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34 Inch Stick
12-04-2002, 11:04 AM
I feel the same way I did the day after the Ritchie deal. We did get a quality, proven commodity in this deal. We also gave up quality in the same area that we needed improvement.

Above the shifting of talent (rather than increasing of it) we gave up too much. I don't care it you think MJ sucks and Valentine will not make the majors, Foulke and cash should have been more than enough to get this deal done. We could have had Lidle for MJ several weeks ago (obviously the A's really did want MJ). If the deal had been Koch and Lidle for Foulke, MJ, Valentine and cash, I would have said KW did a great job.

I don't think that Kenny is focused enough on winning each trade that he makes. Instead, he identifies a player that he wants, locks onto him, and is willing to give up whatever amount it will take to get him. Good GM's do not do this. Every player has value (If Royce willingly played the role of utility infielder/late inning defensive replacement at 500,000 a year we would be in love with him). Conversely any player that is overvalued hurts the team (As good as A-Rod is I think the Rangers would be happier with several starting pitchers). Kenny does not realize this and therefore should not be in the position he is in. He should be a talent evaluater (head of minor league system) not a value evaluater (GM).

In conclusion, I do not hate this trade. I think Koch will be fine. I just feel that we lost another trade (even the Marte trade, was giving up too much for a guy who, by all reports, was going to be cut). It saps my enthusiasm to know that we will always overpay. Where are the consultants that were hired to help Kenny learn how to perform the functions of a GM beyond talent evaluation!

duke of dorwood
12-04-2002, 11:10 AM
:reinsy

How can we afford consultants when you people dont buy tickets?

34 Inch Stick
12-04-2002, 11:33 AM
I know you are joking, but the consultants were hired at the time Kenny was made GM (I know I have seen Roland Hemond's shriveled behind shuffling around Commiskey). Someone please help Kenny with this move.

I remember thinking that the token hiring of Kenny would not negatively impact the organization because of his respected support system (much like what they are saying in Boston). I was wrong. He seems to take no counsel from anyone other than his small group of confidants who because of their age and professional backround offer no different perspective than Kenny's.

ChiSoxBobette
12-04-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
I feel the same way I did the day after the Ritchie deal. We did get a quality, proven commodity in this deal. We also gave up quality in the same area that we needed improvement.

Above the shifting of talent (rather than increasing of it) we gave up too much. I don't care it you think MJ sucks and Valentine will not make the majors, Foulke and cash should have been more than enough to get this deal done. We could have had Lidle for MJ several weeks ago (obviously the A's really did want MJ). If the deal had been Koch and Lidle for Foulke, MJ, Valentine and cash, I would have said KW did a great job.

I don't think that Kenny is focused enough on winning each trade that he makes. Instead, he identifies a player that he wants, locks onto him, and is willing to give up whatever amount it will take to get him. Good GM's do not do this. Every player has value (If Royce willingly played the role of utility infielder/late inning defensive replacement at 500,000 a year we would be in love with him). Conversely any player that is overvalued hurts the team (As good as A-Rod is I think the Rangers would be happier with several starting pitchers). Kenny does not realize this and therefore should not be in the position he is in. He should be a talent evaluater (head of minor league system) not a value evaluater (GM).

In conclusion, I do not hate this trade. I think Koch will be fine. I just feel that we lost another trade (even the Marte trade, was giving up too much for a guy who, by all reports, was going to be cut). It saps my enthusiasm to know that we will always overpay. Where are the consultants that were hired to help Kenny learn how to perform the functions of a GM beyond talent evaluation!
I don't know about you guys, heres a relief pitcher who was 11-4 with 44 saves led all major league relievers in victories led A.L. relievers in strikeouts & was the Rolaids Relief Man winner opponents batted .214 against him as opposed to Foukle who opponents batted 2.90 against. but we think we gave up to much a catcher who never hit the ball let alone throw someone out and an unproven AA pitcher who might turn into something. It never seems to be enough with you guys. I don't agree with J.R. or Williams but come on , what would have happened if the flubs grabbed this guy for the same type of players the tribune would have called it a great trade flubbies get Rolaid Relief Man of the year world series here we come. We get him for Keith Foulke who last year everyone groaned about when he entered a game, Mark Johnson who would have had problems throwing out some of the children who got to run the bases after some of the games last year let alone hit a baseball & Joe Valentine who might turn into a quality major league pitcher but who has only pitched at the AA level. We as White Sox fans seem to always look at the negative It Never Seems To Be Enough. Lets give Koch a chance.
GO WHITE SOX

Zednem700
12-04-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
I don't know about you guys, heres a relief pitcher who was 11-4 with 44 saves led all major league relievers in victories led A.L. relievers in strikeouts & was the Rolaids Relief Man winner opponents batted .214 against him as opposed to Foukle who opponents batted 2.90 against. but we think we gave up to much a catcher who never hit the ball let alone throw someone out and an unproven AA pitcher who might turn into something. It never seems to be enough with you guys. I don't agree with J.R. or Williams but come on , what would have happened if the flubs grabbed this guy for the same type of players the tribune would have called it a great trade flubbies get Rolaid Relief Man of the year world series here we come. We get him for Keith Foulke who last year everyone groaned about when he entered a game, Mark Johnson who would have had problems throwing out some of the children who got to run the bases after some of the games last year let alone hit a baseball & Joe Valentine who might turn into a quality major league pitcher but who has only pitched at the AA level. We as White Sox fans seem to always look at the negative It Never Seems To Be Enough. Lets give Koch a chance.
GO WHITE SOX


Oh come on. Foulke walked fewer guys, struck out guys only a little less, and was definitely one of the top 3 relievers in baseball over the last few years. He has consistently given up fewer runs than Koch, and Koch is known to have control problems. Koch is younger, throws harder, and will be slightly cheaper this year. Of course that cost saving is washed away when you realize that we're paying part of Keith's salary nex year. You complain about MJ's arm, but scouts consider him a solid defensive player, and he threw out a higher percentage of baserunners than the other Sox catchers (not counting Olivo who throughout the only guy who ran on him). This is almost certainly not a good trade for the Sox, depending on the minor leaguers it will probably be close to even with a slight edge to the A's just because of Keith alone. If they convert Keith to a starter and he pulls a Derek Lowe, than this is a horrible trade for the Sox.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2002, 01:29 PM
This and That:

I'm not sure what to make of this trade. I tend to think the Sox gave up to much and that it hasn't focused on their real, clear need...STARTING PITCHING, but I could be wrong.

The comment was made that Sox fans never seem to have enough, they always look at the negative.

That reminds me of something Paul Sullivan told me today (and there is some truth in his comment)

He told me rgeradless of who the Sox trade with, or who the Sox get, Sox fans will ALWAYS hate the trade because they don't like the guy making the deal and they don't like the guy who hired the guy who's making the deal.

Sully along with some other media folks I contacted yesterday and today, all LOVE the deal. They think the Sox came out ahead at a minimum because (and I'm paraphrasing here) the Sox got rid of a whiner and a bitcher in Foulke. The writers apparently got tired of him bitching every other day about starting and about how he felt he was getting screwed over.

I don't know if that's true or not but it could make for an even tenser clubhouse.

The impression that I've gotten from some media contacts is that Koch only cares about winning. He could care less about the number of saves, wins, innings pitched that he personally gets.

That attitude reminds me of "Black" Jack McDowell and you can never have enough of those guys.

Lip

34 Inch Stick
12-04-2002, 01:35 PM
Bob you missed my point. I admit that Koch is a quality reliever. He may blow a few next year but will probably be very good next year. However, the trade is bad because of the amount that we gave up. Say MJ sucks, but a respected GM was willing to give Lidle for him. I think if you saw Koch for Foulke and money we would all think this was a good trade.

By the way, Foulke had one bad half of one year. Koch has had several average years in his career including 2001.

pudge
12-04-2002, 01:36 PM
I agree with the first post in that KW seems to "lock" onto a guy and try to get him no matter the cost... that is unsettling... but this trade is nowhere near the Ritchie trade. And even that trade, when you think about it, isn't such a big deal now... the Sox have so many young arms in their system doing well, remember you can't keep EVERYONE. If we keep Wells and Fogg, maybe we loose one of these studs in A or AA who have been tearing up the winter leagues and fall league. You just never know... also, keep in mind we got two minor leaguers in the Koch deal, and according to Rogers in the Tribune, at least one of them is a top prospect, a left-handed starter.

At any rate, I still don't know why we weren't able to get Lidle, I think we should have gotten him for Durham last season, but KW obviously got played like a fiddle.

RichH55
12-04-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This and That:

I'm not sure what to make of this trade. I tend to think the Sox gave up to much and that it hasn't focused on their real, clear need...STARTING PITCHING, but I could be wrong.

The comment was made that Sox fans never seem to have enough, they always look at the negative.

That reminds me of something Paul Sullivan told me today (and there is some truth in his comment)

He told me rgeradless of who the Sox trade with, or who the Sox get, Sox fans will ALWAYS hate the trade because they don't like the guy making the deal and they don't like the guy who hired the guy who's making the deal.

Sully along with some other media folks I contacted yesterday and today, all LOVE the deal. They think the Sox came out ahead at a minimum because (and I'm paraphrasing here) the Sox got rid of a whiner and a bitcher in Foulke. The writers apparently got tired of him bitching every other day about starting and about how he felt he was getting screwed over.

I don't know if that's true or not but it could make for an even tenser clubhouse.

The impression that I've gotten from some media contacts is that Koch only cares about winning. He could care less about the number of saves, wins, innings pitched that he personally gets.

That attitude reminds me of "Black" Jack McDowell and you can never have enough of those guys.

Lip


Well damn Lip....that was downright positive! So I'm guessing the ETA on Koch blowing out his shoulder is next Thursday:) No good deed goes unpunished after all

Lip Man 1
12-04-2002, 02:04 PM
Rich:

When you have an organization as vindictivive, egotistic, malicious, petty and stupid as the Sox' you're right... no good deed goes unpunished.

All you have to do is look at the Sox record over the past 22 years to end all debate.

Lip

Procol Harum
12-04-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rich:

When you have an organization as vindictivive, egotistic, malicious, petty and stupid as the Sox' you're right... no good deed goes unpunished.

All you have to do is look at the Sox record over the past 22 years to end all debate.

Lip

Couldn't have said it better my ownself.

As far as the trade itself went, I tend to think that on the face of it the Sox came out ahead in terms of trading Foulke for Koch, and in losing Mark Johnson--well, we didn't lose anything. I do wonder however, if anyone else other than Lenny would have managed to get that deal w/o having to surrender as much moolah and Valentine.

Dadawg_77
12-04-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This and That:

I'm not sure what to make of this trade. I tend to think the Sox gave up to much and that it hasn't focused on their real, clear need...STARTING PITCHING, but I could be wrong.

The comment was made that Sox fans never seem to have enough, they always look at the negative.

That reminds me of something Paul Sullivan told me today (and there is some truth in his comment)

He told me rgeradless of who the Sox trade with, or who the Sox get, Sox fans will ALWAYS hate the trade because they don't like the guy making the deal and they don't like the guy who hired the guy who's making the deal.

Sully along with some other media folks I contacted yesterday and today, all LOVE the deal. They think the Sox came out ahead at a minimum because (and I'm paraphrasing here) the Sox got rid of a whiner and a bitcher in Foulke. The writers apparently got tired of him bitching every other day about starting and about how he felt he was getting screwed over.

I don't know if that's true or not but it could make for an even tenser clubhouse.

The impression that I've gotten from some media contacts is that Koch only cares about winning. He could care less about the number of saves, wins, innings pitched that he personally gets.

That attitude reminds me of "Black" Jack McDowell and you can never have enough of those guys.

Lip

I admitt I hate Kenny Williams, and I hate this trade but I don't hate the trade because I hate Kenny. Rather I hate Kenny more because of he made the trade. Maybe Koch has the correct attitude but I would rather have the better player. There is a major difference between having the correct attitude and have talent. It is best when you have both like Black Jack who was one of the best pitchers in the league during his prime. While I don't think Billy Koch is one of the best closers in the game right now. To me the numbers, even if you factor in the AL West vs the AL Central, Foulke is a better pitcher then Billy Koch is. And IMHOP will be.

NewyorkSoxFan
12-04-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I agree with the first post in that KW seems to "lock" onto a guy and try to get him no matter the cost... that is unsettling... but this trade is nowhere near the Ritchie trade. And even that trade, when you think about it, isn't such a big deal now... the Sox have so many young arms in their system doing well, remember you can't keep EVERYONE. If we keep Wells and Fogg, maybe we loose one of these studs in A or AA who have been tearing up the winter leagues and fall league. You just never know... also, keep in mind we got two minor leaguers in the Koch deal, and according to Rogers in the Tribune, at least one of them is a top prospect, a left-handed starter.

At any rate, I still don't know why we weren't able to get Lidle, I think we should have gotten him for Durham last season, but KW obviously got played like a fiddle.


I agree with Bob when do we as fans ever feel we got enough? We are debating on getting corie Lidle, Please!! That is the trade that keeps us out of the playoffs, give me a break. MJ was a servicable catcher, but they are a dime a dozen. Are we going to lose sleep over him? And Valentine we don't know, we overvalue are talent anyway as many of you have pointed out over the years.

This guy is a very high quality closer, and to get something you have to give up something. If we know what are garbage is don't you think the other team knows that too? This was about money, and for once we got a good player who was being traded because they can't afford him. So let's all have a coke and a smile.


NYSF

Jerry_Manuel
12-04-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
They think the Sox came out ahead at a minimum because (and I'm paraphrasing here) the Sox got rid of a whiner and a bitcher in Foulke. The writers apparently got tired of him bitching every other day about starting and about how he felt he was getting screwed over.

That's exactly why I love this trade.

This situation seems so similiar to the Sean Lowe move. Both wanted to start and mentioned it often, both we're moved the following off-season.

bc2k
12-04-2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
We could have had Lidle for MJ several weeks ago (obviously the A's really did want MJ). If the deal had been Koch and Lidle for Foulke, MJ, Valentine and cash, I would have said KW did a great job.

I can't bring myself to blame KW for this or the Ritchie trade. I blame JR. If money was not a deterrent I believe Lidle would have been included in this trade and the Sox wouldn't have had to pay almost 2 million in cash to the A's since they were taking Lidle's salary off Oakland's payroll. I believe it was JR who didn't allow KW to include Lidle.

Another poster brought up the point that maybe after the Sox's failed attempts to aquire a starter failed, they looked to strengthen the bullpen. If it is true that they have exhausted their starter options, why not pick up a very attainable Lidle? Because either JR doesn't want to pay his salary or he and KW honestly believe that Ritchie is the better pitcher (and Ritchie is a less expensive option).

Although I'm disappointed the Sox didn't aquire that stud #2, I would take Lidle for Mark Johnson as a secondary plan. In 2000 we won with a group of solid starters and no true ace. I see no reason why we couldn't do the same in 2003 with a similar group of pitchers. (Although I consider Buehrle an ace). But who's to say that Ritchie won't out perform Lidle next season. Who's to say that Ritchie won't be as much, or more of a contributing piece as Lidle would have been. I have confidence in Ritchie and if he outperforms Lidle in 2003, JR and KW made the right decision on not trading for Lidle. We'll have to wait and see.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-04-2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
That's exactly why I love this trade.

This situation seems so similiar to the Sean Lowe move. Both wanted to start and mentioned it often, both we're moved the following off-season.

With one obvious difference. Foulke has real talent.

RichH55
12-05-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
With one obvious difference. Foulke has real talent.

Its always something isnt it:) THough IIRC Lowe was a 1st round pick at one point and was highly thought of...was that St Louis?