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balboner
12-03-2002, 12:44 PM
According to radio report, Joe Valentine is the PTBNL. Also, rumor is that KW will throw in some cash. This man clearly has no clue how to run a freaking organization.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by balboner
According to radio report, Joe Valentine is the PTBNL. Also, rumor is that KW will throw in some cash. This man clearly has no clue how to run a freaking organization.

Let me get this straight. Is the radio reporting (and if so, what station) that the Sox are dealing Foulke, MJ and Valentine for Billy friggin' Koch?

balboner
12-03-2002, 12:50 PM
The Score is reporting this trade, basically making it sound like a done deal. Maybe we should trade Marte for Jeff Fassero now??

voodoochile
12-03-2002, 12:52 PM
It's all about the money. With Frank due back, the Sox don't want to pay Foulke so much money, so they are dumping the salary...

cheeses_h_rice
12-03-2002, 12:59 PM
Somebody kill KW before he strikes again. The man is a menace to this organization's future.

Brian26
12-03-2002, 01:00 PM
I hate this trade. I think Foulke's upside was far better than Koch's. Terrible.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 01:17 PM
ESPN is reporting it as a done deal as well (we get Koch and two minor leaguers, they get Foulke, MJ, Valentine and, of course, cash).

KW strikes again (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1203/1470567.html)

jeremyb1
12-03-2002, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It's all about the money. With Frank due back, the Sox don't want to pay Foulke so much money, so they are dumping the salary...

koch is arbitration elligible coming off a 40+ save season and we're sending cash so we're not going to save any money in this deal. its not a salary dump from my standpoint. i want to try to be optimisitic but its really hard. the only positives i can think of is we'll have koch for two more years while we would've had foulke for only one and the deal will better define the bullpen roles where we were supposedly considering a closer by committee.

i just don't understand though. as everyone else has pointed out we gave up the better pitcher plus johnson and valentine. we did receieve two minor leaguers, maybe they'll be decent. however, after the aquisition of adkins, i'm thinking they'll be fringe prospects at best. i guess we did get olivo from the a's... i just can't believe kw thinks he's capable of dealing with beane without being embarassed time and time again.

Viva Magglio
12-03-2002, 01:22 PM
...that the deal of Foulke, Johnson, Valentine, and cash for Koch and two unknown Oakland minor leaguers is all but done.

Viva Magglio
12-03-2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by balboner
Maybe we should trade Marte for Jeff Fassero now??

:KW
Hey, balboner, that's a great idea!!!

Cheryl
12-03-2002, 01:28 PM
Wait a minute!Wasn't Keith Foulke the linchpin of the White Flag Trade?

voodoochile
12-03-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
koch is arbitration elligible coming off a 40+ save season and we're sending cash so we're not going to save any money in this deal. its not a salary dump from my standpoint. i want to try to be optimisitic but its really hard. the only positives i can think of is we'll have koch for two more years while we would've had foulke for only one and the deal will better define the bullpen roles where we were supposedly considering a closer by committee.

i just don't understand though. as everyone else has pointed out we gave up the better pitcher plus johnson and valentine. we did receieve two minor leaguers, maybe they'll be decent. however, after the aquisition of adkins, i'm thinking they'll be fringe prospects at best. i guess we did get olivo from the a's... i just can't believe kw thinks he's capable of dealing with beane without being embarassed time and time again.

I don't know if this solves our closer issue or not. Koch blew 6 saves last year and JM just might bench him if he has a couple in a row - like he did to Foulke. Maybe the Sox are expecting to sign Koch to a 3 yr deal for less than Foulke would have cost. With Foulke clearly returning to form at the end of last season, he could have had a good year and thus the Sox would have been forced to pay him even MORE money in 2004. Heck, as it is there is no way Koch gets a $6M contract for next year and thus they are one step closer to lowering payroll and further lining JR's pockets...

voodoochile
12-03-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
Wait a minute!Wasn't Keith Foulke the linchpin of the White Flag Trade?

No, that was Mike "slappy" Caruso...

Lip Man 1
12-03-2002, 01:31 PM
According to then GM Ron Schueler, the "keys" to the deal were Mike Caruso and Lorenzo Barcelo. Foulke was actually an "afterthought."

Lip

balboner
12-03-2002, 01:33 PM
After giving the trade some thought, this might not be the worst thing for the Sox:
- We were losing Foulke after this season anyways, might as well get a major league player for him
- Fow a pretty low budget team, why pay a middle reliever 6 mil?
- Mark Johnson frustrated me more than any player last year w/his inability to hit the ball out of the infield.
- Koch has some charisma the team has been lacking as of late
- W/him as closer, Marte can come in during the 7th, and set him up for the 8th
- Let's give this trade a chance. There were many people that liked the Ritchie trade, and hated the Marte one. You never know what will happen

CHISOXFAN13
12-03-2002, 01:36 PM
We have no idea how the other two minor leaguers will turn out, but I for one, am thrilled that Jonson will no longer be hitting .200 for this team.

Everyone on this board seems to get bent out of shape over the fact we included Valentine. Do you people want to win now or what?? We have a good amount of kids who will be coming to the show soon, as evidenced by the AFL, so getting rid of him isn't the worst thing.

Let's give this a chance.

My guess is everyone on here would criticize K Dub no matter what move is made.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
With Foulke clearly returning to form at the end of last season, he could have had a good year and thus the Sox would have been forced to pay him even MORE money in 2004. Heck, as it is there is no way Koch gets a $6M contract for next year and thus they are one step closer to lowering payroll and further lining JR's pockets...

Foulke can be a free agent after next season, so the Sox surely wouldn't have been forced to pay him more in '04. I think Koch is still a few years away from free agency, so from that prospective the trade makes sense (that is the only perspective from which the trade makes sense).

I think you're wrong about there being "no way Koch gets a $6M contract for next year." The arbitrator will look at the going rate for closers who saved 44 games with a sub-3.50 ERA and will find that $6M is not out of line with the market. My guess is he'll get somewhere between $5 and $7 million (if the Sox don't sign him instead of going through arbitration).

I looked at Koch's stats and they weren't as bad as I thought. But he allows way more baserunners than Foulke does, so for the legion of Sox fans who have said that they crap a brick every time Foulke takes the hill, better stock up on your Depends Adult Undergarments, because Koch, even at his best, gets into lots of jams.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
We have no idea how the other two minor leaguers will turn out, but I for one, am thrilled that Jonson will no longer be hitting .200 for this team.


I suppose this might be a valid point if we had someone to replace him. But we don't. If you're worried about winning now, you probably don't want Olivo starting next year; he still has a lot to learn and could use at least 1/2 year at AAA. And if you think watching MJ hit .200 was painful, wait until you see Josh Paul hit .220, make defensive gaffe after defensive gaffe, fail to move runners along, make boneheaded base running mistakes, etc., etc., etc.

jeremyb1
12-03-2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't know if this solves our closer issue or not. Koch blew 6 saves last year and JM just might bench him if he has a couple in a row - like he did to Foulke. Maybe the Sox are expecting to sign Koch to a 3 yr deal for less than Foulke would have cost. With Foulke clearly returning to form at the end of last season, he could have had a good year and thus the Sox would have been forced to pay him even MORE money in 2004. Heck, as it is there is no way Koch gets a $6M contract for next year and thus they are one step closer to lowering payroll and further lining JR's pockets...

while it makes no difference to me, the fact that koch is the prototypical closer in the sense that he throws incredibly hard, seems to be animated and a little bit nuts, appears intimidating on the mound, etc. will probably provide him with better job security. i don't think there's anyway we were going to sign foulke after this season and koch will be on the team for two years now compared to the one year foulke would've stuck around so that's a plus.

koch may not get six million this year but he made over two million last year and is coming off a season in which he saved 44 games so i'm guessing he'll get at least 4 million. add to that the 500,000 for mj and the cash we sent over in the deal and this is not a salary dump. if we just wanted to dump foulke's 6 million deal we could've sent him to the cubs or a similar team for a fringe prospect and picked up something like two million dollars of his contract saving us 4 million dollars. i'm guessing when all is said and done we'll save at most 1 million in this deal and probably less. the a's aren't taking on much salary in this deal because they simply can't afford to. it has to be pretty even in terms of money.

jeremyb1
12-03-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
We have no idea how the other two minor leaguers will turn out, but I for one, am thrilled that Jonson will no longer be hitting .200 for this team.

Everyone on this board seems to get bent out of shape over the fact we included Valentine. Do you people want to win now or what?? We have a good amount of kids who will be coming to the show soon, as evidenced by the AFL, so getting rid of him isn't the worst thing.

Let's give this a chance.

My guess is everyone on here would criticize K Dub no matter what move is made.

well i think many are upset not because we dealt valentine but because we included valentine and johnson in a deal in which statistically at least foulke is the better of the two closers.

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i don't think there's anyway we were going to sign foulke after this season and koch will be on the team for two years now compared to the one year foulke would've stuck around so that's a plus.

I think it was a crappy trade, but Koch is a good closer (but at his best he is not as good as Foulke at his best) and we do have the security of knowing he'll be here in '04. Also, I've seen him interviewed, and I like his tenacity and his competitiveness. From what I have seen/heard, he does strike me as a guy who is obsessed with winning. And as currently constituted, the Sox don't have enough guys of that ilk.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-03-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think it was a crappy trade, but Koch is a good closer (but at his best he is not as good as Foulke at his best) and we do have the security of knowing he'll be here in '04. Also, I've seen him interviewed, and I like his tenacity and his competitiveness. From what I have seen/heard, he does strike me as a guy who is obsessed with winning. And as currently constituted, the Sox don't have enough guys of that ilk.

LOL! I wonder if Koch will still have the "eye of the tiger" after watching quality teammates get sold off for cash and magic beans the way Foulke's were!

idseer
12-03-2002, 02:07 PM
i don't mind this trade at all.
foulke may be inherently better, but i don't think he would have produced as well staying with the sox. i don't think he was happy here and i believe it affected his performance under pressure. when he was moved out of the closer spot he lightened up but i think it may have been a case of a weight being lifted from his shoulders.
you also know he wants to start, and while i doubt he'll get that opportunity in oakland, had he stayed here i believe he may have kept pushing for that causing more turmoil.
i think he'll do just fine for the a's ... better than he would have for us this coming year.
the younger koch is motivated and still wants to impress which leads me to think he'll have a better year for the sox than foulke would have.
i'm not crazy about losing valentine, but he was certainly no proven commodity and the others we got in the deal may make up for his loss. one of those wait and see jobs.
i'm glad johnson is gone too. i want to see olivo thrust into the fire and show us what he's got.

duke of dorwood
12-03-2002, 02:08 PM
How do you get to the 7th inning ? Another bad trade.

pudge
12-03-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I suppose this might be a valid point if we had someone to replace him. But we don't. If you're worried about winning now, you probably don't want Olivo starting next year; he still has a lot to learn and could use at least 1/2 year at AAA. And if you think watching MJ hit .200 was painful, wait until you see Josh Paul hit .220, make defensive gaffe after defensive gaffe, fail to move runners along, make boneheaded base running mistakes, etc., etc., etc.

Don't worry, this was all done to save a few bucks so we could sign Ivan Rodriguez.

Am I supposed to put that in pink?

hold2dibber
12-03-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
LOL! I wonder if Koch will still have the "eye of the tiger" after watching quality teammates get sold off for cash and magic beans the way Foulke's were!

Good point - JR and KW are quite adept at crushing employee morale. But I still say that it is important to have guys who care about winning first and foremost (see Angles, Anaheim, 2002), and I think Koch has that (but I'd still rather have Foulke).

OfficerKarkovice
12-03-2002, 03:18 PM
As far as the players to be named later go (from KW):

"Because minor league rosters are frozen right now, we will announce the two other players in the deal sometime in late December."

Cheryl
12-03-2002, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
According to then GM Ron Schueler, the "keys" to the deal were Mike Caruso and Lorenzo Barcelo. Foulke was actually an "afterthought."

Lip

I know. I remember Reinsdorf/Schueler talking up Caruso when the trade was made. I also remember them revising their opinion when it turned out Slappy wasn't really ML material.