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jeremyb1
11-13-2002, 06:54 PM
Lefthanded pitcher Jamie Moyer could emerge as a central figure in a free-agent tug of war between the Cubs and White Sox. Moyer is the White Sox's No. 1 target, and he also would fit nicely with the Cubs, who lack a veteran lefthanded starter.

Another option for the White Sox would be to pursue a trade for Bartolo Colon or Javier Vazquez if the Expos are forced to dump salaries. The Sox, however, are adamant that they won't trade their top young players and compromise their ability to compete in 2004 through '06. Colon would be under the White Sox's control for one season, Vazquez for two . . .

this is by far the most comforting news i've heard in some time. we're persuing a free agent as opposed to risky trades and we're finally abandoning the strategy of dealing our most promising young players in a game of russian roulette which causes us to forfeit our chance to become dominant in the next few years. excellent.

Jjav829
11-13-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Lefthanded pitcher Jamie Moyer could emerge as a central figure in a free-agent tug of war between the Cubs and White Sox. Moyer is the White Sox's No. 1 target, and he also would fit nicely with the Cubs, who lack a veteran lefthanded starter.

Another option for the White Sox would be to pursue a trade for Bartolo Colon or Javier Vazquez if the Expos are forced to dump salaries. The Sox, however, are adamant that they won't trade their top young players and compromise their ability to compete in 2004 through '06. Colon would be under the White Sox's control for one season, Vazquez for two . . .

this is by far the most comforting news i've heard in some time. we're persuing a free agent as opposed to risky trades and we're finally abandoning the strategy of dealing our most promising young players in a game of russian roulette which causes us to forfeit our chance to become dominant in the next few years. excellent.

Don't get your hopes up. We'll probably end up with Cory Lidle and Steve Parris. :(:

guillen4life13
11-13-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Lefthanded pitcher Jamie Moyer could emerge as a central figure in a free-agent tug of war between the Cubs and White Sox. Moyer is the White Sox's No. 1 target, and he also would fit nicely with the Cubs, who lack a veteran lefthanded starter.

Another option for the White Sox would be to pursue a trade for Bartolo Colon or Javier Vazquez if the Expos are forced to dump salaries. The Sox, however, are adamant that they won't trade their top young players and compromise their ability to compete in 2004 through '06. Colon would be under the White Sox's control for one season, Vazquez for two . . .

this is by far the most comforting news i've heard in some time. we're persuing a free agent as opposed to risky trades and we're finally abandoning the strategy of dealing our most promising young players in a game of russian roulette which causes us to forfeit our chance to become dominant in the next few years. excellent.

could you post a link? this site is somewhat well known and we could get hit with copyright violations.

Daver
11-13-2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
could you post a link? this site is somewhat well known and we could get hit with copyright violations.


He didn't post the entire article,but merely a quote from it,therefore it is not a copyright issue,as you are allowed under copyright law to quote an article,but if you do you should provide the author and the source.

Thanx for thinking about the sites well being though. :redneck

Lip Man 1
11-13-2002, 07:10 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. (and I still don't think acquiring a 40 year old pitcher is going to solve any problems!)

Lip

hold2dibber
11-13-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Lefthanded pitcher Jamie Moyer could emerge as a central figure in a free-agent tug of war between the Cubs and White Sox. Moyer is the White Sox's No. 1 target, and he also would fit nicely with the Cubs, who lack a veteran lefthanded starter.

Another option for the White Sox would be to pursue a trade for Bartolo Colon or Javier Vazquez if the Expos are forced to dump salaries. The Sox, however, are adamant that they won't trade their top young players and compromise their ability to compete in 2004 through '06. Colon would be under the White Sox's control for one season, Vazquez for two . . .

this is by far the most comforting news i've heard in some time. we're persuing a free agent as opposed to risky trades and we're finally abandoning the strategy of dealing our most promising young players in a game of russian roulette which causes us to forfeit our chance to become dominant in the next few years. excellent.

I see a few problems here. First, losing Moyer would be a huge hit to the Mariners. Garcia struggled mightily in the second half last year. Piniero looked good but is young Meche and Anderson are both coming off injuries. Abbott had one good year, but surely can't be counted on. Valdes is a free agent, Baldwin is a free agent. The point is, their rotation is pretty shaky as it is, and I'm guessing that re-signing Moyer is a top priority. And my guess is that Moyer likes it Seattle (great park, great team, huge crowds, etc. - what's not to like?). Plus, if the Cubs are the other suitor, they'll probably be willing to pay more than the Sox would be for Moyer.

As to Colon or Vazquez, who exactly do the Sox propose to trade for those guys if not their "top young players." The Expos aren't going to take Jon Adkins, Jeff Liefer and a Magglio Ordonez bobble-head doll for those guys. If the Sox' plan is to acquire a front line pitcher but not give up anything good in the trade, me thinks we won't be seeing Colon or Vazquez in black and white any time soon. To get either of those guys, the Sox will have to give up someone (or several someones) who will be hard to let go.

I think Jvav829's Lidle and Parris prediction might be closer to what happens (or Trachsell or Valdes or Baldwin, etc.).

SoxxoS
11-13-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
As to Colon or Vazquez, who exactly do the Sox propose to trade for those guys if not their "top young players." The Expos aren't going to take Jon Adkins, Jeff Liefer and a Magglio Ordonez bobble-head doll for those guys. If the Sox' plan is to acquire a front line pitcher but not give up anything good in the trade, me thinks we won't be seeing Colon or Vazquez in black and white any time soon. To get either of those guys, the Sox will have to give up someone (or several someones) who will be hard to let go.


That is probably what Bill Beane thought he needed to do to get Ray Durham.
I say trade Corwin Malone. This guy has Dan Wright Jr. written all over him. He is a lefty power pitcher, so that alone gives him high value. I dont know if KW wants to package him with CLee or a couple other prospects, but he would be a "top" prospect I wouldnt mind giving up.
Also, would it be too much to get Jamie Moyer and Colon? Its said we have to get our hopes up for Jamie Moyer or trading for Bartolo Colon, and NOTHING else. Look at the Phillies, they made $100 million in offers to Thome Glavine and David Bell. Its a travesty. The thing a lot of people fail to realize, is not only does acquiring a good pitcher solidify a spot, it kicks a worse pitcher to the bullpen. I would love to have-
Buerhle
Colon
Moyer
Garland
Wright/Rauch
and send Wright/Rauch and Todd Ritchie to the bullpen. Or, if Todd does well out of spring training, put him at #5. All of a sudden, you helped your pitching staff and added great depth. With Foulke returing to form, it WOULD BE a World Series type rotation. Its just a :whiner: shame, however... :(:

Daver
11-13-2002, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
That is probably what Bill Beane thought he needed to do to get Ray Durham.
I say trade Corwin Malone. This guy has Dan Wright Jr. written all over him. He is a lefty power pitcher, so that alone gives him high value. I dont know if KW wants to package him with CLee or a couple other prospects, but he would be a "top" prospect I wouldnt mind giving up.
Also, would it be too much to get Jamie Moyer and Colon?

Colon is going to cost the Sox a ton,just to make up what Montreal gave for him,they gave three of their top ten prospects in acquiring him,the equivilent from the Sox farm would be Rauch,Borchard,and Hummel,with a couple of lower teir prospects tossed in.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'll believe it when I see it. (and I still don't think acquiring a 40 year old pitcher is going to solve any problems!)

Lip


He's 40?!?!? Oh no! His arm must have fallen off in the offseason.....I assume that jump from 39 to 40 will jump that 3.3ish ERA to at least 5.00....he will probably lose a mile or two on that 85mph fastball...thank you for setting me straight on my desire to see Moyer in a White Sox uniform

RichH55
11-13-2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by daver
Colon is going to cost the Sox a ton,just to make up what Montreal gave for him,they gave three of their top ten prospects in acquiring him,the equivilent from the Sox farm would be Rauch,Borchard,and Hummel,with a couple of lower teir prospects tossed in.

Wright, Hummel, Malone, and ? :D:

Daver
11-13-2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Wright, Hummel, Malone, and ? :D:

Honel,and Rauch would round that speculation out.

chisox06
11-13-2002, 10:38 PM
Whenever a team wants to dump payroll, they always look for prospected players in return. Colon would cost the sox a lot, but they NEED another proven pitcher in the rotation, I just hope the sox dont get too stupid about this, but they have screwed themselves in the past.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 11:08 PM
There have been precious few trade rumors, although Lidle-for-Johnson and another player is a realistic possibility. The White Sox are trying to find a couple of veteran starters to fit between Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland and Danny Wright. They have also set their sights on Jamie Moyer.

From Gammons there

That plus Rosenthal would mean maybe the Moyer thing isnt that crazy

Jerry_Manuel
11-13-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Whenever a team wants to dump payroll, they always look for prospected players in return. Colon would cost the sox a lot, but they NEED another proven pitcher in the rotation, I just hope the sox dont get too stupid about this, but they have screwed themselves in the past.

They don't NEED Colon that bad. This team is not ready to contend in 2003, so they would have to resign Colon to big money after the upcoming season, and we know that just will not happen.

Lip Man 1
11-13-2002, 11:38 PM
Rich says:

"I assume that jump from 39 to 40 will jump that 3.3ish ERA to at least 5.00..

Hey Rich, with the White Sox brutal defense and lack of fundamentals (especially compared to the Mariners) it JUST MIGHT!

Moyer is a ground ball pitcher and the last time I looked the Sox didn't have any "Gold Gloves" in the infield. (The Mariners had two...Olerud and Boone and Rodriguez was also with them for a number of years Moyer pitched!)

Lip

Jerry_Manuel
11-13-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hey Rich, with the White Sox brutal defense and lack of fundamentals (especially compared to the Mariners) it JUST MIGHT!


The only question mark in that infield is Valentin. Crede can do the job at 3rd, and D'Angelo is pretty good at 2nd. The OF is a question mark outside of Magglio.

voodoochile
11-14-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by daver
Honel,and Rauch would round that speculation out.

Bummer, and I was hoping for Leifer...

:D:

voodoochile
11-14-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
The only question mark in that infield is Valentin. Crede can do the job at 3rd, and D'Angelo is pretty good at 2nd. The OF is a question mark outside of Magglio.

Indeed and the left side is going to have sick range. If Jimenez can keep playing like he did late in 2002, the infield defense just got way better...

RichH55
11-14-2002, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Indeed and the left side is going to have sick range. If Jimenez can keep playing like he did late in 2002, the infield defense just got way better...

Don't be saying that it contradicts Lip's bad news jones

RichH55
11-14-2002, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rich says:

"I assume that jump from 39 to 40 will jump that 3.3ish ERA to at least 5.00..

Hey Rich, with the White Sox brutal defense and lack of fundamentals (especially compared to the Mariners) it JUST MIGHT!

Moyer is a ground ball pitcher and the last time I looked the Sox didn't have any "Gold Gloves" in the infield. (The Mariners had two...Olerud and Boone and Rodriguez was also with them for a number of years Moyer pitched!)

Lip


A One and a Half point jump in ERA based upon losing Olerud and Boone? Who was the SS(I honestly dont remember), I think the 3B was Cirillo(not exactly Brooks Robinson out there)...cmon thats just ridiculous Lip.....I think losing Safeco as home field means something to his ERA, but a 1.50 jump due to moving from Seattle to Chicago is poor poor reasoning....Isn't Seattle the team that during the 7 year stretch we talked about saw both Jay Buhner and Al Martin get significant OF time? Defensive juggernaunt! Jose will make 30 errors next year, being nice to your point Lip, do all of those come while Moyer is pitching? He also turns a pretty good DP, does none of the rise in DPs the Sox turn(and they will) come during Moyer's innings?


Heres a question not related to my argument: Would it be easier to be an IF for a guy throwing 85 vs a guy throwing 95? I would assume its easier for the the 85 because the ball cant be hit as hard, but I defer to the experts on that

hold2dibber
11-14-2002, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
He's 40?!?!? Oh no! His arm must have fallen off in the offseason.....I assume that jump from 39 to 40 will jump that 3.3ish ERA to at least 5.00....he will probably lose a mile or two on that 85mph fastball...thank you for setting me straight on my desire to see Moyer in a White Sox uniform

His ERA was over 5.00 just two seasons ago, in 2000, when he was "only" 37 or so. And since his 2002 ERA of about 3.35 was his all time best, it seems quite likely that no matter where he is next year, Moyer will have an ERA that is worse than 3.35. That said, I would not be surprised if Moyer has an ERA of 3.50 next year, nor would I be surprised if he had an ERA of 4.75 next year. There's not a lot of history to go on when you're talking about a 40 year old junk ball starter. I'd like to see the Sox sign Moyer, but I have to admit that it would be a risky proposition.

maurice
11-14-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
A One and a Half point jump in ERA based upon losing Olerud and Boone?

Suzuki, Cameron, Guillen (the regular SS), Cirillo, and Wilson are pretty darn good defensive players also, but I agree that a 1.5 increase is a bit much. The bigger issues for me are Moyer's age (40) and erratic career stats (5.49 ERA in 2000, 5.21 in '95, 5.75 in '91). His career ERA (4.14) doesn't exactly scream "#2 starter." Signing him to even a three-year deal would be a fairly large risk, and I'd be shocked if JR agreed to it.

You also have to figure in that he wouldn't pitch against the Sox any more. That's got to add something to his ERA. We've got a very good offensive club, but junk-ballers absolutely killed us last season.

voodoochile
11-14-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Suzuki, Cameron, Guillen (the regular SS), Cirillo, and Wilson are pretty darn good defensive players also, but I agree that a 1.5 increase is a bit much. The bigger issues for me are Moyer's age (40) and erratic career stats (5.49 ERA in 2000, 5.21 in '95, 5.75 in '91). His career ERA (4.14) doesn't exactly scream "#2 starter." Signing him to even a three-year deal would be a fairly large risk, and I'd be shocked if JR agreed to it.

You also have to figure in that he wouldn't pitch against the Sox any more. That's got to add something to his ERA. We've got a very good offensive club, but junk-ballers absolutely killed us last season.

Junk ballers have been this teams nemesis since the days of 'The Kids Can Play". If it was a day game, fugedaboudit...

Never been a huge Moyer fan. Maybe it was the way the Sox absolutely lit him up in 2000, but I just don't think this guy is worth the hype, the length of contract being discussed or the money. Sox need a starter with some fire in his arm and in his chest...

pudge
11-14-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Suzuki, Cameron, Guillen (the regular SS), Cirillo, and Wilson are pretty darn good defensive players also, but I agree that a 1.5 increase is a bit much. The bigger issues for me are Moyer's age (40) and erratic career stats (5.49 ERA in 2000, 5.21 in '95, 5.75 in '91). His career ERA (4.14) doesn't exactly scream "#2 starter." Signing him to even a three-year deal would be a fairly large risk, and I'd be shocked if JR agreed to it.

You also have to figure in that he wouldn't pitch against the Sox any more. That's got to add something to his ERA. We've got a very good offensive club, but junk-ballers absolutely killed us last season.

Don't forget the stadium - I go there all the time, and you can give up a whole bunch of mistakes in that place and not have it hurt you. The gaps are huge and Cameron and Ichiro track everything down.

Having said that, Moyer has really impressed me the past couple seasons. He's gotten to the point where he is very confident in his abilities and knows how to approach a game.

Still, I think those things were being said about Mr. Ritchie too.

In the end, I'd love to have Moyer, even if he was a bust, it'd be worth the risk.

guillen4life13
11-15-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Don't forget the stadium - I go there all the time, and you can give up a whole bunch of mistakes in that place and not have it hurt you. The gaps are huge and Cameron and Ichiro track everything down.

Having said that, Moyer has really impressed me the past couple seasons. He's gotten to the point where he is very confident in his abilities and knows how to approach a game.

Still, I think those things were being said about Mr. Ritchie too.

In the end, I'd love to have Moyer, even if he was a bust, it'd be worth the risk.

i don't think it's worth the risk at all. for one: he's 40 years old! I understand that yes, nolan ryan pitched til he was 45. moyer has a 4.14 era, and there is just as much a likelyhood that he will come out with a 5.30 era in 2003 as there is of him coming out with a 3.50 era. on top of that, he is going to be asking for a fat check... and i don't think it would be worth the risk. and we have to realize that jr isn't going to spend that much money, so what he spends has to be as efficiently spent as possible, and on the best talent the money will buy.

jeremyb1
11-15-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
i don't think it's worth the risk at all. for one: he's 40 years old! I understand that yes, nolan ryan pitched til he was 45. moyer has a 4.14 era, and there is just as much a likelyhood that he will come out with a 5.30 era in 2003 as there is of him coming out with a 3.50 era. on top of that, he is going to be asking for a fat check... and i don't think it would be worth the risk. and we have to realize that jr isn't going to spend that much money, so what he spends has to be as efficiently spent as possible, and on the best talent the money will buy.

as long as we don't sign him for a ton of money or a deal more than 2 or 3 years (neither of which we'll do since he's 40) i don't think it poses much of a risk to us as fans. the money would most likely end up in reinsdorf's pocket otherwise. now that we resigned paully we still have all of our key players for at least 2 more years so by the time we need to start extending player's deals the contract would be close to up. all we stand to lose as fans is a number one draft pick which is kind of rough but not the end of the world.

yyz
11-15-2002, 06:40 PM
The key here is really what we would pay him. He made $6.5mm last year. If we could sign him to an incentive-laden deal with a low base, it would be worth taking a flyer on him. If he craps out, we need another bullpen lefty anyway. Basically, I think we need to assemble a number of pitchers who *could* have a very good year, and hope that some of them pan out. The Wells acquistion proved that you can't really count on buying an ace - we're better off with two $5mm pitchers than one $10mm pitcher.

If we sign him, we have Buehrle, Garland and Moyer who all have a pretty good shot at having very good years, and we can pick the other two starters from among Wright (most likely), Ritchie (remember, he was good at the beginning of last year before he got hurt), Rauch, Biddle and Foulke (if they start him). For this reason, I would also not mind re-signing JB for a reasonable figure. He's not gonna be a number one starter, but he might be a servicable number 3.

RichH55
11-15-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
i don't think it's worth the risk at all. for one: he's 40 years old! I understand that yes, nolan ryan pitched til he was 45. moyer has a 4.14 era, and there is just as much a likelyhood that he will come out with a 5.30 era in 2003 as there is of him coming out with a 3.50 era. on top of that, he is going to be asking for a fat check... and i don't think it would be worth the risk. and we have to realize that jr isn't going to spend that much money, so what he spends has to be as efficiently spent as possible, and on the best talent the money will buy.


The 40 years old thing means nothing...Are you worried about him losing speed on his pitches or getting injured? That is why one worries about age in players....nothing in Moyer's track record suggests that either of these should be major/minor concerns.....If you look over the last 7 years of his career I think he only has one year over 4.00 in terms of ERA....granted playing in Seattle helps that...but not but a point and a half.....I haven't heard definate numbers, but I though his price range was something like 7-8 million per? Thats not crazy and I think the big thing is that he wants the 3 years...He only costs money, and if you don't get him the chances are that the money either isnt spent or is spent on the likes of Todd Ritchie....so I reiterate, whats the problem with Jamir Moyer?

guillen4life13
11-16-2002, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
The 40 years old thing means nothing...Are you worried about him losing speed on his pitches or getting injured? That is why one worries about age in players....nothing in Moyer's track record suggests that either of these should be major/minor concerns.....If you look over the last 7 years of his career I think he only has one year over 4.00 in terms of ERA....granted playing in Seattle helps that...but not but a point and a half.....I haven't heard definate numbers, but I though his price range was something like 7-8 million per? Thats not crazy and I think the big thing is that he wants the 3 years...He only costs money, and if you don't get him the chances are that the money either isnt spent or is spent on the likes of Todd Ritchie....so I reiterate, whats the problem with Jamir Moyer?

no offense to those over 40, but when you get to be that old, you're more likely to have injuries of any sort (face it, bones start getting more brittle, muscles tighten much more easily, cramps occur more often). what bothers me about moyer is that throughout his career he has had results that have been either pretty good (not very good, but pretty good), or absolutely horrible. You gotta understand that the guy for a while (during the time when he should have been in his prime) was bouncing from the minors to the bigs. He throws slow stuff with precision (and yes, I think that's a great pitching style), but he's much more likely to have certain ailments. And whether he's 40 or not, he has fluctuated a lot, and there is no way to really expect anything. It's possible for him to post an ERA up there in the 5.50 range, and it is just as possible for him to have a 3.50 ERA. I don't think that 7 or 8 million is worth that gamble, considering that is money that could possibly be spent on a lower risk player with a good track record, or at least extremely high potential.

as for the mentoring thing... the only person jamie moyer could even come close to mentoring would be Jim Parque. He's the only one who relies on using Moyer's pitching style to get back up to the big league level. i don't think that's worth it.

RichH55
11-16-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
no offense to those over 40, but when you get to be that old, you're more likely to have injuries of any sort (face it, bones start getting more brittle, muscles tighten much more easily, cramps occur more often). what bothers me about moyer is that throughout his career he has had results that have been either pretty good (not very good, but pretty good), or absolutely horrible. You gotta understand that the guy for a while (during the time when he should have been in his prime) was bouncing from the minors to the bigs. He throws slow stuff with precision (and yes, I think that's a great pitching style), but he's much more likely to have certain ailments. And whether he's 40 or not, he has fluctuated a lot, and there is no way to really expect anything. It's possible for him to post an ERA up there in the 5.50 range, and it is just as possible for him to have a 3.50 ERA. I don't think that 7 or 8 million is worth that gamble, considering that is money that could possibly be spent on a lower risk player with a good track record, or at least extremely high potential.

as for the mentoring thing... the only person jamie moyer could even come close to mentoring would be Jim Parque. He's the only one who relies on using Moyer's pitching style to get back up to the big league level. i don't think that's worth it.


I don't think its fair to consider the earlier years of Moyers career at this point...Check out the last 7(!) years...thats a pretty big sample size IMHO.....