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Lip Man 1
11-11-2002, 01:53 PM
Oh my!!! Kenny Williams is NOT going to like reading Joe Cowley's story in the Southtown today!

Here are some excerpts, courtesy of Jeff Liefer:

"Then I hope I get traded," Liefer said. "I told Kenny that more than a few times, and he told me that I wasn't going to get traded unless his socks got knocked off in a deal. He told me that teams haven't offered him enough. But if he thought so much of me, then I wouldn't have been on the bench."

"He's not making sense . Obviously, I'm only worth what people are offering, so make the deal. He's given me no clarity at all. I wanted him to say, 'Hey, you're going to have a chance to start or you'll be offered in a trade.' None of that was said."

"Now, Liefer is losing sleep over a few things. There's the Thomas situation, as well as Liefer's concerns that the Sox are headed in the wrong direction.

Thomas and former Sox second baseman Ray Durham recently took shots at the organization, as run by Williams.

Thomas insisted that Williams and his "new regime" were trying to push him out so Williams could have control, "like a Triple-A team."

Durham criticized Williams for bringing in his "friends" as coaches, alleging that everything he would say to former first-base coach Gary Pettis got back to Williams.

Liefer also painted a gloomy picture of what has been going on behind closed doors.

"What I think is we need to put the best players, coaches and front-office people out there to win," he said. "Winning is the bottom line. If it's a soap opera, then it won't work. Friendships shouldn't matter and shouldn't get people jobs. If it is a soap opera, players can see that. Trust me, we can see the drama going on with the coaches, and it's not baseball."

Williams has said Thomas needs to be more of a team player if he returns. Liefer thinks too much has been blamed on Thomas.

"You have to look up to him and respect what he's done on the field," Liefer said. "As long as he's putting up numbers, then no one will question him. There were some questionable things this year that he did and maybe because it was the numbers weren't there, but he did change the second half and worked on being more of a team player.

"Look, I put no blame on Frank on what took place this season. It's definitely not one player's fault or just Frank's fault. He wasn't the one that put the team together."

WOW

Lip

duke of dorwood
11-11-2002, 01:59 PM
Thats the only way he will get out of this mess, and I hope he does. Being a good soldier gets nothing in this organization. Just ask Joe Crede.

kermittheefrog
11-11-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"Look, I put no blame on Frank on what took place this season. It's definitely not one player's fault or just Frank's fault. He wasn't the one that put the team together."


It's funny that such a mediocre player whose career could be in jeopardy would say something so dead on.

34 Inch Stick
11-11-2002, 02:25 PM
Smart move by Liefer. If they think you are worth more than others are asking, artificially reduce your value to the team so that supply equals demand. Would we really miss Liefer if he is gone?

cheeses_h_rice
11-11-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Smart move by Liefer. If they think you are worth more than others are asking, artificially reduce your value to the team so that supply equals demand. Would we really miss Liefer if he is gone?

I wouldn't. This team has enough home run hitters, and we could probably live without the .220 average and shaky defense...

maurice
11-11-2002, 03:19 PM
It seems that, with his trade value at an all-time low, he's hankering for an outright release. He just might get his wish.

RKMeibalane
11-11-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by maurice
It seems that, with his trade value at an all-time low, he's hankering for an outright release. He just might get his wish.

For his sake, I hope that's the case. Liefer will be happier somewhere else.

hold2dibber
11-11-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Smart move by Liefer. If they think you are worth more than others are asking, artificially reduce your value to the team so that supply equals demand. Would we really miss Liefer if he is gone?

Depends - if Frank walks, Liefer will be needed (as a platoon DH/LF, batting ONLY against right handed pitching, he would be be the Sox' best option without Frank).

hold2dibber
11-11-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
For his sake, I hope that's the case. Liefer will be happier somewhere else.

Liefer will only be happier if he goes somewhere where he plays regularly. For how many teams do you think he would play regularly? Maybe Tampa Bay? Maybe Pittsburgh? Brewers? Not many teams out there would be ready to hand over a starting spot to Jeff Liefer.

MarkEdward
11-11-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Liefer will only be happier if he goes somewhere where he plays regularly. For how many teams do you think he would play regularly? Maybe Tampa Bay? Maybe Pittsburgh? Brewers? Not many teams out there would be ready to hand over a starting spot to Jeff Liefer.

Giants could probably use him in some form or another.

Liefer really shouldn't be running his mouth like this, though.

guillen4life13
11-11-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Giants could probably use him in some form or another.

Liefer really shouldn't be running his mouth like this, though.

why not? he's doing what he can because he knows the situation he's in is total bs. who can blame him. i'm really happy that sox players are saying this stuff so that maybe JR will get the hint, and will can kenny williams' sorry ass outta here.

good show lief! you got balls! :cool:

yyz
11-11-2002, 07:52 PM
Liefer is a dumbass. He's certainly not increasing his trade value by spouting off and showing himself not to be a team player. He hasn't earned the right to shoot his mouth off, because he hasn't shown himself to be very good. Who should have been sitting in favor of Liefer?

guillen4life13
11-11-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by yyz
Liefer is a dumbass. He's certainly not increasing his trade value by spouting off and showing himself not to be a team player. He hasn't earned the right to shoot his mouth off, because he hasn't shown himself to be very good. Who should have been sitting in favor of Liefer?

as a member of that team he has the right to mouth off at management, especially if it's in agreement of its current and former stars. liefer is pissed off because sox management is so unprofessional and he is pissed because he wants out of this situation, but kw isn't giving him the opportunity to get out of it. he wants a trade, but kw won't trade him. he said earlier this year (I think) that he would rather be down in AAA, but kw didn't do that. what would u do in lief's position? keep quiet? i sure as hell wouldn't. he's saying it like it is, and ray has said the same thing. as has big frank. his situation sux, he wants out of it so he can actually play the game and not just sit on the bench all the time. i don't blame him.

Kilroy
11-11-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
why not? he's doing what he can because he knows the situation he's in is total bs. who can blame him. i'm really happy that sox players are saying this stuff so that maybe JR will get the hint, and will can kenny williams' sorry ass outta here.

good show lief! you got balls! :cool:

no matter what spin you put on it, its not Williams fault that Liefer's not good enuf to beat out the guys ahead of him. The best thing for him to do would be to shut up and make it so that Jerry has to play him. But mouthing off isn't going to get him any further up the ladder.

Daver
11-11-2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
no matter what spin you put on it, its not Williams fault that Liefer's not good enuf to beat out the guys ahead of him. The best thing for him to do would be to shut up and make it so that Jerry has to play him. But mouthing off isn't going to get him any further up the ladder.


We are discussing a guy that would have a hard time denting the Devil Dogs starting line-up,not the second coming of Babe Ruth,the only reason his wish to be returned to AAA was that he would have had to clear waivers in order to do so,and someone would have claimed him for the waiver fee just to have him as a LH pinch hitter,and the Sox were not willing to give him up for nothing.

If there are any trades made by the Sox this offseason look for Lief to be a toss-in on one of them.

guillen4life13
11-11-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
no matter what spin you put on it, its not Williams fault that Liefer's not good enuf to beat out the guys ahead of him. The best thing for him to do would be to shut up and make it so that Jerry has to play him. But mouthing off isn't going to get him any further up the ladder.

Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"Look, I put no blame on Frank on what took place this season. It's definitely not one player's fault or just Frank's fault. He wasn't the one that put the team together."


liefer wasn't saying anything bout his skill in that statement. he was saying that the sox' failure in 2002 was not only Frank Thomas' fault and he was placing 2002's failure on Kenny Williams shoulders.

here is what I think. Liefer wants to play, at whatever level. I think kenny would make him happier to take him off the big league roster and put him in AAA. he apparently refuses to do that (why? liefer would like to know). so he wants a trade, or to play at the big league level if he can't play in the minors. well, he doesn't really have adequate skills to do that well, so he rots away on the bench. what I speculate is that KW doesn't want to send him to AAA because liefer would probably then become eligible for the rule 5 draft. can someone confirm that?

duke of dorwood
11-11-2002, 08:19 PM
How about Leif to NY for El Duque? They like him in NY.

guillen4life13
11-11-2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
How about Leif to NY for El Duque? They like him in NY. 7

explain. i dont get it.

Ol Aches & Pains
11-11-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Depends - if Frank walks, Liefer will be needed (as a platoon DH/LF, batting ONLY against right handed pitching, he would be be the Sox' best option without Frank).

God, that's depressing! If they're in a position where a stiff like Liefer is their best option, they might as well wave the white flag right now.

RKMeibalane
11-11-2002, 09:35 PM
I still think it's funny that Williams said he wouldn't trade Liefer unless someone "knocked his socks off" with an offer. What the hell does he expect to get in return for a bench player? As someone else mentioned, if Liefer is traded anytime soon, he will be an extra in a deal that is composed of more valuable players. He simply isn't good enough to be traded by himself, unless The Choice is the player the other team is offering.

Lip Man 1
11-11-2002, 10:02 PM
This And That....

Three Sox players (current or former) have now said "nasty" things about our "intrepid" GM. It reminds me of an old saying. "If you go to a party and 99 people tell you your drunk, you better not drive home..." I wonder what the "magic number" for Sox players speaking out is before everybody's convinced Kenny is in over his "politically correct" head.


Duke asks about a Liefer for Hernandez deal with the Yankees. Why would New York want him when "Godzilla" is signing a two year, 24 million dollar deal with them next week?

and the comment was made along the lines of "loyalty means nothing to this organization, ask Joe Crede." I would add or ask Robin Ventura.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
11-11-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
.... He simply isn't good enough to be traded by himself, unless The Choice is the player the other team is offering.

Wouldn't it be the ultimate bad joke on Sox Fans if Clayton signs with somebody, then gets traded by his new team back to the Sox!

:hitless
"You never should have given up on me in the first place. I set a fielding record that will stand forever!"

:ohno
"Don't forget your momma is proud of you, too." <sigh>

:KW
"Royce for Liefer? Hey, that knocks my socks off!"

:liefer
"Whoopee! See you later, suckers!"

maurice
11-12-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
no matter what spin you put on it, its not Williams fault that Liefer's not good enuf to beat out the guys ahead of him.

Indeed. Liefer has had a number of chances to make a significant impact on this team, starting back in 1999, and failed repeatedly. Now he's whining that he's not getting enough playing time, despite positing a meager .301 OBP / .424 SLG in 582 career at-bats. It's his fault that he's never been a regular starter. He consistently has been outplayed by better players, including Maggs, CLee, Paulie, Hurt, and even Jose Canseco.

hold2dibber
11-12-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Indeed. Liefer has had a number of chances to make a significant impact on this team, starting back in 1999, and failed repeatedly. Now he's whining that he's not getting enough playing time, despite positing a meager .301 OBP / .424 SLG in 582 career at-bats. It's his fault that he's never been a regular starter. He consistently has been outplayed by better players, including Maggs, CLee, Paulie, Hurt, and even Jose Canseco.

To the extent that Liefer is bitching and moaning because he thinks he's earned more P.T., he's wrong. To the extent that he's bitching and moaning because KW has created a clubhouse atmosphere where the players distrust and dislike the front office, well, I for one am concerned (as Lip points out, there are now 3 Sox/former Sox who have made this claim) and glad he's speaking up. Besides, I still contend that if Frank walks, Liefer will be needed (scary thought), unless the Sox make a deal or sign a FA to take over Frank's spot in the lineup.

baggio202
11-12-2002, 01:51 PM
if liefer was 23 or so i would think he was wrong...but he is almost 29 and wants out of KW's zoo...can anyone really blame the guy...if anything he was too kind in his assessment of KW...

Dan H
11-12-2002, 02:05 PM
Whether Liefer is a good player or not isn't the point. What is important is whether is he is right or not. All I know is that the organization and the Chicago sports media said the team was in good shape for 2002 because injured players would return. They returned and the team finished at 81-81, a record only a Cub fan would love. Someone should take responsibility for that. Shouldn't that be Kenny Williams and Jerry Reinsdorf and a host of others?

hold2dibber
11-12-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
Whether Liefer is a good player or not isn't the point. What is important is whether is he is right or not. All I know is that the organization and the Chicago sports media said the team was in good shape for 2002 because injured players would return. They returned and the team finished at 81-81, a record only a Cub fan would love. Someone should take responsibility for that. Shouldn't that be Kenny Williams and Jerry Reinsdorf and a host of others?

Well, there are certainly others who deserve their share of the blame - including JM, Contreras, Big Hurt, Garland, Clayton, CLee, Lofton, MJ and others. But what do you mean "take responsibility"?

ScottyTheSoxFan
11-12-2002, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Well, there are certainly others who deserve their share of the blame - including JM, Contreras, Big Hurt, Garland, Clayton, CLee, Lofton, MJ and others. But what do you mean "take responsibility"?


this is all nonsense. i blame the opponents for our bad season. THEY JUST HAD TO GO AND BEAT US, DIDNT THEY?

MarkEdward
11-12-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
why not? he's doing what he can because he knows the situation he's in is total bs. who can blame him. i'm really happy that sox players are saying this stuff so that maybe JR will get the hint, and will can kenny williams' sorry ass outta here.

good show lief! you got balls! :cool:

Liefer finished 2002 with an OPS of .668 (I know, sample size, but work with me). Liefer is a corner outfielder/infielder. He has no right to complain about playing time. In fact, Jeff should get used to limited playing time. The four corner positions are taken for next year: Konerko at first, Crede at third, Lee in left, Mags in right. God help us if Liefer becomes the DH.

Paulwny
11-12-2002, 06:09 PM
Liefer wants out. He's getting up in age and knows he never be a full time player with the sox. He probably wants to be traded to a cellar dweller and become important to that team so he can command a few more $$ then the sox are paying him. I doubt he'll ever put up any really decent numbers.
God forbid that he would have to obtain a real job when he 's done playing.

Daver
11-12-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny

God forbid that he would have to obtain a real job when he 's done playing.

There is a bit of demand out there for ditch diggers right now,I'm sure he is qualified.


:)

guillen4life13
11-12-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by daver
There is a bit of demand out there for ditch diggers right now,I'm sure he is qualified.


:)

harsh, inhumane, but funny. 8-)

but yea baggio and dan h said exactly what i was trying to say earlier on the board.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 09:43 PM
"Then I hope I get traded," Liefer said. "I told Kenny that more than a few times, and he told me that I wasn't going to get traded unless his socks got knocked off in a deal. He told me that teams haven't offered him enough. But if he thought so much of me, then I wouldn't have been on the bench."

Guys like this amaze me, he is not really proficient at anything in particular, but he complains that KW didn't put him in games. Well Moron take a look down at the end of the bench at your manager-he didn't put you in because basically you suck.

Maybe he and Parque should start rooming together--In CHARLOTTE!!

NewYorkSoxFan

longshot7
11-12-2002, 10:04 PM
didn't Jeff Abbott have a rant similar to this one about playing time. Boy, he sure proved his point when he was traded, didn't he?

NewyorkSoxFan
11-12-2002, 10:10 PM
You are right on with that one, get that guy and the horse he rode in on out of town.

NYSF

ode to veeck
11-12-2002, 10:19 PM
But (Liefer) mouthing off isn't going to get him any further up the ladder.


Ugh, gee, it did seem to work for at least both Choice and Butter last year ... at least in terms of playing time, dunno that KW has any concept of a ladder (too progressive a thought for him)... and in the process, playing the whiners cost us at least 6 or 7 games (at least)

ode to veeck
11-12-2002, 10:29 PM
Well, there are certainly others who deserve their share of the blame - including JM, Contreras, Big Hurt, Garland, Clayton, CLee, Lofton, MJ and others. But what do you mean "take responsibility"?


where'd you get that one? ... without garland and lofton alone, the sox'd been lucky to win 65 games last year

RKMeibalane
11-12-2002, 11:21 PM
I'm going to be glad when Liefer is gone. Aside from occasionally spelling Lee in left field, he really doesn't have any value. He does occasionally hit homeruns, but he has never been able to hit for average, and his pitch selection leaves much to be desired. I don't remember him drawing many walks last season, or any other year. He's had numerous opportunities to prove himself, and he hasn't accomplished anything.

The only reason his comments attracted my interest is because they deat with the ongoing drama in the Sox front-office. Liefer is the third player to complain about Williams (and others) since the summer. I'd say there are several others who feel the same way he does. After all the crap KW has pulled, I'd be surprised to find any supporters in the clubhouse. He has made too many mistakes, caused too much damage.