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View Full Version : KW going after Colon?


Jjav829
11-10-2002, 09:38 AM
Colon (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/showcase/cs-021109soxcolontalk,0,7930152.story?coll=cs%2Dhome% 2Dheadlines)

Kilroy
11-10-2002, 10:02 AM
I'm all in favor of that move, depending on the cost of course. And we all know that's where KW will likely make the screw up.

voodoochile
11-10-2002, 10:13 AM
How much did KW give up for Ritchie? How much will he give up for Colon.

I'd love to see Colon in a Sox uniform, but not at the expense of Garland, Wright and Malone...

Daver
11-10-2002, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How much did KW give up for Ritchie? How much will he give up for Colon.

I'd love to see Colon in a Sox uniform, but not at the expense of Garland, Wright and Malone...

The Expos are going to want close to the value they gave to acquire him,and that is a pretty steep price.

I can picture the asking price being Lee,Rowand,Rauch,and a couple of prospects.

WinningUgly!
11-10-2002, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by daver
The Expos are going to want close to the value they gave to acquire him,and that is a pretty steep price.

I can picture the asking price being Lee,Rowand,Rauch,and a couple of prospects.
Colon will turn 30 in May and becomes a free agent after 2003.
I have no problem with KW giving up a lot to get Colon, but he better be sure he can re-sign him before he gives up the farm.

jortafan
11-10-2002, 12:40 PM
This is exactly the kind of bold, aggressive maneuver a championship-quality organization would make to try to improve itself and bolster its chances of winning a pennant. Therefore, it's highly unlikely the clowns who run the White Sox will be able to pull it off. It would be nice if they did, even if it meant giving up a Lee and a Rauch or something along those lines. I've never understood those people who think Carlos Lee is irreplaceable. He's not a bad ballplayer, but he's not the Second Coming of Babe Ruth.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-10-2002, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Colon will turn 30 in May and becomes a free agent after 2003.
I have no problem with KW giving up a lot to get Colon, but he better be sure he can re-sign him before he gives up the farm.

Colon is an "old" 30. I think he's suffering from Junior Felix disease, an inaccurate birth certificate.

:)

kermittheefrog
11-10-2002, 01:01 PM
"We're looking for someone who has proved he can compete against American League Central teams, whether he's left-handed or right-handed,"

What the hell kind of moronic statement is that? Does he think a guy like Maddux couldn't come into the AL Central and win? You know how the AL Central is the best division in baseball and proving yourself against competition outside of it is worthless.

RichH55
11-10-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Colon is an "old" 30. I think he's suffering from Junior Felix disease, an inaccurate birth certificate.

:)


Well this very well could be true, but Colon still has some solid solid stuff left in him....but like always it depends on the cost

kermittheefrog
11-10-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Colon is an "old" 30. I think he's suffering from Junior Felix disease, an inaccurate birth certificate.

:)

Well he was two years younger before last year. I'd like to think they got his birth certificate right the second time around and he is actually 30.

Lip Man 1
11-10-2002, 09:45 PM
As one of the first fans to suggest the Sox look at Colon (after reading last month in The Sporting News about him and the team's payroll situation), I must confess that I don't envy Kenny Williams in this scenario.

I disagree with my friend Pale Hose George about Colon's "age" factor and that he's beat up...my concern is that he'll be a free agent after 2003.

Past history shows Uncle Jerry WILL NOT allow long term pitching contracts (especially after Jamie Navarro) so the odds of the Sox KEEPING Colon after the season is very slim.

What it boils down to for Williams is:

Are what the Expos going to ask for Colon worth it, for probably a single season in a Sox uniform? (I didn't know he was going to be a free agent after this upcoming season when I suggested the Sox take a long look at him)

Even WITH Colon do the Sox have a realistic chance to catch the Twins or make the playoffs as a Wild Card? (and of course that answer will depend a lot on what the Twins do with their four arbitration eligible players)

At this point, I don't know if I'd make the deal or not. To be safe, if I was Williams, I'd make sure I had other pitching trade options before coming to the table on this.

Lip

WinningUgly!
11-10-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As one of the first fans to suggest the Sox look at Colon (after reading last month in The Sporting News about him and the team's payroll situation), I must confess that I don't envy Kenny Williams in this scenario.

I disagree with my friend Pale Hose George about Colon's "age" factor and that he's beat up...my concern is that he'll be a free agent after 2003.

Past history shows Uncle Jerry WILL NOT allow long term pitching contracts (especially after Jamie Navarro) so the odds of the Sox KEEPING Colon after the season is very slim.

What it boils down to for Williams is:

Are what the Expos going to ask for Colon worth it, for probably a single season in a Sox uniform? (I didn't know he was going to be a free agent after this upcoming season when I suggested the Sox take a long look at him)

Even WITH Colon do the Sox have a realistic chance to catch the Twins or make the playoffs as a Wild Card? (and of course that answer will depend a lot on what the Twins do with their four arbitration eligible players)

At this point, I don't know if I'd make the deal or not. To be safe, if I was Williams, I'd make sure I had other pitching trade options before coming to the table on this.

Lip

I would think at the very least it would take 2 of the following..Garland, Wright, Biddle & Rauch. KW will probably need to throw in a minor leaguer on top of it, along with a Rowand/Harris type. It's worth it if they are planing on tying up Colon long term (3-4 more seasons), if not...fuhgeddaboudit!

A rotation of...
1) Buehrle
2) Colon
3) Garland/Wright (one of these will be gone)
4) Biddle/Rauch (")
5) Ritchie/Parque(yikes!)

...along with a productive lineup is more than enough to overtake the Twinkies. Without adding a Colon-caliber starter to the rotation, it ain't happening.

hold2dibber
11-11-2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I would think at the very least it would take 2 of the following..Garland, Wright, Biddle & Rauch. KW will probably need to throw in a minor leaguer on top of it, along with a Rowand/Harris type. It's worth it if they are planing on tying up Colon long term (3-4 more seasons), if not...fuhgeddaboudit!

A rotation of...
1) Buehrle
2) Colon
3) Garland/Wright (one of these will be gone)
4) Biddle/Rauch (")
5) Ritchie/Parque(yikes!)

...along with a productive lineup is more than enough to overtake the Twinkies. Without adding a Colon-caliber starter to the rotation, it ain't happening.

If the Expos do in fact have to trim payroll (and therefore have to deal Colon), the Sox won't be the only team with the Expos on speed dial. If Montreal has any brains, they'll orchestrate a bidding war and drive the price up pretty high. A less expensive, but still ilmpressive coup, would be to try to pry Vazquez away from them.

duke of dorwood
11-11-2002, 09:25 AM
He's a great pitcher to have-is hard to hit in cold weather.

OEO Magglio
11-11-2002, 02:32 PM
If the sox get Colon, this is what Montreal will get?
Borchard, Crede, Rauch, Olivo, Valentine, Almonte, Malone, Honel, Harris, Jiminez.

Sounds right to me.

cheeses_h_rice
11-11-2002, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
If the sox get Colon, this is what Montreal will get?
Borchard, Crede, Rauch, Olivo, Valentine, Almonte, Malone, Honel, Harris, Jiminez.

Sounds right to me.

:KW

Hey, you've got to give something to get something, mang!

guillen4life13
11-11-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
If the sox get Colon, this is what Montreal will get?
Borchard, Crede, Rauch, Olivo, Valentine, Almonte, Malone, Honel, Harris, Jiminez.

Sounds right to me.

no, you're just a little bit off.

add cash considerations and also add three draft picks.

Daver
11-11-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
no, you're just a little bit off.

add cash considerations and also add three draft picks.

You cannot trade draft picks in MLB,nor can you trade a draft pick in his first year in your system,it is a violation of the CBA.

guillen4life13
11-11-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by daver
You cannot trade draft picks in MLB,nor can you trade a draft pick in his first year in your system,it is a violation of the CBA.
didn't know that

my fault

mrwag
11-12-2002, 08:22 AM
I don't want to see us trade the farm for a 1 year pitcher. Totally not worth it. I'd rather see a FA pickup of one of the Braves' studs. That way we still keep our core together. Otherwise, forget it.

hold2dibber
11-12-2002, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by mrwag
I don't want to see us trade the farm for a 1 year pitcher. Totally not worth it. I'd rather see a FA pickup of one of the Braves' studs. That way we still keep our core together. Otherwise, forget it.

Be realistic - there is no way in all hell that the Sox are going to get Maddux or Glavine. Glavine is going to get a HUGE offer from the Phillies and will simply be off the charts for the Sox. Maddux is represtened by Scott Boras - Reinsdorf won't deal with Boras (plus, Maddux will be way too costly for the Sox).

But I agree that trading for Colon would't make sense if it was only for one year. Does anyone know what the rule is (or if there's a rule) regarding making a trade contingent upon a short negotiation period between the acquiring team and the target of the trade? In other words, could the Sox get a deal in place with the Expos contingent upon the Sox and Colon working out a deal for a contract extension?

voodoochile
11-12-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by daver
You cannot trade draft picks in MLB,nor can you trade a draft pick in his first year in your system,it is a violation of the CBA.

They were talking about changing that until both sides chickened out and left all those rules the same, correct?

RichH55
11-12-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They were talking about changing that until both sides chickened out and left all those rules the same, correct?


I still think the no trading of draft picks was staying either way....the chickening out had more to do with FA compensation and getting the same spot in the draft the next year if you didn't sign the guy you picked IIRC

voodoochile
11-12-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Be realistic - there is no way in all hell that the Sox are going to get Maddux or Glavine. Glavine is going to get a HUGE offer from the Phillies and will simply be off the charts for the Sox. Maddux is represtened by Scott Boras - Reinsdorf won't deal with Boras (plus, Maddux will be way too costly for the Sox).

But I agree that trading for Colon would't make sense if it was only for one year. Does anyone know what the rule is (or if there's a rule) regarding making a trade contingent upon a short negotiation period between the acquiring team and the target of the trade? In other words, could the Sox get a deal in place with the Expos contingent upon the Sox and Colon working out a deal for a contract extension?

Yeah, but the trade would never become finalized until the new contract was in place and realistically, are the Sox going to give a pitcher with a weight problem a long contract? I'm not saying Colon isn't worth it, merely pointing out JR's constant harping on weight with guys like Fernandez and Alvarez and recent bad experiences with Navarro and Wells.

Hopefully KW realizes that the other owners are going to force the Expos to make a trade and that he can get Colon for a little less than his face value. Of course knowing KW that means he will sell the farm and throw in a free cow to boot...

RichH55
11-12-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, but the trade would never become finalized until the new contract was in place and realistically, are the Sox going to give a pitcher with a weight problem a long contract? I'm not saying Colon isn't worth it, merely pointing out JR's constant harping on weight with guys like Fernandez and Alvarez and recent bad experiences with Navarro and Wells.

Hopefully KW realizes that the other owners are going to force the Expos to make a trade and that he can get Colon for a little less than his face value. Of course knowing KW that means he will sell the farm and throw in a free cow to boot...


voodoo...what would you deal for Colon?

voodoochile
11-12-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
voodoo...what would you deal for Colon?

I'm not a minor league expert, and have a terrible time putting together viable trades. Still, if the Sox are going to make a run, it will take at least one of Garland/Wright/Rauch, a top minor-league pitching prospect and an everyday fielder probably one of Harris/Jimenez. Hopefully that last part could be filled by Rowand or Hummel, but I don't know if the Expos would accept that or not.

RichH55
11-12-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I'm not a minor league expert, and have a terrible time putting together viable trades. Still, if the Sox are going to make a run, it will take at least one of Garland/Wright/Rauch, a top minor-league pitching prospect and an everyday fielder probably one of Harris/Jimenez. Hopefully that last part could be filled by Rowand or Hummel, but I don't know if the Expos would accept that or not.

So we try and get by with Wright, Malone, and Harris? It still might cost more than that, but get Colon signed to a 3 year deal(i doubt 4) and we have answered alot of questions we had...Wright has great stuff, but he hasn't harnessed it yet, Malone took a step backwards last year(so his being the top pitching prospect is a stretch) and Harris is utterly replaceable......That still sounds pretty doable to me....especially dealing a pitching prospect or two(not three) to get a proven top of the rotation guy(not ritchie)...a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

voodoochile
11-12-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
So we try and get by with Wright, Malone, and Harris? It still might cost more than that, but get Colon signed to a 3 year deal(i doubt 4) and we have answered alot of questions we had...Wright has great stuff, but he hasn't harnessed it yet, Malone took a step backwards last year(so his being the top pitching prospect is a stretch) and Harris is utterly replaceable......That still sounds pretty doable to me....especially dealing a pitching prospect or two(not three) to get a proven top of the rotation guy(not ritchie)...a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

If push comes to shove, they can throw in Leifer, and of course everyone on the board will immediately start bemoaning his loss over any other...

:D:

RichH55
11-12-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If push comes to shove, they can throw in Leifer, and of course everyone on the board will immediately start bemoaning his loss over any other...

:D:


LOSING JEFF LIEFER WILL BE A DAY SOX FANS WILL NEVER LIVE DOWN! ITS ALMOST AS BAD AS THE TIME WE LOST SEAN LOWE AND HEBERT PERRY IN THE SAME OFFSEASON

hold2dibber
11-12-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
So we try and get by with Wright, Malone, and Harris? It still might cost more than that, but get Colon signed to a 3 year deal(i doubt 4) and we have answered alot of questions we had...Wright has great stuff, but he hasn't harnessed it yet, Malone took a step backwards last year(so his being the top pitching prospect is a stretch) and Harris is utterly replaceable......That still sounds pretty doable to me....especially dealing a pitching prospect or two(not three) to get a proven top of the rotation guy(not ritchie)...a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

The Expos gave up a LOT to get Colon, so I don't see this deal being close to enough. I think it would take something like any two of Wright, Garland, Rauch and C.Lee, plus one of Biddle, Malone, Valentine, Almonte or Munoz. Or, because the Expos gave up the no. 1 prospect in their system (Brandon Phillip) (among others) to get Colon, they might insist on our no. 1 prospect - Borchard. If the Sox trade for Colon, whatever they give up will hurt.

RichH55
11-12-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The Expos gave up a LOT to get Colon, so I don't see this deal being close to enough. I think it would take something like any two of Wright, Garland, Rauch and C.Lee, plus one of Biddle, Malone, Valentine, Almonte or Munoz. Or, because the Expos gave up the no. 1 prospect in their system (Brandon Phillip) (among others) to get Colon, they might insist on our no. 1 prospect - Borchard. If the Sox trade for Colon, whatever they give up will hurt.

Borchard is a dealbreaker to me, and I'm hoping White Sox management as well

RichH55
11-12-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The Expos gave up a LOT to get Colon, so I don't see this deal being close to enough. I think it would take something like any two of Wright, Garland, Rauch and C.Lee, plus one of Biddle, Malone, Valentine, Almonte or Munoz. Or, because the Expos gave up the no. 1 prospect in their system (Brandon Phillip) (among others) to get Colon, they might insist on our no. 1 prospect - Borchard. If the Sox trade for Colon, whatever they give up will hurt.


I agree with alot of what you say.....I would like to hold onto Carlos, but if Colon comes resigned then its a deal you have to really look hard at....Borchard would start up here(more youth, eh) and then the one glaring hole(assuming Olivo can cut it) is CF where I simply do not think Rowand is the answer......If we have to deal Wright, Lee+ to get Colon then that might make us FA players for a CF.....I wonder what Finley's asking price is?

OfficerKarkovice
11-12-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I wonder what Finley's asking price is?

Aaron Rowand and a minor leaguer for Finely and a case of Geritol?

RichH55
11-12-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Aaron Rowand and a minor leaguer for Finely and a case of Geritol?


I believe he is a FA....and well I'm sure Rowand is handy around the house, I bet Finely would like to be paid in dollars

ScottyTheSoxFan
11-12-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I believe he is a FA....and well I'm sure Rowand is handy around the house, I bet Finely would like to be paid in dollars

he will stay in AZ or he will be in Buck Showalter's lineup. forget about it.

TornLabrum
11-12-2002, 09:16 PM
I admit I haven't kept up on Colon since he left the Indians, or maybe since the Sox ceased being contenders, but I heard today on The Score that he is supposed to have TWO shoulder surgeries this off-season.

If this is true, he'll be worthless in 2003. This means that Prof. Chaos will sell the farm for him. I have faith in my Sox to never disappoint my worst expectations.

Lip Man 1
11-12-2002, 10:58 PM
Hal:

Basically he went 20-8 for the year with an ERA, of around three, splitting time with Cleveland and Montreal.

I haven't heard a THING about any shoulder surgeries. If he's had them, or is about to, what the heck is he doing pitching in Japan with the MLB All Stars?

Lip

nut_stock
11-13-2002, 12:20 AM
According to the Trib, the latest rumor is Cory Lidle

OfficerKarkovice
11-13-2002, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by nut_stock
According to the Trib, the latest rumor is Cory Lidle

I think Lidle would be a nice pick up. I'm not sure he takes care of any needs at a #2 guy but I think he could develop into a solid #3. I absolutely despise the thought of KW dealing with the master in Billy Beane, but as the Trib suggested if it were just Lidle for Lee I might be tempted to pull the trigger on that one.

Hullett_Fan
11-13-2002, 09:18 AM
I'd do Lee for Lidle...but we need to pick up Colon as well because Lidle is a #4 starter IMO and we need a #2.

Any other pitchers on the trading block? Marlins (Penny?), Expos (Vazquez?), etc. Haven't heard anything.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 12:38 PM
Wasn't the rumor last year Rowand for Lidle? Or another A's pitcher I can't remember? I still liked the deal though

jeremyb1
11-13-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Wasn't the rumor last year Rowand for Lidle? Or another A's pitcher I can't remember? I still liked the deal though

yeah. we supposedly had a three way deal in place to send rowand to the rockies, jack cust to the a's, and we'd get lidle but we had doubts about lidle and pulled out at the last minute.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
yeah. we supposedly had a three way deal in place to send rowand to the rockies, jack cust to the a's, and we'd get lidle but we had doubts about lidle and pulled out at the last minute.

Exactly....I don't think Lidle pitched lights out this year either...A's not looking to take on more contracts(Lee makes some cash), so the Lee for Lidle rumor really doesnt make a ton of sense

Daver
11-13-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Exactly....I don't think Lidle pitched lights out this year either...A's not looking to take on more contracts(Lee makes some cash), so the Lee for Lidle rumor really doesnt make a ton of sense

Carlos makes little when compared to salaries nowadays;
2002: $2.7M
2003: $4.2M

And he still has an arbitration year left after that.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by daver
Carlos makes little when compared to salaries nowadays;
2002: $2.7M
2003: $4.2M

And he still has an arbitration year left after that.


Lidle doesnt make much more than that(if any) and one of the reasons to dump Lidle is a salary one.....500 K vs 4.2 million is a big consideration for a club like Oakland, so I'm guessing they would be wanting a younger guy...that was my point

Daver
11-13-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Lidle doesnt make much more than that(if any) and one of the reasons to dump Lidle is a salary one.....500 K vs 4.2 million is a big consideration for a club like Oakland, so I'm guessing they would be wanting a younger guy...that was my point

The A's do not have a true DH and Beane would jump on the fact that he can keep Lee for the last year of arbitration,then trade him for another DH,Billy knows how to use the system better than most.

RichH55
11-13-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by daver
The A's do not have a true DH and Beane would jump on the fact that he can keep Lee for the last year of arbitration,then trade him for another DH,Billy knows how to use the system better than most.

Durham will be their DH and frankly I doubt the validity of the Lidle for Lee rumors...jsut doesnt make sense to me

Daver
11-13-2002, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Durham will be their DH and frankly I doubt the validity of the Lidle for Lee rumors...jsut doesnt make sense to me

Durham is not a DH,and Beane knows it,and he has a ton of pitching in his system,he can afford to let loose with Lidle,though I doubt it would be Lidle for Lee straight up,not with Billy Beane doing the trading.

TornLabrum
11-13-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hal:

Basically he went 20-8 for the year with an ERA, of around three, splitting time with Cleveland and Montreal.

I haven't heard a THING about any shoulder surgeries. If he's had them, or is about to, what the heck is he doing pitching in Japan with the MLB All Stars?

Lip

I heard the arm surgery thing repeated today again by Murphy and Heubner on The Score. They're the only ones I've heard it from.

jeremyb1
11-13-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
The A's do not have a true DH and Beane would jump on the fact that he can keep Lee for the last year of arbitration,then trade him for another DH,Billy knows how to use the system better than most.

well if they were going to keep carlos for a full season that would be in direct conflict with the report that beane was seeking to move lidle for cost cutting purposes to free up more money for durham and tejada because carlos' salary would cancel out lidle's.

maurice
11-14-2002, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by daver
Durham is not a DH

Well, he's certainly not a prototypical DH -- a big, old guy who can't run (e.g., Harold Baines, Dave Parker, Chili Davis, etc.).

This presents an interesting question. What kind of player exactly is or should be a DH? I always thought it was a veteran with a decent OPS who can't play defense. Durham fits this definition. He even has pretty good power numbers, especially for a guy his size.

Dadawg_77
11-14-2002, 12:42 PM
If the A's got Lee they might be able to unload Justice or Dye (about seven mill each). Billy is a chess master at this game, always planning three or four moves ahead and bringing in comparable player that three million dollars cheaper is a great move with a limited budget.