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View Full Version : Konerko v Lee-Main story.


Joel Perez
11-30-2002, 11:40 AM
Kudos to Andrew Ritchie (aka Kermitthefrog) for his writing and research on both Konerko and Lee on today's website.

If I may add one little thing...

I feel the reason why Paul Konerko is more valuable than Carlos Lee is the almighty intangible: Team Chemistry.

Whereas Carlos is still learning the ropes, as is Paulie, it's Konerko who has taken over the role as "The Leader in the Clubhouse" in a positive way, while Carlos, although not necessarily taking a back seat, is learning from players like Paul and Magglio. Paul made it a point to become more vocal on his views without necessarily making himself a cancer in the clubhouse. Not much was heard from Carlos, although it was from his bat. Both players handled the Frank Thomas situation as well as it could have been handled last year, and apologized when necessary for any actions that could have been viewed as cancerous.

Also, it's true that numbers don't lie, and it looks like based on Andrew's research that El Caballo is primed for a huge 2003. The only problem is that the Sox have too many one-dimensional players on the team (Liefer, Konerko, Lee, Thomas, etc)--they can either hit and can't field, or vice versa. Although Paul is a good fielder, he doesn't have the range as a Jeff Bagwell, or in his prime, a Fred McGriff. On a great team, Paul may be a DH.

Same for Carlos...he's been a great hitter in the minors, and he is learning the ropes in the AL; however if he cannot master what it takes to be an average fielder, then what do you do? Numbers may dictate otherwise that Carlos is a fine fielder; however in the majority of the Sox games that I saw last year, Carlos has to get in the right spot or the ball may go over his head or right by him. He has average speed now...when he gets to be over 30, how "average" would he be then?

At first base, you can get away with playing with "average speed". That's why Paulie is there...although he, laughably, is a tick below average. Since he's there, and with Joe Borchard breathing down his neck, where is Carlos going to play? DH???

That's why, I feel, that Paul Konerko is valuable. Just my two cents.

FanOf14
11-30-2002, 12:16 PM
Defensively, Lee is trying to improve, but I don't think he'll ever make a decent fielder. I think Lee is average at bat (could be better in 2003 if he stays selective), but the problem is that when he does get on base, he doesn't seem to have a clue in how to run the bases. It's too bad because for a bigger guy, he's got decent to above average speed. Yes, he was more selective in the second half of 2002, but can he put an entire season together?

I realize Konerko has a similar problem with putting entire seasons together, but Konerko's problems tend to stem from injuries. That is my biggest problem with Konerko - injuries. I realize that his repeated foot injuries are most likely a product of his hip defect (my sister has hip problems and as a result deals with a lot of knee and foot problems - her doctor said there is a direct relationship between the two), but I wish there was something Herm or PK's doctor could do to help alleviate that problem. I am also going to have to disagree about Konerko being one dimensional. He may have no speed to speak of, but he definitely has a glove and brings it with him on game day.

Lip Man 1
11-30-2002, 12:49 PM
If Carlos is becomming that valuable of a hitter, then the Sox should have no trouble trading him for a quality starting pitcher.

If they can't then it's reasonable to assume that other GM's don't think Lee is worth a damn either.

Just my opinion

Lip

(Do you ever stop to think about what would happen if everyone legally changed their name to a number? Does that mean instead of taking a number while waiting in line, we'd all take a name???)

duke of dorwood
11-30-2002, 01:04 PM
Carlos is not a great outfielder, but is adequate. He has improved. By putting himself in the middle of controversey, Paul has become someone others look to say something and is a leader in that regard.

Soxheads
11-30-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


(Do you ever stop to think about what would happen if everyone legally changed their name to a number? Does that mean instead of taking a number while waiting in line, we'd all take a name???)

That's quite the thought there, Lip. :smile:

idseer
11-30-2002, 09:03 PM
i would add that the very thing kermit seems to knock konerko for is why i'd pick konerko. and that is consistancy. i think you can depend on pauls production. with lee ... who knows?

WinningUgly!
11-30-2002, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i would add that the very thing kermit seems to knock konerko for is why i'd pick konerko. and that is consistancy. i think you can depend on pauls production. with lee ... who knows?

Agreed. It's always nice to know you're pretty much guaranteed of getting 27-100-.295 every year out of any spot in the lineup. Kermit's column was great (as always) & he reminded me of why I'm so afraid of seeing Carlos Lee traded.

idseer
11-30-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Agreed. It's always nice to know you're pretty much guaranteed of getting 27-100-.295 every year out of any spot in the lineup. Kermit's column was great (as always) & he reminded of why I'm so afraid of seeing Carlos Lee traded.

true enough, i like them both too. but i also don't think paul has necessarily topped out. he's approaching his prime and if not for his injury lasy year he could have done much better. and i hope he proves it next year! :smile:

doublem23
11-30-2002, 11:11 PM
Excellent column. While I still may disagree with the final verdict that you'd shop around Konerko instead of Lee (Two letters: PR... Yes, as sad as it is to see fans run the team, public relations are still a thorn in people's sides). I do think Konerko is overrated right now. He is a solid hitter, btu people want to annoint him as the next Thomas and Ordonez are already chiseling his Cooperstown plaque (at least, that's the way I percieve things), and he's really not that good.

A great read, however.

Whoo... That was good coffee... :gulp:

jeremyb1
11-30-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If Carlos is becomming that valuable of a hitter, then the Sox should have no trouble trading him for a quality starting pitcher.

If they can't then it's reasonable to assume that other GM's don't think Lee is worth a damn either.


i thought that was one of the best parts of the article. a lot of gms are morons (look at our gm) and billy bean is probably the only gm in baseball who puts enough emphasis on obp even if the others attempt to take it into account. i think that considering the contrast between the market value and the actual value of the two players, if we had to trade one it'd make a lot more sense to trade paully because we'd receive much more in a trade and we could've signed carlos to a long term deal for less than paully.

voodoochile
11-30-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Soxheads
That's quite the thought there, Lip. :smile:

What if D-O-G really spelled cat?

Speaking of using numbers instead of names , shouldn't Jeri Ryan's character on Star Trek: Voyager been named 6 instead of 7?

Nellie_Fox
12-01-2002, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Agreed. It's always nice to know you're pretty much guaranteed of getting 27-100-.295 every year out of any spot in the lineup. Those were the numbers you could pencil in every year for the "in his prime" Harold Baines.

WinningUgly!
12-01-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Those were the numbers you could pencil in every year for the "in his prime" Harold Baines.

It's amazing how consistent Harold was throughout his career. The guy truly was a hitting machine. Even as late as 1999 he had a season of 25/103/.312! With that kind of production over such a long period of time, I guess I can understand why it was so hard for him to hang 'em up.

kermittheefrog
12-01-2002, 04:49 AM
Wow, I feel like I did a good job and sparked a fun discussion.

I wasn't trying to knock Konerko for consistency. What really went unsaid in the column because it was getting long is that to be a very productive hitter at 1B or LF these guys would have to step it up. It's great that Konerko has been so good and so consistent but at the same time he's not a great deal better than an average AL firstbaseman. Lee at least looks like he could be much better than average.

This also comes back to how I think you should build a team. Basically I think you get as many star caliber players as possible and fill up the remaining spots with guys like Scott Hatteberg. Cheap players who have some ability and could suprise you with a very good season. Exactly what Hatteberg did for Oakland last year. While we know Konerko is extremely consistent he's not one of the very best at his position. I say trade him while his value his highest.