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MarkEdward
11-25-2002, 11:49 PM
(Assuming the Sox aren't trying to do this already):

In your opinion, what has to be done to make this team competitive right now? Which prospects would you trade to acquire a veteran player? What free agents would you pick up (remember, you're on a budget)?

For what it's worth, I wouldn't change much on this team. I wouldn't give up prospects for a quick fix, now sign a washed-up free agent for big bucks.

VeeckAsInWreck
11-26-2002, 02:26 AM
Nice try, Kenny Williams!
Do your own work! :D:

Nah, if we are going to get a top of the rotation guy, I think we can part with some prospects. Just as long as we are not attempting to trade with the Pirates again!

Moses_Scurry
11-26-2002, 09:05 AM
I say that if you can get Colon, you do it no matter what the cost, prospectwise. I don't consider Crede a "prospect" anymore. Borchard is about the only one I would not trade since he should be in the starting lineup very soon. If the opportunity to get Colon, especially if he gets some kind of extension, is there then do it. Then you can start talking about signing Daal or Moyer as your #4 guy.

Colon is an ace. They aren't available very often, and how many of the Sox highly touted prospects have actually developed into aces over the years? Not many.

If the opportunity is there to get a definite ace on your staff, I would trade as many prospects as it would take and throw in CLee or something like that.

hold2dibber
11-26-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
(Assuming the Sox aren't trying to do this already):

In your opinion, what has to be done to make this team competitive right now? Which prospects would you trade to acquire a veteran player? What free agents would you pick up (remember, you're on a budget)?

For what it's worth, I wouldn't change much on this team. I wouldn't give up prospects for a quick fix, now sign a washed-up free agent for big bucks.

(1) Deal Rauch, CLee and the Expos' choice of one the following: Malone, Ring, Almonte, Valentine, Stewart, Sanders or any of the minor league pitchers we obtained in last year's mid-summer veteran purge, for Colon. (Contingent upon the Sox being able to sign Colon to a 3 or 4 year deal).

(2) Trade Rowand plus Biddle and one of the minor league pitchers above for Vernon Wells.

(3) Sign either Omar Daal, Paul Byrd or Ismael Valdes (realistically, the cheapest of the 3).

(4) Sign Todd Hollandsworth.

Leaving a starting line-up of:

Jimenez 2B
Hollandsworth LF
Thomas DH
Ordonez RF
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Crede 3B
Wells CF
MJ/J.Paul/Olivo C

Rotation:

Buehrle
Colon
Daal/Byrd/Valdes
Garland
Wright

Bench would include one of the catchers, Graffinino, Leifer and Harris. Bullpen of Foulke, Osuna, Marte, Wunsch, Ginter and Glover.

I realize these moves will increase payroll, but not astronomically. Plus, the Sox have already shaved about $16 or $18 million from last year's opening day payroll. While some of that savings has already been eaten up by raises to PK, Ordonez and Foulke, they would save additional $ by dealing CLee. Without crunching the numbers, I'm guessing that team would require about a $60-$65 mm payroll, which certainly is not beyond the Sox' grasp.

But despite all this, I'd rather see them stand pat than make a few b.s. "cosmetic" changes to appease the fans. In other words, just signing Daal or Byrd or Valdes to me would be a waste. Either make some bold moves, like those above, to truly give the team a chance to win big, or let the youngsters take their shot and leave well enough alone. Just don't half-ass it.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2002, 10:13 AM
My criteria is simple.

1. By opening day, IMPROVE the quality of at least 3 of these 4 areas: rotation, leadoff man, center field, and catcher. By this I mean, the opening day roster must be better than Wright/Biddle/Ritchie, Jimenez/Durham, Lofton/Rowand, and Johnson/Paul.

2. To achieve #1, only trade everyday players if you can IMMEDIATELY replace them through free agent signings with players of equal or greater value.

3. If you trade to acquire players, toss in cash (rather than extra players) to fill the deal. This tack usually works best when dealing with lousy teams who don't have any aspirations of fielding a champion. They'll take money over fair value, so squeeze them to your own benefit.

Who are the teams to trade with in #3? The usual suspects. Tampa, Kansas City, Montreal, Florida, etc.

This isn't very complicated. The trick is finding a GM who knows the difference between "IMPROVE the quality" type players, and the other kind. KW has shown NO aptitude in this department (Clayton, Alomar, Ritchie to cite just 3 examples).

And of course the other trick is to find an owner willing to spend what is necessary to complete the improvements. Here, again, we Sox Fans are totally screwed.

86 years and waiting. Have a nice eternity...

WinningUgly!
11-26-2002, 11:23 AM
I agree with most of the ideas in this thread so far. I think it's a must to not just add a starter, but at least two. Maddux, Glavine & Clemens won't happen so adding 2 of the following would be a top priorities to me (in this order)...
1) Colon
2) Byrd
3) Moyer
4) Daal
5) Trachsel
6) Valdez

hold2dibber
11-26-2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I agree with most of the ideas in this thread so far. I think it's a must to not just add a starter, but at least two. Maddux, Glavine & Clemens won't happen so adding 2 of the following would be a top priorities to me (in this order)...
1) Colon
2) Byrd
3) Moyer
4) Daal
5) Trachsel
6) Valdez

Just out of curiosity, who would you be willing to trade to get Colon? If the Expos insisted upon either Borchard or Rauch as part of the deal, would you do it? What if they wanted one of those guys plus either Garland, CLee, or Wright?

Iwritecode
11-26-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Just out of curiosity, who would you be willing to trade to get Colon? If the Expos insisted upon either Borchard or Rauch as part of the deal, would you do it? What if they wanted one of those guys plus either Garland, CLee, or Wright?

Trading Rauch, Garland or Wright for him wouldn't make any sense because that would just fill one hole while creating another one in the rotation. If they do trade Colon I think it will be more of a salary dump than anything so I doubt they would take CLee. IMHO, I think it would take a few top propects and a few lower paid major league ready players (basically anyone besides Maggs, CLee, Konerko or Thomas).

hold2dibber
11-26-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Trading Rauch, Garland or Wright for him wouldn't make any sense because that would just fill one hole while creating another one in the rotation.

It would be creating a hole at the back of the rotation but filling a hole at the top of the rotation. That, in my mind, does make sense. Especially since we have guys we can plug in at the end of the rotation (e.g., Biddle, Ritchie, etc.). I mean, I'm guessing you would trade Wright for Pedro Martinez, even thought that would create a hole in the rotation. Colon isn't quite Pedro, but he's damn good (and a hell of a lot better than Garland or Wright).

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
It would be creating a hole at the back of the rotation but filling a hole at the top of the rotation. That, in my mind, does make sense. Especially since we have guys we can plug in at the end of the rotation (e.g., Biddle, Ritchie, etc.). I mean, I'm guessing you would trade Wright for Pedro Martinez, even thought that would create a hole in the rotation. Colon isn't quite Pedro, but he's damn good (and a hell of a lot better than Garland or Wright).

This above is a perfect example of how the Sox' usual method of skimping leaves the roster short of championship-caliber.

Sure, KW will trade for Darren Erstad, but not without giving up Jon Garland. Given that the Sox CUT payroll in 2002, we KNOW KW had no plans for replacing Garland.

Fill one hole, create another. Just make sure the chairman makes money.

IWC is right. the roster IMPROVEMENT of acquiring a better pitcher (Colon) is largely wiped out by giving up Rauch, Garland, or Wright. This isn't too dissimilar to KW giving up Sirotka to get David Wells.

Now, if we gave Montreal a few non-core players/prospects plus additional cash (or alternately, acquired a free agent pitcher) the net value of the acquisition to our championship aspirations is COMPLETELY different.

At least one of three pitchers (Biddle, Ritchie, or Wright) doesn't go away--they end up in the bullpen. Guys like Mike Porzio are out of a job. This is a good thing!

You see, this is where the investment pays off. The entire roster gets better when you swap out weak performers for stronger ones. You don't need to bring in Pedro Martinez for the effect to be a positive one.

Teams that win 90+ games year after year ALWAYS do this. The Sox NEVER do this. That's why we are LOSERS. (Apologies to our amazing average of 83 annual wins the past few years).

hold2dibber
11-26-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This above is a perfect example of how the Sox' usual method of skimping leaves the roster short of championship-caliber.

Sure, KW will trade for Darren Erstad, but not without giving up Jon Garland. Given that the Sox CUT payroll in 2002, we KNOW KW had no plans for replacing Garland.

Fill one hole, create another. Just make sure the chairman makes money.

IWC is right. the roster IMPROVEMENT of acquiring a better pitcher (Colon) is largely wiped out by giving up Rauch, Garland, or Wright. This isn't too dissimilar to KW giving up Sirotka to get David Wells.

Now, if we gave Montreal a few non-core players/prospects plus additional cash (or alternately, acquired a free agent pitcher) the net value of the acquisition to our championship aspirations is COMPLETELY different.

At least one of three pitchers (Biddle, Ritchie, or Wright) doesn't go away--they end up in the bullpen. Guys like Mike Porzio are out of a job. This is a good thing!

You see, this is where the investment pays off. The entire roster gets better when you swap out weak performers for stronger ones. You don't need to bring in Pedro Martinez for the effect to be a positive one.

Teams that win 90+ games year after year ALWAYS do this. The Sox NEVER do this. That's why we are LOSERS. (Apologies to our amazing average of 83 annual wins the past few years).

I don't get where you're coming from on this at all, PHG. If you want to amass talent via trade, you generally do have to give away something of quality. There are exceptions, but it is true as a general rule. Arizona gave away Vincente Padilla (who has turned into a damn good starter) to get Curt Schilling. The A's had to give up Eric Hinske to get Billy Koch. The Expos had to give up Brandon Phillips and some other quality prospects to get Colon. Trades work that way. To suggest that the improvement in obtaining Colon would be largely wiped out if you had to give up Danny Wright strikes me as nuts. Colon is MUCH better than Danny Wright. Thus, dealing Wright for Colon makes the team better. Period. It is true that it would be better to get Colon for nothing (or for a couple of non-prospects and some cash) but that ain't happening. Would you rather deal Wright, Malone and Ring for Colon (leaving a rotation of Buehrle, Colon, Garland, Rauch and Biddle) or just sign Ismael Valdes (leaving a rotation of Buehrle, Valdes, Garland, Wright and Rauch)? I'd take the former, in a heart beat. Colon is a difference maker. To obtain a difference maker in a trade, you're going to have to create a hole somewhere else in the roster; the trick is making sure that it is a hole that you have some depth to fill in (and for the Sox, they have some depth in terms of back of the rotation starters).

Basically, your suggestion, if I understand it, comes down to this. To improve the team, the Sox must either trade non-prospects/non-core players (and, perhaps, cash) for guys who are better than the guys currently on our roster or by signing free agents. The problem is, obtaining players who are better than our current players in exchange for crap and cash is easier said than done. And the FA market is largely bereft of the type of guys that would be real difference makers for the Sox.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
....Basically, your suggestion, if I understand it, comes down to this. To improve the team, the Sox must either trade non-prospects/non-core players (and, perhaps, cash) for guys who are better than the guys currently on our roster or by signing free agents. The problem is, obtaining players who are better than our current players in exchange for crap and cash is easier said than done. And the FA market is largely bereft of the type of guys that would be real difference makers for the Sox.

First, nobody ever said it was easy. If it was easy, everyone would do it. However, quite a few teams are doing it a whole lot better than our Sox.

Check for yourself. Any team that hasn't dropped 14 games in the win column the last two years and managed to win over half of their games in 2002 probably has a better handle on building a champion than either Williams or Reinsdorf.

Nobody ever said we should expect perfection in roster moves, but you definitely need to be better than the next team making theirs. By this criteria, the Sox front office is an abject failure.

Perhaps now you understand why I get so frustrated with excuse-making for Sox mediocrity. If Reinsdorf honestly believes he can't do it any way other than his cheap, skimping way, he really needs to sell the ballclub. He has had 22 seasons to figure it out, and we're no closer today than the day he bought the club from Veeck back in 1981.

That's what makes this situation so pathetic. "First-class" organization? It's been a long time since Reinsdorf behaved like he really meant that about the Sox.

hold2dibber
11-26-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
First, nobody ever said it was easy. If it was easy, everyone would do it. However, quite a few teams are doing it a whole lot better than our Sox.

Check for yourself. Any team that hasn't dropped 14 games in the win column the last two years and managed to win over half of their games in 2002 probably has a better handle on building a champion than either Williams or Reinsdorf.

Nobody ever said we should expect perfection in roster moves, but you definitely need to be better than the next team making theirs. By this criteria, the Sox front office is an abject failure.

Perhaps now you understand why I get so frustrated with excuse-making for Sox mediocrity. If Reinsdorf honestly believes he can't do it any way other than his cheap, skimping way, he really needs to sell the ballclub. He has had 22 seasons to figure it out, and we're no closer today than the day he bought the club from Veeck back in 1981.

That's what makes this situation so pathetic. "First-class" organization? It's been a long time since Reinsdorf behaved like he really meant that about the Sox.

I don't disagree with a word you said. Winning has to become THE goal of the organization. That is not the goal now (or it is, but with lots of caveats and contingencies).

cornball
11-26-2002, 08:06 PM
Funny thing PHG we have a tendancy to agree on this. For me, I would first sign a FA pitcher...perferably Moyer.

Then exhaust all effort to get a stud starter ala Colon. You can return a starter to them along with prospects.

All prospects would be available with the exceptions of Honel, Bourchard and others that have the possiblity of being 5 star players according to the our scouts.

I would love to replace Valentin at short, with a top of the order type ss with a better glove..... or plan to live with JV til next year and set the table for the Japanese SS Matsui for next year, because of no help on the farm.

Finally if i could upgrade CF or catcher ...i would.

I see on another post J.D. Drew and Giles are available and would look into it for centerfield, with little confidence in Rowand for a full season. A lefty would balance the lineup, plus by doing so i would have Bourchard (having involved C Lee in a trade somewhere) start the season in left with a more vet. lineup. I like Rowand but i dont see him as a long term centerfielder for the Sox.

MarkEdward
11-26-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by cornball

I would love to replace Valentin at short, with a top of the order type ss with a better glove..... or plan to live with JV til next year and set the table for the Japanese SS Matsui for next year, because of no help on the farm.

Jose Hernandez?

I see on another post J.D. Drew and Giles are available and would look into it for centerfield, with little confidence in Rowand for a full season. A lefty would balance the lineup, plus by doing so i would have Bourchard (having involved C Lee in a trade somewhere) start the season in left with a more vet. lineup. I like Rowand but i dont see him as a long term centerfielder for the Sox.

Wouldn't Borchard's talents and athleticism be wasted in left field? Plus, a power-hitting center fielder is more valuable than a power-hitting left fielder.

I really don't want to see Aaron Rowand in center on opening day. Either find a quick fix (Rickey Henderson) or let Borchard start.

Daver
11-26-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward




Wouldn't Borchard's talents and athleticism be wasted in left field? Plus, a power-hitting center fielder is more valuable than a power-hitting left fielder.

I really don't want to see Aaron Rowand in center on opening day. Either find a quick fix (Rickey Henderson) or let Borchard start.

Yes they would in a big way.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2002, 09:12 PM
In my "ideal" outfield, Borchard plays right field, Maggs left, and our outstanding new leadoff man/centerfielder makes the trio the best offensive and defensive outfield in the major leagues.

In my "make do" outfield, I'll pretty much take anybody that represents an upgrade over Aaron Rowand in center.

Daver
11-26-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


In my "make do" outfield, I'll pretty much take anybody that represents an upgrade over Aaron Rowand in center.

:chopper

I'm available PHG,I'm sure I have at least one year left!

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by daver
:chopper

I'm available PHG,I'm sure I have at least one year left!

I know Chopper can shag flies without running into walls, but can he bat righty against southpaws?

Sorry. Bad pun.

:gulp:

WinningUgly!
11-26-2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Just out of curiosity, who would you be willing to trade to get Colon? If the Expos insisted upon either Borchard or Rauch as part of the deal, would you do it? What if they wanted one of those guys plus either Garland, CLee, or Wright?

It depends on whether or not we'd be able to sign him to an extention, or if that would even be a part of KW's plans(assuming he has any). He's a FA at the end of this season & his value is significantly less now, for that reason, than it was last year when the Expos traded for him. I wouldn't be as willing to give up as much for him with the strong possibility of him walking away at the end of the season. Something like Wright & a few mid to high prospects-with his current contract status. With a 3-4 year extention, names like Lee, Garland, Rauch, etc are a little easier to throw around.

maurice
11-27-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Jose Hernandez

An underrated player. I could never understand why the scrubs got rid of him. However, he's not really much of an upgrade over Jose:

- Same age as Jose
- Only bats right-handed
- Could strike out 200 times
- 2002 OPS only .044 higher than Jose's
- 19 errors in 2002 with less range (IIRC)

I think we can deal with one more year of Jose at SS. Maybe Jimenez will be able to take over in 2004.


Rickey Henderson

Not an upgrade over Crash:

- 44 in December
- Hasn't batted higher than .233 in three years
- A's played DAVE Henderson in center over Rickey

Giles or Finley would be good, but they're not coming here.

MarkEdward
11-27-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by maurice
An underrated player. I could never understand why the scrubs got rid of him. However, he's not really much of an upgrade over Jose:

- Same age as Jose
- Only bats right-handed
- Could strike out 200 times
- 2002 OPS only .044 higher than Jose's
- 19 errors in 2002 with less range (IIRC)

I think we can deal with one more year of Jose at SS. Maybe Jimenez will be able to take over in 2004.

Yeah, I was just throwing out a suggestion. Although I really don't see the problem with all the strikeouts.

And looking at Jose Valentin's splits, he should really become a full time left-handed hitter. He was useless against lefties (.465 OPS).




Not an upgrade over Crash:

- 44 in December
- Hasn't batted higher than .233 in three years
- A's played DAVE Henderson in center over Rickey

Giles or Finley would be good, but they're not coming here.

I also, agree. Rickey's pretty much a pipe dream. He'd make a great fourth outfielder. His average is falling, but his OBP is consistently above .360.

baggio202
11-28-2002, 01:28 AM
1. trade for colon...i would give up alot to get him..im sure we would have to give up rauch and a couple of other top prospects..

2. get moyer or byrd for the number 3 spot

3. upgrade at catcher...olivo 's future might look bright but if we want to win NOW a veteran catcher thats not broken down is a must...not sure who...this might be impossible to fill within our budget

4. bullpen..get mike stanton and atleast one other quality arm..im still not 100% sold on marte..i hope he is great next year but if he falls off the planet it wont surprise me either..free agent wise the bullpen could be a huge upgrade for the sox...2 to 3 million a year can buy a dam good middle reliever..if the sox refuse to spend money on any of the upgrades i or anyone else here suggest , they could easily afford to upgrade the pen

5. i know we will never do this (or anything else i suggested) but id sign ray durham back...wee willie harris doesnt impress me much...ive always liked ray..but iknow iknow..it wont happen..none of this will..which is why i think .500 will be a good benchmark for this team

Lip Man 1
11-28-2002, 02:13 PM
Colon is about to become academic (see new thread : Colon close to trade)

Lip

jeremyb1
11-28-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
1. trade for colon...i would give up alot to get him..im sure we would have to give up rauch and a couple of other top prospects..

2. get moyer or byrd for the number 3 spot

3. upgrade at catcher...olivo 's future might look bright but if we want to win NOW a veteran catcher thats not broken down is a must...not sure who...this might be impossible to fill within our budget

4. bullpen..get mike stanton and atleast one other quality arm..im still not 100% sold on marte..i hope he is great next year but if he falls off the planet it wont surprise me either..free agent wise the bullpen could be a huge upgrade for the sox...2 to 3 million a year can buy a dam good middle reliever..if the sox refuse to spend money on any of the upgrades i or anyone else here suggest , they could easily afford to upgrade the pen

5. i know we will never do this (or anything else i suggested) but id sign ray durham back...wee willie harris doesnt impress me much...ive always liked ray..but iknow iknow..it wont happen..none of this will..which is why i think .500 will be a good benchmark for this team

only problem i see with that is as you hinted at, it'd cost us over 20 million in payroll which we either don't have or are unwilling to spend. also, i just can't see trading that much for colon only to lose him a year later. that means we have to at least make it to the alcs this year and probably the world series for it to be worthwhile. otherwise we'd be left with nothing. gammons listed colon today as the third best free agent next offseason. i don't see how he'll get less than 12 mil a year.

baggio202
11-28-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
only problem i see with that is as you hinted at, it'd cost us over 20 million in payroll which we either don't have or are unwilling to spend. also, i just can't see trading that much for colon only to lose him a year later. that means we have to at least make it to the alcs this year and probably the world series for it to be worthwhile. otherwise we'd be left with nothing. gammons listed colon today as the third best free agent next offseason. i don't see how he'll get less than 12 mil a year.

thats why i said i know it wont happen...the sox could afford a 20 million dollar increase in payroll..thats a given...but we all know that isnt gonna happen...thats why im not very optimistic this year

Joel Perez
11-29-2002, 04:15 PM
1) Make a deal for either Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux. A 3-yr deal. This way, the starting rotation would have their Veteran to teach the youngsters, as well as a new Ace. (Sorry, Burlymon) This way, the Sox do not have to give up any youngsters to get an accomplished pitcher, such as Bartolo Colon. I would not include Jon Rauch or Jon Garland in any trade deal...these two could very much have a great season next year if they follow a Clemens or a Maddux.

2) Trade Carlos Lee for a center fielder. Lee is a one-dimensional player, who needs some serious homework on what it takes to man the Left Field. Try to see if we can get a run for Jacque Jones in Minnesota--someone who can fly in CF as well as hit. Also, get ready for the Joe Borchard era in LF next year.

3) Trade either Keith Foulke or Antonio Osuna. Next year's bullpen would be interesting chemistry-wise if these two, along with Damaso Marte, are all back. Who would get the ball in the 9th inning??? Foulke may be harder to trade, as well as Osuna coming off of shoulder surgery a year ago, but inexpensive.

4) Make a decision on Aaron Rowand or Jeff Liefer as trade bait. Rowand is not the future in CF, no matter what anyone says, unless he goes out and has a Lance Berkman-type year. Jeff can do only one thing--crush a baseball if he makes contact. These two have value--let's get help somewhere.

jeremyb1
11-29-2002, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
2) Trade Carlos Lee for a center fielder. Lee is a one-dimensional player, who needs some serious homework on what it takes to man the Left Field. Try to see if we can get a run for Jacque Jones in Minnesota--someone who can fly in CF as well as hit. Also, get ready for the Joe Borchard era in LF next year.

4) Make a decision on Aaron Rowand or Jeff Liefer as trade bait. Rowand is not the future in CF, no matter what anyone says, unless he goes out and has a Lance Berkman-type year. Jeff can do only one thing--crush a baseball if he makes contact. These two have value--let's get help somewhere. [/B]

i'll never understand the criticisms of rowand in cf. he may not be a prototypical centerfielder but i fail to see how it is that he doesn't get the job done. he's not a gold glover but most players aren't. while he has struggled with his throwing accuracy some he has a very strong arm and he takes great routes to the ball. he may not be the fastest centerfielder out there but so what? if he takes good routes and runs hard he'll get the to ball. i can recall a single instance where he badly misplayed a fly ball last year which lofton seemed to do on a regular basis.

voodoochile
11-29-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I know Chopper can shag flies without running into walls, but can he bat righty against southpaws?

Sorry. Bad pun.

:gulp:

Don't know if he can hit, but my bet would be his desire to fetch every pitch would lead to a high OBP from him constantly getting popped in the puss. Maybe we can get Chopper to catch. He would have a higher fld% than any of our current crop, wouldn't have to throw to second - he could just beat the guy stealing to the bag, the above mentioned high OBP means we could bat him anywhere in the lineup and of course there is the unexpected bonus of our pitchers not having to go to the mouth to throw spitters...

:D:

Daver
11-29-2002, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Don't know if he can hit, but my bet would be his desire to fetch every pitch would lead to a high OBP from him constantly getting popped in the puss. Maybe we can get Chopper to catch. He would have a higher fld% than any of our current crop, wouldn't have to throw to second - he could just beat the guy stealing to the bag, the above mentioned high OBP means we could bat him anywhere in the lineup and of course there is the unexpected bonus of our pitchers not having to go to the mouth to throw spitters...

:D:

LOL!!!

Chopper doesn't have the speed to outrun a runner anymore Voodoo,you would need to elect Wildchild for that.

:)

hold2dibber
12-02-2002, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
1) Make a deal for either Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux. A 3-yr deal. This way, the starting rotation would have their Veteran to teach the youngsters, as well as a new Ace. (Sorry, Burlymon) This way, the Sox do not have to give up any youngsters to get an accomplished pitcher, such as Bartolo Colon. I would not include Jon Rauch or Jon Garland in any trade deal...these two could very much have a great season next year if they follow a Clemens or a Maddux.

2) Trade Carlos Lee for a center fielder. Lee is a one-dimensional player, who needs some serious homework on what it takes to man the Left Field. Try to see if we can get a run for Jacque Jones in Minnesota--someone who can fly in CF as well as hit. Also, get ready for the Joe Borchard era in LF next year.

3) Trade either Keith Foulke or Antonio Osuna. Next year's bullpen would be interesting chemistry-wise if these two, along with Damaso Marte, are all back. Who would get the ball in the 9th inning??? Foulke may be harder to trade, as well as Osuna coming off of shoulder surgery a year ago, but inexpensive.

4) Make a decision on Aaron Rowand or Jeff Liefer as trade bait. Rowand is not the future in CF, no matter what anyone says, unless he goes out and has a Lance Berkman-type year. Jeff can do only one thing--crush a baseball if he makes contact. These two have value--let's get help somewhere.

Sheesh - I have to say I disagree with just about everything you're suggesting! :smile:

(1) Both Maddux and Clemens will command over $10 million per year. Both are old. Both have shown signs of declining health and/or effectiveness over the last year or two. I don't think it would be wise to devote a high percentage of team payroll to either of them (especially Clemens).

(2) If they trade Lee, I pray it is for starting pitching. I don't like Rowand, but I have yet to hear anyone suggest that Borchard will not be able to handle center field in a year or two.

(3) Osuna has never been a closer on a regular basis and has been, at very best, mediocre at it when he's been assigned that role. Foulke is clearly the best closer on the team. Trading him (or even Osuna) makes the bullpen weaker. The bullpen can be a strength next year if the keep it together.

(4) Neither Rowand nor Liefer have any real value on their own. They might be the "sweeten the deal" kind of guys that could get a big trade of someone else (e.g., Foulke or Lee) over the hump. But they both strike me as useful bench players, but neither is going to get you much in a trade.