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View Full Version : Since when did Garland and Wright become Mr. Consistancy #1 & 2 ?


SoxxoS
12-05-2002, 12:58 AM
<<<"If we can get the other two starters along with Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland and Dan Wright to just be competitive for six innings, I think it gives us an opportunity to win a lot of ballgames," says Manuel. >>>

TinkerKing is like setting in stone that we get 6 solid innings out of Garland and Wright. On a 10 scale going into the season, my worry level for Biddle and Rauch as starter #4 & 5 is about 7. My worry level for Garland and Wright as starter 2 & 3 is about 8. Don't forget, Garland and Wright are going to be facing the 2's and 3's of other staffs. At what point since game #162 did Garland and Wright become legit #2 and #3 starters? Was it October 14th? November 7th? December 2nd? I just don't know when that AP story came out so if you know, give me a holler back.

gogosoxgogo
12-05-2002, 01:05 AM
12/04/2002 5:55 pm ET

WinningUgly!
12-05-2002, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
<<<"If we can get the other two starters along with Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland and Dan Wright to just be competitive for six innings, I think it gives us an opportunity to win a lot of ballgames," says Manuel. >>>

TinkerKing is like setting in stone that we get 6 solid innings out of Garland and Wright. On a 10 scale going into the season, my worry level for Biddle and Rauch as starter #4 & 5 is about 7. My worry level for Garland and Wright as starter 2 & 3 is about 8. Don't forget, Garland and Wright are going to be facing the 2's and 3's of other staffs. At what point since game #162 did Garland and Wright become legit #2 and #3 starters? Was it October 14th? November 7th? December 2nd? I just don't know when that AP story came out so if you know, give me a holler back.

In case you missed it...
Jon Garland
August-record 1-2, era 3.23 in 5 starts
September-record 3-2, era 3.86 in 5 starts

Dan Wright
September-record 4-1, era 3.41 in 5 starts

Rocky Biddle
September-record 2-1, era 3.20 in 5 starts

Jon Rauch
September-record 2-0, era 3.21 in 2 starts & 1 game in relief

Lip Man 1
12-05-2002, 03:00 AM
I agree with the original thread poster.

THE SOX STILL BADLY NEED QUALITY STARTING PITCHING.

Garland and Wright BOTH won in double figures last season...they also BOTH lost in double figures last season.

That's not going to cut it.

If they are to make the next step up, they both have to win 14 - 16 games while cutting their losses down to the 7- 9 mark.

They have a better chance doing that matched up against most other teams #3 and #4 guys.

By hook or by crook the Sox have to find a way to get a pretty good hurler for the #2 slot.

It CAN be done! The Cubs got Matt Clement for Julian Tavaras for pete's sake!

Lip

HITMEN OF 77
12-05-2002, 03:12 AM
I never knew Biddle, Rauch, Wright and Garland had that good of the last 2 months of the season. Hopefully that can continue, but I would still like to see another strong #2 pitcher brought in, but I hate to sacrafice anyone for that. I heard maybe Lee might be on the blocks? C Lee, is going to be really good sometime soon, so I hope that we at least keep him.

RichH55
12-05-2002, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I agree with the original thread poster.

THE SOX STILL BADLY NEED QUALITY STARTING PITCHING.

Garland and Wright BOTH won in double figures last season...they also BOTH lost in double figures last season.

That's not going to cut it.

If they are to make the next step up, they both have to win 14 - 16 games while cutting their losses down to the 7- 9 mark.

They have a better chance doing that matched up against most other teams #3 and #4 guys.

By hook or by crook the Sox have to find a way to get a pretty good hurler for the #2 slot.

It CAN be done! The Cubs got Matt Clement for Julian Tavaras for pete's sake!

Lip


Jamie Moyer

RichH55
12-05-2002, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
I never knew Biddle, Rauch, Wright and Garland had that good of the last 2 months of the season. Hopefully that can continue, but I would still like to see another strong #2 pitcher brought in, but I hate to sacrafice anyone for that. I heard maybe Lee might be on the blocks? C Lee, is going to be really good sometime soon, so I hope that we at least keep him.

Its still alot to bank on a solid 2nd half, or last two months....Im hoping for the best of course...But Colon, Moyer, or Vasquez assuage alot of my fears

SoxxoS
12-05-2002, 11:24 AM
Those numbers you showed from Garland, Wright, Biddle and Rauch are great. But, in order to be consistant, you need to do that for the season. None of those guys have done that. Those numbers look promising, but I don't have the confidence that Jerry Manuel has setting in stone Garland and Wright for 6 solid innings. I hope KW makes a move to get Colon. I think if we had Bartolo, we would be big time contenders. Not only does Bartolo give you a CONSISTANT 18 game winner, he knocks everyone in the rotation down a notch. I am much more confortable having Garland facing the #3's of other staffs than the #2's. Wishful thinking...maybe. Maybe not? :o:

Hullett_Fan
12-05-2002, 11:43 AM
Here's where I see us finishing based on these scenarios:

Stay put with rotation as is: 87-91 wins (dogfight w/ Twins for division 50/50 chance of taking it -- definitely no wild card if we don't)

Add a third-tier guy like Ismael Valdes or Javier Vazquez : 90 - 94 wins, 75% of winning division

Add a second-tier guy like Moyer, Rogers: 92-96 wins, probably win division, but get swept in 1st round

Add a first-tier guy like Colon: 95-100 wins, compete and maybe get past 1st round

Add BOTH first AND second tier guy: 100+wins, and a good chance of ending this curse

Huisj
12-05-2002, 12:00 PM
vazquez is more than third tier

fuzzy_patters
12-05-2002, 01:14 PM
Those numbers you showed from Garland, Wright, Biddle and Rauch are great. But, in order to be consistant, you need to do that for the season. None of those guys have done that. Those numbers look promising, but I don't have the confidence that Jerry Manuel has setting in stone Garland and Wright for 6 solid innings. I hope KW makes a move to get Colon. I think if we had Bartolo, we would be big time contenders. Not only does Bartolo give you a CONSISTANT 18 game winner, he knocks everyone in the rotation down a notch. I am much more confortable having Garland facing the #3's of other staffs than the #2's. Wishful thinking...maybe. Maybe not?


Let's not forget that August and September were the unNardi months. With Don Cooper for a full season, it can be expected that our young pitchers are now free to reach their potential.

jeremyb1
12-05-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
vazquez is more than third tier

yeah. he's better than rogers and valdes and arguably as good or better than moyer at least in the long term. also while valdes would cost us only about two million dollars a year and a maybe a second round draft pick, vazquez would cost at least one player from the group of rauch, borchard, and honel and other key players.

Hullett_Fan
12-05-2002, 02:07 PM
yeah. he's better than rogers and valdes and arguably as good or better than moyer at least in the long term

Well, I guess I fall into the F.E.S. camp...I'm not a big stat-head. But I went and looked up their stats. Vasquez has had a couple good seasons (WHIP =1, 3.50-3.80 ERA) so I guess he would be 2nd tier...Rogers is more like 3rd tier the more I think about it.

BUT IMO, to win in 2003, I'd prefer to have the veteran presence of Moyer over Vazquez (which like you said would not cost us one of our top prospects) And forget about Valdes...too inconsistent. Would probably develop blisters in April like he did on the north side.

RichH55
12-05-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Well, I guess I fall into the F.E.S. camp...I'm not a big stat-head. But I went and looked up their stats. Vasquez has had a couple good seasons (WHIP =1, 3.50-3.80 ERA) so I guess he would be 2nd tier...Rogers is more like 3rd tier the more I think about it.

BUT IMO, to win in 2003, I'd prefer to have the veteran presence of Moyer over Vazquez (which like you said would not cost us one of our top prospects) And forget about Valdes...too inconsistent. Would probably develop blisters in April like he did on the north side.

Yes.....bring on Moyer

Ventura23Fan
12-05-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I am much more confortable having Garland facing the #3's of other staffs than the #2's.

Except for the first week of the season (and the playoffs if both teams clinch early enough), how often will Garland be matched up against the opposing team's #2? I think over the course of the season, Garland will face the #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 pitcher of the opposing team with just about equal probability.

I do think the Sox need another veteran starter, but as long as KW is GM, I'd prefer to acquire him via free agency instead.

gogosoxgogo
12-05-2002, 05:56 PM
I want Colon. I think he would do wonders for our team. I'd be willing to give up a Honel, a Lee, or similar players to get him. I believe Colon would do a lot more for us than Honel, Lee, etc. would. I'm ok to this so long as we can sign Colon to a multiyear deal. Please KW, give me a good X-mas present this year.

Daver
12-05-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
I want Colon. I think he would do wonders for our team. I'd be willing to give up a Honel, a Lee, or similar players to get him. My reason on Honel before I'm blasted is because we have Jimenez and Harris at 2nd/SS. I also believe Colon would do a lot more for us than Honel, Lee, etc. would. I'm ok to this so long as we can sign Colon to a multiyear deal. Please KW, give me a good X-mas present this year.

Have you ever seen Honel pitch?

gogosoxgogo
12-05-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by daver
Have you ever seen Honel pitch?

Have you ever seen Colon pitch?

Daver
12-05-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Have you ever seen Colon pitch?

Yes I have,and you didn't answer the question.

gogosoxgogo
12-05-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by daver
Yes I have,and you didn't answer the question.

I haven't, so I guess I can't make much of a judement on him... however, Colon is proven, he's young, and like someone said earlier, he's a guarenteed 18 wins.

spanishwhite
12-05-2002, 06:12 PM
Actually, if you go by the last seven starts that both Wright and Garland had, Garland had a record of about 3-2 with era of 2.80 or so and Wright was 5-1 with era of 3.14 or so.

That being said, I do not think that they are consistant. I do think that the optimism that Williams is showing is expectations for next year.

Daver
12-05-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
I haven't, so I guess I can't make much of a judement on him... however, Colon is proven, he's young, and like someone said earlier, he's a guarenteed 18 wins.

There is no guarantee on any pitcher.

RichH55
12-05-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by daver
Have you ever seen Honel pitch?


How did I know Daver might chime in when Honel was mentioned? :)

Jerry_Manuel
12-05-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by daver
There is no guarantee on any pitcher.

Well, we can guarantee Colon will still be fat if he gets traded to the Sox. :smile:

guillen4life13
12-05-2002, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Well, we can guarantee Colon will still be fat if he gets traded to the Sox. :smile:

Yep. It was so much fun in 2001 with my brother heckling him and calling him "Gordito." during Cleveland's hour of BP.

Colon is a very good pitcher, but I think that he is not as good as his value may say. He has been Cleveland's ace for a few years now, but considering what pitching Cleveland had/has, that's not too great an accomplishment. Last year, I believe was his 1st 20 win season. There have been many people to win 20 wins who went down the drain in the next two years because of injury or just because they had a career year. Don't ever expect someone to win 20 unless they have done it, or come extremely close to it year in year out.

Iwritecode
12-06-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Yep. It was so much fun in 2001 with my brother heckling him and calling him "Gordito." during Cleveland's hour of BP.

Colon is a very good pitcher, but I think that he is not as good as his value may say. He has been Cleveland's ace for a few years now, but considering what pitching Cleveland had/has, that's not too great an accomplishment. Last year, I believe was his 1st 20 win season. There have been many people to win 20 wins who went down the drain in the next two years because of injury or just because they had a career year. Don't ever expect someone to win 20 unless they have done it, or come extremely close to it year in year out.

Colon's career record:

1997: 4 - 7
1998: 14 - 9
1999: 18 - 5
2000: 15 - 8
2001: 14 - 12
2002: 20 - 8

It's not out of the question that he could win 20 again but l agree with Daver, 18 wins is not guaranteed. Although I would say he's a pretty good bet to win in double-digits and lose less than 10.

BTW... Daver, what's the deal with Honel? Is he a pitcher you wouldn't be willing to deal even if we got a pitcher like Colon in return?

RichH55
12-06-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Yep. It was so much fun in 2001 with my brother heckling him and calling him "Gordito." during Cleveland's hour of BP.

Colon is a very good pitcher, but I think that he is not as good as his value may say. He has been Cleveland's ace for a few years now, but considering what pitching Cleveland had/has, that's not too great an accomplishment. Last year, I believe was his 1st 20 win season. There have been many people to win 20 wins who went down the drain in the next two years because of injury or just because they had a career year. Don't ever expect someone to win 20 unless they have done it, or come extremely close to it year in year out.

How many 20 wins seasons do you need before you are considered pretty damn good?