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HawkDJ
11-18-2002, 05:41 PM
Depending on what Frank Thomas decides to do, Chicago will either trade Carlos Lee or move him into the DH slot. Thomas has a month to explore the free-agent market before he has to decide whether he wants to return to the White Sox and that decision will impact everything Chicago does. If Thomas leaves, relieving the team of a long-term financial commitment, Jerry Reinsdorf might be more willing to let GM Kenny Williams pursue a high priced starter to go with the team's talented kids. If Thomas returns, look for the Sox to deal Lee for pitching. And don't believe the rumors that the Sox are considering moving Keith Foulke into the rotation. First of all, they already have too many unproven starters. Secondly, it seems unlikely that they would enter the season with Damaso Marte as their primary closer. It could happen, but only if the Sox fail to land another starter.

rmusacch
11-18-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2


I think they will regret the day they trade Carlos Lee. He is going to be a good one.

OneDog
11-18-2002, 10:32 PM
I don't see the Sox getting a whole lot out of Lee. Don't get me wrong, I love watching him as the greatest Cub killer of them all, but he doesn't get the job done anywhere else. He's terrible in the field and he strikes out way too much. If Borchard is as great as everyone says he is, then Lee is probably the most expendable of all the Sox OF.

Tragg
11-18-2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
I think they will regret the day they trade Carlos Lee. He is going to be a good one.

I tend to agree.

Anyway, who plays left field for us? Center field? Doesn't appear to me we have an excess of outfielders.

MarkEdward
11-18-2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by OneDog
I don't see the Sox getting a whole lot out of Lee. Don't get me wrong, I love watching him as the greatest Cub killer of them all, but he doesn't get the job done anywhere else. He's terrible in the field and he strikes out way too much. If Borchard is as great as everyone says he is, then Lee is probably the most expendable of all the Sox OF.

Are you suggesting the Sox trade Magglio Ordonez? Because he struck out more than Lee and walked less than Lee last year. And what great advantages does Aaron Rowand have over Lee?

Tragg
11-18-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Are you suggesting the Sox trade Magglio Ordonez? Because he struck out more than Lee and walked less than Lee last year. And what great advantages does Aaron Rowand have over Lee?


Lee started walking toward the middle of last year, and did a good job of it. Rowand is mediocre. Borchard? Okay, but hell we sat him on the bench most of September. Now the Kenny Manuel decides he's an every day major leaguer? I don't get that logic.

Lip Man 1
11-18-2002, 11:08 PM
Mark asks:

And what great advantages does Aaron Rowand have over Lee?

Well for one thing he doesn't try to steal 3rd base with less then two outs and the tying run at the plate! (El Stupido Lee has made that boneheaded decision THREE times in the past two years...)

Lip

jeremyb1
11-19-2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by OneDog
I don't see the Sox getting a whole lot out of Lee. Don't get me wrong, I love watching him as the greatest Cub killer of them all, but he doesn't get the job done anywhere else. He's terrible in the field and he strikes out way too much. If Borchard is as great as everyone says he is, then Lee is probably the most expendable of all the Sox OF.

haha. if you're upset that carlos struck out 70 times last year or whatever it was you won't figure to be a very big joe borchard fan.

Jjav829
11-19-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by OneDog
I don't see the Sox getting a whole lot out of Lee. Don't get me wrong, I love watching him as the greatest Cub killer of them all, but he doesn't get the job done anywhere else. He's terrible in the field and he strikes out way too much. If Borchard is as great as everyone says he is, then Lee is probably the most expendable of all the Sox OF.

He struck out 73 times, while walking 75. If you don't like 73 strikeouts, then here are some players you definately wouldn't want... Alfonso Soriano-157 K's (also a bad fielder), Troy Glaus- 144 K's, Jim Thome- 139 K's, Arod- 122 K's, the list goes on with the likes out Eric Chavez, Giamib, Beltran, Jacque Jones, Hinske, Posada, Thomas, Jeter, etc. all having more K's.

And like jeremy said, you wont like Borchard either cause he will strike out a lot more than Lee.

bc2k
11-19-2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by OneDog
I don't see the Sox getting a whole lot out of Lee. Don't get me wrong, I love watching him as the greatest Cub killer of them all, but he doesn't get the job done anywhere else. He's terrible in the field and he strikes out way too much. If Borchard is as great as everyone says he is, then Lee is probably the most expendable of all the Sox OF.

I'm sick of Sox fans ripping on Carlos Lee's defense. He made great strides after the 2001 season and in 2002 lost his defensive liability form. Notice in early 2002 Rowand replaced Carlos in left late in games. Carlos soon proved to his manager how adequate his defense was. Manuel stopped replacing Lee for Rowand after about a month. Lee added a nice sliding catch towards the foul line to his repertoire for the 2002 season. He was robbing home runs last year. He got much better reads on balls in 2002 than in 2001. He is not a gold glove caliber player but he, in my mind, has shed that defensive liability stigma. The worst part of his defense is his arm strength.

The way I have seen Lee progress defensively and progress with his plate patience/recognition of the strike zone, he's one of two Sox players I'm looking forward to see how they continue to progress in the 2003 season. The other is Dan Wright who for some reason is still thought upon as behind Jon Garland.

Reputations can change. People can shed labels.

doublem23
11-19-2002, 04:52 AM
When you're horrible, and you make strides to, terrible, that's not justification for keeping El Caballo around.

Lee is a defensive liability and will remain one for the rest of his career. He's nothing spectacular, and I'm getting a little tired of Sox fans getting attached to mediocre players and then thinking that slight progress shown is the sign of better days to come. If Carlos is still as bad as he is in left field after what? Three seasons out there? Yeah, he's not going to get much better.

And yes, whether or not you like to believe it, Garland is still ahead of Wright.

RichH55
11-19-2002, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mark asks:

And what great advantages does Aaron Rowand have over Lee?

Well for one thing he doesn't try to steal 3rd base with less then two outs and the tying run at the plate! (El Stupido Lee has made that boneheaded decision THREE times in the past two years...)

Lip


You use intelligence as a trump for Rowand over Lee? :?: How long ago was the dirt bike incident? I think that trumps stealing 3rd at inopportune times

RichH55
11-19-2002, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I'm sick of Sox fans ripping on Carlos Lee's defense. He made great strides after the 2001 season and in 2002 lost his defensive liability form. Notice in early 2002 Rowand replaced Carlos in left late in games. Carlos soon proved to his manager how adequate his defense was. Manuel stopped replacing Lee for Rowand after about a month. Lee added a nice sliding catch towards the foul line to his repertoire for the 2002 season. He was robbing home runs last year. He got much better reads on balls in 2002 than in 2001. He is not a gold glove caliber player but he, in my mind, has shed that defensive liability stigma. The worst part of his defense is his arm strength.

The way I have seen Lee progress defensively and progress with his plate patience/recognition of the strike zone, he's one of two Sox players I'm looking forward to see how they continue to progress in the 2003 season. The other is Dan Wright who for some reason is still thought upon as behind Jon Garland.

Reputations can change. People can shed labels.

Wow I think I actually agree with alot of what you say here...of course its nearly 4:30 am, but still...very nice...take off those Frank blinders and you can make some nice points(I will now put my blinders about Moyer back on:))

RichH55
11-19-2002, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
When you're horrible, and you make strides to, terrible, that's not justification for keeping El Caballo around.

Lee is a defensive liability and will remain one for the rest of his career. He's nothing spectacular, and I'm getting a little tired of Sox fans getting attached to mediocre players and then thinking that slight progress shown is the sign of better days to come. If Carlos is still as bad as he is in left field after what? Three seasons out there? Yeah, he's not going to get much better.

And yes, whether or not you like to believe it, Garland is still ahead of Wright.

Correct me if I'm wrong here....Carlos was mainly a 3B in the minors, correct? Well I doubt he is going to win a gold glove(ever, ever) did he not make strides this year in almost every area of his game, including defense? How important is defense in LF? Having watched quite a few ballgames this last few seasons, I don't see alot of great fielders out in LF, do you? Who would you consider the best LF at defense(regular player)? It would seem to me that LF is not a place to make a stand for defense

34 Inch Stick
11-19-2002, 10:42 AM
Talk about getting attached to mediocre ballplayers... I still think Lyle Mouton is going to have a bust out season one of these days.

doublem23
11-19-2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Correct me if I'm wrong here....Carlos was mainly a 3B in the minors, correct? Well I doubt he is going to win a gold glove(ever, ever) did he not make strides this year in almost every area of his game, including defense? How important is defense in LF? Having watched quite a few ballgames this last few seasons, I don't see alot of great fielders out in LF, do you? Who would you consider the best LF at defense(regular player)? It would seem to me that LF is not a place to make a stand for defense

No, you're right, left field is possibly the least defensive position, however, that does not write a player a blank check to suck and say, "Hey! It's all right... He's just a left fielder."

In Carlos's case, he's had his opprotunities to prove himself an adequate MLB player and he has time and time again not overwhelmingly proven himself. I think he'll be around another year, but when Borchard is ready, if anyone on the Sox had brains, Borchard and Maggs would be your corner outfielders and they'd find someone to man center.

Yes, Carlos is better defensively than he was in 1999, 2000, and 2001... That still doesn't mean he's good, however.

jeremyb1
11-19-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
When you're horrible, and you make strides to, terrible, that's not justification for keeping El Caballo around.

Lee is a defensive liability and will remain one for the rest of his career. He's nothing spectacular, and I'm getting a little tired of Sox fans getting attached to mediocre players and then thinking that slight progress shown is the sign of better days to come. If Carlos is still as bad as he is in left field after what? Three seasons out there? Yeah, he's not going to get much better.



carlos lee is an above average hitter. he may not be an above average baserunner or defender but if he was playing dh which is the most natural position for him, his defense would not be such an issue. since the game is largely offense and he could even play at a position in which he doesn't have to field this most definately makes him an above average player. "mediocre" or average players do not reach the major leagues at 23 and then proceed to hit .293 16 84 in 127 games followed up by .301 24 92 and then an even stronger first half to begin the '01 season. people are incredibly upset that we may lose frank thomas even though he had one productive season out of the last five. although clearly frank produced better than carlos did in his first two and a half seasons and for longer, the situation is not that different. both players are still very capable of being excellent hitters again and as such they shouldn't be tossed aside for nothing. carlos lee had an .843 ops last season including .928 in the second half. by comparison, maggs career ops is .885 and konerko who we just signed to a huge deal had an ops of .857 last season only slightly better than carlos despite the fact that he hit .240 in the first half. why we would trade carlos for a mediocre veteran pitcher because he's not going to win a gold glove in leftfield anytime soon is beyond me. a lot of fans seem to have developed a grudge against carlos because they find certain miscues he's made in the field and on the basepaths to be particularly frustrating. that's fine but its no reason to let your emotion cloud your judgement. good hitting leads to wins that we will not obtain with joe borchard hitting .250 and striking out in excess of 150 times.

ozzman
11-19-2002, 02:38 PM
amen to that, keep caballo

hold2dibber
11-19-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
carlos lee is an above average hitter. he may not be an above average baserunner or defender but if he was playing dh which is the most natural position for him, his defense would not be such an issue. since the game is largely offense and he could even play at a position in which he doesn't have to field this most definately makes him an above average player. "mediocre" or average players do not reach the major leagues at 23 and then proceed to hit .293 16 84 in 127 games followed up by .301 24 92 and then an even stronger first half to begin the '01 season. people are incredibly upset that we may lose frank thomas even though he had one productive season out of the last five. although clearly frank produced better than carlos did in his first two and a half seasons and for longer, the situation is not that different. both players are still very capable of being excellent hitters again and as such they shouldn't be tossed aside for nothing. carlos lee had an .843 ops last season including .928 in the second half. by comparison, maggs career ops is .885 and konerko who we just signed to a huge deal had an ops of .857 last season only slightly better than carlos despite the fact that he hit .240 in the first half. why we would trade carlos for a mediocre veteran pitcher because he's not going to win a gold glove in leftfield anytime soon is beyond me. a lot of fans seem to have developed a grudge against carlos because they find certain miscues he's made in the field and on the basepaths to be particularly frustrating. that's fine but its no reason to let your emotion cloud your judgement. good hitting leads to wins that we will not obtain with joe borchard hitting .250 and striking out in excess of 150 times.

If they trade Lee for "a mediocre veteran pitcher" would be a huge mistake. And I, for one, largely agree with your assesment of Lee. However, that same assessment makes me think he would have some serious value in trade talks. I wouldn't trade him for a mediocre veteran. I would trade him for Bartolo Colon or someone else who is a legitimate top of the rotation starter. I would hate to do it and would be awfully nervous that Lee would go on to a great career elsewhere, but the Sox would still have enough offense with Thomas, PK, Maggs, Crede, Jose, etc., and they desperately need a good pitcher.

hold2dibber
11-19-2002, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
And yes, whether or not you like to believe it, Garland is still ahead of Wright.

I think that is an open question. If you look at the stats for the year, they're awfully comparable, with a slight edge to Garland. But if you look at each start, you'll see that Wright had, IMHO, more great starts and showed more flashes of brilliance than Garland. On the other hand, he self destructed more often than Garland, too. My guess is that Garland will develop into a good, solid starter, maybe in the Kevin Tapani type of mold. Wright, on the other hand, could turn into a top notch starter or he could flame out and never get any better or more consistent than he is now.

Garland/Wright 2002 comparison (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section2=null&statSet2=null&statType=2&sortByStat=IP&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2002&baseballScope=AL&prevPage2=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=cha&box2=XXXX216106chaX&box3=XXXX279782chaX&compare.x=31&compare.y=3)

oldcomiskey
11-19-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by ozzman
amen to that, keep caballo

hell with that--we lose caballo-----who do you trade to get a good pitcher--if he says Manos Im gonna scream

idseer
11-19-2002, 05:01 PM
i'm on lee's side too for at last one more season look.
i don't think you can get enough for him to make the trade worthwhile at this point.

FarmerAndy
11-19-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
hell with that--we lose caballo-----who do you trade to get a good pitcher--if he says Manos Im gonna scream

Manos? Who would trade a good pitcher for a utility player? Unless you were totally overstocked with good pitchers and needed a good hitter on your bench, but I don't know any team that is overstocked with good pitching.


I like Carlos Lee, and I believe he is going to become an even better hitter. A few years down the road I might even say "I wish we still had him." But right now this team needs quality pitching, and if Carlos Lee can get us a good pitcher, well then good luck wherever you may go Carlos.

People can argue all they want, but the White Sox have been going with this idea of big offense and taking a chance on the "young arms" for quite awhile now, and it doesn't work.

This team needs to put together a solid pitching staff with more than one proven starter and have solid defense at SS, 2B, CF, and behind the plate.

Lip Man 1
11-19-2002, 07:23 PM
Rich 55 asks (and there's NO truth to the rumor that he's president of the Jamie Moyer fan club!):

You use intelligence as a trump for Rowand over Lee? How long ago was the dirt bike incident? I think that trumps stealing 3rd at inopportune times

Well yes when it comes to BASEBALL intelligence. At least Rowand doesn't get himself picked off, make stupid baserunning mistakes or as I stated try to steal 3rd base with less then two outs THREE UNSUCCESSFUL TIMES. (Which brings up a question about Manager Gandhi's ability to bench someone for making REPEATED mistakes.) Rowand also seems to be able to bunt, which seems like a foreign language to "The Butcher."

That being said I don't think Rowand is the answer either, he's a nice utility 4th outfielder on a good team, nothing more.

Lip

Jerry_Manuel
11-19-2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Well yes when it comes to BASEBALL intelligence. At least Rowand doesn't get himself picked off, make stupid baserunning mistakes or as I stated try to steal 3rd base with less then two outs THREE UNSUCCESSFUL TIMES. (Which brings up a question about Manager Gandhi's ability to bench someone for making REPEATED mistakes.)

Don't worry, Lip.

Bruce Kimm is here to teach baserunning.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-20-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
carlos lee is an above average hitter. he may not be an above average baserunner or defender but if he was playing dh which is the most natural position for him, his defense would not be such an issue. since the game is largely offense and he could even play at a position in which he doesn't have to field this most definately makes him an above average player. "mediocre" or average players do not reach the major leagues at 23 and then proceed to hit .293 16 84 in 127 games followed up by .301 24 92 and then an even stronger first half to begin the '01 season. people are incredibly upset that we may lose frank thomas even though he had one productive season out of the last five. although clearly frank produced better than carlos did in his first two and a half seasons and for longer, the situation is not that different. both players are still very capable of being excellent hitters again and as such they shouldn't be tossed aside for nothing. carlos lee had an .843 ops last season including .928 in the second half. by comparison, maggs career ops is .885 and konerko who we just signed to a huge deal had an ops of .857 last season only slightly better than carlos despite the fact that he hit .240 in the first half. why we would trade carlos for a mediocre veteran pitcher because he's not going to win a gold glove in leftfield anytime soon is beyond me. a lot of fans seem to have developed a grudge against carlos because they find certain miscues he's made in the field and on the basepaths to be particularly frustrating. that's fine but its no reason to let your emotion cloud your judgement. good hitting leads to wins that we will not obtain with joe borchard hitting .250 and striking out in excess of 150 times.



Jeremy
I am sure you made some great points, but I can't read one giant paragraph. Oh by the way how is Lyle Mouton.

NYSF

NewyorkSoxFan
11-20-2002, 04:57 PM
Seriously,

It would be a mistake to get rid of him yet. He is a typical Latin player, and it takes time for them to develop, especially discipline at the plate. However he is a moron on the base paths that cannot be denied.

He really improved in his walks this season, and cut down his strike outs. He got caught up in trying to hit homeruns in 2001, and I think it hurt his swing. He was a very good rbi guy his first season so he has the potential. I think he sees mags, Paulie, and he wants to get his.

His stroke is really more like Franks, a line drive hitter with power. (I am sure that one will get a response) He isn't the hitter Frank has been but he can be a 40 double guy, with 30-35 hrs eventually. Don't give up on him yet!!!


NYSF

voodoochile
11-20-2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Jeremy
I am sure you made some great points, but I can't read one giant paragraph.

Out of curiousity, why not?

NewyorkSoxFan
11-20-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Out of curiousity, why not?

I guess the same reason I root for a team that hasn't been to a World Series in my lifetime. Thick skulled I guess.

NYSF

voodoochile
11-20-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I guess the same reason I root for a team that hasn't been to a World Series in my lifetime. Thick skulled I guess.

NYSF

well, at least we agree on that point...

Nellie_Fox
11-20-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
carlos lee is an above average hitter....people are incredibly upset that we may lose frank thomas even though he had one productive season out of the last five.... I am sick to death of people saying that unless Frank puts up MVP type numbers it's not a "productive season" while (as here) you argue that Lee is above average with numbers that are not as good as some of Frank's seasons you consider to be unproductive. At least be consistent. And capitalize the start of your sentences; one huge paragraph in all lower case is very hard to read.

Frank's last 5 years:

1998 .265 29 109 OBP .381 SLG .480 average down, power numbers pretty good

1999 .305 15 77 OBP .414 SLG .471 average up, power numbers down.

2000 .328 43 143 OBP .436 SLG .625 MVP numbers

2001 For all intents and purposes missed entire year.

2002 .258 28 92 OBP .361 SLG .472 Rather Lee-like numbers.

Lee's last 4:

1999 .293 16 84 OBP .312 SLG .463 not as good as Frank.

2000.301 24 92 OBP .345 SLG .484 not anwhere near as good as Frank.

2001 .269 24 84 OBP .321 SLG .468 no Frank to compare to.

2002 .264 26 80 OBP .359 SLG .484 Pretty much the same as Frank.

So what do we have? Frank better or the same in all but the year he was hurt, but to you this is Frank being non-productive and Lee above average.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-20-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
well, at least we agree on that point...

Sure you do, youre here with the rest of us...

Daver
11-20-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


So what do we have? Frank better or the same in all but the year he was hurt, but to you this is Frank being non-productive and Lee above average.

It's a variation of the pack up QB syndrome,the second string QB always seems to be a fan favorite.

Trade Lee for pitching and move on.

Jjav829
11-20-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I am sick to death of people saying that unless Frank puts up MVP type numbers it's not a "productive season" while (as here) you argue that Lee is above average with numbers that are not as good as some of Frank's seasons you consider to be unproductive. At least be consistent. And capitalize the start of your sentences; one huge paragraph in all lower case is very hard to read.

So what do we have? Frank better or the same in all but the year he was hurt, but to you this is Frank being non-productive and Lee above average.

Ummm, maybe Im misunderstanding what you said, and If I am just tell me and you can forget what I say.

Your surprised because Frank's numbers are better than Lee's but yet people say that Frank had a bad season and Carlos had an above average season? This has always been the case with any player. If Arod hits 30 HR's in a season, hes considered to have had an underachieving season. If Frank Catalanotto hits 30 HR's hes considered to have had a great season! A player sets their owns standards and those are the standards that they are held to, like it or not. Thats why to this day Im still surprised why so many people were so shocked by Royce Clayton's production. He performed at his career 162 game averages. Frank has set the bar high for himself. So he is expected to perform at a high level. Lee has not set the bar as high, so his expectations are a lot lower. This isn't exactly a new thing. It happens all the time and on every team.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-20-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by daver
It's a variation of the pack up QB syndrome,the second string QB always seems to be a fan favorite.

Trade Lee for pitching and move on.


I agree with your analogy, but really what kind of pitching are you gonna get for Carlos. He is far more valuable to us, that moving him for some prospect or mediocre bullpen pitcher.

NYSF

Jjav829
11-20-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
hell with that--we lose caballo-----who do you trade to get a good pitcher--if he says Manos Im gonna scream

If he says Manos im gonna laugh. You actually expect to get good pitching by trading him? Ehh, sorry, it's not happening.

Daver
11-20-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree with your analogy, but really what kind of pitching are you gonna get for Carlos. He is far more valuable to us, that moving him for some prospect or mediocre bullpen pitcher.

NYSF

He has little value alone,but the right package deal could be made, in all reality he is a platoon LFer that shares the spot with Jeff Liefer,who will get more playing time next year because he whined about not playing much this season.

Some things never change.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-20-2002, 06:23 PM
Well I would rather put leifer in a package to Japan, because that's where he will become the new "GODZILLA".


NYSF

jeremyb1
11-20-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy

I like Carlos Lee, and I believe he is going to become an even better hitter. A few years down the road I might even say "I wish we still had him." But right now this team needs quality pitching, and if Carlos Lee can get us a good pitcher, well then good luck wherever you may go Carlos.

People can argue all they want, but the White Sox have been going with this idea of big offense and taking a chance on the "young arms" for quite awhile now, and it doesn't work.


well in '93 we rode bere and fernandez, young guys that we developed, and alvarez a young guy we traded for all the way to the alcs. we very well may have won the world series with those players in '94 if not for the strike. i don't think it was a poor strategy at that time. in '00 we won 95 games behind three strong seasons from home grown pitchers in baldwin, sirotka, and parque. it think its ridiculous to say that young pitching hasn't been successful for us in the past. we have a 23 year old starter who won 19 games last year. not many teams can boast that. we just traded away a damn good starter to pittsburg and they couldn't be more thrilled with him there. we have a pitcher who has been above average two seasons in a row in garland and he will turn 23 this season. expecting to call up pitchers and for all of them to immediately pitch like veterans and lead this team to the series is obviously ridiculous. however, far and away the best way to attain good starting pitching is to develop it yourself. look at oakland. if you were to attempt to acquire three pitchers of that calliber you'd have to pay each of them 15 million a year. oakland still has all of them under contract for at least three more years as it is and they won't have to pay that much money through arbitration.

as for dealing carlos for a good pitcher i don't think it'll happen. while in theory all general managers should know about things such as on base percentage, some gms are stupid and even if they're aware of the value of obp, its difficult to sell a guy to a gm by touting his walk total as his number one feature. not everyone is as smart as billy bean so a lot of gms just don't get it. also, while it probably shouldn't be, carlos' value is still down. he's hardly improve on his power numbers in recent year for a guy who was thought capable of hitting 40 hrs at one point and his average was still just .260 last season far lower than the .300 average he carried in his first two seasons. especially with all the talk of his defensive and baserunning lapses and his relatively sizable salary in such a harsh economic climate i think carlos is the epitome of a player who you simply can't get fair value for on the open trade market. if we could trade carlos for colon tommorow would i do it? i suppose so yeah, i think you'd have to. however, more likely they'd ask for something like carlos, rauch, and honel and that's just far too steep. you need to find the best value and in this market its definately free agents considering how much of a buyers market its become. i'd rather pay ismael valdes, omar daal, or robert person 2 or 3 million a year to be a below average number two starter than trade away a ton of talent for one year of colon.

jeremyb1
11-20-2002, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I am sick to death of people saying that unless Frank puts up MVP type numbers it's not a "productive season" while (as here) you argue that Lee is above average with numbers that are not as good as some of Frank's seasons you consider to be unproductive. At least be consistent. And capitalize the start of your sentences; one huge paragraph in all lower case is very hard to read.

So what do we have? Frank better or the same in all but the year he was hurt, but to you this is Frank being non-productive and Lee above average.

obviously productive was not the best word. at least 3 of the last 5 seasons were still good seasons in general and by no means am i suggesting that carlos is or will be better than frank. however, its ridiculous to hold all other factors constant. we're not in a vacuum. frank thomas makes ten million dollars next year and for the next 3 years after that and carlos makes 4 million next year and possibly less in '04. also, frank is 34 years old and carlos is 26. these facts aren't irrelevant, they're of the utmost importance. there is a ton of money left on frank's deal. if frank leaves that's ten million a year through '06 that we gain. i love frank thomas and i think he'll bounce back but if you offered me maddux and carlos or frank, i'd probably go with maddux and carlos with maddux's age the only thing giving me pause.

i'm merely trying to look at frank's future potential from a more objective point of view than we'd otherwise tend to look at it as sox fans who appreciate the numbers he's put up over the years. i would agree that his '98, '99, and even '02 numbers are good numbers in a general sense of the term yet if carlos lee and paul konerko could put up similar numbers for a fraction of frank's salary, you have to ask yourself, in todays economic climate with all the offense there is, is it worth paying 10 million a year for a guy who can't put up an ops above .900? i mean maybe it is. they're still good numbers but 10 million is a lot of money.

i also agree that injuries have come into play, but once a player turns 34 and has two legitimate injuries, you have to chalk it up to luck at some point. its not grant hill's fault he had to sit out more than two seasons because of a bad ankle but at the same time would i want to invest my future in the chance that it won't happen again just because he's not to blame?

if it were up to me, i'd choose for frank to come back because he's one of my favorite players and always has been and i think he can help this team. also, there's no guarantee that the mone we saved from his deal would really be put to use to help the team a great deal. however, all i'm saying here is that i can understand why some people don't have a huge problem with frank leaving. we have a very solid ballclub even without him. paully, maggs, crede, and carlos are pretty solid hitters and ten million in payroll flexibility is a huge deal in today's game. if i were a gm and my job was on the line, i don't think i'd pay frank a great deal of money because its a risk. while i'm optimistic that frank can put up a season like '00 next year he will be 35 so theoretically his best days are behind him. its definately not a sure thing.

Daver
11-20-2002, 08:05 PM
Hmmm,Barry Bonds just won an MVP award,and how old is he?

Frank's salary is as much a reward for the accomplishments he acheived as a younger,underpaid player,as much as it is for what he has yet to accomplish,so basing it on payroll is moot.

Comparing Carlos Lee to Frank Thomas is liking comparing a Buick to a Porsche.

jeremyb1
11-20-2002, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by daver
Hmmm,Barry Bonds just won an MVP award,and how old is he?

Frank's salary is as much a reward for the accomplishments he acheived as a younger,underpaid player,as much as it is for what he has yet to accomplish,so basing it on payroll is moot.

Comparing Carlos Lee to Frank Thomas is liking comparing a Buick to a Porsche.

i say in the post i expect frank to have future success. insisting that because one player has had a lot of success that all other players will employs terrible logic. i agree that frank could continue to have success and that these days players continue tend to have success later in their careers than in the past. however, most players don't produce as well after 35 as they do when they're around 28-30. that's a fact of life. sports players in general don't improve as they approach 40.

saying that frank's salary is a reward for his play so its irrelevant is also a pretty extreme statement. frank thomas is one of my absolute favorite baseball players. when he's hitting well he's one of the best hitters i've ever seen. i'd love to see him finish his career in a white sox uniform, but if frank doesn't hit, paying him 10 million dollars a year is going to cost this team a lot of wins. i love frank thomas and i'd love to "reward" him but not at the expense of winning baseball games and potentially a world series if it comes down to that. if it ever came down to it, putting rewarding frank over the teams success just isn't acceptable to me.

at no point have i compared frank to carlos in terms of their value as players. i merely contrasted peoples attitudes towards the two players. their both dh type players who provide above average offense for this team in the middle of the lineup, they both had relatively similar numbers last season, they both finished strongly, and they both have the potential to have excellent seasons next year. given those similarities, i can't understand how some people are outraged at the possibility of giving away a player like frank for nothing yet beg for the opportunity to trade frank for a song. that doesn't mean i think they're equal in terms of ability.

maurice
11-21-2002, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
paying him 10 million dollars a year is going to cost this team a lot of wins.

So you're saying that they should sell the Porsche and buy three Buicks? That might be a smart move for a team with good but thrifty management (e.g., Oakland), but JR is sure to pocket the cash and blame the fans. I'd rather see Frank in a Sox uni.

jeremyb1
11-21-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by maurice
So you're saying that they should sell the Porsche and buy three Buicks? That might be a smart move for a team with good but thrifty management (e.g., Oakland), but JR is sure to pocket the cash and blame the fans. I'd rather see Frank in a Sox uni.

ok. considering that i said "if frank doesn't hit, paying him 10 million dollars a year is going to cost this team a lot of wins." and you quoted me as saying only "paying him 10 million dollars a year is going to cost this team a lot of wins. you really took my statement out of context. my comment was that if frank could ever end up in a position like greg vaughn in tampa, hampton until recently, or bonilla a few years ago where hes being payed an exhorbitant amount of money and not contributing anything to the team, that will hurt the team in a major way. im not saying this would happen only that its not out of the realm of possibilities and if it did happen, it would be a bad situation for the team. accusing me of saying anything else is putting words in my mouth.

jeremyb1
11-21-2002, 01:06 PM
[i]Depending on what Frank Thomas decides to do, Chicago will either trade Carlos Lee or move him into the DH slot. Thomas has a month to explore the free-agent market before he has to decide whether he wants to return to the White Sox and that decision will impact everything Chicago does. If Thomas leaves, relieving the team of a long-term financial commitment, Jerry Reinsdorf might be more willing to let GM Kenny Williams pursue a high priced starter to go with the team's talented kids. If Thomas returns, look for the Sox to deal Lee for pitching. And don't believe the rumors that the Sox are considering moving Keith Foulke into the rotation. First of all, they already have too many unproven starters. Secondly, it seems unlikely that they would enter the season with Damaso Marte as their primary closer. It could happen, but only if the Sox fail to land another starter.


i finally ran into this passage on the sporting news site and i noticed that its only by kevin wheeler, a fantasy analyst. not that that immediately discredits him as i appretiate fantasy baseball and analysis a great deal, but sometimes, fantasy analysts just seem to pull facts out of thin air. for instance, if hed followed the sox closely he woudlnt even waste time addressing the possibility of foulke in the rotation since manuel has definatively said foulke will not be in the rotation next season. i havent heard rostenthal, nightengale, gammons, rogers, or anyone else mention that well trade carlos if frank returns so id take it with a grain of salt.

thepaulbowski
11-21-2002, 10:11 PM
While sitting in my left field seats, with my cold miller lite in my hands, I have grown tired on Mr. Lee not hustling to the ball. He's afraid to get dirty and pulls up short on many balls that could be caught. As bad as this sounds, I would rather have Leifer play left field than Lee. At least you know he will hustle to the ball. :gulp:

maurice
11-22-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
my comment was that if frank could ever end up in a position like greg vaughn in tampa, hampton until recently, or bonilla a few years ago where hes being payed an exhorbitant amount of money and not contributing anything to the team, that will hurt the team in a major way.

I think you're missing my point.

A large player salary only costs a team wins if the salary ties up money that the team is willing to invest in other, more productive players. By contrast, if the team would pocket the cash instead of paying other players, the big salary does not make the team less competitive.

For example, if Hurt signs with Baltimore and merely reproduces his 2002 stats, the Sox will not be a better team. They will be a worse team with a $10 million lower payroll, because the Sox will not reinvest the $10 million to sign a more productive player. Instead, they will just give Hurt's ABs to an even less productive Jeff Liefer, pocket the cash, and blame the fans.

Similarly, Tampa would not have won more games if they pocketed the cash instead of signing Vaughn, and Colorado would not have won more games if they pocketed the cash instead of signing Hampton. They would need to invest the money in a more productive player to improve the team.