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Lip Man 1
11-15-2002, 12:53 AM
Sox assistant GM Rick Hahn on the possibility of signing Mark Buehrle to a long term contract extension:

"It's certainly something we'll try to pursue, but it has to make sense for both sides."

There's that "fiscally responsible" attitude again in the nation's 3rd largest market! This from the same folks who cut him fifteen thousand last year because he had the stones to say no to their first offer.

Lip

SI1020
11-15-2002, 10:07 AM
How can it not "make sense"? If you were Buerhle what would you think? I know everybody is happy about the PK signing but isn't Mark important too? I guess I'm hopelessly out of date. I still believe that pitching and defense are important.

OneDog
11-15-2002, 10:31 AM
Jerry will never pay a starting pitcher a ton of money, because they don't play every day. This is the stupidest policy I've ever heard. The only way you're going to get and keep quality pitching is to pay for it. In this era of offense, it is more important than ever to find arms that can shut down the opposition's bats. If the Sox don't get Buerhle a long term deal, it could be one of the stupidest decisions in the history of the organization, and that's saying a lot.

FanOf14
11-15-2002, 10:32 AM
The needed to lock PK up almost (note the almost) as much as Buerhle because we don't have a firstbaseman in the wings with his bat and glove. I know ther are some people around here that knock PK's glove because his slowness, but he is considered better than average (this is what I've heard on ESPN, read in sporting magazines etc). But we most definitely without a doubt and it makes total and complete sense baseballwise and fiscally, sign Buerhle and get a #2 pitcher if we want to compete seriously next year.

voodoochile
11-15-2002, 10:35 AM
If they lowball Buehrle again and don't offer him a solid multi-year contract to get through the arbitration years, count him as good as gone. He may be anyway, but this would be the final straw if he is hesitating at all, imo...

MarkEdward
11-15-2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by OneDog
Jerry will never pay a starting pitcher a ton of money, because they don't play every day. This is the stupidest policy I've ever heard. The only way you're going to get and keep quality pitching is to pay for it. In this era of offense, it is more important than ever to find arms that can shut down the opposition's bats. If the Sox don't get Buerhle a long term deal, it could be one of the stupidest decisions in the history of the organization, and that's saying a lot.

I thought they didn't sign pitchers to long-term deals because of the threat of injury (good policy, actually). Has JR or Williams ever said otherwise?

voodoochile
11-15-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I thought they didn't sign pitchers to long-term deals because of the threat of injury (good policy, actually). Has JR or Williams ever said otherwise?

How is this a good policy? Every other team signs their good pitchers to long term contracts and takes the risk. Fiscal responsibility is not the answer. Take a couple of chances and see what happens. "Build (a winner) and they will come". Do the Yankees worry about whether their starters will get injured? Sure, but does that stop them from offering them long term deals? No.

How can a fan be happy with the way these guys run the team? Spend the f'n money JR!

WinningUgly!
11-17-2002, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How is this a good policy? Every other team signs their good pitchers to long term contracts and takes the risk. Fiscal responsibility is not the answer. Take a couple of chances and see what happens. "Build (a winner) and they will come". Do the Yankees worry about whether their starters will get injured? Sure, but does that stop them from offering them long term deals? No.

How can a fan be happy with the way these guys run the team? Spend the f'n money JR!

It's time...for JR to open up that fat wallet & invest some money in real pitching...Buehrle, along with a Glavine/Maddux type. In JR's defense, it was good policy to not sign certain pitchers long term (McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere, etc.) Can you imagine how reluctant he'd be to invest long term in pitching if he would have been burned on these 4 guys with long term deals.!?!?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-17-2002, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How is this a good policy? Every other team signs their good pitchers to long term contracts and takes the risk. Fiscal responsibility is not the answer. Take a couple of chances and see what happens. "Build (a winner) and they will come". Do the Yankees worry about whether their starters will get injured? Sure, but does that stop them from offering them long term deals? No.

How can a fan be happy with the way these guys run the team? Spend the f'n money JR!

Exactly. Whether JR thinks he is "smart" not to offer long-term deals to pitchers (except Navarro, of course!), the plain fact is the going market rate for top-drawer pitching talent DEMANDS long-term contracts.

The Sox are doomed as perpetual also-rans as long as JR stubbornly thinks this is good business sense. It's not. After 25 years of failed ownership, it's a good excuse for moving the franchise--nothing more!

MarkEdward
11-17-2002, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How is this a good policy? Every other team signs their good pitchers to long term contracts and takes the risk. Fiscal responsibility is not the answer. Take a couple of chances and see what happens. "Build (a winner) and they will come". Do the Yankees worry about whether their starters will get injured? Sure, but does that stop them from offering them long term deals? No.

How can a fan be happy with the way these guys run the team? Spend the f'n money JR!

I wouldn't mind if Buehrle was signed to a long-term contract, I just think it's dumb to sign every average to mediocre pitcher to a long-term deal. People were calling for JR's head after he let McDowell and Alex Fernandez go, but they didn't do much after their careers with the Sox.

Kevin Brown, Darren Dreifort, and Mike Hampton are reasons not to sign pitchers to long-term deals.

Lip Man 1
11-17-2002, 12:17 PM
Jack McDowell:

1995 Yankees: 15 wins
1996 Indians: 13 wins***

***While the Sox were blowing a 41/2 game Wild Card lead in September primarily because Sox 5th starters, like a young Mike Sirotka, Mike Bertotti etc went 5-18 on the season! Think "Black Jack" would have made a difference?

and let's see Alex Fernandez won what three or four games in the post season, in 1997, helping the Marlins win the World Series.

If you are looking for pitchers to dominate today like they did in the 50's and 60's forget it. That's a fantasy. Those are few and far between. If you have to pay them ungodly amounts of money for just four or five good years, tough!

Just do it! because that's what it takes to win today...quality, experienced, pitching. Not "can't miss kids" who more often then not DON'T pan out (especially with the Sox)

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
11-17-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Kevin Brown, Darren Dreifort, and Mike Hampton are reasons not to sign pitchers to long-term deals.

How about Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, and Wilson Alvarez? Reinsdorf let ALL THREE of them go in the space of 3 years. The Sox went from THE BEST pitching staff in the league to below-average in that time span.

Did you ever wonder why the Sox would have ANY interest in signing Jaime Navarro back in 1996? Reinsdorf's "no long term pitching contracts" policy costs us dearly. He isn't even smart enough to know which ones NOT to offer the long-term deal, too!

:jaime
"They had their chance and now they're stuck with me!"

:burly
"And you wonder why I'm looking forward to being a Cardinal..."

MarkEdward
11-17-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
[B]How about Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, and Wilson Alvarez? Reinsdorf let ALL THREE of them go in the space of 3 years. The Sox went from THE BEST pitching staff in the league to below-average in that time span.


Jack McDowell had exactly one good year after he left the Sox. Alex Fernandez has had some nice seasons when healthy (two of last six years). Wilson Alvarez wasn't exactly given away. He's only been healthy two of the last five years. 5 out of the last 16 seasons have been good from these pitchers. And you want these guys getting long-term contracts?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-17-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Jack McDowell had exactly one good year after he left the Sox. Alex Fernandez has had some nice seasons when healthy (two of last six years). Wilson Alvarez wasn't exactly given away. He's only been healthy two of the last five years. 5 out of the last 16 seasons have been good from these pitchers. And you want these guys getting long-term contracts?

Yeah, you're right. We were far better off with Joe Magrane, Luis Andujar, Kirk McCaskill, Jaime Navarro, Doug Drabek, Danny Darwin, and Scott Eyre.

What was I thinking!

World Series, here we come! Woo hoo!!!!!

LOL!

:gulp:

Daver
11-17-2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yeah, you're right. We were far better off with Joe Magrane, Luis Andujar, Kirk McCaskill, Jaime Navarro, Doug Drabek, Danny Darwin, and Scott Eyre.

What was I thinking!



You forgot to mention top draft pick Scott Ruffcorn............

PaleHoseGeorge
11-17-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by daver
You forgot to mention top draft pick Scott Ruffcorn............

Sorry. I also forgot Brian Keyser, Dave Righetti, and Mike Bertotti, too.

Now that I think of it, Reinsdorf should have traded all three of those overpriced bums (McDowell, Fernandez, and Alvarez) for something of long-term value. You know, like Todd Ritchie, for example.

:)

Lip Man 1
11-18-2002, 07:42 PM
How could you guys POSSIBLY forget such immortals like:

Jim Abbott
Rod Bolton
Jose DeLeon
Robert Ellis
Tim Fortugno
Atlee Hammaker
Dane Johnson
Steve Schrenk
Larry Thomas
Matt Karchner
Jeff Darwin
Carlos Castillo
Chris Clemons
Tom Fordham
Al Levine
Nelson Cruz
Lorenzo Barcelo
Todd Rizzo
John Snyder
Bryan Ward
Kevin Beirne

Everyone of those "clowns" were on the Sox roster between 1995 and 1999. "White Flag Deal" promised a better future my rear end!

Daver
11-18-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Everyone of those "clowns" were on the Sox roster between 1995 and 1999. "White Flag Deal" promised a better future my rear end!

Matt Karchner doesn't count,he was a failure,but he did get the Sox Jon Garland.

It's not our problem he is washing McPhails boat these days......

Tragg
11-18-2002, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by daver
Matt Karchner doesn't count,he was a failure,but he did get the Sox Jon Garland.

It's not our problem he is washing McPhails boat these days......

If I recall, Karchner was a crappy middle reliever. But after we traded Hernandez, he did a damn good job as closer for us. Of course, we dumped him on the Cubs at the right time.