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jeremyb1
11-21-2002, 12:25 PM
from cnn si:

Owner George Steinbrenner has ordered general manager Brian Cashman to cut last season's payroll of $125 million, which was $17 million more than the second-ranked club. Cashman has been exploring deals to move Mondesi, outfielder Rondell White, pitchers Orlando Hernandez, Sterling Hitchcock and Andy Pettitte, and catcher Jorge Posada. Pitchers Roger Clemens, Ramiro Mendoza and Mike Stanton are free agents.

New York also must decide whether to bring back free-agent third baseman Robin Ventura or find a cheaper alternative. Prospect Drew Henson does not figure in immediate plans at that position after a stunning lack of progress this year.


the yankees have tons of absolutely terrible contracts on the books in mondesi, white, and hitchcock yet people continue to argue that the yankees deserve all the titles despite their incredible payroll because they make smart moves. simply not true.

what angers me the most is that now they’re in a situation where they have to move these deals because of the new labor deal and the fact that steinbrenner finally wants a lower payroll. they should be groveling at the feet of other teams begging them to take mondesi, hitchcock, and white. they should be paying nearly all these players’ salaries in deals to move them or including prospects or other good players as an incentive to take them off their hands yet they refuse. why? they’re the yankees. unlike teams like us that had to deal players like durham and baldwin for nothing to cut costs they feel that because they’re the yankees, they’re somehow above this.

if they can’t move hitchcock, mondesi, or white they have to deal petitte, posada, or another similar player. due to these players salaries and the fact that the yanks need to cut payroll, they should not have the upperhand and should be forced to deal these players at a discounted price. but no, brian cashman has been quoted as saying he’d have to be blown away to move posada or pettitte because they’re so good. well if that’s the case, why are you trading them? despite the fact that they’re trying to cut payroll and can’t move anyone they’re about to sign matsui. incredible. there’s just no end to it.

Daver
11-21-2002, 05:04 PM
Your implication that the Yankees buy all of their talent is not true,the core of that team came from their system,Jeter,Bernie Williams,Rivera,and Soriano are a few of them,and they use their farm system to acquire Major league players.

Hate them or not,they do a good job of scouting and developing talent.

guillen4life13
11-21-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by daver
Your implication that the Yankees buy all of their talent is not true,the core of that team came from their system,Jeter,Bernie Williams,Rivera,and Soriano are a few of them,and they use their farm system to acquire Major league players.

Hate them or not,they do a good job of scouting and developing talent.

what system did jorge posada come up through?

Paulwny
11-21-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by daver
Your implication that the Yankees buy all of their talent is not true,the core of that team came from their system,Jeter,Bernie Williams,Rivera,and Soriano are a few of them,and they use their farm system to acquire Major league players.

Hate them or not,they do a good job of scouting and developing talent.

Soriano was playing ball in Japan at age 16. Everyone knew he could hit, the yankmees outbid everyone for his services. Granted, he was in the yankmee minors, but he was basically a FA out of Japan.

Paulwny
11-21-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by daver
Hate them or not,they do a good job of scouting and developing talent.

Yep, it really took an outstanding effort by their scouting staff to check out Giambi, Mussina, Clemens, Wells, Ventura, El Duque etal. Pettite is the only decent pitcher to come out of the yankmee farm in the last 10 yrs. Without the fa pitchers they wouldn't have won a thing.

Daver
11-21-2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
what system did jorge posada come up through?

He was a late round draft pick of the Yankees in 1990.

jortafan
11-21-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
what system did jorge posada come up through?

he's also a Yankee farm system product. I believe his father is a Latin America scout for the Yankees.

MarkEdward
11-21-2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Pettite is the only decent pitcher to come out of the yankmee farm in the last 10 yrs.

Mariano Rivera says hi. So does Ramiro Mendoza.

jeremyb1
11-21-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
Your implication that the Yankees buy all of their talent is not true,the core of that team came from their system,Jeter,Bernie Williams,Rivera,and Soriano are a few of them,and they use their farm system to acquire Major league players.

Hate them or not,they do a good job of scouting and developing talent.

i won’t hesitate to admit they do a very good job of developing talent but to suggest money isn’t the main reason for their success as some do is absurd. they sign more than their fair share of free agents as other has suggested: mussina, el duque, soriano, giambi, cone and o’neil a ways back. last offseason they signed the top hitter in the market in giambi (not counting bonds who is much older and was going to resign with the giants) and the offseason before that they signed the best pitcher in mussina.

more importantly, a lot of teams do a good job of developing solid talent. the yankees unlike other teams are able to resign every last one of their players. what happens if the royals, the a’s, the twins, the pirates, or a team of that nature develops derek jeter? somehow i doubt they’ll be able to pay him 17 million to hit .310 with 20 hrs. most teams also probably couldn’t afford to resign bernie williams at near 15 million a year or petitte at 10 a year.

that’s the key difference. once the yankees are able to acquire a player through trade or free agency they have that player for as long as they want that player. they never have to fear they’ll lose a player because they can’t afford him.

Daver
11-21-2002, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1


that’s the key difference. once the yankees are able to acquire a player through trade or free agency they have that player for as long as they want that player. they never have to fear they’ll lose a player because they can’t afford him.

So what you are saying is that you hate the Yankees because they run their business the way any other successful business is run?

RedPinStripes
11-21-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by daver
So what you are saying is that you hate the Yankees because they run their business the way any other successful business is run?

I think he's saying he hates them for the same reason everyone else does. ............Jealousy, Envy, what ever you want to call it. It brings out the hate in everyone when your team hasnt at least been to the series since 1959 . Yankees have won around 28 ws titles, Sox have won **** since 1917 and blew it on purpose in 1919. :(:

jeremyb1
11-21-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by daver
So what you are saying is that you hate the Yankees because they run their business the way any other successful business is run?

i hate them the same reason i'd hate a huge corporation like microsoft. do i blame them for the way they've run their team? no, of course not. if i could operate a team with a 127 million payroll, i'd sure as hell do it. however, i dislike the high and mighty attitude the yankees demonstrate at times and i don't think its fair that their payroll is more than twice ours and this allowed them to make it to the world series five years in a row. i suppose that system is the cause of the problem, but as the beneficiaries of the unjust system, i dislike the yankees.

Twins8791
11-21-2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
what happens if ... the twins ... or a team of that nature develops derek jeter?

We did. His name was Kirby Puckett.

Paulwny
11-22-2002, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Mariano Rivera says hi. So does Ramiro Mendoza.

I meant starting pitchers.
Again, these 2 players were not part of any draft. They sold their services to the highest bidder. I don't know who else was interested in them but if King George wanted them he has the $$$.
Pettite, Mendoza and Rivera won't take you to the WS. Cone, Wells, Mussina , Clemens, a healthy El Duque, etal will.
The prize starting pitcher out of the yankmee farm over the last 3 yrs was Ted Lilly, who looks like a Scott Ruffcorn clone.
The yankmee scouting staff is no better or worse then any other ave. team but they have more bucks to throw around.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-22-2002, 08:37 AM
Nobody was complaining in the 80's when in a relative way they were spending a ton of dough signing aging free agents, and all the players in their farm system were busts. They didn't win Jack!!

A guy by the name of "stick" Michaels (cub fans should remember him) was the guy that put together this scout team, that found what is now the core-Jeter, Williams, Mariano, Posada, Soriano, Nick Johnson, Pettite, and cashman did a good job of finding vets that played great roles, Soho, Cone, Girardi,O'neill, Brosus, and others.

Don't hate the Player, hate the game!!

NYSF

Paulwny
11-22-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Nobody was complaining in the 80's when in a relative way they were spending a ton of dough signing aging free agents, and all the players in their farm system were busts. They didn't win Jack!!

A guy by the name of "stick" Michaels (cub fans should remember him) was the guy that put together this scout team, that found what is now the core-Jeter, Williams, Mariano, Posada, Soriano, Nick Johnson, Pettite, and cashman did a good job of finding vets that played great roles, Soho, Cone, Girardi,O'neill, Brosus, and others.

Don't hate the Player, hate the game!!

NYSF

I've complained for a long time.
The late 50's early 60's when the yankmees were still using KC as their farm team. Trading aged players and money for players.
The 70's with Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter and Don Gullett.
I will always hate anyone in yankmee pinstripes.

Paulwny
11-22-2002, 10:41 AM
A typical yankmee/KC trade:
From the Baseball Library:
Seeking to restructure their team after finishing third in 1959, the Yankees, who had traded frequently with the Athletics in the late 1950s, obtained Roger Maris from Kansas City with Kent Hadley and Joe DeMaestri for Don Larsen, Hank Bauer, Marv Throneberry, and Norm Siebern.

jeremyb1
11-22-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Twins8791
We did. His name was Kirby Puckett.

ok. well obviously not the same. they didn't play the same position and they're nowhere near the same age. my only point was that lower revenue teams would not be able to resign derek jeter at 17 million a year (or is it even more? 19?) if they'd developed him and not the yankees. at least they wouldn't be able to do so in addition to all the other players the yanks have signed.

MarkEdward
11-22-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I meant starting pitchers.

Well, you didn't type that...

Again, these 2 players were not part of any draft. They sold their services to the highest bidder. I don't know who else was interested in them but if King George wanted them he has the $$$.

But the Yankees developed them. That's what this arguement is about. Many other teams have signed players without drafting them, and have failed in developing them.


The prize starting pitcher out of the yankmee farm over the last 3 yrs was Ted Lilly, who looks like a Scott Ruffcorn clone.

You should probably look a little closer.

The yankmee scouting staff is no better or worse then any other ave. team but they have more bucks to throw around.

Jorge Posada, Alfonso Soriano, Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte, Orlando Hernandez, Ramiro Mendoza, Randy Choate, Ted Lilly. All these player helped the Yankees to a 2001 ALCS Title. All these players developed by the Yankess.

Paulwny
11-23-2002, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

But the Yankees developed them. That's what this arguement is about. Many other teams have signed players without drafting them, and have failed in developing them.


Most teams don't have this kind of money to spend on "maybe's".
Check out the Henson, Morales section.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=12596&s=&perpage=15&pagenumber=1&display=show

Paulwny
11-23-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

But the Yankees developed them. That's what this arguement is about. Many other teams have signed players without drafting them, and have failed in developing them.


The yankmee pitching staff without FA's. over the last 5 yrs Pettie, Mendosa, Rivera, Choate, Lilly( Scott Ruffcorn) traded, Brian Boehringer, Adrian Hernandez. Can't count El Duque, he was the best pitcher in Cuba over a 5 -8 year span. These guys sure scare the hell out of me.
If the yankmees had to trade for starters, gone are players such as Jeter, Posada, Williams, etc.

Acquisitions to improve this years yankmees.,White, Mondesi, Vander Wal and Hitchcock. The yankmees are now trying to dump all of them. If KW had acquired any of them and paid them the money their getting he would be a bigger joke then he already is.

The much heralded "can't miss kids" along with Henson and Morales , Ricky Ledee, Shane Spencer and Homer Bush.

Finally the greatest yankmee acquisition of all time, the high touted, greatest pitcher from Japan, "The Nolan Ryan of Japan-- Hidecki Irabu.

The yankmees make plenty of mistakes but they're able to cover them up by spending more money on other players.

MarkEdward
11-23-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny

The yankmees make plenty of mistakes but they're able to cover them up by spending more money on other players.

Yes, the Yankees make mistakes, and it has hurt them. If you haven't been paying attention, they haven't won the Wrold Series in two years. They didn't make it out of the first round this year. That alone proves there's nothing wrong with the "system."

The Yankees also know how to trade. They acquired Homer Bush and Hideki Irabu for Ruben Rivera and a "prospect." The Yankees then traded Bush for Roger Clemens. Is it the Yankees' fault other GMs are stupid?

Paulwny
11-23-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yes, the Yankees make mistakes, and it has hurt them. If you haven't been paying attention, they haven't won the Wrold Series in two years. They didn't make it out of the first round this year. That alone proves there's nothing wrong with the "system."

The Yankees also know how to trade. They acquired Homer Bush and Hideki Irabu for Ruben Rivera and a "prospect." The Yankees then traded Bush for Roger Clemens. Is it the Yankees' fault other GMs are stupid?

Gee, they haven't won 2 WS in a row. I guess they great scouting isn't as great as some think.

Irabu would only play for the yankmees.
From The Baseball Library:
» January 12th, 1997: The San Diego Padres acquire the rights to 27-year-old Japanese fireballer Hideki Irabu from the Chiba Lotte Marines. Irabu says he only wants to play for the Yankees

» April 22nd, 1997: After 4 months of on-and-off negotiations, the Yankees acquire the rights to Japanese P Hideki Irabu from the San Diego Padres for $3 million. New York sends injured OF Ruben Rivera and minor leaguer P Rafael Medina to San Diego. The Padres sweeten the deal by sending three minor leaguers to NY: 2B Homer Bush and outfielders Gordon Amerson and Vernon Maxwell. Irabu's team, the Chiba Lotte Marines, gave the San Diego exclusive rights to the 27-year-old righthander, but Irabu refused to sign with the Padres, saying he would only go with the Yankees.


» May 29th, 1997: The Yankees finally agree to terms with Japanese pitcher Hideki Irabu, signing the fireballer to a 4-year contract worth $12.8 million. The deal includes a signing bonus of $8.5 million.

Let's get the complete Homer Bush trade correct.
From The baseball Library:
» February 18, 1999: The Yankees end the trade rumors by acquiring Cy Young Award winner Roger Clemens from the Blue Jays in exchange for pitchers David Wells and Graeme Lloyd, and IF Homer Bush.

Bush wasn't the main part of the trade as you made it out to be.

Again, the yankmee scouting staff is no better then the ave. team but can hide their mistakes with getting different players because they have the $$$.

MarkEdward
11-23-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Gee, they haven't won 2 WS in a row. I guess they great scouting isn't as great as some think.

Or there's just nothing wrong with the system.

Irabu would only play for the yankmees.

Yes, he wanted to play for New York. The Yankees didn't "buy" him.



Again, the yankmee scouting staff is no better then the ave. team but can hide their mistakes with getting different players because they have the $$$.

Posada, Soriano, Jeter, Williams, Johnson, Pettite, Mendoza, Rivera. Yeah, that scouting department sure does blow.

Paulwny
11-24-2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

Posada, Soriano, Jeter, Williams, Johnson, Pettite, Mendoza, Rivera. Yeah, that scouting department sure does blow.

Johnson is a real stretch, he's available in a trade.
The yankmees are thinking of acquiring a catcher and using Posada as a dh more often. His numbers dropped the last 1/2 of the season from the rigors of catching.
Bye, Bye, Nick Johnson, who didn't live up to the yankmee hype.
Again, without fa starting pitchers, Pettite, Mendoza and Rivera won't win the east division let alone a world series.

guillen4life13
11-24-2002, 10:14 AM
let's analyze their pitching staff:

Clemens, Mussina, and Wells all came either by FA signing or trade. These are/were awesome pitchers (especially Mussina and Clemens). How much are Clemens and the Moose making?

Paulwny
11-24-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
How much are Clemens and the Moose making?

PLAYER SALARY
Derek Jeter $14,600,000
Bernie Williams $12,357,143
Mike Mussina $11,000,000
Jason Giambi $10,428,571
Roger Clemens $10,300,000
Andy Pettitte $9,500,000
Mariano Rivera $9,450,000
Robin Ventura $8,500,000
Jorge Posada $7,000,000
Sterling Hitchcock $4,936,719
Rondell White $4,500,000
Steve Karsay $4,000,000
Orlando Hernandez $3,200,000
Orlando Hernandez $2,050,000
Ramiro Mendoza $2,600,000
Mike Stanton $2,500,000
David Wells $2,250,000
Gerald Williams $2,000,000
John Vander Wal $1,850,000
Shane Spencer $885,000
Ron Coomer $750,000
Enrique Wilson $720,000
Alberto Castillo $650,000
Alfonso Soriano $630,000
Ted Lilly $237,150
Randy Choate $223,350
Nick Johnson $220,650
Christian Parker $218,600
Randy Keisler $211,400
Jay Tessmer $210,000

FanOf14
11-24-2002, 11:02 AM
That makes my stomach turn...I wish we had a payroll of at least half of that...

MarkEdward
11-24-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Johnson is a real stretch, he's available in a trade.

So that doesn't make him a prospect?

The yankmees are thinking of acquiring a catcher and using Posada as a dh more often. His numbers dropped the last 1/2 of the season from the rigors of catching.

They're looking to trade Posada as a salary dump.

Bye, Bye, Nick Johnson, who didn't live up to the yankmee hype.

Yeah, I'm sure the Yankees are putting him on waivers right now.

By your logic, we should release Joe Borchard because he hasn't lived up to the White Sox "hype."

Again, without fa starting pitchers, Pettite, Mendoza and Rivera won't win the east division let alone a world series.

So I guess a Championship isn't legitimate unless all 25 players came from the original team.

guillen4life13
11-24-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So that doesn't make him a prospect?



They're looking to trade Posada as a salary dump.



Yeah, I'm sure the Yankees are putting him on waivers right now.

By your logic, we should release Joe Borchard because he hasn't lived up to the White Sox "hype."



So I guess a Championship isn't legitimate unless all 25 players came from the original team.

Well, let me see. I don't think a championship is legitimate unless you have an average sized payroll. I was just looking at the Yankmees salary thing that was posted. Giambi, Mussina, Jeter, and Bernie Williams make more than the 25 man payroll the Sox are striving for this coming year. Can you believe that? Yea, the Sox are a small market team, but 4 people for 47 million dollars?!? Oh Krishna!

MarkEdward
11-24-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Well, let me see. I don't think a championship is legitimate unless you have an average sized payroll. I was just looking at the Yankmees salary thing that was posted. Giambi, Mussina, Jeter, and Bernie Williams make more than the 25 man payroll the Sox are striving for this coming year. Can you believe that? Yea, the Sox are a small market team, but 4 people for 47 million dollars?!? Oh Krishna!

Yankee Championships with Jason Giambi: Zero.
Yankee Championships with Mike Mussina: Zero.
All these players sure are buying the Yankees victory after victory, huh?

By the way, the Sox are a small market team? The *Chicago* White Sox? The team from Chicago, which boasts the third largest population in the US?

guillen4life13
11-24-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yankee Championships with Jason Giambi: Zero.
Yankee Championships with Mike Mussina: Zero.
All these players sure are buying the Yankees victory after victory, huh?

By the way, the Sox are a small market team? The *Chicago* White Sox? The team from Chicago, which boasts the third largest population in the US?

At the beginning of last season, who was the favorite to win the World Series? THE ANGELS, THE ANGELS!!! The Yankees were.

100 win seasons and World Series appearances don't mean too much, do they?


Why were they the favorites? If anything didn't pan out, the Boss would trade for someone or buy them off another team a la Raul Mondesi, and Jeff Weaver. They did the same with David Justice a couple years ago. Why do they have the freedom to do that? They have such a rich guy running them who is willing to put in 135 million dollars.

The Angels are legitimate champions. Yankees? Not in the last 10 years they haven't.

Yes the Sox are a small market team because the city that boasts the third largest population in the country also boasts the Lovable Losers, who monopolize the media because the most well respected newspaper in Chicago just happens to own them. So how many people do they get in their seats to see a 65 win club? They sell out! How many people does Comiskey get on average for an 81 win team? 18,000? - less than half the capacity. so much for a big market area.

Paulwny
11-24-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yankee Championships with Jason Giambi: Zero.
Yankee Championships with Mike Mussina: Zero.
All these players sure are buying the Yankees victory after victory, huh?


Then I guess you agree that the yankmee scouting isn't as good as you think.

Paulwny
11-24-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

They're looking to trade Posada as a salary dump.
.

It'll never happen, what great prospect do they have in the minors to catch?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-24-2002, 03:35 PM
I think it has become abundantly clear that George Steinbrenner will do anything to make his Yankees champions. His championship strategy is the epitome of what I was trying to explain in an earlier post: always look for ways to upgrade your talent vs. the talent on the best teams in the league.

Of course George has to share the NY market with the Mets, same as owners in Southern California and the San Francisco Bay. While there certainly are haves and have-nots sharing these markets, there is no debate that ALL THOSE FRANCHISES have had significantly more success than the Sox in fielding champions.

I guess what it all comes down to is this: how much bull**** are you willing to swallow? Every Sox Fan has to figure that out for themselves.

Personally, I've had my fill of excuses. None of them ring true anymore, especially the whoppers the current owner has been serving us the last 20 years.

MisterB
11-24-2002, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
By the way, the Sox are a small market team? The *Chicago* White Sox? The team from Chicago, which boasts the third largest population in the US? [/B]

NY metro population is over 20 million.
LA/Orange Co. area is just over 16 mil.
Chicago metro population is under 9 mil.
The dropoff from 1st to 3rd is pretty steep.

If you consider that population divided halfsies between the Sox and Flubs, here are the teams that have 'larger' populations all to themselves:

Baltimore (including DC area)
Philadelphia
Boston
Detroit (no, really!)
Texas (Dallas/Ft. Worth)
Toronto
Houston

Throw in the NY and LA teams, the Chicago teams come out tied for 12th out of 30 teams. Not exactly small market, but in the middle of the pack.

For more info look here (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20020815zumsteg.shtml) .

PaleHoseGeorge
11-24-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
...If you consider that population divided halfsies between the Sox and Flubs, here are the teams that have 'larger' populations all to themselves...

Yes, but come on! We're competing with the Cubs here. This is a team that is five seasons away from celebrating the centennial of their last world championship, *****!

If the Sox make any effort at all, they own this town. Wasn't that the plan when JR and Eddie E. told everyone they were going to make the Sox into a first-class organization? What happened to that plan? It's been over 21 years now.

Like I said before, how much bull**** are each of us willing to swallow? After 22 seasons, JR has used up his quota with me.

Paulwny
11-24-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yes, but come on! We're competing with the Cubs here. This is a team that is five seasons away from celebrating the centennial of their last world championship, *****!

If the Sox make any effort at all, they own this town. Wasn't that the plan when JR and Eddie E. told everyone they were going to make the Sox into a first-class organization? What happened to that plan? It's been over 21 years now.

Like I said before, how much bull**** are each of us willing to swallow? After 22 seasons, JR has used up his quota with me.

Totally agree, I'll give King George kudos for never allowing the yankmees to be 2nd fiddle to the Mets and never accepting a ws appearance as an achievement. With the payroll he has it's expected to win if not his employees know heads will roll, as it should be.

Too bad playing 2nd fiddle doesn't seem to bother JR.

Gee, I can't believe I actually said something nice about the King of The Evil Empire.

MarkEdward
11-24-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
At the beginning of last season, who was the favorite to win the World Series? THE ANGELS, THE ANGELS!!! The Yankees were.

And there's a problem with that?

100 win seasons and World Series appearances don't mean too much, do they?

I never said the Yankees weren't a dynasty. My argument is that they develop very well from within.

Why were they the favorites? If anything didn't pan out, the Boss would trade for someone or buy them off another team a la Raul Mondesi, and Jeff Weaver.

That worked out well, huh?

Why do they have the freedom to do that? They have such a rich guy running them who is willing to put in 135 million dollars.

An owner putting money into his team? The absolute nerve of him!

The Angels are legitimate champions. Yankees? Not in the last 10 years they haven't.

Player developed by Angels who played in 2002 Postseason: 9 of 22. By Paul's logic, Ramon Ortiz, Benji Molina, and Francisco Rodriguez weren't developed by the Angels, only "bought."


Yes the Sox are a small market team because the city that boasts the third largest population in the country also boasts the Lovable Losers, who monopolize the media because the most well respected newspaper in Chicago just happens to own them. So how many people do they get in their seats to see a 65 win club? They sell out! How many people does Comiskey get on average for an 81 win team? 18,000? - less than half the capacity. so much for a big market area.

I know they're not large market, but small market is a stretch. I used this:
http://home.nycap.rr.com/nickandaj/marketsize.html

Paulwny
11-24-2002, 08:39 PM
Quote:
Why were they the favorites? If anything didn't pan out, the Boss would trade for someone or buy them off another team a la Raul Mondesi, and Jeff Weaver.



That worked out well, huh?


I guess that you starting to agree that the great yankmee scouting staff isn't so great, by your statement.

guillen4life13
11-24-2002, 10:12 PM
mark... here's the thing: any mistakes they make, they can reverse by spending a few million extra. what's the point of competing when your competition can do that? He monopolizes the market. Yankees fans by now probably take titles for granted. The World Series loses its value every time the Yankees win it because you know that that organization can buy off anyone they want.

MarkEdward
11-24-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Quote:
Why were they the favorites? If anything didn't pan out, the Boss would trade for someone or buy them off another team a la Raul Mondesi, and Jeff Weaver.



That worked out well, huh?


I guess that you starting to agree that the great yankmee scouting staff isn't so great, by your statement.

I was responding to the point that the Yankees just go out and buy championships. My statement had nothing to do with their scouting department, which I still think is top notch. Heck, maybe the Yanks would've gone farther if they let some of their home-grown talent play mor (Juan Rivera, Nick Johnson).

MarkEdward
11-24-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
mark... here's the thing: any mistakes they make, they can reverse by spending a few million extra.

That's already been disproven, seeing as though they haven't won the Series in two years. Sure they can fill holes easier, but that hasn't always translated to winning.

what's the point of competing when your competition can do that? He monopolizes the market.

What has he monopolized? Free agents have gone elsewhere.

Yankees fans by now probably take titles for granted.

Tell that to the Yankee fans on Baseball Primer...

The World Series loses its value every time the Yankees win it because you know that that organization can buy off anyone they want.

So by your reasoning, the World Series lost its value back in 1939, or at the end of the 1953 season.

guillen4life13
11-25-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
That's already been disproven, seeing as though they haven't won the Series in two years. Sure they can fill holes easier, but that hasn't always translated to winning.

Okay. You completely misunderstood the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to say that they have such an edge over the competition because they can spend that much money to cover up mistakes they make.


Mark said:
Originally posted by MarkEdward What has he monopolized? Free agents have gone elsewhere.[/B]

I say: Again you misunderstood my point. Why did Giambi go to NY? Was it their "winning tradition?" He may have said it was, but it's quite obvious that that fat paycheck was what sent him to the Bronx.


"Tell that to the Yankee fans on Baseball Primer..."

Okay, again you misunderstand me. Let me ask you something. When the Bulls were winning title after title, the value of those titles lessened because we became accustomed to such greatness. IMO, I would be surprised if the general population of Yankmee fans were still itching for that title as much as they were in the early '90's. I sincerely doubt the WS has the same value for them as it would for say... us.

Originally posted by MarkEdward
So by your reasoning, the World Series lost its value back in 1939, or at the end of the 1953 season. [/B]

Yet again you didn't understand me, or I should have articulated further. In the last 6 years (since 1997), the Yankees have won 4 titles, and have seriously competed for it for one of the years they didn't win. They've made the playoffs for pretty much the last 10 years without any break in the streak. If they don't at least take making the playoffs for granted, I would be extremely shocked. I'm sure the way they think is the way we thought when the Bulls were great.
"Yeah, once we make the playoffs, chances are we'll be playing Orlando." is how most Chicagoans that I knew thought. It wasn't, "Yeah, IF we make the playoffs..."

That's what I meant by value of the World Series. And people start to stop watching baseball because they know that the Yankees are at such an advantage that the amount of competition in the game dwindles a lot.

MarkEdward
11-26-2002, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Okay. You completely misunderstood the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to say that they have such an edge over the competition because they can spend that much money to cover up mistakes they make.

I fully understand you, and here's my point: Even though they can "buy" players to cover mistakes, they're still not winning Series after Series. So while I somewhat agree that they can cover up mistakes easier, it doesn't give them a better shot at winning.

I say: Again you misunderstood my point. Why did Giambi go to NY? Was it their "winning tradition?" He may have said it was, but it's quite obvious that that fat paycheck was what sent him to the Bronx.

Um, source? It's obvious to me that Giambi went to the Yankees because of their winning tradition. And since Jason said the same thing, who are we to question him (unless you have some inside knowledge)?

Okay, again you misunderstand me. Let me ask you something. When the Bulls were winning title after title, the value of those titles lessened because we became accustomed to such greatness.

I think it gave the title more significance. Dynasties make title runs more interesting. Teams strive to defeat greatness. Fans watch to see behemoths tumble.

Now from a Chicago fan perspective, you're telling me there wasn't a party in Grant Park after the sixth Title?

IMO, I would be surprised if the general population of Yankmee fans were still itching for that title as much as they were in the early '90's. I sincerely doubt the WS has the same value for them as it would for say... us.

Well, I can show you plenty of proof of bitter Yankee fans after this year's playoff run.

I'm pretty sure Yankee fans savor each Championship like it was their first.

If they don't at least take making the playoffs for granted, I would be extremely shocked.

Please prove me otherwise, and I'll gladly concede the point.

That's what I meant by value of the World Series. And people start to stop watching baseball because they know that the Yankees are at such an advantage that the amount of competition in the game dwindles a lot.

People didn't stop watching back in 1939, when the Yankees won their fourth Title in a row, or in 1953, when they won their fifth Title in a row. Heck, from 1998 to 2000 the Yankees won three Titles in a row, and people haven't stopped watching.

guillen4life13
11-26-2002, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I fully understand you, and here's my point: Even though they can "buy" players to cover mistakes, they're still not winning Series after Series. So while I somewhat agree that they can cover up mistakes easier, it doesn't give them a better shot at winning.



Um, source? It's obvious to me that Giambi went to the Yankees because of their winning tradition. And since Jason said the same thing, who are we to question him (unless you have some inside knowledge)?



I think it gave the title more significance. Dynasties make title runs more interesting. Teams strive to defeat greatness. Fans watch to see behemoths tumble.

Now from a Chicago fan perspective, you're telling me there wasn't a party in Grant Park after the sixth Title?



Well, I can show you plenty of proof of bitter Yankee fans after this year's playoff run.

I'm pretty sure Yankee fans savor each Championship like it was their first.



Please prove me otherwise, and I'll gladly concede the point.



People didn't stop watching back in 1939, when the Yankees won their fourth Title in a row, or in 1953, when they won their fifth Title in a row. Heck, from 1998 to 2000 the Yankees won three Titles in a row, and people haven't stopped watching.

i concede. I don't agree with you, but you've countered all of my arguments, and I don't have sources as much as knowledge of general human nature.

For Giambi, I just think he should have stayed in Oakland and stayed loyal to the A's, who were were already a damn good team. But that's not a proven fact. I gotta go to bed now, but I think you see where I'm coming from and I see where you're coming from.

P.S. Yea there was a rally in Grant Park. I'm gonna use the fifth title as a better example here because for the 6th, the breakup of the team was inevitable. The 5th title probably didn't have the same significance as the 1st, 4th or 6th.

Good night.