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ChiSoxBobette
12-03-2002, 04:45 PM
last year all I heard was supposed White Sox fans groaning everytime Keith Foulke entered a game, now that they've traded him for a youger harder throwing closer Billy Koch Foulke is once again a White Sox favorite & Koch is a bum that the A's dumped on us. I've come to the conclusion that everyone that comes onto this site is a whiner , all of you just want to rip on the White Sox, Reinsdorf, & Williams. Billy Koch was 11-4 with 44 saves as opposed to Keith Foulke who the league in all probability had caught up with his 2 pitches, but of course I'm not a regular on this site so I guess I'll be ripped for thinking this was a good trade.I think you're all still hoping Bill Veck comes back from the dead.

Go White Sox

FanOf14
12-03-2002, 04:46 PM
How can we judge the trade when we have no clue who we are getting besides Koch? With all the money and who we sent, we better get something out of those 2 minor leaguers...

kermittheefrog
12-03-2002, 04:49 PM
That's pretty bad thinking. If you visit this site regularly and pay attention to the posts you'll see that each of us has our own ideas about the Sox and most are consistent about it. I have always been a Foulke fan and I'm pissed he's gone. RPS is an example of a guy who wasn't a Foulke fan and he's not dissapointed Foulke is gone. It's foolish to attach one general sentiment to everyone. I think the only thing we can agree on is that JR and K-Willy aren't taking us anywhere.

HawkDJ
12-03-2002, 04:49 PM
Yeah it is kind of ironic now that you think about it.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
last year all I heard was supposed White Sox fans groaning everytime Keith Foulke entered a game, now that they've traded him for a youger harder throwing closer Billy Koch Foulke is once again a White Sox favorite & Koch is a bum that the A's dumped on us. I've come to the conclusion that everyone that comes onto this site is a whiner , all of you just want to rip on the White Sox, Reinsdorf, & Williams. Billy Koch was 11-4 with 44 saves as opposed to Keith Foulke who the league in all probability had caught up with his 2 pitches, but of course I'm not a regular on this site so I guess I'll be ripped for thinking this was a good trade.I think you're all still hoping Bill Veck comes back from the dead.

Go White Sox

I see your point, but have no idea if it is true. IIRC, there were a handful of people who were (very vocally) crying for Foulke's scalp last summer. There are now a handful of people who are defending the trade of Foulke. I don't know if they're the same people or not. And your suggestion that the league caught up with Foulke's 2 pitches seems obviously wrong in light of the fact that his post all-star break ERA was about 1.00.

kermittheefrog
12-03-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How can we judge the trade when we have no clue who we are getting besides Koch? With all the money and who we sent, we better get something out of those 2 minor leaguers...

Good thought, I said something similar but I'm not sure there is anything in the Oakland system that could make this deal worthwhile for us. Oakland's minor leagues aren't as strong as they were 3-5 years ago. They've gotten to good to get premium draft picks.

No-Neck
12-03-2002, 04:58 PM
Thanks ChiSoxBob, this site is the only place where no matter what happens, they'll rip on it and rip on you for not being on their cheerleading squad.

They're probably still in school to begin with, I haven't dealt with this mentality since my cafeteria days at Weber HS 35 years ago. Even back then it wasn't that bad.

I hope I'm wrong because young people should have much better tolerance to diverse opnions like we did 35 years ago.

I said Foulke sucked as a closer, just like I did all last year (he does) and immediately was called "clueless".

I'm still waiting for somebody from the "clueful" crowd to tell me how 11 saves in the AL Central id better than 44 saves in the AL West.

Rip away MEN

Daver
12-03-2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by No-Neck
Thanks ChiSoxBob, this site is the only place where no matter what happens, they'll rip on it and rip on you for not being on their cheerleading squad.

They're probably still in school to begin with, I haven't dealt with this mentality since my cafeteria days at Weber HS 35 years ago. Even back then it wasn't that bad.

I hope I'm wrong because young people should have much better tolerance to diverse opnions like we did 35 years ago.

I said Foulke sucked as a closer, just like I did all last year (he does) and immediately was called "clueless".

I'm still waiting for somebody from the "clueful" crowd to tell me how 11 saves in the AL Central id better than 44 saves in the AL West.

Rip away MEN

I have been rather vocal in my wishes to trade Foulke for two years,I am just a littled miffed that that KW waited till his value was at its lowest to trade him,instead of after 2000 when his value was at its highest.

FanOf14
12-03-2002, 05:03 PM
Nutz, I guess being a woman, I can't rip away. LOL! Anyways, overall the only complaint I have with No-Neck's and Bob's post are the generalizations. Give it a break. From what I have seen the opinions are somewhat diverse. What you two are seeing is the result of years and years of no post-season success.

kermittheefrog
12-03-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by No-Neck
I'm still waiting for somebody from the "clueful" crowd to tell me how 11 saves in the AL Central id better than 44 saves in the AL West.

Rip away MEN

I'm leaving this discussion to write a column explaining just that buddy.

No-Neck
12-03-2002, 05:05 PM
I guess the clueless will just have to wait to be enlightened.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2002, 05:07 PM
What a site? More like what a crock! For somebody who describes himself as not a regular, it sure didn't stop you from asserting one of the broadest generalities ever posted here.

I'm a huge of critic of Sox management, and can remember many heated arguments the past 12 months on these topics:

1. Royce Clayton being worthless,
2. Ray Durham using his head for nothing but a hat rack,
3. Jerry Manuel tinkering, tinkering, tinkering,
4. Kenny Williams being stupid for not giving Joe Crede a chance to play,
5. Aaron Rowand being waaaay overrated,
6. Scared to death when Josh Paul was called up from Charlotte,
7. Rob Gallas being clueless how to market the team,
8. Paul Konerko as an average firstbasemen among A.L. starters,
9. The lower deck at New Comiskey is the best in baseball,
and finally,
10. Jerry Reinsdorf must sell the ballclub if we're ever to see a South Side baseball championship.

There are plenty of Sox Fans at WSI willing to debate with me these points. As for debates regarding the utility of Keith Foulke, the one ballplayer from the White Flag trade I was genuinely impressed we got, you'll have to look elsewhere for a change in heart.

Talk about whiners...

MarkEdward
12-03-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by No-Neck
I guess the clueless will just have to wait to be enlightened.

Here's a start: saves aren't a good stat to judge a pitcher's value.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by No-Neck
Thanks ChiSoxBob, this site is the only place where no matter what happens, they'll rip on it and rip on you for not being on their cheerleading squad.

They're probably still in school to begin with, I haven't dealt with this mentality since my cafeteria days at Weber HS 35 years ago. Even back then it wasn't that bad.

I hope I'm wrong because young people should have much better tolerance to diverse opnions like we did 35 years ago.

I said Foulke sucked as a closer, just like I did all last year (he does) and immediately was called "clueless".

I'm still waiting for somebody from the "clueful" crowd to tell me how 11 saves in the AL Central id better than 44 saves in the AL West.

Rip away MEN

You were assailed not because of your opinion, but for your failure to back it up with anything other than "he only had 11 saves". That is, as has been pointed out elsewhere, a very limited and not particularly useful analysis. In a nutshell, he didn't get nearly enough save opportunities last year. Foulke has converted more saves than Koch over the last 3 years. Foulke's underlying numbers (e.g., WHIP, ERA, ERA+, etc., etc., etc.) are virtually all better than Koch's. I could go on and on. IIRC, you also have not addressed the catching situation or the loss of Valentine, either. On this site, you don't run into problems if you have a divergent view. This board is filled with people arguing over all kinds of things -- i.e., people expressing divergent views. However, people do run into problems when they express a view and are unable to back it up. That, IMHO, is one of the great things about this site. Instead of backing providing any decent argument in favor of this trade, you instead resort to insulting some posters because of their age. That seems more sophmoric and cafeteria-worthy than those who have picked apart your analysis based upon statistics. By the way, I'm 35.

By the way, does Weber HS still exist (as a proud North Side Sox Fan, I know a few people who went there in the '80s).

RedPinStripes
12-03-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
RPS is an example of a guy who wasn't a Foulke fan and he's not dissapointed Foulke is gone.

Got that right! :) I liked Keith personally, not that i knew him, but he seemed like a cool guy. I just notice a pattern that everone is onto him after 3 batters. There isnt too much to hide when they can see a pitcher hiding a change up behind his ear in the stretch when he has 2 pitches. Foulke says he has a slider, but that is a dead givaway when he throws it and it rarly goes over the plate. One thing he did have success in was making batter chase bad pitches. just my outrageous opinion.

Dadawg_77
12-03-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

By the way, does Weber HS still exist (as a proud North Side Sox Fan, I know a few people who went there in the '80s).

Weber closed about 11-7 years ago. I think it was closed while I was a Soph at St. Pats, but I am not sure.

Paulwny
12-03-2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by daver
I have been rather vocal in my wishes to trade Foulke for two years,I am just a littled miffed that that KW waited till his value was at its lowest to trade him,instead of after 2000 when his value was at its highest.

I'm one who wanted Foulke traded last year.
The question in my mind is, since Oakland is supposed to be cutting payroll, and this trade's a money wash, what does Beane know about Koch?
I don't like this trade, Beane is no dummy (KW).

Daver
12-03-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm one who wanted Foulke traded last year.
The question in my mind is, since Oakland is supposed to be cutting payroll, and this trade's a money wash, what does Beane know about Koch?
I don't like this trade, Beane is no dummy (KW).

I think it is more a case of who is Beane going to trade Foulke too,and for what.I wouldn't be surprised to see him packaged in a deal for a starter,a typical Billy Beane move.

Paulwny
12-03-2002, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by daver
I think it is more a case of who is Beane going to trade Foulke too,and for what.I wouldn't be surprised to see him packaged in a deal for a starter,a typical Billy Beane move.

You may be right. Beane is playing chess and is 3 moves ahead of all the other gm's.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
You may be right. Beane is playing chess and is 3 moves ahead of all the other gm's.

All the other gm's except KW - Beane is about 26 moves ahead of KW.

MarkEdward
12-03-2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by daver
I think it is more a case of who is Beane going to trade Foulke too,and for what.I wouldn't be surprised to see him packaged in a deal for a starter,a typical Billy Beane move.

I'm thinking he'll keep Foulke for the season, get a great year out of him, then let him walk and take the draft picks.

Daver, I understand that you don't want to see Keith Foulke start, but surely you're not suggesting that he was a bad reliever, right?

Daver
12-03-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I'm thinking he'll keep Foulke for the season, get a great year out of him, then let him walk and take the draft picks.

Daver, I understand that you don't want to see Keith Foulke start, but surely you're not suggesting that he was a bad reliever, right?

I have been saying this for two years,I have never changed my opinion,Foulke is a two pitch pitcher that relies on a gimmick pitch to get batters out,once the rest of the league catches up to him he is done.Last year the rest of the league caught up,and now KW trades him when his value is at it's lowest.

ode to veeck
12-03-2002, 07:20 PM
What you two are seeing is the result of years and years of no post-season success.

Hell, after the last two years, I'd be happy with some during season success :redneck:


I'm all for a repeat of '67 or '77 type years even if they don't make the playoffs.

duke of dorwood
12-03-2002, 07:25 PM
Foulke will do for a year til Valentine is ready. As Daver said, trading him now, at low value point is what is troubling. As a FA next year, his worth had declined too

MarkEdward
12-03-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
I have been saying this for two years,I have never changed my opinion,Foulke is a two pitch pitcher that relies on a gimmick pitch to get batters out,once the rest of the league catches up to him he is done.Last year the rest of the league caught up,and now KW trades him when his value is at it's lowest.

So you're saying these last five seasons have been flukes?

Daver
12-03-2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So you're saying these last five seasons have been flukes?

That is not what I am saying,you are putting words in my mouth,I said that once the league catches up with him he is done,and last season pretty much showed that.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So you're saying these last five seasons have been flukes?

I agree. I suppose the league "catches up" with everybody sooner or later. Even Steve Carlton was a bum by the time he retired. :smile:

Kenny will probably get Foulke back just in time for the league to catch up with him.

duke of dorwood
12-03-2002, 08:09 PM
I'm sure more games against Seattle isnt what Keith wants, but his less Metrodome activity will help. He'll be pitching in a tough division.

Jerry_Manuel
12-03-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
All the other gm's except KW - Beane is about 26 moves ahead of KW.

:reinsy
We can't even afford to buy the chess board! We could if you would come to the park.

bc2k
12-03-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Here's a start: saves aren't a good stat to judge a pitcher's value.

Perhaps Iím wrong here, but how can a closerís worth not be determined by saves and blown saves? This is a closer's only job. The greater number of saves with the lower number of blown saves, the better the closer. I donít see how any other stats are more important to a closer.

RKMeibalane
12-03-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
What a site? More like what a crock! For somebody who describes himself as not a regular, it sure didn't stop you from asserting one of the broadest generalities ever posted here.

I'm a huge of critic of Sox management, and can remember many heated arguments the past 12 months on these topics:

1. Royce Clayton being worthless,
2. Ray Durham using his head for nothing but a hat rack,
3. Jerry Manuel tinkering, tinkering, tinkering,
4. Kenny Williams being stupid for not giving Joe Crede a chance to play,
5. Aaron Rowand being waaaay overrated,
6. Scared to death when Josh Paul was called up from Charlotte,
7. Rob Gallas being clueless how to market the team,
8. Paul Konerko as an average firstbasemen among A.L. starters,
9. The lower deck at New Comiskey is the best in baseball,
and finally,
10. Jerry Reinsdorf must sell the ballclub if we're ever to see a South Side baseball championship.

There are plenty of Sox Fans at WSI willing to debate with me these points. As for debates regarding the utility of Keith Foulke, the one ballplayer from the White Flag trade I was genuinely impressed we got, you'll have to look elsewhere for a change in heart.

Talk about whiners...

PHG, you forgot several of the other arguments, such as the following:

1. Frank Thomas struggling during the first half of the season.
2. Royce Clayton living on his island.
3. Todd Ritchie imploding every five days.
4. Paul Konerko not holding his tongue.
5. Ken Williams being disruptive- the buffet table incident.
6. "Hawk" being an ass-kisser.
7. Reinsdorf needing to sell the team.
8. Darth Vader vs. Count Dooku- WAIT! That never happened!

:D:

MarkEdward
12-03-2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Perhaps Iím wrong here, but how can a closerís worth not be determined by saves and blown saves? This is a closer's only job. The greater number of saves with the lower number of blown saves, the better the closer. I donít see how any other stats are more important to a closer.

Well, anyone can come in and get three outs. A closer's job is just like any other pitcher's job: to get outs and prevents runs. My point is that there are better tools to judge a relief pitcher's performance. So just because Foulke had less opportunities to get saves makes him a worse pitcher than Koch?

Who's the better pitcher?
Pitcher A: 50 saves, 5.12 ERA
Pitcher B: 30 saves, 3.00 ERA

Sorry, these ideas are kind of jumbled.

voodoochile
12-03-2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by daver
I have been saying this for two years,I have never changed my opinion,Foulke is a two pitch pitcher that relies on a gimmick pitch to get batters out,once the rest of the league catches up to him he is done.Last year the rest of the league caught up,and now KW trades him when his value is at it's lowest.

If that is the case than getting Koch for Foulke, MJ (who doesn't really matter from a Sox perspective - he's a throw in) and Valentine (who may or may not ever pitch in the bigs) isn't that bad of a trade.

Vsahajpal
12-03-2002, 10:58 PM
But Koch is a one pitch pitcher :)

Dan H
12-04-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
last year all I heard was supposed White Sox fans groaning everytime Keith Foulke entered a game, now that they've traded him for a youger harder throwing closer Billy Koch Foulke is once again a White Sox favorite & Koch is a bum that the A's dumped on us. I've come to the conclusion that everyone that comes onto this site is a whiner , all of you just want to rip on the White Sox, Reinsdorf, & Williams. Billy Koch was 11-4 with 44 saves as opposed to Keith Foulke who the league in all probability had caught up with his 2 pitches, but of course I'm not a regular on this site so I guess I'll be ripped for thinking this was a good trade.I think you're all still hoping Bill Veck comes back from the dead.

Go White Sox

I won't rip you for thinking this is a good trade, but we Sox fans are a skeptical lot. Unlike Cub fans, we don't think there is a World Series behind every two game winning streak. The debate on this site regarding this trade has been a good one. And we wouldn't rip the Sox, Reinsdorf and Williams if they produced a truly contending ballclub. As far as Bill Veeck went, he had many faults, but he knew how to relate to Sox fans. That is something Jerry Reinsodorf has never been able to do.

Dadawg_77
12-04-2002, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
But Koch is a one pitch pitcher :)

A nice straight, but very fast, fastball.
:gascan

RKMeibalane
12-04-2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
As far as Bill Veeck went, he had many faults, but he knew how to relate to Sox fans. That is something Jerry Reinsodorf has never been able to do.

Indeed.

Blueprint1
12-04-2002, 01:57 PM
What did the A's get out of the McGwire trade anyway? I figure it must have been alot since Beane never makes a bad trade right. Come on I hate Williams but this looks like an even trade to me.

No-Neck
12-04-2002, 02:08 PM
Who did they get for Giambi (The Yankee one, Jason)?

kermittheefrog
12-04-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by No-Neck
Who did they get for Giambi (The Yankee one, Jason)?

Two compensation picks because Giambi left as a free agent rather than in a trade.

kermittheefrog
12-04-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
What did the A's get out of the McGwire trade anyway? I figure it must have been alot since Beane never makes a bad trade right. Come on I hate Williams but this looks like an even trade to me.

I'm not sure of this but I believe Beane wasn't yet the A's GM at the time.

Blueprint1
12-04-2002, 03:38 PM
you could be right but i thought he had taken the job at that time. What year did he ge hired the McGwire trade took place in 1997.

MarkEdward
12-04-2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
What did the A's get out of the McGwire trade anyway? I figure it must have been alot since Beane never makes a bad trade right. Come on I hate Williams but this looks like an even trade to me.

The A's got T.J. Mathews, Blake Stein, and Eric Ludwick for McGwire (source: Way More Sports).

SI1020
12-04-2002, 04:06 PM
I don't particularly like the trade right now but mention of Weber HS got me nostalgic for the Chicago of my youth. Some of the older guys in my neighborhood (Albany Park) went there. I remember coach Joe Sassano and his great city champ footballers of 1961 and 1964. Anyone remember Chico Kurzawski? Oh, on second thought I did like Foulke, think he will rebound nicely in the Bay area or whereever BBeane may send him. I don't care for this trade but don't think it will be as bad as the Ritchie fiasco. I hope Cooper can help Koch develop an off speed pitch to go with his heat so it can be lights out time in the 9th once again.

No-Neck
12-04-2002, 04:50 PM
SI1020

I was in the class of '77, from the Humboldt Park area, Weber closed its doors in 96 (?). By then the old school mentality was completely gone, and college prep all male schools were on their last legs. I played ball for the flies and soph team, but had to go work at 16 after school. The football team was pretty lousy at that point, it was too small of a student body to compete. They had only about 650+ students in the entire school in 77. It's very sad, because the educational level for that part of the city was superb. I was taking Pre-Calculus, Advanced Chemistry and Physics in my Senior year.

I think it was a good trade, I think Foulke needed a change if he is going to find his old form again. I don't think he would have reached that level again in a closer's role if he would have stayed in the Sox organization.

I agree with Cisoxbob about the level of negativety on this sight,
In my opinion, only Burhle, Maggs and Crede are untouchables, top calibre MLBers. Maybe Garland in the future. Everyone else is not. Yet reading some of these posts, you'd think that JR and KW (both of whom I can't stand) were dismantling a Dynasty. This team pretty much stunk last year (Foulke included) and will probably stink in 2003, even if they kept Foulke, and if they were in the AL West or East, would have easily lost 95 games last year.

SI1020
12-04-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by No-Neck
SI1020

I was in the class of '77, from the Humboldt Park area, Weber closed its doors in 96 (?). By then the old school mentality was completely gone, and college prep all male schools were on their last legs. I played ball for the flies and soph team, but had to go work at 16 after school. The football team was pretty lousy at that point, it was too small of a student body to compete. They had only about 650+ students in the entire school in 77. It's very sad, because the educational level for that part of the city was superb. I was taking Pre-Calculus, Advanced Chemistry and Physics in my Senior year.

I think it was a good trade, I think Foulke needed a change if he is going to find his old form again. I don't think he would have reached that level again in a closer's role if he would have stayed in the Sox organization.

I agree with Cisoxbob about the level of negativety on this sight,
In my opinion, only Burhle, Maggs and Crede are untouchables, top calibre MLBers. Maybe Garland in the future. Everyone else is not. Yet reading some of these posts, you'd think that JR and KW (both of whom I can't stand) were dismantling a Dynasty. This team pretty much stunk last year (Foulke included) and will probably stink in 2003, even if they kept Foulke, and if they were in the AL West or East, would have easily lost 95 games last year. Thanks for the update on Weber. As far as the negativity goes folks have just lost faith in JR and his lackey KW. Many of us want them gone yesterday. It was only two seasons ago when we seemed on the cusp of some really good times and now everything seems to be turning to s---. That being said, this trade might be OK although at the moment I'm not doing cartwheels.The first 40 games or so of next season are crucial IMO. If the young guys jell and Garland and Wright can compliment Buerhle then things may fall into place. If things start off crappy then I see the potential for a real attendance nose dive, all star game notwithstanding. Back to the negativity thing. Since I gave up political arguments I've tried to be the preverbial nice guy while still getting my points across. There are many interesting and knowledgeable posters here. A winning team next year would do wonders for everyone.