PDA

View Full Version : What about Foulke to the starting rotation?


chisox06
11-13-2002, 09:55 PM
Keith Foulke has stated that he would love to return to the starting rotation. The guy seems kind of a question mark now after last year, but he can be an awesome pitcher when he's on. What about Foulke the 3rd/4th starter and maybe Marte or Osuna closing? I guess it all depends if the sox can get another starter in the off season.

Daver
11-13-2002, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Keith Foulke has stated that he would love to return to the starting rotation. The guy seems kind of a question mark now after last year, but he can be an awesome pitcher when he's on. What about Foulke the 3rd/4th starter and maybe Marte or Osuna closing? I guess it all depends if the sox can get another starter in the off season.

If you make Keith Foulke a starter you better have a hell of a bullpen,cause he will never make it past the fourth inning.....

Tragg
11-13-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by daver
If you make Keith Foulke a starter you better have a hell of a bullpen,cause he will never make it past the fourth inning.....

YOu certainly may be right, Daver. But I really don't understand why that wasn't tried last august and september, when he was wallowing in middle relief. No downside to the experiment then as best I can tell.

guillen4life13
11-13-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Keith Foulke has stated that he would love to return to the starting rotation. The guy seems kind of a question mark now after last year, but he can be an awesome pitcher when he's on. What about Foulke the 3rd/4th starter and maybe Marte or Osuna closing? I guess it all depends if the sox can get another starter in the off season.

why do you say he is a question mark "after last year"? Last year he got off to a rough start, but he got back on track and was lights out. the tinkerer decided not to let him close anymore games, and let antonio osuna share closer duties with marte (osuna not being even close to qualified to do that).

foulke right now is the only bona fide closer on the White Sox big league roster.

Jerry_Manuel
11-13-2002, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
But I really don't understand why that wasn't tried last august and september, when he was wallowing in middle relief.

He would've only made it 4 innings at that point in the year. After pitching one or two innings for 4 or 5 months his arm wouldn't be able to last.

Lip Man 1
11-13-2002, 10:32 PM
Two problems with moving Foulke to the rotation...

1. Arm strength. He needs to know ASAP so that he can tailor his off season program and spring training camp for it. The Sox at this point don't know what the hell they want to do, or can do, so how are they supposed to let Foulke know?

2. Friends the Sox bullpen (collectively) blew 14 games last season,( I think that's the number!) where they took a lead into the 7th inning or later and lost the game. My point is the Sox bullpen isn't as hot as some of you think. They need help, primarily two more solid middle guys. You don't weaken an already soft bullpen by taking out one of its above average parts.

Particularly on a gamble that could hurt BOTH the starters as well as the bullpen.

Leave Foulke alone (so that if things fall apart for the club in 2003, as I expect them to, at least Foulke may be able to put up some good numbers so that the Sox can get more value when they hold their annual salary dump in July...)

Lip

voodoochile
11-13-2002, 11:58 PM
The return of Glover to the bullpen full time in 2003 should help solidify that position, unless he ends up getting traded in one of these deals. He is sort of the odd man out at this stage of the game - no starters slot and he doesn't want to pitch relief.

baggio202
11-14-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
You don't weaken an already soft bullpen by taking out one of its above average parts.



Lip

you do if youre the white sox...remember gary glover last year???

Ventura23Fan
11-14-2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Particularly on a gamble that could hurt BOTH the starters as well as the bullpen.



ITA. The only way this move would benefit the Sox would be if Keith becomes a decent 4th or 5th starter AND someone of his caliber replaces him in the bullpen. Too risky IMO.

I'm not sure everyone realizes just how good Keith has been for the Sox over the past 4 seasons. He has had an ERA below 3 in each of those seasons. I believe only Mariano Rivera and Pedro can make that same claim in the AL. I understand why he was removed as the closer in the middle of the season last year, but I thought he should have been put back in that role the last 2 months or so.

Just because Keith wants to be a starter does not mean it would be a good idea. Take a look at how he did as a starter in SF. Since he was traded to the Sox, he has only pitched out of the bullpen and it has been like night and day. I hope he is back in the closer role to begin the 2003 season.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-14-2002, 07:25 AM
Finally something we all can agree with.

He could perhaps build up his arm strength to pitch 5 innings maybe. But a 2 pitch pitcher is not gonna fair to well. He would need another pitch preferably another out pitch.

I just don't see him being able to fool guys with the change over more than a couple of innings, and his fastball is avg at best, and happens to be very straight.

NYSF

duke of dorwood
11-14-2002, 07:49 AM
As we can see, the indecisions for next year are already underway. Many more to come.

:jerry

Its never decision season for me

Foulke You
11-14-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
why do you say he is a question mark "after last year"? Last year he got off to a rough start, but he got back on track and was lights out. the tinkerer decided not to let him close anymore games, and let antonio osuna share closer duties with marte (osuna not being even close to qualified to do that).

foulke right now is the only bona fide closer on the White Sox big league roster.

Amen. Foulke is the closer, end of story. I was defending this guy when everyone was calling for his head after the Yankees series disaster last Summer. Foulke is a top notch closer in this league. His numbers the last few years speak for themselves. A lot of closers go through a tough stretch where they can't get anyone out. Percival went through most of the 2000 season struggling with his control and ended up with a lot of blown saves and in 2002 he wins a World Series. As Guillen4life pointed out, Foulke regrouped and pitched damn good in the second half but Manuel was too dumb to put him back in the closer role. He was too busy putting his rotating closers of Marte and Osuna. Bottom line, if we are to win in 2003 we need Foulke in that closer spot to save lots of games for us.

RKMeibalane
11-14-2002, 01:10 PM
:jerry

"I am excited about the bullpen. There are so many possibilities there. I still have a few tricks up my sleve, things I haven't tried yet. You know, of course, that I like to tinker. When I make changes next season, people will be wondering 'what's he doing now .' I can't wait for Opening Day."

kermittheefrog
11-14-2002, 02:35 PM
Am I the only one who saw what Derek Lowe did this year? He was a successful minor league starter, moved to the pen in the majors and kicked ass then moved back to the rotation this year to kick more ass. Foulke could do the same thing. And the idea that he is just a two pitch pitcher is BS. He can throw a slider and a curve but he rarely has use for them pitching one inning in a game. I think having Marte is great in that it gives us a chance to try Foulke in the rotation.

hold2dibber
11-14-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Am I the only one who saw what Derek Lowe did this year? He was a successful minor league starter, moved to the pen in the majors and kicked ass then moved back to the rotation this year to kick more ass. Foulke could do the same thing. And the idea that he is just a two pitch pitcher is BS. He can throw a slider and a curve but he rarely has use for them pitching one inning in a game. I think having Marte is great in that it gives us a chance to try Foulke in the rotation.

I don't disagree that Foulke might be able to turn himself into an effective starter. But I guess I don't agree that it would be a good idea to try. I like Marte, but if I recall correctly, his numbers against right handed hitters weren't all that great, and you need a closer who can get guys out on boths sides of the plate. Plus, although Foulke had a sub-par year (for him), Manuel jerked him around and mis-used him. He would have ended up with 25-30 saves and an ERA at or around 3.00 if he had stayed in the closer's role all year. Lowe, on the other hand, had become a complete basket case as a closer. They moved him to starter out of desparation. If the Sox can't find a good no. 2 this off season, then I'd consider grooming Foulke for the rotation (out of desparation). Otherwise, we need him in the pen.

Ventura23Fan
11-14-2002, 03:05 PM
I believe most of us are aware of what Lowe did this year. Yes, Keith COULD become a solid starter. I like Marte and he COULD become a solid closer (he has yet to prove himself over an entire season). By why take that risk when we KNOW Keith is a solid closer. And even with the staff the Sox have now, I think they have better options for starters. I think Rauch and Biddle have a better chance of succeeding in the starting rotation than Keith does. And I'm hoping that the Sox will add another solid starter via free agency. The only way this move would benefit the Sox is if both Keith AND Damaso succeed in their new roles.

Dennis Eckersley was a good starting pitcher and then became a great closer. Should the Sox consider moving Buehrle to the bullpen?

kermittheefrog
11-14-2002, 03:08 PM
The reason Foulke should move to the rotation is because starting pitchers are A LOT more valuable than relievers. A good starting pitcher will throw an excess of 200 innings while a good closer will throw 80 or so. Now it's true that the innings a closer throws have slightly more impact than a starter's innings but 120 IP is a huge difference to make up. A good starter is simply more valuable.

voodoochile
11-14-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
I believe most of us are aware of what Lowe did this year. Yes, Keith COULD become a solid starter. I like Marte and he COULD become a solid closer (he has yet to prove himself over an entire season). By why take that risk when we KNOW Keith is a solid closer. And even with the staff the Sox have now, I think they have better options for starters. I think Rauch and Biddle have a better chance of succeeding in the starting rotation than Keith does. And I'm hoping that the Sox will add another solid starter via free agency. The only way this move would benefit the Sox is if both Keith AND Damaso succeed in their new roles.

Dennis Eckersley was a good starting pitcher and then became a great closer. Should the Sox consider moving Buehrle to the bullpen?

I assume this last statement was in jest, but I agree with the rest of your post.

BTW, welcome to WSI...

Ventura23Fan
11-14-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The reason Foulke should move to the rotation is because starting pitchers are A LOT more valuable than relievers. A good starting pitcher will throw an excess of 200 innings while a good closer will throw 80 or so. Now it's true that the innings a closer throws have slightly more impact than a starter's innings but 120 IP is a huge difference to make up. A good starter is simply more valuable.

I agree that starters are more valuable than relievers. But good closers are a different story. Who is more valuable to the Angels, Percival or Lackey? Who is more valuable to the Giants, Nen or Hernandez? All the playoff contending teams had a good closer this year and that is usually the case every year. I would say the value of a good closer is about equal to that of a #3 starter. Yes, innings pitched are important, but a good closer can have an impact on twice the number of games that a starter does because he simply will have roughly twice the number of appearances.

Ventura23Fan
11-14-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I assume this last statement was in jest, but I agree with the rest of your post.

BTW, welcome to WSI...

Yes, I was kidding about moving Mark to the bullpen and thank you for the welcome.

hold2dibber
11-14-2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
Yes, I was kidding about moving Mark to the bullpen and thank you for the welcome.

Welcome aboard, and don't forget to use teal for sarcasm/jest.

hold2dibber
11-14-2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The reason Foulke should move to the rotation is because starting pitchers are A LOT more valuable than relievers. A good starting pitcher will throw an excess of 200 innings while a good closer will throw 80 or so. Now it's true that the innings a closer throws have slightly more impact than a starter's innings but 120 IP is a huge difference to make up. A good starter is simply more valuable.

In a vacuum, I agree. But you also have to factor in a team's needs. As someone else pointed out, the move would only work if Keith showed himself to be successful as a starter AND Marte become an effective closer. Two big "ifs". Plus, the Sox have plenty of candidates for the rotation already but their bullpen could, IMHO, use some bolstering (according to Lip Man, the Sox blew something like 14 post-7th inning leads last year; I'm not certain that that is a lot more than other teams, but it sounds like it) and taking Foulke out of the picture certainly wouldn't help in that regard.

kermittheefrog
11-14-2002, 07:22 PM
One thing of note, it's a lot easier to find a good closer than a good starter. Troy Percival, mentioned earlier in this thread, was a failed catching prospect. K-Rod who looks to have about as good a future as a closer as any young pitcher in baseball failed as a starting pitcher in the minors.

The starters you mentioned, Lackey and Hernandez aren't really more valuable than the closers on their team because they are mediocre starters (although Lackey probably has a future brighter than his present). I think Keith Foulke could be a legit #2 starter, a guy who is in the top 20 or 30 starters in baseball. Once again, Derek Lowe did it. Based on the quality of his 2002 season Marte is more than qualified to close. If Billy Koch and Jason Isringhausen can close Damaso Marte can.

Daver
11-14-2002, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I think Keith Foulke could be a legit #2 starter, a guy who is in the top 20 or 30 starters in baseball. Once again, Derek Lowe did it. Based on the quality of his 2002 season Marte is more than qualified to close. If Billy Koch and Jason Isringhausen can close Damaso Marte can.


Derek Lowe throws more than two pitches,he throws four,and all of them for strikes,Foulke does not.
We disagree on this one Kermit

And Brooks Keischnik is the Sox closer of the future.......

Jjav829
11-14-2002, 07:39 PM
I really don't see Foulke becoming a successful starter. And can we lose the Derek Lowe comparisons? Derek Lowe has a great sinker, something Foulke doesn't have, to go along with his fastball, curve, and changeup. If Foulke could throw all those pitches successfully and for strikes, then he might have a shot. But he doesn't.

Jerry_Manuel
11-14-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by daver
And Brooks Keischnik is the Sox closer of the future.......

Nope, he plays for the Brewers(?) now.

I know it was in teal.

chisox06
11-14-2002, 08:15 PM
Good comments, I like Foulke in the closing roll to (or at least out of the bullpen). The man in the past has been untouchable but we all ( like Percival) have bad years and the great ones can rebound. I expect the same from Foulke in 2003.

jeremyb1
11-14-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
As we can see, the indecisions for next year are already underway. Many more to come.

Its never decision season for me

isn't this entire thread kind of a moot point? am i the only one who remembers the whole thing at the end of the season where foulke insisted he would be told what his role would be next season so that he could begin to prepare in the offseason and manuel went on record as saying that foulke would be in the bullpen next season?

basilesox
11-15-2002, 01:31 PM
I think Marte could have a chance of becoming one of the league's premier setup man (a la JC Romero). THis role fits him best, so are only option should be Foulke as a closer. Osuna throws too many pitches and allows too many walks to be our closer. That being said, having all three of these pitchers in our bullpen---------could make it very solid indeed.

basilesox
11-15-2002, 01:33 PM
Kieschnik plays for the brewers. I thought he pitched and hit well last year in AAA. Why is he gone?

Daver
11-15-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by basilesox
Kieschnik plays for the brewers. I thought he pitched and hit well last year in AAA. Why is he gone?

Minor league free agency,I would guess he did not impress the Sox enough to get in a bidding fight for his services,and the Sox are rather top heavy in releif pitchers in AAA and AA.