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RichH55
11-12-2002, 01:00 PM
I know Frank Thomas isnt the MVP he used to be, his numbers are down, etc....but 17th on the list of baseball's FAs? I mean Reggie Sanders is above him, that just hurts
msn.espn.go.com/mlb/s/top50.html (http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/s/top50.html)

RichH55
11-12-2002, 01:04 PM
I'd also like to point out Royce didn't make the top 50.....cmon....he's already number one in our hearts, and he should be the best FA out there as well :D:

duke of dorwood
11-12-2002, 02:13 PM
He always will be.....................


:thechoice

duke of dorwood
11-12-2002, 02:17 PM
My his stock has fallen. Behind Jose Hernandez?

doublem23
11-12-2002, 02:39 PM
Remember the source...

:boston
They employ me to respond to emails and letters about baseball in Boston!

Foulke You
11-12-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
My his stock has fallen. Behind Jose Hernandez?

I was thinking the same thing. How do you put Frank behind Hernandez, Sanders, Alfonzo, and Finley? Is there one batting title or MVP between the four of them?

hold2dibber
11-12-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I was thinking the same thing. How do you put Frank behind Hernandez, Sanders, Alfonzo, and Finley? Is there one batting title or MVP between the four of them?

I think part of the reason for the ranking was the fact that he is strictly a DH; Finley plays an excellent CF, Alfonzo is/was a good defender who can play several infield positions. I don't know whether Sanders is a good defender, but he does play the field. Still, I personally think (and I am, of course, entirely biased) that Frank has a chance to put up monster numbers next year, far beyond anything any of those other guys could ever reach.

RKMeibalane
11-12-2002, 08:11 PM
Also, I think the media's perception of Frank has something to do with his ranking. I realize that they are supposed to provide objective coverage, but that rarely happens anymore. None of the players named were involved in clubhouse problems or distractions last season. It's possible that ESPN thinks that teams don't want to add Thomas because of his attitude, even though I don't think they would have anything to worry about. Frank's moodiness is a direct result of the Chicago media pushing his buttons.

chisox06
11-12-2002, 08:21 PM
It may not be accurate but it doesnt surprise me. Frank has done nothing good the last 2 years. All he has done is gotten injured , wined about his contract and caused verbal battles in the dugout, right now Frank is a virus that the sox will not be able to get rid of.

RKMeibalane
11-12-2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
It may not be accurate but it doesnt surprise me. Frank has done nothing good the last 2 years. All he has done is gotten injured , wined about his contract and caused verbal battles in the dugout, right now Frank is a virus that the sox will not be able to get rid of.

I'm wondering if this is really bc2k in disguise.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 09:49 PM
I don't know if he is a virus, and far be it for me to defend Frank. I am ready for him and his caboose to leave town, but unfortunately if you are a surly player like Bonds but you hit 60-70 hrs people put up with you. You can't hit 250 28hr 95 ribbies and cry woe is me when you tell people you are one of the greatest hitters of all time. I think perhaps his early success has hurt him (no pun) because he has not dealt with adversity to well.


NYSF

Daver
11-12-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I don't know if he is a virus, and far be it for me to defend Frank. I am ready for him and his caboose to leave town, but unfortunately if you are a surly player like Bonds but you hit 60-70 hrs people put up with you. You can't hit 250 28hr 95 ribbies and cry woe is me when you tell people you are one of the greatest hitters of all time. I think perhaps his early success has hurt him (no pun) because he has not dealt with adversity to well.


NYSF

How long did it take Mo Vaughn to come back from a torn triceps muscle?

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 10:00 PM
Who said that Mo is back, I watched that guy in person and he makes frank look like Rudy Law

NYSF

Daver
11-12-2002, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Who said that Mo is back, I watched that guy in person and he makes frank look like Rudy Law

NYSF

You do a fine job of making my point for me............

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 10:08 PM
I don't think so dave, that's why Mo is not in Anaheim getting fit for a WS ring. So how long would you have us wait for Frank to finally get back to the mountain top?

NYSF

Daver
11-12-2002, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I don't think so dave, that's why Mo is not in Anaheim getting fit for a WS ring. So how long would you have us wait for Frank to finally get back to the mountain top?

NYSF

I would have spotted him last season at least,the numbers he put up in Sept. showed us this guy is not done yet.

And in todays market he is basically a bargain at ten mil a year,when you put into perspective the fact that Jim Thome will probably get offered fifteen mil a year from the Phillies.

Is Jim Thome a better hitter than Frank,based on career numbers so far?

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 10:27 PM
I understand where you are going Dave, but Mo and Frank did most of their damage when their team was done. Thats not to say that Franks numbers were not respectable, but I think we have guys on the team that can give us that.

10 Mill a year is a bargin, lets spend it on pitching and defense not a designated hitter. I mean Edgar Martinez is taking a pay cut and he has been as consistent a hitter over the last 8 years as anyone.

NYSF

Daver
11-12-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I understand where you are going Dave, but Mo and Frank did most of their damage when their team was done. Thats not to say that Franks numbers were not respectable, but I think we have guys on the team that can give us that.

10 Mill a year is a bargin, lets spend it on pitching and defense not a designated hitter. I mean Edgar Martinez is taking a pay cut and he has been as consistent a hitter over the last 8 years as anyone.

NYSF

Umm your wrong on that,one of Frank's best seasons was in 2000,when they won the most games in the American League,and Frank got robbed of the MVP award.

Take Frank off this team and you have no legitmate DH,and you give the opposing pitcher the opportunity to pitch around Magglio,because Paul Konerko rarely takes a walk.

I am not the world's biggest Frank Thomas fan,but I will give him the credit for what he does for the line-up.

bc2k
11-12-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I know Frank Thomas isnt the MVP he used to be, his numbers are down, etc....but 17th on the list of baseball's FAs? I mean Reggie Sanders is above him, that just hurts
msn.espn.go.com/mlb/s/top50.html (http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/s/top50.html)

Perhaps Frank's unique free agency is the reason he is listed 17th. His contract is already written, teams cannot negotiate salary with him.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 10:45 PM
Dave I will give you that his best year did coincide with the teams success, but alot of guys played over their heads that year and haven't approached those numbers since, pitchers included. (I'm not saying Frank did, but it helped that others around him did)

But if you think Frank is some feared hitter in this lineup you are dreaming. Pitchers are much more afraid of Pauly, and Maggs which is why he keeps that #3 spot. JM hoping to get him more fastballs to hit, because Frank hasn't hit a curve or a slider since 2000.

Carlos Lee will be a servicable DH in this league, could he contribute 270 25 100? absolutely. Look at the Yankees, Mariners, Twins, and even the 2002 A's -balanced lineups that get basehits move guys over and do the little things.

NYSF

Daver
11-12-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Perhaps Frank's unique free agency is the reason he is listed 17th. His contract is already written, teams cannot negotiate salary with him.

You are wrong on that one bc2k,if Frank signs with another team the contract he has with the Sox will be voided,it is only guaranteed if he remains with the Sox or if they trade him,he can sign as a free agent for whatever contract the signee offers.

raul12
11-12-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan

Carlos Lee will be a servicable DH in this league, could he contribute 270 25 100? absolutely. Look at the Yankees, Mariners, Twins, and even the 2002 A's -balanced lineups that get basehits move guys over and do the little things.

NYSF

huh? people are here crucifying frank for hitting 250 28 95 after tearing his triceps and you say CLee is a serviceable dh at 270 25 100? i never cease to be amazed at people's thought process.

Daver
11-12-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Dave I will give you that his best year did coincide with the teams success, but alot of guys played over their heads that year and haven't approached those numbers since, pitchers included. (I'm not saying Frank did, but it helped that others around him did)

But if you think Frank is some feared hitter in this lineup you are dreaming. Pitchers are much more afraid of Pauly, and Maggs which is why he keeps that #3 spot. JM hoping to get him more fastballs to hit, because Frank hasn't hit a curve or a slider since 2000.

Carlos Lee will be a servicable DH in this league, could he contribute 270 25 100? absolutely. Look at the Yankees, Mariners, Twins, and even the 2002 A's -balanced lineups that get basehits move guys over and do the little things.

NYSF

I would tell you to compare Frank's walks with Paul's,that tells a lot of the story.

You can speculate those numbers for Carlos all you want,the fact is he has been at this level for 4 years and has never put them up,nor has he been able to draw a walk on a consistent basis,because there is not a pitcher in the league that is afraid to pitch to him,and I can gaurantee you that there are plenty of pitchers throughout the league that ARE afraid to pitch to Frank.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 10:56 PM
I don't really know why we are all worried because Frank will be back, their is no way in hell he is going to get the money the Sox owe him from another team. Unless pride gets in the way and he just takes another deal to spite the sox, but I don't see that happening.


NYSF

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by daver
I would tell you to compare Frank's walks with Paul's,that tells a lot of the story.

You can speculate those numbers for Carlos all you want,the fact is he has been at this level for 4 years and has never put them up,nor has he been able to draw a walk on a consistent basis,because there is not a pitcher in the league that is afraid to pitch to him,and I can gaurantee you that there are plenty of pitchers throughout the league that ARE afraid to pitch to Frank.

Frank has a great ability to draw walks, maybe he should be our leadoff hitter. Who cares how many walks he draws, I need him to drive in runs.

Maybe you are right maybe carlos won't but I bet I could sign a guy for less money and he could put up those numbers and not complain about clubhouse politics.

NYSF

Daver
11-12-2002, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan


Maybe you are right maybe carlos won't but I bet I could sign a guy for less money and he could put up those numbers and not complain about clubhouse politics.

NYSF

Show me who you can sign for less money that can put up those numbers,could be interesting.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 11:13 PM
How much do you think John Olerud will draw? or Steve Finley? even if you spent as much you would greatly increase the versatility of your lineup. Both can hit and are good in the field.

NYSF

RKMeibalane
11-12-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by daver
Show me who you can sign for less money that can put up those numbers,could be interesting.

Agreed. It will virtually impossible to replace Thomas' bat in the lineup without breaking the bank. Even last season's numbers were better than what most players could compile over the course of a season.

Lee is not the answer at DH. He hasn't gotten any better since '99 and 2000. Ever since the AS Break of 2001, he hasn't been producing as consistently as most people thought he would. He came around after a slow start this past season, but he hasn't been the threat the Sox were hoping for. He will probably be traded as soon as Borchard is ready.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Agreed. It will virtually impossible to replace Thomas' bat in the lineup without breaking the bank. Even last season's numbers were better than what most players could compile over the course of a season.

Lee is not the answer at DH. He hasn't gotten any better since '99 and 2000. Ever since the AS Break of 2001, he hasn't been producing as consistently as most people thought he would. He came around after a slow start this past season, but he hasn't been the threat the Sox were hoping for. He will probably be traded as soon as Borchard is ready.

So let me get this straight we are writing off a guy who has been in the league for only four years, to keep a player who is in his declining years. Frank's best years are for sure behind him, we don't know how Carlos is going to turn out.

NYSF

Daver
11-12-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
So let me get this straight we are writing off a guy who has been in the league for only four years, to keep a player who is in his declining years. Frank's best years are for sure behind him, we don't know how Carlos is going to turn out.

NYSF

That is not what he is saying,Borchard will replace Carlos in the line-up,so you are trading a four year guy with a questionable plate pressance for a rookie with a questionable plate prescence but with the upside of having light tower power from both sides of the plate,and the SO ratio is not that much different between the two.

And saying that Thomas is in his declining years,last time I checked Barry Bonds is older than Frank and just won an MVP award.....

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by raul12
huh? people are here crucifying frank for hitting 250 28 95 after tearing his triceps and you say CLee is a serviceable dh at 270 25 100? i never cease to be amazed at people's thought process.

Last time I checked Carlos isn't making 10 million dollars a year.
So why would you pay Frank Thomas for that production. What thought process are you using?

NYSF

guillen4life13
11-12-2002, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
It may not be accurate but it doesnt surprise me. Frank has done nothing good the last 2 years. All he has done is gotten injured , wined about his contract and caused verbal battles in the dugout, right now Frank is a virus that the sox will not be able to get rid of.


Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I don't know if he is a virus, and far be it for me to defend Frank. I am ready for him and his caboose to leave town, but unfortunately if you are a surly player like Bonds but you hit 60-70 hrs people put up with you. You can't hit 250 28hr 95 ribbies and cry woe is me when you tell people you are one of the greatest hitters of all time. I think perhaps his early success has hurt him (no pun) because he has not dealt with adversity to well.


NYSF


before you know, you will find yourselfs sparking a helluva lot of controversy. beware.

and here's the thing about carlos. he is surely physically capable of doing .270, 25, 100. here's the thing. he hasn't done it before. he's never had a 100 rbi season. how many has frank had? a recovering frank had more rbi than carlos has had in a season. just think of what frank could do next year.

a logical and well based response to my above statement could be "just think of what carlos could do next year." here's what i will have to say: carlos hasn't done it before, and we cannot count on him putting up MVP caliber numbers when he's never even made the all star team. and another thing: yes, carlos bunts. but here's the thing... frank scores runs as well as bats them in. he's had quite a few 100 run seasons. carlos has a history of baserunning errors that have had major impacts on games.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
before you know, you will find yourselfs sparking a helluva lot of controversy. beware.

and here's the thing about carlos. he is surely physically capable of doing .270, 25, 100. here's the thing. he hasn't done it before. he's never had a 100 rbi season. how many has frank had? a recovering frank had more rbi than carlos has had in a season. just think of what frank could do next year.

a logical and well based response to my above statement could be "just think of what carlos could do next year." here's what i will have to say: carlos hasn't done it before, and we cannot count on him putting up MVP caliber numbers when he's never even made the all star team. and another thing: yes, carlos bunts. but here's the thing... frank scores runs as well as bats them in. he's had quite a few 100 run seasons. carlos has a history of baserunning errors that have had major impacts on games.


I will ask you the same thing, Frank has been in the league how long now? Do you guys really think he will be an MVP type player again? If you do I respect that, but I just don't see it. He does not take great care of his body, has been unwilling to take advice from those he deemed not good enough to tell him what his problem was.

As for Carlos he is a huge question mark, but after only being in the league four years is it fair to think that he won't get better. We got a guy by the name of Paul Kornerko-A couple of teams gave up on him too. With the hope that Frank may return to form, I think he is a gamble as well.


NYSF

bc2k
11-12-2002, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by daver
You are wrong on that one bc2k,if Frank signs with another team the contract he has with the Sox will be voided,it is only guaranteed if he remains with the Sox or if they trade him,he can sign as a free agent for whatever contract the signee offers.

I don't know why I said that. I have known that about his contract for a while. Brain cramp I guess.

Lip Man 1
11-12-2002, 11:49 PM
The question was asked (I'm paraphrasing) Why is Frank like he is now?

That's the million dollar question because he wasn't like that the first five, six years or so.

I was watching the 1991 seasonal highlights video that I put together and saw Frank as one of the first players out of the dugout to great Robin Ventura when he smacked that two out, 9th inning Grand Slam to beat Texas 10-8 on July 31, 1991.

It was an electric moment , all the more so because Bill Murray (noted Cub fan) was seated right behind home plate shaking his head, and because Thomas physically lifted Ventura off his feet and gave him a bear hug carrying him around the home plate area.

Perhaps Cory Snyder had it right when he told me in the interview I did with him that he thought the losing changed Thomas. Remember his first five years in the league Thomas experienced nothing but winning seasons, pennant races or action in the playoffs.

Maybe he just felt that the Sox would never make a World Series and started concentrating on personal goals.

Just a thought...

Lip

NewyorkSoxFan
11-13-2002, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The question was asked (I'm paraphrasing) Why is Frank like he is now?

That's the million dollar question because he wasn't like that the first five, six years or so.

I was watching the 1991 seasonal highlights video that I put together and saw Frank as one of the first players out of the dugout to great Robin Ventura when he smacked that two out, 9th inning Grand Slam to beat Texas 10-8 on July 31, 1991.

It was an electric moment , all the more so because Bill Murray (noted Cub fan) was seated right behind home plate shaking his head, and because Thomas physically lifted Ventura off his feet and gave him a bear hug carrying him around the home plate area.

Perhaps Cory Snyder had it right when he told me in the interview I did with him that he thought the losing changed Thomas. Remember his first five years in the league Thomas experienced nothing but winning seasons, pennant races or action in the playoffs.

Maybe he just felt that the Sox would never make a World Series and started concentrating on personal goals.

Just a thought...

Lip




That could be the problem, but I think it was a few months ago that "Black Jack" mentioned that Frank was always absorbed with his own stats, always going over his stats before games in the clubhouse. I just think it wasn't as noticeable because we really didn't know him.

I think the success more than anything changed Frank, he seems to think he has a "right of passage" to the hall of fame because of his first 6 or 7 years in the league.

The losing certainly doesn't help because Frank although a good hitter over the years has never been accused of being a good leader on any of the teams he has been a part of. Needless to say it's much easier to overlook that when he's hitting well, and the team is winning.

Which goes to show maybe a change of scenery would do wonders for him and us.


NYSF

Dadawg_77
11-13-2002, 10:33 AM
First off, if Frank gets his swing back which he had at the end of Sept, he is the best hitter on this team and will return to his form. Which made him one of the best right handed hitters in the history of the game. A bad year for year for him was very comparable to great year for Konerko. Mags is great hitter but Frank who is on, is better.

Walks lead to a high on base percentage and you can't score unless you get on bases. Plus when Frank walks he helps out the guy behind him since now the pitcher needs to throw the trailing batter strikes. Walks while not as sexy as 60 homers, can make a huge difference in a game.

A hitter should look at his personal stats esp one of Frank's qualities. Baseball is a team but the most interval one there is. He isn't a slap hitter, he is a great contact hitter who has some power. You don't want to waste his at bat just to move runners over since the opportunity cost will be higher then what is gained. You want Frank up there trying to make solid contact and get hit every single at bat. Maybe losing has gotten to Frank but instead of trading him to get a fresh start. Why don't we put together a winning team?

voodoochile
11-13-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Last time I checked Carlos isn't making 10 million dollars a year.
So why would you pay Frank Thomas for that production. What thought process are you using?

NYSF

JR is that you?

This is exactly why the Sox will never be competitive on his watch - because it is always based on dollars per statistic. I don't care if one guy makes more dollars per RBI/R/HR/BA/OPS/ETC I just want the player who do the best job of generating those stats. As long as the team puts money over stats the team will continue to struggle. As fans, we shouldn't be worried about how much a player is making, only how well he produces and there isn't a guy on the Sox who can match Franks numbers at the position he plays when Frank is on...

voodoochile
11-13-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I will ask you the same thing, Frank has been in the league how long now? Do you guys really think he will be an MVP type player again? If you do I respect that, but I just don't see it. He does not take great care of his body, has been unwilling to take advice from those he deemed not good enough to tell him what his problem was.

NYSF

He doesn't take good care of his body? What are you basing this on? Frank has always worked out, has never had a major weight problem and practices his swing in the off season. Do you have any evidence for this, or are you basing it on your own opinion?

NewyorkSoxFan
11-13-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He doesn't take good care of his body? What are you basing this on? Frank has always worked out, has never had a major weight problem and practices his swing in the off season. Do you have any evidence for this, or are you basing it on your own opinion?

Go back and take a look at Frank in the early 90's even the mid 90's and look at him over the last 3 years. He has gained significant weight. If you say he works out what is he doing, he disappears every off-season not to reappear until spring training of which he never goes in early to get in better shape.

Even when he hurt his tricep muscle they couldn't get him to come back to chicago to check to see how his rehab was going. Perhaps if he was more agile and not so bulky it would help his hitting stroke, but we would never know because Frank is so stubborn about anything that he doesn't think is a good idea for Frank.

steff
11-13-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Go back and take a look at Frank in the early 90's even the mid 90's and look at him over the last 3 years. He has gained significant weight. If you say he works out what is he doing, he disappears every off-season not to reappear until spring training of which he never goes in early to get in better shape.

Even when he hurt his tricep muscle they couldn't get him to come back to chicago to check to see how his rehab was going. Perhaps if he was more agile and not so bulky it would help his hitting stroke, but we would never know because Frank is so stubborn about anything that he doesn't think is a good idea for Frank.


ROTFLMAO!!

Yeah.. he gained weight.. about 30lbs of MUSCLE! Now.. if you bothered to do some research you'd know that Frank was in California the past 2 off seasons training with the trainer that he had early in his career at the BLESSING of the White Sox.


But for chits & giggles... can you post the link to the story about Frank refusing to come back to Chicago..?

Champ Summers
11-13-2002, 12:07 PM
why are so many people wailing on the best thing that has happened to our team in perhaps forever when he just came back from an injury to put up very repectable numbers? some people just don't realize what they have in front of them. frank will be back next year, and i would be willing to bet something outrageous that he hits over 30 HR, 100 RBI, and over .300 for the WHITE SOX. sign up for your bets...

NewyorkSoxFan
11-13-2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
ROTFLMAO!!

Yeah.. he gained weight.. about 30lbs of MUSCLE! Now.. if you bothered to do some research you'd know that Frank was in California the past 2 off seasons training with the trainer that he had early in his career at the BLESSING of the White Sox.


But for chits & giggles... can you post the link to the story about Frank refusing to come back to Chicago..?

Well a lot of good it has done him, he couldn't play first early in his career, so let's add more weight so it is completely impossible for me to play the field. Oh I forgot Frank announced he was ready to DH full time now, don't play him in the field.

Also do your homework and go back and see what Frank was doing when he completely distanced himself from the team in 01 and didn't see the team until late in the year when they were in Anaheim. I am so tired of everyone painting Frank as this poor soul that is getting a raw deal.

NYSF

steff
11-13-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Also do your homework and go back and see what Frank was doing when he completely distanced himself from the team in 01 and didn't see the team until late in the year when they were in Anaheim. I am so tired of everyone painting Frank as this poor soul that is getting a raw deal. NYSF


No one, at least I know I didn't and don't remember reading it here, stated that Frank is a poor soul. If that's what you think you might want to read through some past threads about him. Frank has his issues, everyone is in agreement on that. But his crap year is a record year for over half the rest of the league. You don't pat him on the butt and send him on his way without FIRST securing a replacement.

As for where he was.. he was in rehab IN California. I already said that...

steff
11-13-2002, 02:45 PM
Oh NYSF... did you happen to have that link..??

pearso66
11-13-2002, 03:25 PM
i have to agree with champ summers, i will make the same bold statement he made of 30/100/.300, if not that, close, now tell me, would you rather have that in your lineup or in the opposing line up, exactly, your line up.

Frank had an off year, and as everyone is stating, he was better than A lot of other players, he admits he cant play the field, at least he's not whining to play the field, and then hurt us with errors. plus id much rather have him as DH than carlos lee

Dadawg_77
11-13-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Well a lot of good it has done him, he couldn't play first early in his career, so let's add more weight so it is completely impossible for me to play the field. Oh I forgot Frank announced he was ready to DH full time now, don't play him in the field.

Also do your homework and go back and see what Frank was doing when he completely distanced himself from the team in 01 and didn't see the team until late in the year when they were in Anaheim. I am so tired of everyone painting Frank as this poor soul that is getting a raw deal.

NYSF

NYSF, you shattering some of your creditability here. There are many baseball players if not a great majority who rehab away from the team. There are two reasons for this, one the injured player doesn't want to be there, not because he dislikes his teammates but because it pains hims to watch the game from the dugout. Two, the guys playing don't want the injured guy around all the time since they tend to be depressed since they are not playing and show to the able players how fragile they can be. Plus since most baseball players don't live in the city they play for, they usually go home to spend time with their family while rehabbing. I think harboring on where Frank rehab or not is really a case of trying to throw as much at the wall and seeing what sticks.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-13-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
NYSF, you shattering some of your creditability here. There are many baseball players if not a great majority who rehab away from the team. There are two reasons for this, one the injured player doesn't want to be there, not because he dislikes his teammates but because it pains hims to watch the game from the dugout. Two, the guys playing don't want the injured guy around all the time since they tend to be depressed since they are not playing and show to the able players how fragile they can be. Plus since most baseball players don't live in the city they play for, they usually go home to spend time with their family while rehabbing. I think harboring on where Frank rehab or not is really a case of trying to throw as much at the wall and seeing what sticks.

We may never really know what goes on behind closed doors with Frank and his teammates. Maybe you guys are right he was just rehabbing someplace else, however in everyones haste to defend Frank they miss the point. I think what we saw with Pauly is just the tip of the iceberg with how they feel about him. He happens to be the only guy with gonads enough to verbalize, although it should have been face to face with Frank not the media.

My point about Frank is not to downplay his hitting (he has been a great hitter), or any of the other amazing things he did early in a Sox uniform. But Frank has always got a reason why he doesn't do certain things.

a) Frank has a beef with JM because he doesn't want to do shuttle run.

b) Frank no longer wants to play first base, he wants to concentrate on his hitting.

c) Frank will only work with a hitting coach of his choice Von Joshua didn't have enough experience.

So don't miss the point of my issue with Frank, and I guarantee you that when he comes to spring training this year he's gonna have something else that's pissed him off. But of course none of it's his fault.

NYSF

NewyorkSoxFan
11-13-2002, 07:51 PM
Lest we not forget:

d) Frank doesn't show up to spring training because of a stupid contract that he signed. But that wasn't his fault either.

NYSF

voodoochile
11-13-2002, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan


a) Frank has a beef with JM because he doesn't want to do shuttle run.

b) Frank no longer wants to play first base, he wants to concentrate on his hitting.

c) Frank will only work with a hitting coach of his choice Von Joshua didn't have enough experience.

So don't miss the point of my issue with Frank, and I guarantee you that when he comes to spring training this year he's gonna have something else that's pissed him off. But of course none of it's his fault.

NYSF


A)He ran it later in training camp. He was recovering from surgery to his foot and it was well documented that he did run it once he regained his strength and had some time to get comfortable

B)Frank is not as good a first baseman as Paulie. He was actually helping the team when he made this decision.

C)Maybe the team needs to consider the idea of bringing in someone to work with Frank of his choosing. What's more important, Von's ego or Frank getting back on track?

Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Lest we not forget:

d) Frank doesn't show up to spring training because of a stupid contract that he signed. But that wasn't his fault either.

NYSF

D) Frank was on time to training camp that year, but the Sox reported early. According to the MLB CBA, Frank was not late.

You have been reading too many newspapers that love to rip on Frank and the Sox. Open your eyes and see the truth. Moronotti and the shills at the Tribune are the reasons that every bad thing Frank ever does is blown out of proportion and nothing that could possibly be a valid excuse is ever widely disseminated to the public.

People still think Frank left the team in a huff September of 1999 because of these idiots. In reality he was getting a deposit the size of a walnut taken out of his foot which doctors said would have kept most people from even walking. It was that surgery that Frank was still recovering from when the shuttle drill situation got blown out of proportion. If you want to continue to believe the people who have a lot to gain by creating controversy and nothing to gain from "good news" (= no news) feel free. Me personally, I will try to give the best player in Sox history some credit and some slack...

Daver
11-13-2002, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


C)Maybe the team needs to consider the idea of bringing in someone to work with Frank of his choosing. What's more important, Von's ego or Frank getting back on track?



Von was the first one to say that Frank would be better off seeking out Walt Hrniak,and for the record after that Frank had no problem working with Von Joshua,till he was made the scapegoat for the Sox not being able to hit in the early part of 2001,the fact that it continued through 2002 after Von left has been glossed over by the media.

guillen4life13
11-13-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
A)He ran it later in training camp. He was recovering from surgery to his foot and it was well documented that he did run it once he regained his strength and had some time to get comfortable

B)Frank is not as good a first baseman as Paulie. He was actually helping the team when he made this decision.

C)Maybe the team needs to consider the idea of bringing in someone to work with Frank of his choosing. What's more important, Von's ego or Frank getting back on track?



D) Frank was on time to training camp that year, but the Sox reported early. According to the MLB CBA, Frank was not late.

You have been reading too many newspapers that love to rip on Frank and the Sox. Open your eyes and see the truth. Moronotti and the shills at the Tribune are the reasons that every bad thing Frank ever does is blown out of proportion and nothing that could possibly be a valid excuse is ever widely disseminated to the public.

People still think Frank left the team in a huff September of 1999 because of these idiots. In reality he was getting a deposit the size of a walnut taken out of his foot which doctors said would have kept most people from even walking. It was that surgery that Frank was still recovering from when the shuttle drill situation got blown out of proportion. If you want to continue to believe the people who have a lot to gain by creating controversy and nothing to gain from "good news" (= no news) feel free. Me personally, I will try to give the best player in Sox history some credit and some slack...

great words from a knowledgeable fan.

NYSF, I can understand why you feel that we are... blindly supporting frank (that's the impression I get). Here's the thing: Frank has proven that when healthy, he is arguably the best hitter in the A.L. (up there with A-Rod). Some of us don't agree with your contention that he is not a team player. He played with a golf ball sized bone spur-- for the team. if he was so full of himself, he would have given up on the season as soon as he felt the pain. The reason he did not play through a triceps injury is because I'm sure he knew that playing through that would hurt the team more than help it.
The contentions about his weight I also have arguments against. As I think voodoo said, it's all muscle. honestly, I think that maybe frank should lose some of the muscle so that possibly his swing could be more fluid... but i dunno... i'm not a hitting coach or anything.
And regarding him going to a different hitting coach, here's what I have to say: Walt Hriniak has a whole different hitting style. It is quite obvious that Frank's swing motion is a helluva lot different than most hitters. He hits off his front foot, instead of the back. Hriniak is pretty much the only hitting coach who has consistently been able to keep Frank on track and have his swing in the best working order. Von Joshua and Gary Ward would not have been able to help him for the above reasons.

the "poor soul/raw deal" thing? lemme just say something that you may not have remembered. frank is one of the most criticized sports icons right now (imo).
1. the media seems to just love getting him pissed off.
2. He is quite arguably the best hitter of the '90's, but he doesn't get the recognition.
3. Last year he went through a divorce and the death of his father, who was supposedly very close to Frank. Those are hard things to take, all at once.
4. He is portrayed by the media as a selfish, stuck up, and rude whiner, when he's got crap going on in his life that would make you a lil cranky too.

just my opinion.

chisox06
11-13-2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
First off, if Frank gets his swing back which he had at the end of Sept, he is the best hitter on this team and will return to his form. Which made him one of the best right handed hitters in the history of the game. A bad year for year for him was very comparable to great year for Konerko. Mags is great hitter but Frank who is on, is better.

Walks lead to a high on base percentage and you can't score unless you get on bases. Plus when Frank walks he helps out the guy behind him since now the pitcher needs to throw the trailing batter strikes. Walks while not as sexy as 60 homers, can make a huge difference in a game.

A hitter should look at his personal stats esp one of Frank's qualities. Baseball is a team but the most interval one there is. He isn't a slap hitter, he is a great contact hitter who has some power. You don't want to waste his at bat just to move runners over since the opportunity cost will be higher then what is gained. You want Frank up there trying to make solid contact and get hit every single at bat. Maybe losing has gotten to Frank but instead of trading him to get a fresh start. Why don't we put together a winning team?

Thats a big if. Maybe I'm a little to harsh but I have given up on the guy, he shows no team leadership, and it seems that every year he seems more and more concerned about his contract than doing what it takes to win. Like I said, the guy is a virus, dump him.

Daver
11-13-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Thats a big if. Maybe I'm a little to harsh but I have given up on the guy, he shows no team leadership, and it seems that every year he seems more and more concerned about his contract than doing what it takes to win. Like I said, the guy is a virus, dump him.

A virus?


Introducing your 2003 Chicago White Sox...

At DH....Frank Thomas.....

chisox06
11-13-2002, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by daver
A virus?


Introducing your 2003 Chicago White Sox...

At DH....Frank Thomas.....

I sure hope not, but I dont doubt it. Hey I hope the guy proves me wrong.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-14-2002, 07:16 AM
A)He ran it later in training camp. He was recovering from surgery to his foot and it was well documented that he did run it once he regained his strength and had some time to get comfortable

B)Frank is not as good a first baseman as Paulie. He was actually helping the team when he made this decision.

C)Maybe the team needs to consider the idea of bringing in someone to work with Frank of his choosing. What's more important, Von's ego or Frank getting back on track?

Quote:
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Lest we not forget:

d) Frank doesn't show up to spring training because of a stupid contract that he signed. But that wasn't his fault either.



D) Frank was on time to training camp that year, but the Sox reported early. According to the MLB CBA, Frank was not late.





Voodoo,

Whoopdee doo so what he ran it after creating a major stir in front of the team and the media. PLEASE SPARE ME!

Frank at first if you recall was not happy about not playing first base when we all knew he was barely adequate, but then after making errors and looking ridiculous he decided that he should only DH becacuse "He was born to hit".

I don't care what the cba says he should have been in camp with his teammates or handled his contract privately either way once again he was a distraction to a team that had a chance to win their division.

Stop making excuses for this guy-Scottie Pippen won six titles and never got a ride like this. He got blamed for everything, yet Frank seemingly to some of you is being picked on. Well poor old Frank

NYSF

Kilroy
11-14-2002, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Voodoo,

Whoopdee doo so what he ran it after creating a major stir in front of the team and the media. PLEASE SPARE ME!

Frank at first if you recall was not happy about not playing first base when we all knew he was barely adequate, but then after making errors and looking ridiculous he decided that he should only DH becacuse "He was born to hit".

I don't care what the cba says he should have been in camp with his teammates or handled his contract privately either way once again he was a distraction to a team that had a chance to win their division.

Stop making excuses for this guy-Scottie Pippen won six titles and never got a ride like this. He got blamed for everything, yet Frank seemingly to some of you is being picked on. Well poor old Frank

NYSF

Big ****ing deal, he created a stir in training camp. That had nothing to do with what transpired on the field that year. But, in Chicago, all ills point back at Frank Thomas.

I remember in 1985, the Bears went 18-1 that season w/ a Superbowl as the capper. But that season started off w/ two players making a distraction based on their contract disputes. They went on to hold out the entire season. And it was 2 key players in Al Harris and Todd Bell, so they got coverage.

How the hell could the Bears win a superbowl with that kind of distraction in camp? Answer: It doesn't mean ****. If they win, somehow they managed to overcome the distraction, if they lose, the distraction killed them. If you believe that...

NewyorkSoxFan
11-14-2002, 08:19 AM
Your analogy holds no weight. Last time I checked that Bears team had 3 or 4 Hall of Fame players on it. I think that Sox team was made of alot of 2nd and 3rd year players if that.

That Bears team had chemistry and fearless leaders something the Sox haven't had probably since Fisk and that crew left. The 83 team had lots of vets that were used to distractions and would have put Frank in his place. So if you are gonna make a comparison make a good one.

NYSF

Iwritecode
11-14-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by chisox06
Thats a big if. Maybe I'm a little to harsh but I have given up on the guy, he shows no team leadership, and it seems that every year he seems more and more concerned about his contract than doing what it takes to win. Like I said, the guy is a virus, dump him.

Can someone please point out to me where it is written in stone that the most popular/best player on the team has to be the team leader?

voodoochile
11-14-2002, 11:12 AM
Stop making excuses for this guy-Scottie Pippen won six titles and never got a ride like this. He got blamed for everything, yet Frank seemingly to some of you is being picked on. Well poor old Frank.

Oh, I am so glad someone finally brought this up. I was just thinking of Pippen last night. I like the analogy, because they seem like similar level stars in their respective sports.

Answer me this..

When was the last time Pippen got booed unmercifully for an entire season when coming back from a career threatening injury? He had the gun incident. He sat out the last 1.8 second of game 6 of a playoff series, because he didn't get the shot called for him. He wasn't friendly with the media. He earned a reputation as "no-tippin Pippen" among the bars he hung out at. He whined about his contract. Yet everyone in Chicago loved the guy. Wanted him to play here forever. Why?

Because the media allowed those problems to blow over. They concentrated on what he did for the team and not on what he did off the court. Frank gets the raw end of the stick and you swollow it whole. Go ahead, enjoy your Frank bashing mentality.

I remember how Phil Jackson handled Pippen and admire him for it. Frank gets a manger in Manuel who talks a lot to the press about Franks struggles. He actually adds to the problem instead of going out of the way to defuse it. Remember what Phil said after Scotty sat out those 1.8 seconds? I parapharse: "Scotty got all confused about the moment. He saw this as his chance to be the team leader and when it didn't go his way he got upset. I don't blame him for wanting that. It was a big moment for him emotionally." Then when asked if Scotty would be benched or fined, Phil said the situation would be handled internally.

Yes, superstars deserve special treatment. Not only guys like Frank and Scotty but anyone who night in and night out carries your team and is among the league elite deserves to be given some slack. They deserve to have a manager who will stand behind them and find out what is going on inside their head and help bring the situation down a notch. Great managers do that and in the end they help minimize stories, not create them.

If Frank had hit over .300 last year, you and all your Frank hating cohorts would be singing his praises and wondering why the Sox were trying to run him out of town, but because he didn't, all of you want him on the first bus out of town and you use these excuses as the reason why. At least stand up and call it like it is, because Chicago fans have put up with Rodman for cripes sake, I think we can handle Frank...

Dadawg_77
11-14-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh, I am so glad someone finally brought this up. I was just thinking of Pippen last night. I like the analogy, because they seem like similar level stars in their respective sports.



I completly disagree with that statement. Scotty is a sidekick, where Frank is(hopefully)/was the whole fn show. Maggs and Robin are comparable to Scotty, not Frank. Let us not forget a certain 6-6 guard from UNC. Scotty won six rings because Scotty provide great support to him.

voodoochile
11-14-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I completly disagree with that statement. Scotty is a sidekick, where Frank is(hopefully)/was the whole fn show. Maggs and Robin are comparable to Scotty, not Frank. Let us not forget a certain 6-6 guard from UNC. Scotty won six rings because Scotty provide great support to him.

I am talking about the way they are treated by the media. From that perspective, they are similar. Their is no way to compare baseball players to basketball players because the two generate much different levels of superstars, imo. The NBA thrives on stars, so a secondary star in the NBA is probably equivalent to a top level star in another sport. The fact that there are only 5 guys on the court and on every play they all touch the ball makes it easier to hype the players. Baseball has very few "superstars" and none of them are on the level of the NBA's elite when it comes to name recognition and endorsement contracts.

hold2dibber
11-14-2002, 11:49 AM
Here's my take:

(1) There is enough evidence, IMHO, that Frank is not the perfect teammate, that he can be selfish sometimes and rubs some people the wrong way to conclude that there is at least some truth to these criticisms.

(2) Frank also is lousy when dealing with the media. He puts his foot in his mouth quite a bit and because of this (and the first point above), the media picks on him. Things have snowballed on him to the point where he is a big media target and things get blown out of proportion. But that doesn't change the first point, it only means he gets more criticism for it than he deserves (though he does deserve some).

(3) Frank has bounced back from poor seasons before - see 2000 as an example. Plus he hit the hell out of the ball at the end of last year and was coming off a severe injury. Thus, there is reason to think he will be a potent offensive threat next year. And there is no one else in the organization who has the potential for a monster year that Frank does in '03. And even if he only replicates his '02 numbers, he's better than anyone we have who could replace him. The people who slam Frank and want him gone, I believe, use their dislike for Frank's (perceived) personality/whining/selfishness but ignore the fact that he is, by far, the best option we have. Do you really think we'd be better off with "great guy, ideal teammate" Jeff Liefer at DH than "selfish" Frank?

(4) "Leadership" and "being a great teammate" are b.s. reasons for ripping Frank. First, as I note above, I think Frank's deficiencies in these areas have probably been blown out of proportion. But even if they haven't, the Sox won in '93, '94 and '00 with Frank as a teammate. The Giants (and Pirates before them) consistently win with Bonds who, by all accounts, is a selfish, arrogant, crappy teammate, stand-off-ish kind of guy. If Frank puts up the numbers, nobody cares about what type of teammate he is. Every team needs leadership, and I think the Sox have that in PK, Valentin, and Buehrle. They don't necessarily need it from Frank (as '00, '94 and '93 proved).

If you think Frank is a jerk and want him gone, admit that the reason you want him gone is because you simply don't like him, not because getting rid of him would be best for the team. There is no reasonable argument to be made that dumping Frank is best for the team in terms of Ws and Ls.

bc2k
11-14-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Champ Summers
frank will be back next year, and i would be willing to bet something outrageous that he hits over 30 HR, 100 RBI, and over .300 for the WHITE SOX. sign up for your bets...

And you can add 100+ walks to those numbers.

Dadawg_77
11-14-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
And you can add 100+ walks to those numbers.

Whats wrong with 100 walks? Just coming from you, I suspect you have some contrive reason why a 100 walks is bad.