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View Full Version : ANOTHER Quote Of The Day


Lip Man 1
12-04-2002, 01:17 PM
The list of players making comments about Chicago's "favorite" GM gets longer by the day. Here's Keith Foulke (again) to the Daily Southtown's Joe Cowley:

"Frank Thomas, Jeff Liefer and Ray Durham have taken shots at Williams and a coaching staff that was labeled "hall monitors" by Durham. Foulke added his opinion to the mix.

"I definitely think we had some things going on between the staff and the players that were bush league," Foulke said.

"You had coaches and individuals tattling on the players. That's not a good thing. As far as the rest of the stuff that went, I'm with Oakland now, so I'm going to let it go."

Foulke did discuss how a team that won its division in 2000 couldn't duplicate that feat despite having the same key players for the most part.

"We've needed a team leader someone to take charge and cut the (nonsense)," Foulke said. "I think we lost a couple of key players in the clubhouse with (former pitchers) Cal Eldred and James Baldwin.

"J.B. was the court jester, and Cal was the father figure. When we lost those guys, we lost some life. (The Sox) need to start handling things in a different way, but like I said, that's no longer my business."

Lip

duke of dorwood
12-04-2002, 01:21 PM
Several "chemistry" players were let go by this regime and Royce Claytons and Loftons and David Wells type players added to a team this type of manager couldn't deal with. While they werent big stars, JB, Greg Norton, Jeff Abbott and Chris Singleton were well liked and never moaned about things or their roles.

HITMEN OF 77
12-04-2002, 01:35 PM
I was always a fan of Herbert "the milk man" Perry. I thought he played a big role in the 2000 season and was a decent 3rd baseman. I never understood why he was let go. Is Norton on the Devil Rays now? Isn't Baldwin a free agent, I think the Mariner's let him go.

pearso66
12-04-2002, 03:08 PM
i dont know about norton on the devil rays, i know last year he played with the rockies, i was never a fan of norton, but the Milkman and JB i almost always enjoyed watching, JB scared me some times when he was out there

jeremyb1
12-04-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Several "chemistry" players were let go by this regime and Royce Claytons and Loftons and David Wells type players added to a team this type of manager couldn't deal with. While they werent big stars, JB, Greg Norton, Jeff Abbott and Chris Singleton were well liked and never moaned about things or their roles.

hopefully adding koch and perhaps a veteran starter to replace cal eldred in the "father figure" role while removing clayton, lofton, and alomar from the mix will fix our chemistry problem some.

bc2k
12-04-2002, 07:51 PM
The lack of leadership is why KW has to conduct spring training as a drill sergeant. Thank you Frank Thomas.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-04-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
The lack of leadership is why KW has to conduct spring training as a drill sergeant. Thank you Frank Thomas.

Whyd does Frank Thomas have to be the leader? Just curious.

RichH55
12-04-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Whyd does Frank Thomas have to be the leader? Just curious.

Because its a bc2k post and therefore everything is somehow Frank Thomas's fault.....bc2k--> Did Frank Thomas like hit you with a bat or something? I don't think I have that sort of animosity towards anyone, and I'm pretty much full of rage...what gives?

bc2k
12-04-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Whyd does Frank Thomas have to be the leader? Just curious.

I think we both agree with Foulke that a leader was needed. Since the Sox were short on 2002 leaders, it is my belief that the veterans -- especially those with much tenure on a specific team -- are the men that must lead the team by setting rules and disiplining his teammates. Sort of like checks and balances.

When the expected leader doesn't carry out the leadership role, the government can experince chaos and collapse. For instance, Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, and even David Wells calling out Thomas. Carlos was arguing in the dugout with Thomas during the middle of a game. Perhaps if Thomas didn't hide from his duty, his teammates would respect him more. Perhaps if Thomas clearly defined his role as leader, his teammates would learn their place in the pecking order, not slam Frank to the press, and not cause a divided clubhouse. Perhaps if Thomas was more Salmon-like, the Sox would be more Angel-like.

It has been said that Thomas's personality isn't congruent with a leadership role. But there is no excuse why he can't be an on-field leader. He could lead by making productive use of his outs by advancing runners allowing All-Star's Magglio Ordonez and Paul Konerko a better chance of scoring that runner(s). He can lead by showing an interest in his teammates by not leaving the dugout during the game. He could lead by protecting his teammates during on field brawls unlike in 2000 vs. Detroit where he chose to eat sunflower seeds while Foulke and Parque get whaled on. He can also lead by running out every play (which he already does) and sliding into homeplate. Basically, I don't buy the excuse that his personality doesn't allow him to be a leader. There are many other ways he can lead the White Sox without using his mouth.

I understand that many do not share my belief that veterans are required to be leaders and that there is not a correct answer written in stone. I also understand the belief that veterans are no more obligated to lead a team than any other teammate. But if you want to add to that point, I'll be happy to read it.

Originally posted by RichH55


Because its a bc2k post and therefore everything is somehow Frank Thomas's fault.....bc2k--> Did Frank Thomas like hit you with a bat or something? I don't think I have that sort of animosity towards anyone, and I'm pretty much full of rage...what gives?

First off, I believe Frank Thomas is a victum of his own success. I have come to expect a higher standard of play from Frank. My beef with Frank starts from not meeting the standards I expect from every player that puts on a Chicago White Sox uniform. If Frank respected the game I would not post many negatives about Frank. If he was just a great ballplayer that struggled through a couple of tough years, I would probably feel compassion towards him. I start to sour on Frank when he brings all his baggage to the ballpark. Sitting in the dugout in April 2000 while his teammates fought is my biggest disappointment I have with him. Frank has a poor attitude and I have no tolerance for that. This also explains why I like Paul Konerko so much. Konerko is a baseball player, a teammate, a winner.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-04-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I think we both agree with Foulke that a leader was needed. Since the Sox were short on 2002 leaders, it is my belief that the veterans -- especially those with much tenure on a specific team -- are the men that must lead the team by setting rules and disiplining his teammates. Sort of like checks and balances....


Ideally, the veterans fill the leadership role. The same holds true for the top-performers on the team. Veterans and top-performers are only ideal for one simple reason: you can expect they'll be around for a long time.

However, I don't see leadership as a skill that either veterans or top-performers necessarily possess. I think leadership is a totally separate skill.

If Foulke is right and the team lacks a leader, then I guess losing Cal Eldred and James Baldwin hurt more than any of us ever knew. Foulke is saying those two were the leaders of the '00 Sox. That's not an indictment of Frank Thomas. The team won 95 games with him doing nothing more than being a League MVP candidate, a top-performer, and a veteran.

If the Sox need a leader today, I would say we're far better off finding that leader someplace besides Frank Thomas. We have plenty of precedent to suggest the team does best when someone else takes the lead.

voodoochile
12-04-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Ideally, the veterans fill the leadership role. The same holds true for the top-performers on the team. Veterans and top-performers are only ideal for one simple reason: you can expect they'll be around for a long time.

However, I don't see leadership as a skill that either veterans or a top-performers necessarily possess. I think leadership is a totally separate skill.

If Foulke is right and the team lacks a leader, then I guess losing Cal Eldred and James Baldwin hurt more than any of us ever knew. Foulke is saying those two were the leaders of the '00 Sox. That's not an indictment of Frank Thomas. The team won 95 games with him doing nothing more than being a League MVP candidate, a top-performer, and a veteran.

If the Sox need a leader today, I would say we're far better off finding that leader someplace besides Frank Thomas. We have plenty of precedent to suggest the team does best when someone else takes the lead.

As I recall, Frank did play a leadership role on that team, trying to keep the young guys on an even keel when they all wanted to jump and down after the beautiful stretch against NY and Cleveland in June. Still, it has never been his thing and what he was able to do that year wouldn't be necessary with an older club like we have now.

Not surprised he didn't take a leadership role last year - and we should all be grateful that he didn't given his public problems with the press, fellow teammates, very public benchings and his constant struggles with the bat. Frank should have spent last season concentrating on Frank so he could theoretically return to form in coming years. Unfortunately he was unable to keep to himself last year for a variety of reasons.

Frank should be Frank and if that means he isn't the most vocal guy in the clubhouse, so be it. You can't make a fish fly or a hummingbird swim. Why would we want Frank to do something he clearly isn't comfortable with and risk messing with his head. He should be allowed to concentrate on doing what he has done as well as anyone in Sox history - swing the bat. If he does that on a par with his career averages, it won't matter whether he pats guys on the rump, gets in their face or leads the team out of the dugout when they play in NL ballparks. Just being Frank will be enough...