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View Full Version : Sox targeting Lidle for Lee?


DrCrawdad
11-13-2002, 06:18 AM
According to the Cubune:

"The White Sox won't come out of the general manager's meetings in Tucson, Ariz., with a starting pitcher, but they're sizing up the possibilities.

"The latest suspect in the Sox's search for a No. 2 starter is Oakland right-hander Cory Lidle, whom the A's reportedly are shopping for outfield help..."

duke of dorwood
11-13-2002, 07:49 AM
We all thought we were getting Lidle when we traded Ray. Seemed like a good deal then with Ray being a free agent. If Lee could be included in a Colon deal, obviously I would not make this one.

hold2dibber
11-13-2002, 07:54 AM
I would be hesitant to trade Lee for Lidle straight up. Lidle is okay, but he's not exactly going to make anyone forget Bob Gibson. Lee seems like a steep price to pay for Lidle; as the Duke suggests, I think they could package Lee with Wright or Biddle and get a starting pitcher who is a true difference maker (although they might have to throw in another good prospect like Almonte, Munoz or Valentine).

NewyorkSoxFan
11-13-2002, 08:01 AM
What has this guy ever done? Don't we have him on the roster already? Yea we need an 8-10 pitcher on the staff like I need a hole in my head. KW-maybe we can strike lightning in a bottle again, and again, and again. I guess if you keep signing marginal pitchers each offseason eventually we'll get one right.

NYSF

hold2dibber
11-13-2002, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
What has this guy ever done? Don't we have him on the roster already? Yea we need an 8-10 pitcher on the staff like I need a hole in my head. KW-maybe we can strike lightning in a bottle again, and again, and again. I guess if you keep signing marginal pitchers each offseason eventually we'll get one right.

NYSF

Lidle will be 31 on opening day next year. He has posted sub-4.00 ERAs in each of the past two years while pitching close to 200 innings each of those years. Certainly a better 2 year track record than anyone on the Sox' staff other than Buehrle; but at what price? And if the Sox don't get at least similar type numbers out of at least 2 of the young starterr (Wright, Garland, Rauch, Biddle) next year, they're sunk anyway. In a nutshell, I wouldn't mind having him, but I'd be hesitant to give up CLee for him alone. And they sure as hell better not trade Lee before Frank's situation is resolved; they'd be really screwed if they dealt CLee for pitching and then Frank left via free agency. The lineup would be in shambles.

Lidle career stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5806)

duke of dorwood
11-13-2002, 09:00 AM
According to the NY Post, Lidle will make 4.8 million next year. Wonder if this will come into play?

Hullett_Fan
11-13-2002, 09:12 AM
Can anyone say Todd Ritchie II ???

We need a real starter...this guy is no where near #2 material.

WinningUgly!
11-13-2002, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Can anyone say Todd Ritchie II ???

We need a real starter...this guy is no where near #2 material.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I wouldn't mind Lidle in the rotation, but I don't like the idea of giving up Carlos Lee for him. Lidle is not a significant enough of an upgrade over the Garland/Wright types.

OEO Magglio
11-13-2002, 09:51 AM
I would definetly like to get Cory Lidle, Carlos Lee is definetly a steep price, and if KW were to make this deal, he better have Thomas signed. But a rotation with Buehrle, Lidle, Garland, Wright, and Rauch/Biddle/ Ritchie(because KW wants to prove he made a good trade) this definetly seems like an upgraded rotation from last year, with Buehrle and Lidle at the top, and the continious developement of Garland and Wright, and I'm expecting big things from Rauch this upcoming season.

Lip Man 1
11-13-2002, 11:33 AM
This and That...

First off I don't know who's right but Peter Gammons has a different take on the Sox trying to get Lidle then Paul Sullivan. Quoting him on ESPN.com:

"There have been precious few trade rumors, although Lidle-for- Mark Johnson and another player is a realistic possibility. The White Sox are trying to find a couple of veteran starters to fit between Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland and Danny Wright. They have also set their sights on Jamie Moyer" (That last part should make Rich 55 happy!)

My thoughts are that I'd do the Lidle for Johnson in a heartbeat.

As far as Lidle for Johnson and another player, I'd have to know who that other player would be.

I had the chance to get to know Lidle when he pitched here in Pocatello in 1993 for the Posse. He's a great guy, a hard worker who came out of nowhere to get into MLB.

That being said I agree with hold2dibber that he's not going to win you 15 games. If he couldn't do that on a great A's team the past three seasons, what makes anybody think he's going to do that with a considerably weaker Sox team?

I also agree with the post that the Sox have gone after "damaged goods" in one way or another the past two years under Williams (i.e. Wells and Ritchie). It's time to stop screwing around and find out what it will take to get a top shelf pitcher, who is NOT hurt and has been a consistent winner.

It'll take a ton I'm sure, but how bad do you want it? The Sox have got to stop relying on "hope" that "maybe" they can find someone to lead the staff (with Buehrle).

Quality costs money! "It's time" the Sox start paying the price. (of course we all know that'll never happen under Jerry Reinsdorf!)

Lip

Hullett_Fan
11-13-2002, 11:44 AM
My thoughts are that I'd do the Lidle for Johnson in a heartbeat.


Exactly. Beane is smarter than that though so it will be interesting to see who that other player. KW may offer Lee without Beane having to ask. :D:

Wouldn't mind both Moyer and Lidle in place of a Glavine/Maddux/Colon if it comes cheap. At least if one of them doesn't pan out the other one may. :?:

baggio202
11-13-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Exactly. Beane is smarter than that though so it will be interesting to see who that other player. KW may offer Lee without Beane having to ask. :D:

Wouldn't mind both Moyer and Lidle in place of a Glavine/Maddux/Colon if it comes cheap. At least if one of them doesn't pan out the other one may. :?:

knowing KW the other player probably is carlos lee...lee and johnson for lidle....throw in corwin malone and we got a perfect KW trade :angry:

Foulke You
11-13-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
knowing KW the other player probably is carlos lee...lee and johnson for lidle....throw in corwin malone and we got a perfect KW trade :angry:


What if Lee isn't the other player involved. The thought crossed my mind that perhaps the other player with Mark Johnson involved in this trade could be Jeff Liefer. He's a lefty power hitting outfielder who wants out. The A's will be looking for power to replace the loss of David Justice. I'd do Liefer and Johnson for Lidle. I don't know about Lee and Johnson for him though...

Other thoughts: Gammons (a shakey source at best) said we are looking to add a COUPLE veteran pitchers to put between Buehrle and Garland/Wright. Could it be we would get a Lidle and a Colon/Moyer type? And then I woke up and remembered who our GM is...

:KW
"How about Lee, Liefer, Johnson, Rauch, and Honel for Lidle?"

jeremyb1
11-13-2002, 12:11 PM
"There have been precious few trade rumors, although Lidle-for- Mark Johnson and another player is a realistic possibility. The White Sox are trying to find a couple of veteran starters to fit between Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland and Danny Wright. They have also set their sights on Jamie Moyer"

thank god. this just shows once and for all what an idiot paul sullivan is. kw would have to be out of his mind to trade carlos for lidle. the a's have next to no use for lidle at this point because they're a cost conscious team that would be paying him 5 million to be their number five starter. freeing up that money might also allow them to sign durham as well as sliding a cheap young guy into the fifth starters spot. lidle is good but inconsistent. he didn't make it to the majors until he was nearly 30 and had major struggles coming out of the gate last year. i'd take him but not for much. trading him for mj who beane no doubt likes due to his defense, left handed bat, and obp would be a good move for us even if it'd mean keeping josh paul on the roster. i'd miss mj but this would be a pretty solid deal. i just hope we don't actually acquire two starters which would make it impossible for either rauch or biddle to earn a spot in the rotation.

jeremyb1
11-13-2002, 12:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
[B]Exactly. Beane is smarter than that though so it will be interesting to see who that other player. KW may offer Lee without Beane having to ask. :D:

the thing is that it wouldn't make much sense for the deal to be described as mj and another player if the other player were significantly better than mj. maybe beane doesn't have any takers and wants to move the salary. a lot of teams might not want to pay 5 million for lidle when they could have robert person, brian anderson, or omar daal for less.

34 Inch Stick
11-13-2002, 12:15 PM
Lee and ____ for Lidle. You can put liefer, johnson, paul all togehter and the trade is really only Lee for Lidle. Murph was saying he would do that trade in a minute. I guess I just don't know as much as he does.

By the way, how many times do I have to say this on the board, OUR BIG FREE AGENT SIGNING IS GOING TO BE TRACHSELL. Unlike a former post where it said I was advocating it, I am just recognizing the type of club we are and the type of player we usually sign and...presto.

FanOf14
11-13-2002, 12:15 PM
Why did everyone have a change of heart about Lidle? When the Lidle for Durham trade was mentioned, everyone said there was no way we'd get a pitcher like him for Durham...did i miss something (it's likely that i did considering the way the it's been hitting the fan at work)?

jeremyb1
11-13-2002, 12:29 PM
here look, the rest of the gammons article does suggest moving lidle would be an attempt to cut payroll:

Beane is out looking to move some salary (Cory Lidle to the White Sox for catcher Mark Johnson is a possibility) and add a center fielder if that player meets the Oakland criteria.

the fact that beane is looking to cut payroll would explain why he accept less talent than he's giving up - 5 million is a lot of money for a team with a payroll less than 50 million to pay when they want to sign durham and resign tejada. this also means that - another detail sullivan couldn't put together - that carlos lee would not be involved in this deal since he will be paid close to 5 million this year which would cancel out the cost cutting measure of trading lidle. the other player would have to be someone along the lines of rowand or harris (although probably not) or a minor leaguer such as valenzuela, valentine, almonte, ulacia, west, or perhaps even malone although i doubt it. rowand and harris don't really meet the "oakland criteria" gammons speaks of because neither of them walk enough.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
here look, the rest of the gammons article does suggest moving lidle would be an attempt to cut payroll:

Beane is out looking to move some salary (Cory Lidle to the White Sox for catcher Mark Johnson is a possibility) and add a center fielder if that player meets the Oakland criteria.

the fact that beane is looking to cut payroll would explain why he accept less talent than he's giving up - 5 million is a lot of money for a team with a payroll less than 50 million to pay when they want to sign durham and resign tejada. this also means that - another detail sullivan couldn't put together - that carlos lee would not be involved in this deal since he will be paid close to 5 million this year which would cancel out the cost cutting measure of trading lidle. the other player would have to be someone along the lines of rowand or harris (although probably not) or a minor leaguer such as valenzuela, valentine, almonte, ulacia, west, or perhaps even malone although i doubt it. rowand and harris don't really meet the "oakland criteria" gammons speaks of because neither of them walk enough.


This sounds more likely to me

WinningUgly!
11-13-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Why did everyone have a change of heart about Lidle? When the Lidle for Durham trade was mentioned, everyone said there was no way we'd get a pitcher like him for Durham...did i miss something (it's likely that i did considering the way the it's been hitting the fan at work)?

Durham was walking away at the end of the season anyway. Trading 2 months of Durham for Lidle would have been a no brainer for the Sox. Trading a 26 year old Carlos Lee who made huge improvements in his plate disipline last year for Lidle seems a bit more risky.

OneDog
11-13-2002, 02:17 PM
I don't think it's as risky when you have a guy like Joe Borchard waiting to take Lee's place. I would have no problem trading Lee for Lidle. I think once Lidle got out of the shadow of the big three, he would be a very cappable # 2 pitcher.

doublem23
11-13-2002, 02:29 PM
Cory Lidle for Carlos Lee?

Kenny, please prove my belief that you are completely incapable of running a major league team and pull the trigger on this trade.

WinningUgly!
11-13-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by OneDog
I don't think it's as risky when you have a guy like Joe Borchard waiting to take Lee's place. I would have no problem trading Lee for Lidle. I think once Lidle got out of the shadow of the big three, he would be a very cappable # 2 pitcher.

Lidle's a nice pitcher, but there's no way any team makes the playoffs with him as their #2 starter. I'm all for trading Carlos Lee, if it is in a deal that makes the team significantly better. Lidle as our #2 starter wouldn't do that, IMO.

pearso66
11-13-2002, 02:33 PM
the deal for lidle i wouldnt mind seeing would be johnson and maybe ritchie, it would get him off of our team, and then open up another rotation spot, because you know he's going to be starting if he's still with this team next year.

by the way, what is ritchie's salary? is it significantly less than $5 mill?

WinningUgly!
11-13-2002, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Cory Lidle for Carlos Lee?

Kenny, please prove my belief that you are completely incapable of running a major league team and pull the trigger on this trade.

Hasn't he already provided more than enough proof?

hold2dibber
11-13-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
"There have been precious few trade rumors, although Lidle-for- Mark Johnson and another player is a realistic possibility. The White Sox are trying to find a couple of veteran starters to fit between Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland and Danny Wright. They have also set their sights on Jamie Moyer"

thank god. this just shows once and for all what an idiot paul sullivan is. kw would have to be out of his mind to trade carlos for lidle. the a's have next to no use for lidle at this point because they're a cost conscious team that would be paying him 5 million to be their number five starter. freeing up that money might also allow them to sign durham as well as sliding a cheap young guy into the fifth starters spot. lidle is good but inconsistent. he didn't make it to the majors until he was nearly 30 and had major struggles coming out of the gate last year. i'd take him but not for much. trading him for mj who beane no doubt likes due to his defense, left handed bat, and obp would be a good move for us even if it'd mean keeping josh paul on the roster. i'd miss mj but this would be a pretty solid deal. i just hope we don't actually acquire two starters which would make it impossible for either rauch or biddle to earn a spot in the rotation.

If this rumor has any truth to it, my guess would be that its Johnson and a low cost pitcher (maybe Biddle, Ginter, Malone, Almonte, Valentine, etc.) for Lidle. That would trim the A's payroll considerably, give them MJ who kind of fits the A's mold and a young arm to possibly battle for the fifth starter's spot behind the Big Three and Lily. Lee for Lidle seems unlikely since Lee makes about the same amount of money as Lidle. And as I previously noted, it would beyond insane to deal Lee prior to knowing what Frank is doing.

If they could move MJ and a minor league pitcher (other than Rauch or Honel) for Lidle, I'd probably be in favor of it. But ONLY if that wouldn't mean that the Sox would not still be looking for a no. 2 starter. Lidle is a no.3 or 4; they'd still need someone to take the no. 2 spot. I'd feel pretty damn good about a rotation of:

Buehrle
Moyer/Colon
Lidle
Garland
Wright

with Rauch and Biddle waiting in the wings.

MarkEdward
11-13-2002, 04:08 PM
Since Peter Gammons is reporting this, I am relieved in the fact that this trade will never happen.

If (by some small chance) it did happen,... I can't put into words how bad the trade would be.

guillen4life13
11-13-2002, 04:35 PM
as some of you are saying... lidle would be todd ritchie II if we got him.

they need an established #2 pitcher. I envy Oakland because they have a staff that has 3 pitchers capable of starting opening day (mulder, zito, hudson).

if only kip wells and josh fogg still played here, we might have something (kip isn't a #2 starter, but of what i've heard about last year-i haven't looked at his stats- he would be better than lidle).

i hate kw, i hate jr, and it's frustrating the hell outta me.

Jjav829
11-13-2002, 04:41 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Cory Lidle, but not at the price of Lee. Now if it's MJ and another player, thats sounds about right. Although with KW's history that other player will end up being Borchard.

If hes looking to get rid of Lee then it better be in a Colon deal, or for a pitcher of his like.

Jamie Moyer... I'll believe it when I see him pitching in a White Sox uniform.

guillen4life13
11-13-2002, 04:44 PM
lidle for lee will absolutely anger sox fans, myself included. lee is a promising hitter with an enormous potential. lidle is a bona fide #3 or 4 pitcher. no better. certainly not #2!

jeremyb1
11-13-2002, 05:00 PM
I'd feel pretty damn good about a rotation of:

Buehrle
Moyer/Colon
Lidle
Garland
Wright

with Rauch and Biddle waiting in the wings. [/B][/QUOTE]

that rotation certainly sounds very solid. the only thing i have a problem with is a rotation that pencils both rauch and biddle out of the rotation. what happens if rauch looks like the second best pitcher on the staff in spring training? i'd be happier with guaranteeing garland the fourth spot but leaving the fifth spot open as a battle between wright, rauch, and biddle so that whichever one of those guys looks best grabs the spot. if not for a similar situation in '01 buehrle wouldn't have started the year in the rotation that year. rauch and biddle need to be given a legitimate shot to be in our rotation if they can consistently pitch as well as they did at the end of last season. if one of them earns a spot at the expense of wright, i think wright would be a tremendous reliever.

MarkEdward
11-13-2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I'd feel pretty damn good about a rotation of:

Buehrle
Moyer/Colon
Lidle
Garland
Wright

with Rauch and Biddle waiting in the wings.

Why is everyone assuming the Sox will pick up Moyer or Colon after trading for Lidle? If Lidle is brought in, he'll be expected to be the number 2 starter (however flawed that logic may be). I can't see the Sox spending more money on another starter after acquiring the 2 million dollar Lidle.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Why is everyone assuming the Sox will pick up Moyer or Colon after trading for Lidle? If Lidle is brought in, he'll be expected to be the number 2 starter (however flawed that logic may be). I can't see the Sox spending more money on another starter after acquiring the 2 million dollar Lidle.


This is a good point....I think we get one of the three mentioned and Lidle is obviously number 3 on that list...If we did get two of them that would make either wright or garland availble or already gone(if it was Colon we got)

OneDog
11-14-2002, 12:18 PM
WE WILL NOT GET COLON

Colon is a right handed power pitcher with a proven track record who would be a perfect complement to Buerhle. This move would make too much sense which is why the Sox won't get Colon.

:KW

I was not hired to use the brain God gave and make sensible decisions


:reinsy
Good job Kenny