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hose
12-04-2002, 08:09 PM
Jimenez-2b
Valentine-ss
Big Hurt-DH
Maggs-RF
Konerko-1b
Lee-Lf
Crede-3b
Olivo-c
Rowand-CF...?

If Jiminez can get on base at adecent rate I think the Sox can equal last year in run production.

The loss of Durham and Lofton will hurt the Sox in run production, but Crede and Valentine will add up to more than Valentine and Clayton. Olivo will be a gain over Johnson.

SouthSideHitman
12-04-2002, 11:23 PM
Jimenez-2B
Valentine-SS
Big Hurt-DH/1B
Maggs-RF
Konerko-1B/DH
Crede-3B
Leifer-LF
Olivo-c
Rowand/Harris-CF

Either Lee or Leifer will be gone if KW has any sense and I think it will be Lee just because of the money. So assuming that, our lineup looks slightly less solid unless Jeff reverts to 2001 form (what was it, a HR every 12 ABs?).

Also, a lot depends on how well Rowand recovers and wether "Hollywood" lives up to his hype. I don't know about Harris, but he can run and field and does have the raw talent. Rowand will probably be ok because of his compact swing.

Otherwise, Jimenez looks to be a great leadoff hitter because its all about the OPS. Lofton fizzeld and Ray was never great leading off so D' Angelo looks better to me. This lineup also would probably be more stable than the past two years, which is always good. BTW, doesn't playing Frank at first seem like asking for trouble? Besides, Pauly's underrated and is able to throw.

jeremyb1
12-04-2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by hose
Jimenez-2b
Valentine-ss
Big Hurt-DH
Maggs-RF
Konerko-1b
Lee-Lf
Crede-3b
Olivo-c
Rowand-CF...?

If Jiminez can get on base at adecent rate I think the Sox can equal last year in run production.

The loss of Durham and Lofton will hurt the Sox in run production, but Crede and Valentine will add up to more than Valentine and Clayton. Olivo will be a gain over Johnson.

looks quite good to me. i'd swap olivo and rowand though. olivo has some speed so he makes sense as a second leadoff hitter and rowand should probably at least be given the benefit of the doubt as a better hitter at this point if only due to his experience.

baggio202
12-05-2002, 12:25 AM
guys we gotta move lee...i cant go through another season of him getting picked off 3 times a week...has there ever been a ballplayer that is more unaware of what is going on around him then carlos...its like he is playing on acid or something..he hasnt a clue..

jeremy..in the line up you have 3 through 9 are all right handed..thats not good..

WinningUgly!
12-05-2002, 02:26 AM
Who's this "Valentine" guy?

If it was up to me, I'd have Jose Valentin at SS.http://www.themorlocks.com/talk/images/smiles/paul.gif

Jjav829
12-05-2002, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Who's this "Valentine" guy?

If it was up to me, I'd have Jose Valentin at SS.http://www.themorlocks.com/talk/images/smiles/paul.gif

Does anyone else think that KW meant to trade Jose Valentin and ended up trading Joe Valentine? :smile:

WinningUgly!
12-05-2002, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Does anyone else think that KW meant to trade Jose Valentin and ended up trading Joe Valentine? :smile:

LOL! I wouldn't put it past him. :)

RichH55
12-05-2002, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
guys we gotta move lee...i cant go through another season of him getting picked off 3 times a week...has there ever been a ballplayer that is more unaware of what is going on around him then carlos...its like he is playing on acid or something..he hasnt a clue..

jeremy..in the line up you have 3 through 9 are all right handed..thats not good..

I really want no part of moving Lee....Rowand is already holding down a spot, so that assumes LTP isnt ready just yet....Moving Lee means we get all the fun and unproductivity of Rowand and we get to rush LTP...joy.....of course if moving Lee means getting a resigned Colon, then we make the OF work...otherwise trading Lee for the sake of trading Lee is foolish

jeremyb1
12-05-2002, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
guys we gotta move lee...i cant go through another season of him getting picked off 3 times a week...has there ever been a ballplayer that is more unaware of what is going on around him then carlos...its like he is playing on acid or something..he hasnt a clue..

jeremy..in the line up you have 3 through 9 are all right handed..thats not good..

yeah that is a good point. problem is though that we have two switch hitters and no lefties in our lineup more than it is that valentin is batting second. since our lineup most likely isn't going to change much i don't really know what we do. i like valentin in the two hole and after last season i can't see him batting ahead of carlos even if it is to break up all the righties. at that point i don' t know that batting valentin 7th as opposed to second helps all that much. the reality is that we still have a lot of righties batting back to back. at some point i just think you line your best hitters up and forget about who bats right or left handed.

MikeKreevich
12-05-2002, 06:55 AM
Would'nt you love to see Lee packaged for Bartolo Colon, and have Borchard tear it up in spring training. There is your extra left handed batter in the line up.
A fellow can dream, can't he?

hose
12-05-2002, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Who's this "Valentine" guy?

If it was up to me, I'd have Jose Valentin at SS.http://www.themorlocks.com/talk/images/smiles/paul.gif


The e usually comes after Valentin, at least thats how the official scorer spells Joses's name.

hold2dibber
12-05-2002, 08:54 AM
I've got it all figured out. All the Sox have to do is trade Liefer, Wright, Olivo and Malone for Colon, then sign free agents Steve Finley and Pudge Rodriquez!

Line-up:

Jimenez - 2B
Rodriquez - C
Big Hurt - DH
Maggs - RF
Konerko - 1B
Finley - CF
Lee - LF
Valentin - SS
Crede - 3B

Rotation:

Buehrle
Colon
Garland
Ritchie
Biddle/Rauch

Man, it's so easy being a GM.

(I know, this whole post should be in deeppink, but I didn't want to burn anyone's retinas).

voodoochile
12-05-2002, 09:18 AM
No one is considering batting Lee second to take advantage of his new found walk-ability. That also move Valentin to 6th or 7th which breaks up your string of righties...

hold2dibber
12-05-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No one is considering batting Lee second to take advantage of his new found walk-ability. That also move Valentin to 6th or 7th which breaks up your string of righties...

With the starting line-up the Sox now have, I agree that that is the way go.

jeremyb1
12-05-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I've got it all figured out. All the Sox have to do is trade Liefer, Wright, Olivo and Malone for Colon, then sign free agents Steve Finley and Pudge Rodriquez!

Line-up:

Jimenez - 2B
Rodriquez - C
Big Hurt - DH
Maggs - RF
Konerko - 1B
Finley - CF
Lee - LF
Valentin - SS
Crede - 3B

Rotation:

Buehrle
Colon
Garland
Ritchie
Biddle/Rauch

Man, it's so easy being a GM.

(I know, this whole post should be in deeppink, but I didn't want to burn anyone's retinas).

i still haven't had anyone spell out the problem with rowand for me. i think our offense is good enough to win a world series right now. you don't need an all star at every position. crede as a number 7 hitter if he hits as well as he did last year indicates we have a pretty strong lineup.

as for wright, olivo, and malone for colon, i'd be more than agreeable to that but if the expos wouldn't take juan rivera and nick johnson no way they'd accept that deal. i'd also do carlos for colon in a heartbeat but that seems just as unlikely. any deal for colon would have to include honel, borchard, and/or rauch or garland. honel and borchard are said to be untouchable, many agree garland is on the cusp of greatness, and i feel like rauch is just too much to give up for a pitcher 6 years his senior who will leave as a free agent after one season at this point.

while its still unlikely rauch is a very special pitcher if healthy which he appears to be and its certainly possible for him to have a season resembling buehrle's '01 debut as a starter meaning he could be just as valuable as colon this season!! unlikely but certainly possible. the guy is 6'11 tops out at 94 and supposedly knows how to pitch. he might have the biggest upside of any pitcher we've had in a decade and we've had some excellent young pitchers.

hold2dibber
12-05-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i still haven't had anyone spell out the problem with rowand for me. i think our offense is good enough to win a world series right now. you don't need an all star at every position. crede as a number 7 hitter if he hits as well as he did last year indicates we have a pretty strong lineup.

as for wright, olivo, and malone for colon, i'd be more than agreeable to that but if the expos wouldn't take juan rivera and nick johnson no way they'd accept that deal. i'd also do carlos for colon in a heartbeat but that seems just as unlikely. any deal for colon would have to include honel, borchard, and/or rauch or garland. honel and borchard are said to be untouchable, many agree garland is on the cusp of greatness, and i feel like rauch is just too much to give up for a pitcher 6 years his senior who will leave as a free agent after one season at this point.

while its still unlikely rauch is a very special pitcher if healthy which he appears to be and its certainly possible for him to have a season resembling buehrle's '01 debut as a starter meaning he could be just as valuable as colon this season!! unlikely but certainly possible. the guy is 6'11 tops out at 94 and supposedly knows how to pitch. he might have the biggest upside of any pitcher we've had in a decade and we've had some excellent young pitchers.

If Rowand starts all year, my guess is he hits .258/.302/.422 with maybe 18 HRs and 55 RBIs. I'd like to get more out of CF and I'd like another left handed bat in the order.

I don't know enough about Rivera and and Johnson to know if they're a more inticing combo than Liefer/Olivo/Wright/Malone, but I wasn't too serious about that anyway, because I wouldn't want to deal Olivo.

What do you think it would take to pry Vaquez from them?

harwar
12-05-2002, 02:06 PM
I'm expecting a monster season from C.Lee this year(of course i've been saying this for 3 seasons running).

Paulwny
12-05-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by harwar
I'm expecting a monster season from C.Lee this year(of course i've been saying this for 3 seasons running).

I guess I wasn't alone in this thinking.

nut_stock
12-05-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


What do you think it would take to pry Vaquez from them?


$$$$$$. And since Kenny loves to give cash along with players in the deal, we may have a shot!!!

jeremyb1
12-05-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If Rowand starts all year, my guess is he hits .258/.302/.422 with maybe 18 HRs and 55 RBIs. I'd like to get more out of CF and I'd like another left handed bat in the order.

I don't know enough about Rivera and and Johnson to know if they're a more inticing combo than Liefer/Olivo/Wright/Malone, but I wasn't too serious about that anyway, because I wouldn't want to deal Olivo.

What do you think it would take to pry Vaquez from them?

see i think that production from rowand would be sufficent and that he could probably hit .280. that's just me i guess.

i'm guessing vazquez will take almost as much as colon to pry away because he makes less, he has more years left on his deal, and his younger.

RichH55
12-05-2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
see i think that production from rowand would be sufficent and that he could probably hit .280. that's just me i guess.

i'm guessing vazquez will take almost as much as colon to pry away because he makes less, he has more years left on his deal, and his younger.

Package deal then:) Get em both...hell if we are going to think big, think big! Though for Colon I dont want to deal for him unless he is extended, he will cost too much to be a rent a player

hose
12-05-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
guys we gotta move lee...i cant go through another season of him getting picked off 3 times a week...has there ever been a ballplayer that is more unaware of what is going on around him then carlos...its like he is playing on acid or something..he hasnt a clue..

jeremy..in the line up you have 3 through 9 are all right handed..thats not good..


Last year against right handed pitching the Sox as a team hit .273ave. .802 ops.

Against left handed pitching the Sox as a team hit

.252ave. .737 ops.

(ops = on base pct + slugging pct)

jeremyb1
12-05-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Package deal then:) Get em both...hell if we are going to think big, think big! Though for Colon I dont want to deal for him unless he is extended, he will cost too much to be a rent a player

that's the thing. it seems next to impossible that we will extend colon. he's expected to be about as big as any free agent on the market next season and if we can't afford maddux or glavine we can't afford colon. even if we acquired vazquez we'd probably only have him for two seasons which while its much better than one still isn't that long.

RichH55
12-05-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
that's the thing. it seems next to impossible that we will extend colon. he's expected to be about as big as any free agent on the market next season and if we can't afford maddux or glavine we can't afford colon. even if we acquired vazquez we'd probably only have him for two seasons which while its much better than one still isn't that long.


Assuming that is the case, I'd rather get vazquez....either is going to cost you, but we don't have the kind of club where we can move good talent for a one year guy

SouthSideHitman
12-07-2002, 12:29 AM
Yeah, when and if the Sox deal for a starter, it needs to be for the long term, personally, i think that Colon would be far too expensive in terms of what we would give up, for Christ's sake, he's #1 on George's wish list. I say deal for Vasquez and move Raunch up to the #5 spot out of Spring training. What do you have to lose? Biddle is better in the bullpen and if I never see Todd Ritchie in a Sox jersey again, i'd be happy.

As for Rowand, he seems (I hate using this phrase) injury-prone. I love his style of play, but I worry about seeing him out there every day. But with Harris tearing it up in winter ball and Borchard rising fast, it may become moot.

maurice
12-12-2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No one is considering batting Lee second to take advantage of his new found walk-ability. That also move Valentin to 6th or 7th which breaks up your string of righties...

This was debated extensively on this board about a month ago. I was strongly in favor of batting CLee or Crash second and moving Manos down in the lineup.

RichH55
12-12-2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by maurice
This was debated extensively on this board about a month ago. I was strongly in favor of batting CLee or Crash second and moving Manos down in the lineup.

Crash 2nd??!?!? Lee I can see the logic, but Crash?

maurice
12-16-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Crash 2nd??!?!? Lee I can see the logic, but Crash?

I'm a closeted member of FOC. Guess I just outed myself.
:)