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Lip Man 1
12-03-2002, 10:54 PM
Phil Rogers weighs in with his take on the trade. His column is in Wednesday's Chicago Tribune (and NO this is NOT then entire column!):

Foulke and Johnson, traded to Oakland on Tuesday in the six-player deal for Koch, played key roles in the single worst baseball loss for a Chicago team since that grounder went through Leon Durham's legs in 1984. So, too, did departed general manager Ron Schueler.

It was Schueler who made the heartless decision to drop Johnson from the 2000 playoff roster. As much as anything, I blame Seattle's surprising sweep on that front-office overkill.

Because Paul was on the roster, Jerry Manuel used him to pinch run after Charles Johnson led off the bottom of the ninth with a single against Jose Paniagua. Paul wound up catching the 10th inning in a 4-4 game.

He started off Edgar Martinez with a ball and then Manuel ordered a pitchout. Cameron stood his ground at first as the count went to 2-0 and swiped second when Martinez swung through the next pitch. The next pitch sailed into the seats, as did the one after it. The back-to-back homers by Martinez and John Olerud were emotional killers.

Foulke was asked after the game if he had been surprised Manuel would have him throw a 1-0 pitchout to the highly respected Martinez, putting him in a hole.

"No," Foulke answered. "I'm not surprised by a whole lot anymore."

Would Johnson—either Johnson, for that matter—have helped Foulke find a way out of that 10th-inning trouble? It's impossible to say, but there's no question he would have been more comfortable than he was.

The Koch-Foulke trade runs the risk of being a zero-sum game. But in the short run it looks like a good move for the White Sox.

Don't forget that while Foulke has been putting up numbers against a schedule weighted heavily with AL Central patsies, Koch has faced a diet comprised largely of teams such as Seattle, Anaheim, Texas, the Yankees and Boston. His 44-for-50 showing in save situations last season came in baseball's toughest division.

Yet it doesn't ring true for general manager Ken Williams to say the trade was made because Koch, unlike Foulke, is three years away from free agency. Those will be three awfully expensive years.

The Sox have about $30 million committed to Ordonez, Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee and Thomas in 2003. That escalates into the $40 million range in '04, when Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland will be arbitration eligible. If Thomas comes back, it is likely to force Williams to deal one of his right-handed hitters, most likely Lee.

It's hard to understand why the White Sox suddenly would decide they need a closer as their cornerstone.

The feeling here is Jerry Reinsdorf sees an opportunity to challenge Minnesota and wants to go for it. Williams couldn't pull off a deal for a front-line starter so he switched to Plan B—a bullpen capable of dominating.

Joe Valentine, could develop into a future closer for Oakland. For whatever reason, outside evaluators always liked him more than the Sox did.

The Sox hope Valentine's loss will be offset by the yet-to-be-announced addition of former Illinois State left-hander Neal Cotts, His low-90s fastball reportedly comes with incredible movement. He struck out 178 in 1372/3 innings in high Class A.

RichH55
12-03-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Phil Rogers weighs in with his take on the trade. His column is in Wednesday's Chicago Tribune (and NO this is NOT then entire column!):

Foulke and Johnson, traded to Oakland on Tuesday in the six-player deal for Koch, played key roles in the single worst baseball loss for a Chicago team since that grounder went through Leon Durham's legs in 1984. So, too, did departed general manager Ron Schueler.

It was Schueler who made the heartless decision to drop Johnson from the 2000 playoff roster. As much as anything, I blame Seattle's surprising sweep on that front-office overkill.

Because Paul was on the roster, Jerry Manuel used him to pinch run after Charles Johnson led off the bottom of the ninth with a single against Jose Paniagua. Paul wound up catching the 10th inning in a 4-4 game.

He started off Edgar Martinez with a ball and then Manuel ordered a pitchout. Cameron stood his ground at first as the count went to 2-0 and swiped second when Martinez swung through the next pitch. The next pitch sailed into the seats, as did the one after it. The back-to-back homers by Martinez and John Olerud were emotional killers.

Foulke was asked after the game if he had been surprised Manuel would have him throw a 1-0 pitchout to the highly respected Martinez, putting him in a hole.

"No," Foulke answered. "I'm not surprised by a whole lot anymore."

Would Johnson—either Johnson, for that matter—have helped Foulke find a way out of that 10th-inning trouble? It's impossible to say, but there's no question he would have been more comfortable than he was.

The Koch-Foulke trade runs the risk of being a zero-sum game. But in the short run it looks like a good move for the White Sox.

Don't forget that while Foulke has been putting up numbers against a schedule weighted heavily with AL Central patsies, Koch has faced a diet comprised largely of teams such as Seattle, Anaheim, Texas, the Yankees and Boston. His 44-for-50 showing in save situations last season came in baseball's toughest division.

Yet it doesn't ring true for general manager Ken Williams to say the trade was made because Koch, unlike Foulke, is three years away from free agency. Those will be three awfully expensive years.

The Sox have about $30 million committed to Ordonez, Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee and Thomas in 2003. That escalates into the $40 million range in '04, when Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland will be arbitration eligible. If Thomas comes back, it is likely to force Williams to deal one of his right-handed hitters, most likely Lee.

It's hard to understand why the White Sox suddenly would decide they need a closer as their cornerstone.

The feeling here is Jerry Reinsdorf sees an opportunity to challenge Minnesota and wants to go for it. Williams couldn't pull off a deal for a front-line starter so he switched to Plan B—a bullpen capable of dominating.

Joe Valentine, could develop into a future closer for Oakland. For whatever reason, outside evaluators always liked him more than the Sox did.

The Sox hope Valentine's loss will be offset by the yet-to-be-announced addition of former Illinois State left-hander Neal Cotts, His low-90s fastball reportedly comes with incredible movement. He struck out 178 in 1372/3 innings in high Class A.


Very nice get Lip.....is Phil Rogers one of the baseball writers you respect? If so its nice to see him say JR thinks we have a shot and should go for it.....Jr..Moyer is still out there............

Tragg
12-03-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

The Sox hope Valentine's loss will be offset by the yet-to-be-announced addition of former Illinois State left-hander Neal Cotts, His low-90s fastball reportedly comes with incredible movement. He struck out 178 in 1372/3 innings in high Class A.

What exactly does that mean? Is he a player to be named later from the As? Is that another trade or a pick up of some sort?

Lip Man 1
12-03-2002, 11:26 PM
I respect Phil Rogers for his courtesy to me and by proxy WSI when he agreed to be interviewed. personally I like him because he is very good about continuing to communicate with me when I have a question or issue.

What I should have done was put the part about Reinsdorf in teal because I disagree with Phil. The Sox aren't going "for anything" but to try to drop down far enough to start getting revenue sharing money, which would make Uncle Jerry VERY happy.

I agree with his contention that Williams couldn't get a starter and had to look elsewhere. That's because Kenny is incompetent.

The Cubs got Clement and Alfonseca for Julian Tavaras. It CAN be done....we say the Cubs are stupid but if they can pull off a deal like that, what does that make the Sox?

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-03-2002, 11:28 PM
Tragg:

As part of the deal the Sox are getting two players to be named later.

Obviously they are NOT going to be front line MLB caliber.

Lip

RichH55
12-04-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I respect Phil Rogers for his courtesy to me and by proxy WSI when he agreed to be interviewed. personally I like him because he is very good about continuing to communicate with me when I have a question or issue.

What I should have done was put the part about Reinsdorf in teal because I disagree with Phil. The Sox aren't going "for anything" but to try to drop down far enough to start getting revenue sharing money, which would make Uncle Jerry VERY happy.

I agree with his contention that Williams couldn't get a starter and had to look elsewhere. That's because Kenny is incompetent.

The Cubs got Clement and Alfonseca for Julian Tavaras. It CAN be done....we say the Cubs are stupid but if they can pull off a deal like that, what does that make the Sox?

Lip

I agree we still need a starter...but the offseason is far from over...and that Bullpen should be pretty damn good

NewyorkSoxFan
12-04-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I agree we still need a starter...but the offseason is far from over...and that Bullpen should be pretty damn good


I agree Rich the offseason is far from over, and we need to see what other moves are made before we begin to evaluate the trade. I like the trade for one, I have never liked soft-toss closers, granted he did a nice job, but a changeup has to fool you, a good fastball can get blown by you even if you know its coming.

I know KW leaves alot to be desired with his moves, but we are so quick to rip him, at least he is trying to do something. He may suck but he's trying.

The #2 starter is the key, if he can pull something off with that we could be in business. It's not like the twins are the '27 Yankees.


NYSF

RichH55
12-04-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree Rich the offseason is far from over, and we need to see what other moves are made before we begin to evaluate the trade. I like the trade for one, I have never liked soft-toss closers, granted he did a nice job, but a changeup has to fool you, a good fastball can get blown by you even if you know its coming.

I know KW leaves alot to be desired with his moves, but we are so quick to rip him, at least he is trying to do something. He may suck but he's trying.

The #2 starter is the key, if he can pull something off with that we could be in business. It's not like the twins are the '27 Yankees.


NYSF

Good point about the Twins....I wonder how they will play without the Sword of Damacles that was contraction hanging over their heads......Alot easier to play 162 games hard when you have a common enemy, common purpose IMHO....and now contracts will play a part in their thought processes, so I expect a few game dropoff in the Twins this year

duke of dorwood
12-04-2002, 02:39 PM
Anyone that thinks that bum thats their closer will do that again is drinking the same Kool Aid KW drinks

RichH55
12-04-2002, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Anyone that thinks that bum thats their closer will do that again is drinking the same Kool Aid KW drinks

Which bum are we referring to here? Foulke? Koch? Valentine?

OfficerKarkovice
12-04-2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Which bum are we referring to here? Foulke? Koch? Valentine?

Eddie Guardado I believe...who by the way every time I hear that name I just envision him doing a Frog Splash off the top ropes. :smile:

jeremyb1
12-04-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Good point about the Twins....I wonder how they will play without the Sword of Damacles that was contraction hanging over their heads......Alot easier to play 162 games hard when you have a common enemy, common purpose IMHO....and now contracts will play a part in their thought processes, so I expect a few game dropoff in the Twins this year

the twins ourperformed their pathagorean record by 7 games last year which means they had more than their fair share of luck. that combined with the aforementioned reasons has me thinking they'll drop off by more than just a few games. i'm thinking at least 5 games unless they get a breakout season from lohse or santana.

RichH55
12-04-2002, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the twins ourperformed their pathagorean record by 7 games last year which means they had more than their fair share of luck. that combined with the aforementioned reasons has me thinking they'll drop off by more than just a few games. i'm thinking at least 5 games unless they get a breakout season from lohse or santana.


Always nice when math backs up one of your theories:)

PaleHoseGeorge
12-04-2002, 07:18 PM
Until the White Sox learn to beat the Twins with any regularity (and this includes games insides that godawful HumpDome), there is no reason to believe the Sox will win the division.

Daver
12-04-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Until the White Sox learn to beat the Twins with any regularity (and this includes games insides that godawful HumpDome), there is no reason to believe the Sox will win the division.

You forgot to mention the fact that they still project Aaron Rowand as the starting CFer,and the fact that they have 3/4 of a catcher on the forty man roster.

RichH55
12-04-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by daver
You forgot to mention the fact that they still project Aaron Rowand as the starting CFer,and the fact that they have 3/4 of a catcher on the forty man roster.

That Aaron Rowand thing is rather unnerving...if they have enough confidence in Olivo to start, maybe they have the same faith in LTP?

Dadawg_77
12-05-2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Eddie Guardado I believe...who by the way every time I hear that name I just envision him doing a Frog Splash off the top ropes. :smile:

Latino Heat coming out of the pen.