivo were the only propects in the system who played up to expectations last year.

The system is mediocre at best. Considering our young major league club a weak wouldn't be a particularly terrible thing if it weren't for our inept GM. We're a team that using good drafting rather than overseas scouting to stock our system. Our last couple drafts haven't produced very many prospects.

saying there's no such thing as pitching prospects is just semantics if you ask me. clearly its not the case that any minor league pitcher has just as good a chance of becoming a dominant major league pitcher as any other minor league pitcher so what you're arguing is that you can't count on minor league pitchers to produce. fine. i don't see what's so profound about the observation that minor league pitchers aren't as much of a sure thing as position players.

there's no reason this would make minor league pitchers worthless. i doubt baseball prospectus advocates teams no longer draft and develope minor league pitchers. clearly certain pitchers still have significantly better chances of becoming good major league pitchers than others and this means that minor league pitchers are not without value and completely unimportant when evaluating a team's system.

sure honel is nowhere near guaranteed of becoming a good major league pitcher but his chances of doing so are much better than a team like the orioles whose best pitcher is the equivalent of let's say brian west. for that reason honel still holds value and must be taken into consideration when evaluating our system. its not as though there are as many 25th round pick aces in the majors are there are first round picks.

RichH55
12-06-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
saying there's no such thing as pitching prospects is just semantics if you ask me. clearly its not the case that any minor league pitcher has just as good a chance of becoming a dominant major league pitcher as any other minor league pitcher so what you're arguing is that you can't count on minor league pitchers to produce. fine. i don't see what's so profound about the observation that minor league pitchers aren't as much of a sure thing as position players.

there's no reason this would make minor league pitchers worthless. i doubt baseball prospectus advocates teams no longer draft and develope minor league pitchers. clearly certain pitchers still have significantly better chances of becoming good major league pitchers than others and this means that minor league pitchers are not without value and completely unimportant when evaluating a team's system.

sure honel is nowhere near guaranteed of becoming a good major league pitcher but his chances of doing so are much better than a team like the orioles whose best pitcher is the equivalent of let's say brian west. for that reason honel still holds value and must be taken into consideration when evaluating our system. its not as though there are as many 25th round pick aces in the majors are there are first round picks.


Well played