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RichH55
11-22-2002, 03:47 AM
White Sox positional rankings based on OPS
Team P C 1B 2B 3B SS LF CF RF DH PH
CHW 7 9 7 4 5 9 8 8 1 4 8

For AL only 1 being best, 14 being worst

RichH55
11-22-2002, 03:48 AM
I'm kind of surprised that Paulie only managed to finish 7th among 1Bs...c'est la vie

FanOf14
11-22-2002, 08:53 AM
It surprises me, but it doesn't at the same time.

maurice
11-22-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I'm kind of surprised that Paulie only managed to finish 7th among 1Bs...c'est la vie

There are a ton of 1B-types in the AL who walk a lot and hit for power. Paulie will need to step it up a notch in both departments to be among the elite.

The Sox could score 1000 runs if Paulie and Hurt both improve their offensive production in 2003.

:)

PaleHoseGeorge
11-22-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I'm kind of surprised that Paulie only managed to finish 7th among 1Bs...c'est la vie

Which teams were ranked #1-#6? Who were their firstbasemen? Konerko was an all-star for his first-half play, but played hurt and wasn't even the best player on his team (Ordonez) the second-half. I'm not surprised he finished seventh at all.

You need to put up phenomenal season-long numbers to be considered the best firstbasemen in the A.L. In fact, you practically need League MVP numbers to be the best at this position. As for the ongoing "Paulie is God" love affair, someone besides me is going to have to explain that.

Lip Man 1
11-22-2002, 01:18 PM
Maurice says:

The Sox could score 1000 runs if Paulie and Hurt both improve their offensive production in 2003.

The REAL question is, will the pitching staff give up 1100????? LOL

Lip

FanOf14
11-22-2002, 01:44 PM
Does defense come into play in this ranking?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-22-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Does defense come into play in this ranking?

OPS = on-base percentage + slugging.

Please, please, please don't start the argument that firstbasemen need to deliver superior defense a'la a Flubs fan defending Mark Grace's noodle bat.

Am I reading these rankings right? Maggs garnered a #1 for the Sox in RF, and Durham and Frank Thomas each got #4 among secondbasemen and designated hitters respectively. Konerko was only a #7, just two places better than Klayton at SS, LMAO!

Let the whining begin!

:gulp:

FanOf14
11-22-2002, 02:08 PM
Sheesh, ask a question and get jumped on...

PaleHoseGeorge
11-22-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Sheesh, ask a question and get jumped on...

Just having some fun, 14. :D:

What I find funny is Klayton getting a #9 ranking for shortstops. My God, who were #10-#14? :smile:

Maybe the Sox were helped out at SS because Manuel finally benched Klayton in August? I dunno. I admit I'm truly amused by all of this.

:gulp:

RichH55
11-22-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by maurice
There are a ton of 1B-types in the AL who walk a lot and hit for power. Paulie will need to step it up a notch in both departments to be among the elite.

The Sox could score 1000 runs if Paulie and Hurt both improve their offensive production in 2003.

:)

Damn straight...this is a pretty fine lineup even with the youth and question marks.....should leave some leeway to go out and get a real # 2

Dadawg_77
11-22-2002, 02:35 PM
The Players with at least 300 AB at 1B who had a higher OPS then Pauly: (in order)
Thome
Giambi
Sweeney
Palmeiro
Delgado
Olerud

Teams with a better OPS at 1B (In Order)
Clev
KC
Yankees (Maybe this is why they want to trade Johnson)
Toronto
Texas
Seatlle

Overall OPS
Yankees
Texas
Boston
White Sox
Anaheim
A's
Twins
Seatlle

Another intersting tibit is from the seventh inning on the White Sox lead the AL in OPS. Vs Power pitchers the Sox have .779 OPS while vs Finesse they have .791 but four slots in the standings. Pre All Star game the Sox had a .773 OPS and afterwards .803.

RichH55
11-22-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Just having some fun, 14. :D:

What I find funny is Klayton getting a #9 ranking for shortstops. My God, who were #10-#14? :smile:

Maybe the Sox were helped out at SS because Manuel finally benched Klayton in August? I dunno. I admit I'm truly amused by all of this.

:gulp:


#10 Caruso
#11 Perez
#12 the 54 year old version of Ozzie Guillen
#13 My Grandfather
#14 TV's Ted Danson

And I still think Royce was overrated

:pee :hitless

RichH55
11-22-2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The Players with at least 300 AB at 1B who had a higher OPS then Pauly: (in order)
Thome
Giambi
Sweeney
Palmeiro
Delgado
Olerud

Teams with a better OPS at 1B (In Order)
Clev
KC
Yankees (Maybe this is why they want to trade Johnson)
Toronto
Texas
Seatlle

Overall OPS
Yankees
Texas
Boston
White Sox
Anaheim
A's
Twins
Seatlle

Another intersting tibit is from the seventh inning on the White Sox lead the AL in OPS. Vs Power pitchers the Sox have .779 OPS while vs Finesse they have .791 but four slots in the standings. Pre All Star game the Sox had a .773 OPS and afterwards .803.

It seems to me that Konerko should probably have a better OPS than Olreud

FanOf14
11-22-2002, 02:59 PM
Figured as much George. It wasn't directed at you, it just seems lately between the three Sox message boards that I frequent, many of posters seems so touchy. I agree about what you said, I just wasn't sure what the acronym meant. Being an engineer, you'd think I'd have more of an aptitude for them, but I don't.

maurice
11-22-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
It seems to me that Konerko should probably have a better OPS than Olreud

Olerud has always been a real good OBP guy (career .404) with decent power and good defense. He's consistently underated. Must be the helmet.

kermittheefrog
11-22-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

What I find funny is Klayton getting a #9 ranking for shortstops. My God, who were #10-#14? :smile:

It's not just the primary guy, it's all our production from SS. So what Jose did there counts too.

As for Konerko, first base is an exceptional hitting position right now, it's hard to crack the top five or so. I think it's kind of funny that for a while there were rumors of Paul Konerko being traded and I thought that was a horrible idea because Carlos Lee was a similar but lesser player. Right now even though PK just got the big extension there is a good argument for C-Lee as the superior player.

With that in mind I haven't written a By the Numbers column in a long time, looks like I have a good topic, I think I'll run with it rather than make a long post...

Nellie_Fox
11-22-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Right now even though PK just got the big extension there is a good argument for C-Lee as the superior player. Great googly-moogly. Tell me, who do you want to see coming to the plate in clutch situations?

FanOf14
11-22-2002, 05:00 PM
LOL Nellie, you said what I was thinkin'!

Dadawg_77
11-22-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Great googly-moogly. Tell me, who do you want to see coming to the plate in clutch situations?

Not sure, they both have had past success in that role. So I looked at their OPS for close and late situations. Last year Paul had a better with .870 compared to .817 for Carlos Lee. If you expand your time frame over the past three years, you will see Lee have a OPS of .878 in C&L and Paul have a .793 OPS. So basically either one is interchangeable with Lee getting a slight edge.

Also Paul is seventh in OPS ranks at first while Lee is fourth among reg LF. So comparatively Lee might be worth more.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-22-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
...Also Paul is seventh in OPS ranks at first while Lee is fourth among reg LF. So comparatively Lee might be worth more.

Whoops! You're going to rot in hell for that one, dawg! The FOW (Friends of Walnuts) are coming to get you!!!!

:)

FanOf14
11-22-2002, 05:36 PM
Numbers can be used to prove anything. Offensively, Lee was better than PK in the second half (but PK was also playing hurt), Konerko was a better player the first half. Defensively, Lee is a joke. One week he looked like was improving, and the next he was absolutely terrible.

jeremyb1
11-22-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


As for Konerko, first base is an exceptional hitting position right now, it's hard to crack the top five or so. I think it's kind of funny that for a while there were rumors of Paul Konerko being traded and I thought that was a horrible idea because Carlos Lee was a similar but lesser player. Right now even though PK just got the big extension there is a good argument for C-Lee as the superior player.


yeah, paully was hurt a lot by his poor second half and his poor walk rate.

guillen4life13
11-22-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Whoops! You're going to rot in hell for that one, dawg! The FOW (Friends of Walnuts) are coming to get you!!!!

:)

how did pauly earn the name Walnuts? you guys use it so much, yet I've never known the origin of this wonderful name. enlighten me :cool

Soxheads
11-22-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
how did pauly earn the name Walnuts? you guys use it so much, yet I've never known the origin of this wonderful name. enlighten me :cool

To the WSI Dictionary (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=) you must go!

RichH55
11-23-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
how did pauly earn the name Walnuts? you guys use it so much, yet I've never known the origin of this wonderful name. enlighten me :cool


I'm pretty sure its a Sopranos reference

PaleHoseGeorge
11-23-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I'm pretty sure its a Sopranos reference

Yes, it is. Paulie Walnuts is one of the "made" members of the Sopranos family. Apparently Konerko is a fan of the show, too.

That's Walnuts on the far-left.

:sopranos

Jjav829
11-23-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yes, it is. Paulie Walnuts is one of the "made" members of the Sopranos family. Apparently Konerko is a fan of the show, too.

That's Walnuts on the far-left.

:sopranos

Let's just hope Konerko doesn't get whacked like Paulie Walnuts seems to be headed towards.

Vsahajpal
11-24-2002, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Numbers can be used to prove anything. Offensively, Lee was better than PK in the second half (but PK was also playing hurt), Konerko was a better player the first half. Defensively, Lee is a joke. One week he looked like was improving, and the next he was absolutely terrible.

I don't know much about Carlos Lee's defense, but interestingly enough, he's top 10 in the MLB in total chances, putouts, assists, zone rating, fielding percentage, and range factor. He's #2 overall in fielding percentage and zone rating, and committed just 1 error in over 1100 innings.

Konerko's not a very good defensive 1B.

If the Sox are truly adamant about trading Lee, I know a good place for him, and I wouldn't mind giving up a couple of promising prospects.

awesomefan
11-24-2002, 07:14 AM
PaleHoseGeorge said........
Please, please, please don't start the argument that firstbasemen need to deliver superior defense a'la a Flubs fan defending Mark Grace's noodle bat.

PHG: I'm not a big Cub fan, everybody knows; but I don't understand your comment about Mark Grace's "noodle bat".

I think any team needs a superior defensive 1st baseman.

I assume "noodle bat" means....not a good hitter(offense) or do you mean not a good homerun hitter.

Since Mark Grace had the most hits of the 1990's decade, it doesn't sound to me like he had a "noodle bat".

I guess the "noodle bat" comment comes from his latter days with the Cubs, but Mark went on to be the 1st baseman on a World Series Winning team the Arizona Diamondbacks.

So now Mark is nearing the end of his career as a player & taking it all very well I think.

I really like Mark Grace since the Cubs dumped him, especially when he turned around & won a World Series ring. I love how he handled himself thru the whole ordeal by not get'n MAD but get'n EVEN........It don't mean a THING if you ain't got that RING...hehehehehehehehehehe

PaleHoseGeorge
11-24-2002, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by awesomefan
PHG: I'm not a big Cub fan, everybody knows; but I don't understand your comment about Mark Grace's "noodle bat".

I think any team needs a superior defensive 1st baseman...I assume "noodle bat" means....not a good hitter(offense) or do you mean not a good homerun hitter...Since Mark Grace had the most hits of the 1990's decade, it doesn't sound to me like he had a "noodle bat"...I guess the "noodle bat" comment comes from his latter days with the Cubs, but Mark went on to be the 1st baseman on a World Series Winning team the Arizona Diamondbacks....So now Mark is nearing the end of his career as a player & taking it all very well I think.

There is nothing wrong with liking Mark Grace. More power to you. Most hits in the 1990's? Sounds like the kind of record fans of a losing ballclub would think up. Getting even with those loser fans? I'm genuinely happy for him. "Noodle" bat? That's a fact.

Homeruns are nice, but slugging and OBP are what ultimately determine a player's offensive value. Grace was short compared to his peers in the National League, and nothing but a joke compared to A.L. firstbasemen (where power and OBP count even more since the pitcher never bats).

As for Grace making up the difference with his glove, he would have been playing left field or third base if he had any REAL defensive talent. The firstbasemen's position was created for behemoths who do little more than get on base and hit for power. That pretty much is the entire job description.

FanOf14
11-24-2002, 10:39 AM
So I guess be able to dig out rushed throws from your shortstop or thirdbasemen means nothing and being able to defend the line means nothing as well. Who knew that you could stick anyone with no defensive talent, but a great bat there and you would have a great firstbaseman. I wonder why they bother havinga golden glove for firstbasemen when defense at first means so little.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-24-2002, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
So I guess be able to dig out rushed throws from your shortstop or thirdbasemen means nothing and being able to defend the line means nothing as well. Who knew that you could stick anyone with no defensive talent, but a great bat there and you would have a great firstbaseman. I wonder why they bother havinga golden glove for firstbasemen when defense at first means so little.

Compared to 50 or 100 additional points of OPS, oh yeah, it definitely means very little.

Face it, you simply can't make up the difference with your glove--especially a firstbasemen. The position was created for behemoths who don't possess many defensive skills. In fact, the only position less defensively-challenged is the DH.

I trust I'm not breaking new ground here.

guillen4life13
11-24-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by awesomefan
It don't mean a THING if you ain't got that RING...hehehehehehehehehehe

do wah do wah do wah do wah do wah do wah do wah do wah?


Yea I actually liked Mark Grace. He was a good clubhouse leader, he stood up to Sham-Me, and he got even with the Cubs. That isn't so bad, is it?

Paulwny
11-24-2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
.
Face it, you simply can't make up the difference with your glove--especially a firstbasemen. The position was created for behemoths who don't possess many defensive skills. In fact, the only position less defensively-challenged is the DH.

I trust I'm not breaking new ground here.


Before the dh was created some players who could still hit, usually outfielders who were approaching the end of their careers, were played at 1st. It was almost considered a resting position.

FanOf14
11-24-2002, 12:37 PM
If what you are saying is true, why hasn't the NL scooped up (or shown strong interest in) Frank Thomas?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-24-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
If what you are saying is true, why hasn't the NL scooped up (or shown strong interest in) Frank Thomas?

Umm... because Frank Thomas has "DH" written all over him? :smile:

Seriously, I believe the recent public comments by Frank that he is working hard to be a firstbasemen next season are strictly a negotiating ploy hatched by his agent to garner more potential interest from National League clubs.

I don't expect Frank Thomas to be patrolling first base for anybody next year, least of all the Sox.

Vsahajpal
11-24-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by awesomefan
PaleHoseGeorge said........
Please, please, please don't start the argument that firstbasemen need to deliver superior defense a'la a Flubs fan defending Mark Grace's noodle bat.

PHG: I'm not a big Cub fan, everybody knows; but I don't understand your comment about Mark Grace's "noodle bat".

I think any team needs a superior defensive 1st baseman.

I assume "noodle bat" means....not a good hitter(offense) or do you mean not a good homerun hitter.

Since Mark Grace had the most hits of the 1990's decade, it doesn't sound to me like he had a "noodle bat".

I guess the "noodle bat" comment comes from his latter days with the Cubs, but Mark went on to be the 1st baseman on a World Series Winning team the Arizona Diamondbacks.

So now Mark is nearing the end of his career as a player & taking it all very well I think.

I really like Mark Grace since the Cubs dumped him, especially when he turned around & won a World Series ring. I love how he handled himself thru the whole ordeal by not get'n MAD but get'n EVEN........It don't mean a THING if you ain't got that RING...hehehehehehehehehehe


Grace was a glorified spray hitter. The Cubs didn't dump him, they offered him more money than AZ did, he left.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-24-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Grace was a glorified spray hitter. The Cubs didn't dump him, they offered him more money than AZ did, he left.

Well you have to admit, it worked out great for everyone. "Gracie" got a ring and Flubs fans kept their Lovable Losers streak intact.

:)

OneDog
11-24-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

As for Grace making up the difference with his glove, he would have been playing left field or third base if he had any REAL defensive talent. The firstbasemen's position was created for behemoths who do little more than get on base and hit for power. That pretty much is the entire job description.

Grace would never have been allowed by any coach worth his salt to play third because he throws left handed.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-24-2002, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by OneDog
Grace would never have been allowed by any coach worth his salt to play third because he throws left handed.

I guess we can scratch him as a catcher, too. Gee whiz, Grace's defensive assets keep looking slimmer and slimmer all the time!

It's a good thing he's only a firstbasemen. Of course his offense sucks for that position, but who's keeping track?

:)

maurice
11-25-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Tell me, who do you want to see coming to the plate in clutch situations?


Depends on who we're playing. CLee is golden against the scrubs.

:)

maurice
11-25-2002, 01:00 PM
Mark Freaking Grace?!?

- Symbol of everything wrong with cubbiedom.
- Never hit more than 17 HR.
- Never drove in 100 runs.
- .444 career SLG.
- Averaged 7 errors per season.
- Relegated Erubiel Durazo to the bench in Arizona.
- Would have made an above-average 2B if he threw right-handed.