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duke of dorwood
11-14-2002, 07:54 AM
Per NY Post:

Interestingly, the Mariners are trying to move Mike Cameron ($7 million in 2003), a key player in the Griffey trade from Seattle to Cincinnati. The Mariners then would move either Ichiro Suzuki or, more likely, Randy Winn to center.

Dadawg_77
11-14-2002, 08:52 AM
Not worth the price tag.

hold2dibber
11-14-2002, 09:16 AM
If Seattle would eat some of his salary, I'd love to have Cameron back. I'm still not convinced that Rowand is an every day major league ball player and even if he is, Cameron would be a huge step up defensively in CF. Plus, despite his struggles last year, he certainly can be a relatively effective hitter (insert Parque joke here). Plus, he has great wheels, and its always nice to have speed.

Jimenez 2B
Valentin SS
Thomas DH
Ordonez RF
Konerko 1B
CLee LF
Crede 3B
Cameron CF
?????? C

Pretty potent lineup.

voodoochile
11-14-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If Seattle would eat some of his salary, I'd love to have Cameron back. I'm still not convinced that Rowand is an every day major league ball player and even if he is, Cameron would be a huge step up defensively in CF. Plus, despite his struggles last year, he certainly can be a relatively effective hitter (insert Parque joke here). Plus, he has great wheels, and its always nice to have speed.

Jimenez 2B
Valentin SS
Thomas DH
Ordonez RF
Konerko 1B
CLee LF
Crede 3B
Cameron CF
?????? C

Pretty potent lineup.

Personally, I would like to see Lee batting second to start the year. I don't know who suggested it, but I absolutely love the idea. Second, I don't think we need Cameron in CF. Between Rowand and Harris, they can hopefully fill in well enough until Borchard gets his call up. With Olivo slated to start the season behind the plate there is one less hole to fill, so they can probably get by with the two lighter hitting CF and when Borchard comes up, the Sox will be damn potent...

duke of dorwood
11-14-2002, 11:01 AM
I love a big hitter batting second too. As for Cameron, he drives in runs, but the 7 mil makes it unlikely. We'd be damn strong up the middle, like the Twinks if we had a guy like that.

Foulke You
11-14-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I love a big hitter batting second too. As for Cameron, he drives in runs, but the 7 mil makes it unlikely. We'd be damn strong up the middle, like the Twinks if we had a guy like that.

Hey guys, you already have a clutch power hitter batting in the 2 spot. His name is Jose Valentin, the #2 hitter we won a division title with.

:manos
"I get no respect"

maurice
11-14-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Lee batting second

I've been a big proponent of this. CLee's not a great situational hitter, and he's a lousy base runner, but at least he gets on base. Jose is a good baserunner, but his OBP is really bad. It would be better to bat him down in the lineup to break up the string of right-handed hitters.

As for Cameron, he started off great last year but went downhill fast after his big game against Parque.

34 Inch Stick
11-14-2002, 11:46 AM
Now we can see if somebody else would make the trade of Konerko for Cameron.

Foulke You
11-14-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I've been a big proponent of this. CLee's not a great situational hitter, and he's a lousy base runner, but at least he gets on base. Jose is a good baserunner, but his OBP is really bad. It would be better to bat him down in the lineup to break up the string of right-handed hitters.

As for Cameron, he started off great last year but went downhill fast after his big game against Parque.

You're forgetting that Valentin hits about 40 points higher in the 2 spot. He also was the team leader in batting avg. with runners in scoring position. Your best clutch hitter is an even better hitter in the 2 spot where he has proven time and again that the 2 spot is where he belongs. You pointed out that he is also a better baserunner and more of a stealing threat but don't forget that he is also an above average bunter. As you pointed out Lee isn't the greatest situational hitter as he tends to get in wild swinging modes more so than Valentin. I like CLee I just would rather have him in a more power hitting spot like 3-6 when he can come up with lots of runners on with a chance to drive in runs. (See Cub killing Grand Slams)

As for Cameron, I don't think he's worth the hefty pricetag when the money is better spent on pitching. I would rather see Borchard out there in CF.

Hullett_Fan
11-14-2002, 12:27 PM
No thanks on Cameron...especially at 7 mil.

I like the Hollandsworth suggestion in an earlier thread. I'm not comfortable with Rowand in the lineup...especially now that he's banged up (but my mind can be changed by a strong spring training).

I share many people's feeling that Lee is being seriously shopped around this offseason....I can't figure out who will replace him other than Borchard..

2B Jimenez
SS Valentin
DH Thomas
RF Ordonez
1B Konerko
LF Borchard (how about Cliff Floyd? :D: )
3B Crede
CF Hollandsworth
C Olivio

Buerhle
Moyer
Vasquez
Garland
Wright

doublem23
11-14-2002, 02:00 PM
If the Mariners were willing to pay a significant amount of Mike's salary, I wouldn't mind seeing the Sox make a go at him. He's a huge defensive upgrade at center field (a defensive position), and he's probably no worse than Aaron's offensive equal.

The real question is, does he like to dirtbike?

:rowand
Shut up!

maurice
11-14-2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
You're forgetting that Valentin hits about 40 points higher in the 2 spot.

Not exactly. While Jose's numbers are higher batting second, they're not 40 points higher, and they're not as high as CLee's numbers.

Jose posted a .249 AVE / .311 OBP overall in 2002. His numbers were still only .258 / .333 in 128 ABs batting second. Heck, even in 2000 (perhaps his best year and one where he primarily batted second), his OBP was a mediocre .343. (The average OBP for a Sox player in 2000 was .356).

By contrast, CLee posted a .359 OBP in 2002, including a nifty .407 in the second half (when he started drawing tons of walks -- a trend that is likely to continue). Like Valentin, CLee also may post better numbers with the heart of a very good line-up batting behind him. For example, he had a .406 OPS batting third (a spot which belongs to Hurt, if he's back and productive in 2003).

He also was the team leader in batting avg. with runners in scoring position.

Which is why he would be far more productive batting lower in the order with a series of high OBP guys (CLee, Hurt, Maggs) getting on base in front of him.

he is also a better baserunner and more of a stealing threat

You're half right. Jose is a good baserunner in the same sense that Robin Ventura is a good baserunner -- rarely picked off, knows when to take an extra base, but not much of a threat to steal. Jose swiped some bags earlier in his career but never posted big SB totals. With age and nagging injuries, it looks like he is slowing down and may be done as a base stealer. He was only 3-for-6 in SBs in 2002. With Pettis gone, CLee has the potential (a dangerous word) to steal 20+ bases.

he is also an above average bunter....[Lee] tends to get in wild swinging modes more so than Valentin.

Half right again. Jose is a very good bunter, and CLee is terrible at it. However, in 2002, CLee had 73 Ks in 492 ABs, while Valentin had 99 Ks in only 474 ABs, pathetic for a veteran player listed at 185 lbs. Besides, I'm not a big fan of non-pitchers bunting to move runners over, especially early in a game.

I like CLee I just would rather have him in a more power hitting spot

While CLee has more power potential, the two players have produced very similar power numbers lately. Valentin posted 26 2Bs / 4 3Bs / 25 HRs / .479 SLG in 2002. CLee posted a remarkably similar 26 / 2 / 26 / .484.

I really like Jose, and there are strong arguments for either side of this debate, but the most relevant stat for a top-of-the-order hitter (OBP) overwhelmingly favors CLee. Plus, I reiterate that batting Jose down in the lineup breaks up a string of right-handed hitters.

hold2dibber
11-14-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Not exactly. While Jose's numbers are higher batting second, they're not 40 points higher, and they're not as high as CLee's numbers.

Jose posted a .249 AVE / .311 OBP overall in 2002. His numbers were still only .258 / .333 in 128 ABs batting second. Heck, even in 2000 (perhaps his best year and one where he primarily batted second), his OBP was a mediocre .343. (The average OBP for a Sox player in 2000 was .356).

By contrast, CLee posted a .359 OBP in 2002, including a nifty .407 in the second half (when he started drawing tons of walks -- a trend that is likely to continue). Like Valentin, CLee also may post better numbers with the heart of a very good line-up batting behind him. For example, he had a .406 OPS batting third (a spot which belongs to Hurt, if he's back and productive in 2003).



Which is why he would be far more productive batting lower in the order with a series of high OBP guys (CLee, Hurt, Maggs) getting on base in front of him.



You're half right. Jose is a good baserunner in the same sense that Robin Ventura is a good baserunner -- rarely picked off, knows when to take an extra base, but not much of a threat to steal. Jose swiped some bags earlier in his career but never posted big SB totals. With age and nagging injuries, it looks like he is slowing down and may be done as a base stealer. He was only 3-for-6 in SBs in 2002. With Pettis gone, CLee has the potential (a dangerous word) to steal 20+ bases.



Half right again. Jose is a very good bunter, and CLee is terrible at it. However, in 2002, CLee had 73 Ks in 492 ABs, while Valentin had 99 Ks in only 474 ABs, pathetic for a veteran player listed at 185 lbs. Besides, I'm not a big fan of non-pitchers bunting to move runners over, especially early in a game.



While CLee has more power potential, the two players have produced very similar power numbers lately. Valentin posted 26 2Bs / 4 3Bs / 25 HRs / .479 SLG in 2002. CLee posted a remarkably similar 26 / 2 / 26 / .484.

I really like Jose, and there are strong arguments for either side of this debate, but the most relevant stat for a top-of-the-order hitter (OBP) overwhelmingly favors CLee. Plus, I reiterate that batting Jose down in the lineup breaks up a string of right-handed hitters.

Well, my knee jerk reaction was that Jose should hit second, but you pretty much buried every argument in favor of that position. Nicely done - you've got me convinced.

Foulke You
11-14-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Not exactly. While Jose's numbers are higher batting second, they're not 40 points higher, and they're not as high as CLee's numbers.

Jose posted a .249 AVE / .311 OBP overall in 2002. His numbers were still only .258 / .333 in 128 ABs batting second. Heck, even in 2000 (perhaps his best year and one where he primarily batted second), his OBP was a mediocre .343. (The average OBP for a Sox player in 2000 was .356).

By contrast, CLee posted a .359 OBP in 2002, including a nifty .407 in the second half (when he started drawing tons of walks -- a trend that is likely to continue). Like Valentin, CLee also may post better numbers with the heart of a very good line-up batting behind him. For example, he had a .406 OPS batting third (a spot which belongs to Hurt, if he's back and productive in 2003).



Which is why he would be far more productive batting lower in the order with a series of high OBP guys (CLee, Hurt, Maggs) getting on base in front of him.



You're half right. Jose is a good baserunner in the same sense that Robin Ventura is a good baserunner -- rarely picked off, knows when to take an extra base, but not much of a threat to steal. Jose swiped some bags earlier in his career but never posted big SB totals. With age and nagging injuries, it looks like he is slowing down and may be done as a base stealer. He was only 3-for-6 in SBs in 2002. With Pettis gone, CLee has the potential (a dangerous word) to steal 20+ bases.



Half right again. Jose is a very good bunter, and CLee is terrible at it. However, in 2002, CLee had 73 Ks in 492 ABs, while Valentin had 99 Ks in only 474 ABs, pathetic for a veteran player listed at 185 lbs. Besides, I'm not a big fan of non-pitchers bunting to move runners over, especially early in a game.



While CLee has more power potential, the two players have produced very similar power numbers lately. Valentin posted 26 2Bs / 4 3Bs / 25 HRs / .479 SLG in 2002. CLee posted a remarkably similar 26 / 2 / 26 / .484.

I really like Jose, and there are strong arguments for either side of this debate, but the most relevant stat for a top-of-the-order hitter (OBP) overwhelmingly favors CLee. Plus, I reiterate that batting Jose down in the lineup breaks up a string of right-handed hitters.

You make some valid arguments but there are a few points I would like to make about Valentin. (yes, I still think Jose is my #2 hitter. :D: )

Manuel waited until the season was almost over before he realized we were a better team with Jose in the 2 spot so I won't put a lot of stock in the 2002 numbers as he didn't play many games there. One thing that can't be argued with was that Valentin and the lineup came to life again the second he was re-inserted there. I don't have any proof that CLee is a better hitter in the 2 spot (since he never really was in the 2 spot) so it is difficult for me to say he is the overwhelming choice for that spot. Valentin, on the other hand seems to be more valuable to the team in that spot. I think that you'd be hard pressed to find a Sox fan who didn't notice the difference between the #6 hitting Valentin and the #2 hitting Valentin. Lee, I believe is about the same hitter no matter where you put him in that lineup.

It will be interesting to see what Manuel does. You know how he likes to tinker (shudder). This is assuming Lee isn't traded for a pitcher before then. One thing that is important is for this team to know it's roles right from the get go. If Lee or Jose is to be batting 2nd, they need to tell them that right away so they can know what is expected of them there. No more tinkering on a daily basis.

Daver
11-14-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Per NY Post:

Interestingly, the Mariners are trying to move Mike Cameron ($7 million in 2003), a key player in the Griffey trade from Seattle to Cincinnati. The Mariners then would move either Ichiro Suzuki or, more likely, Randy Winn to center.


Ummm, No.

Jjav829
11-14-2002, 05:40 PM
No thanks. Now if the Mariners were thinking about moving Randy Winn, then sure. But I don't want Cameron.

Blueprint1
11-15-2002, 03:30 PM
I think its so funny that half you people said the Sox made a bad trade with the Reds getting rid of this guy. Everyone was screaming after his three homerun game. Its too bad he got Durham syndrome and thought he was a power hitter. I think we know who got the better player in that deal.

jeremyb1
11-15-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Not exactly. While Jose's numbers are higher batting second, they're not 40 points higher, and they're not as high as CLee's numbers.

Jose posted a .249 AVE / .311 OBP overall in 2002. His numbers were still only .258 / .333 in 128 ABs batting second. Heck, even in 2000 (perhaps his best year and one where he primarily batted second), his OBP was a mediocre .343. (The average OBP for a Sox player in 2000 was .356).

By contrast, CLee posted a .359 OBP in 2002, including a nifty .407 in the second half (when he started drawing tons of walks -- a trend that is likely to continue). Like Valentin, CLee also may post better numbers with the heart of a very good line-up batting behind him. For example, he had a .406 OPS batting third (a spot which belongs to Hurt, if he's back and productive in 2003).

Which is why he would be far more productive batting lower in the order with a series of high OBP guys (CLee, Hurt, Maggs) getting on base in front of him.

You're half right. Jose is a good baserunner in the same sense that Robin Ventura is a good baserunner -- rarely picked off, knows when to take an extra base, but not much of a threat to steal. Jose swiped some bags earlier in his career but never posted big SB totals. With age and nagging injuries, it looks like he is slowing down and may be done as a base stealer. He was only 3-for-6 in SBs in 2002. With Pettis gone, CLee has the potential (a dangerous word) to steal 20+ bases.

Half right again. Jose is a very good bunter, and CLee is terrible at it. However, in 2002, CLee had 73 Ks in 492 ABs, while Valentin had 99 Ks in only 474 ABs, pathetic for a veteran player listed at 185 lbs. Besides, I'm not a big fan of non-pitchers bunting to move runners over, especially early in a game.

While CLee has more power potential, the two players have produced very similar power numbers lately. Valentin posted 26 2Bs / 4 3Bs / 25 HRs / .479 SLG in 2002. CLee posted a remarkably similar 26 / 2 / 26 / .484.

I really like Jose, and there are strong arguments for either side of this debate, but the most relevant stat for a top-of-the-order hitter (OBP) overwhelmingly favors CLee. Plus, I reiterate that batting Jose down in the lineup breaks up a string of right-handed hitters.

i'm not ussually a big fan of intangibles, i think they're incredibly overrated and don't affect the game much, but i think they present some good reasons for jose to bat second. supposedly in '00 nosek developed a system of measuring unselfish acts that weren't measured by stats such as hitting a groundball to the right side to move runners over and other things of that nature and jose was by far the best. i agree that his obp isn't high but i'm not sure it needs to be as long as jiminez can get on base at a good clip ahead of him. while you're correct that carlos puts the ball in play more than jose, the numbers are still pretty comperable. while carlos is an excellent hitter i don't think he's as fundamentally sound as jose and that just can't be entirely measured by stats. i'm also not a fan of regularly having the number two hitter bunt just to move the runner over but there certainly are situations in a close game where you will want your number two hitter to lay down a bunt. perhaps most importantly, jose can make things happen on the basepaths. he's our smartest baserunner and stole 19 bases out of the 2 spot in '00 when we needed him to run. even if frank comes back i'd much rather see jose in the two spot and carlos in the three spot with frank batting lower in the order at least until he demonstrates he's the frank of old. carlos just seems to have far too much potential to drive in runs to bat so high in the order. maybe it should be looked into though especially if jiminez struggles to get on base from the leadoff spot.

RichH55
11-15-2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Well, my knee jerk reaction was that Jose should hit second, but you pretty much buried every argument in favor of that position. Nicely done - you've got me convinced.


Exactly what I thinking.....simply a beautiful argument....cheers :gulp:

voodoochile
11-15-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'm not ussually a big fan of intangibles, i think they're incredibly overrated and don't affect the game much, but i think they present some good reasons for jose to bat second. supposedly in '00 nosek developed a system of measuring unselfish acts that weren't measured by stats such as hitting a groundball to the right side to move runners over and other things of that nature and jose was by far the best. i agree that his obp isn't high but i'm not sure it needs to be as long as jiminez can get on base at a good clip ahead of him. while you're correct that carlos puts the ball in play more than jose, the numbers are still pretty comperable. while carlos is an excellent hitter i don't think he's as fundamentally sound as jose and that just can't be entirely measured by stats. i'm also not a fan of regularly having the number two hitter bunt just to move the runner over but there certainly are situations in a close game where you will want your number two hitter to lay down a bunt. perhaps most importantly, jose can make things happen on the basepaths. he's our smartest baserunner and stole 19 bases out of the 2 spot in '00 when we needed him to run. even if frank comes back i'd much rather see jose in the two spot and carlos in the three spot with frank batting lower in the order at least until he demonstrates he's the frank of old. carlos just seems to have far too much potential to drive in runs to bat so high in the order. maybe it should be looked into though especially if jiminez struggles to get on base from the leadoff spot.

The only time a #2 hitter is guaranteed to come up with the leadoff man on board is in the first inning and most AL teams don't start playing little ball that early in the game. The rest of the game he stands the same chance as anyone else (1/9=11.1%). Basing who bats second on the idea that they will have to move guys up for the heart of the order seems to be bad logic, because in reality it has an equal chance of being anyone on the team later in the game. In fact, based on a leadoff hitter getting on base at a .380 clip and 160 1st inning AB's, the #2 hitter will only be guaranteed of seeing the above mentioned situation 60 times a year (roughly). Of those 60 chances, the #2 hitter will reach base 22 times (roughly). So that leaves 38 guaranteed chances to try and advance the runner while making an out. The rest of the game there are no guarantees that this situation will happen again (in fact if it happens in the first, the odds go down of it happening again in the same game because the lineup starts to turnover). Seems like the extra 60 points of OBP over the course of 540 other AB would be much much more important than worrying about whether one guy can move a runner up better while making an out.

These odds might change in the NL where pitchers bat ninth and make the final out in an inning more often due to IBB to the 8th hitter and the fact that pitchers don't hit well. But in the AL with a guy in the 9 hole who has a .330 OBP, the odds even out for who makes the final out of the inning and thus who leads off the next one.

One other thing. Because of his lower OBP, Jose would have many more chances to move people up with an out than Carlos would. But, I think that is like picking a horse to win because every once in a while every other horse in the field falls down...