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Paulwny
12-04-2002, 11:53 AM
From the Baltimore Sun :

In other Orioles news:
The team's interest in free-agent slugger Frank Thomas seems to have cooled.

Orioles officials spoke with Thomas' agent, Arn Tellem, this week and were told it would take a lot to get him to leave the Chicago White Sox.

Under a unique clause in his contract - the "diminishing-skills clause" - Thomas has until Saturday to explore the free-agent waters or return to the White Sox with a large portion of his salary deferred. He has four years and $40 million remaining on that deal, and it would take a similar offer to get him to leave.

34 Inch Stick
12-04-2002, 12:13 PM
Thomas is a guy who has always based his self worth on the amount of money he is making. If he is coming back at 5 mil (and it looks like he will) are we going to get the sulking lazy frank or the one that has been working hard this winter.

hold2dibber
12-04-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Thomas is a guy who has always based his self worth on the amount of money he is making. If he is coming back at 5 mil (and it looks like he will) are we going to get the sulking lazy frank or the one that has been working hard this winter.

Actually, I think Frank looks at his stats more than his paycheck to evaluate himself (pure speculation here). I think he is very motivated to prove that he's still an elite hitter after struggling for much of last season.

voodoochile
12-04-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Thomas is a guy who has always based his self worth on the amount of money he is making. If he is coming back at 5 mil (and it looks like he will) are we going to get the sulking lazy frank or the one that has been working hard this winter.

Frank is and has always been a stats hog. His ego makes it hard for him to sit on his ass while someone else plays. I don't imagine he enjoyed not playing during Interleague ball last summer. Hopefully he has taken this as a challange and will continue to work out. I know he craves being among the league leaders. Time will tell if he can regain his form.

I am curious if the Sox are trying to negotiate a lower contract and if he refuses, if they will go further toward cutting his salary than they have admited so far. The Sox under KW have been very petty when it comes to perceived slights. Maybe a renegotiated contract will pave the way for a trade also. I don't want one, but I would not be surprised...

RichH55
12-04-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Frank is and has always been a stats hog. His ego makes it hard for him to sit on his ass while someone else plays. I don't imagine he enjoyed not playing during Interleague ball last summer. Hopefully he has taken this as a challange and will continue to work out. I know he craves being among the league leaders. Time will tell if he can regain his form.

I am curious if the Sox are trying to negotiate a lower contract and if he refuses, if they will go further toward cutting his salary than they have admited so far. The Sox under KW have been very petty when it comes to perceived slights. Maybe a renegotiated contract will pave the way for a trade also. I don't want one, but I would not be surprised...


Isn't a good thing when a guy wants to put up good numbers and wants to play? You seemed to spin that quite negatively, but I think the reality is most guys want to put up big numbers(be it ego or whatever) and play...its common sense...does his quest for numbers hurt the team? I doubt it....occasionally wanting numbers, like IROD and his need to have a high percentage of thrown out runners, can hurt a team, but I fail to see how that would work with Frank

RKMeibalane
12-04-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Isn't a good thing when a guy wants to put up good numbers and wants to play? You seemed to spin that quite negatively, but I think the reality is most guys want to put up big numbers(be it ego or whatever) and play...its common sense...does his quest for numbers hurt the team? I doubt it....occasionally wanting numbers, like IROD and his need to have a high percentage of thrown out runners, can hurt a team, but I fail to see how that would work with Frank

I think the reason some people criticize Frank is because of what he has done in the past. There have been times when he has focused on things such as how many points he needs to add to his batting average or how many homeruns he should hit, so he comes to the plate looking to pad his numbers instead of just moving the runner along. I think that's what voodoochile was getting at.

Dadawg_77
12-04-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
so he comes to the plate looking to pad his numbers instead of just moving the runner along.

Anytime Frank or any of your major hitters comes to the plate he should not be thinking about move the runners over just one base but two or more, unless the guy is at third and it is late in the game. As much as I like small ball it makes no sense and only ends up hurting your team to have Frank or hitter of his like (at least at his prime) take an out just to move a runner to second or third base.

RichH55
12-04-2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Anytime Frank or any of your major hitters comes to the plate he should not be thinking about move the runners over just one base but two or more, unless the guy is at third and it is late in the game. As much as I like small ball it makes no sense and only ends up hurting your team to have Frank or hitter of his like (at least at his prime) take an out just to move a runner to second or third base.


I couldnt have said it better....you want to critisize your cleanup hitter for thinking like a cleanup hitter? I dont think Ive ever seen Frank bunt either...is that a problem? I doubt it

RichH55
12-04-2002, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I think the reason some people criticize Frank is because of what he has done in the past. There have been times when he has focused on things such as how many points he needs to add to his batting average or how many homeruns he should hit, so he comes to the plate looking to pad his numbers instead of just moving the runner along. I think that's what voodoochile was getting at.


See DaDawg's post as well..... but its not like Frank doesnt walk...he might strike out at a decent rate, but at least the pitches he are swinging at tend to be good pitches and when you can hit the ball like Frank, there is usually a reason you are trying for the big inning

Iwritecode
12-04-2002, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
See DaDawg's post as well..... but its not like Frank doesnt walk...he might strike out at a decent rate, but at least the pitches he are swinging at tend to be good pitches and when you can hit the ball like Frank, there is usually a reason you are trying for the big inning

It's funny, we make the same exact comments about a superstar that plays on the other side of town. Rich makes a good point here though. At least if Frank goes up looking for a big hit, he doesn't swing and whiff at everything that comes close to him. Last year was the first time he has more than 100 K's in one season in how long? I think Sosa averages at least that...

voodoochile
12-04-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Isn't a good thing when a guy wants to put up good numbers and wants to play? You seemed to spin that quite negatively, but I think the reality is most guys want to put up big numbers(be it ego or whatever) and play...its common sense...does his quest for numbers hurt the team? I doubt it....occasionally wanting numbers, like IROD and his need to have a high percentage of thrown out runners, can hurt a team, but I fail to see how that would work with Frank

Yes, Frank putting up good numbers is good for the Sox, period. I don't see why you read negativity in my post though. I was replying to a comment earlier in the thread which wondered if Frank would continue to work out as strongly if he didn't have as large a monetary incentive to do so. Based on his drive to be an elite hitter statistically one would expect him to continue to work out hard so as to improve on his numbers from last year and so as to be allowed to play during NL ballpark trips.

RichH55
12-04-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yes, Frank putting up good numbers is good for the Sox, period. I don't see why you read negativity in my post though. I was replying to a comment earlier in the thread which wondered if Frank would continue to work out as strongly if he didn't have as large a monetary incentive to do so. Based on his drive to be an elite hitter statistically one would expect him to continue to work out hard so as to improve on his numbers from last year and so as to be allowed to play during NL ballpark trips.


Ok....no problems here then.....I guess its just on how we word things....it all comes down to arguing semantics.....

RKMeibalane
12-04-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I couldnt have said it better....you want to critisize your cleanup hitter for thinking like a cleanup hitter? I dont think Ive ever seen Frank bunt either...is that a problem? I doubt it

I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't criticizing Frank for looking to drive in runs or use his bat. I was giving an example of some of things people have used against him when they criticize him. I don't have a problem with his approach at the plate at all.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-04-2002, 07:58 PM
If being a stats hog means putting up Ted Williams-like numbers for eight consecutive years, I suggest putting nine of them in our lineup.

Dadawg_77
12-05-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't criticizing Frank for looking to drive in runs or use his bat. I was giving an example of some of things people have used against him when they criticize him. I don't have a problem with his approach at the plate at all.

I probably did but I just hate that argument the Frank just wants to pad his numbers. Honestly, I think people who make that argument just don't understand baseball behind it. I could put the math to prove it, but really don't have the time for it.

I really don't have a problem with Sosa going up there and trying to kill the ball in key situations with a OPS last year of .993. But if he took more pitches and struck out less, he would create more runs. One he would see better pitches if he chased less and two he would get on base more which would give the guys behind him a greater chance to drive in runs. But Sosa should never bunt, and never give up an out to advance a runner unless a a runner is at third.

StepsInSC
12-05-2002, 08:18 PM
Frank may strike out a decent rate? Last season was the first he's had more than 100 K's since '91. I may be mistaken but thats a lot less than most isn't it? Especially in the Russell Branyon/Jim Thome/Jose Hernandez era.

RichH55
12-06-2002, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Frank may strike out a decent rate? Last season was the first he's had more than 100 K's since '91. I may be mistaken but thats a lot less than most isn't it? Especially in the Russell Branyon/Jim Thome/Jose Hernandez era.

True...but he isnt Tony Gwynn out there either.....I pointed out the walk rate more than compensates for that anyway

WinningUgly!
12-06-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
At least if Frank goes up looking for a big hit, he doesn't swing and whiff at everything that comes close to him. Last year was the first time he has more than 100 K's in one season in how long? I think Sosa averages at least that...

Sosa averages 158 strikeouts a season, over his career. :D: