PDA

View Full Version : Central notes


Daver
11-02-2002, 10:32 AM
From TSN:

AROUND THE A.L. CENTRAL

CHICAGO WHITE SOX

Operating on a tighter budget, the team is prepared to head into next season with a much younger roster. But it would like a No. 2 starter and is exploring the possibility of RHP Greg Maddux. More realistic targets than Maddux are Shawn Estes and RHP Terry Adams. After that, the team might decide to stand pat. It could try to add a veteran catcher because as of now, rookie Miguel Olivo appears to be the starter. He lacks experience and might be better off learning the ropes behind a player such as Bill Haselman or John Flaherty. … If RHP James Baldwin still is on the market in January, the team might try to sign him to a non-roster deal and add depth to the rotation.

LET HIM GO

DH Frank Thomas is the best player in team history, but he would be better off playing somewhere else. Under the terms of his unique contract, Thomas is a “conditional” free agent and can shop his services until December 7. If he fails to find a better deal, Thomas can return. Despite batting .252 last year, Thomas still is an offensive threat and finished with decent (29 homers, 92 RBIs) power numbers. But the team is tired of the controversy that seems to follow him. Carlos Lee could pick up the slack at DH. If Joe Borchard isn't ready to replace Lee in left field, Jeff Liefer will get a look at DH. --Scot Gregor

RKMeibalane
11-02-2002, 11:06 AM
When I read articles like this, I often wonder if the people who wrote them actually took the time to watch some of the Sox games this past season.

Yes, Thomas was inconsistent in 2002. And yes, the Sox need more experience in their starting rotation. Tell me something I don't already know. The main problem I have with those notes is that the authors suggests using Jeff Liefer as DH in the event that Thomas leaves.

You have got to be kidding me. Does anyone pay attention to the numbers that players compile? Jeff Liefer did nothing this past season. Nothing. His most noteworthy accomplishment was demanding to be traded, because he was unhappy with his playing time.

guillen4life13
11-02-2002, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
When I read articles like this, I often wonder if the people who wrote them actually took the time to watch some of the Sox games this past season.

Yes, Thomas was inconsistent in 2002. And yes, the Sox need more experience in their starting rotation. Tell me something I don't already know. The main problem I have with those notes is that the authors suggests using Jeff Liefer as DH in the event that Thomas leaves.

You have got to be kidding me. Does anyone pay attention to the numbers that players compile? Jeff Liefer did nothing this past season. Nothing. His most noteworthy accomplishment was demanding to be traded, because he was unhappy with his playing time.

in all fairness (i agree with you dude, but just to see the other side of the situation): liefer didn't have much of a chance to do anything. no one knows what may hve happened had he played much more. just a thought...

RichH55
11-02-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
in all fairness (i agree with you dude, but just to see the other side of the situation): liefer didn't have much of a chance to do anything. no one knows what may hve happened had he played much more. just a thought...


I agree here.....I haven't written off Liefer yet....hes not making any money and he could put up numbers until it is time to make that payday...so let some other team overpay then

RichH55
11-02-2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by daver
From TSN:

AROUND THE A.L. CENTRAL

CHICAGO WHITE SOX

Operating on a tighter budget, the team is prepared to head into next season with a much younger roster. But it would like a No. 2 starter and is exploring the possibility of RHP Greg Maddux. More realistic targets than Maddux are Shawn Estes and RHP Terry Adams. After that, the team might decide to stand pat. It could try to add a veteran catcher because as of now, rookie Miguel Olivo appears to be the starter. He lacks experience and might be better off learning the ropes behind a player such as Bill Haselman or John Flaherty. … If RHP James Baldwin still is on the market in January, the team might try to sign him to a non-roster deal and add depth to the rotation.

LET HIM GO

DH Frank Thomas is the best player in team history, but he would be better off playing somewhere else. Under the terms of his unique contract, Thomas is a “conditional” free agent and can shop his services until December 7. If he fails to find a better deal, Thomas can return. Despite batting .252 last year, Thomas still is an offensive threat and finished with decent (29 homers, 92 RBIs) power numbers. But the team is tired of the controversy that seems to follow him. Carlos Lee could pick up the slack at DH. If Joe Borchard isn't ready to replace Lee in left field, Jeff Liefer will get a look at DH. --Scot Gregor


You read this and it just shows that writers don't watch everything and thats why they love veterans...because they already know the name. Terry Adams? Ugh Flaherty as a starter? Double Ugh.....A team does need veterans..no question, but you generally want to get good veterans and/or respectable ones. I havent heard anything about Adams or Flaherty that makes me think they would be even good locker room guys...and well I'm in favor of bringing in a veteran catcher such as Girardi or Alomar it is strictly in a backup/mentor role...not crap like Flaherty to start....The Baldwin suggestion makes sense though, but thats probably the writer looking over Baldwin and saying hey he used to play for the White Sox and they need pitching...poof hes going there

NewyorkSoxFan
11-02-2002, 04:24 PM
I agree with getting some vets to help this young team, but if I have to watch balls sailing over the newly renovated left field fence from a Baldwin hanging curve, I swear I'll slit my wrist. Stop getting all these almost done, need to retire, cant'stay healthy vets and get someone who actually could contribute to winning on the field. Having said all that I wouldn't mind seeing Gerardi here to help mentor Olivo.

NYSF :angry: :angry:

Daver
11-02-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree with getting some vets to help this young team, but if I have to watch balls sailing over the newly renovated left field fence from a Baldwin hanging curve, I swear I'll slit my wrist. Stop getting all these almost done, need to retire, cant'stay healthy vets and get someone who actually could contribute to winning on the field. Having said all that I wouldn't mind seeing Gerardi here to help mentor Olivo.

NYSF :angry: :angry:

I am still wondering why there are so many people wanting to acquire Joe Girardi,we already have a mediocre defensive catcher that can't hit in Mark Johnson,why add one that will command more than twice the salary?

NewyorkSoxFan
11-02-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by daver
I am still wondering why there are so many people wanting to acquire Joe Girardi,we already have a mediocre defensive catcher that can't hit in Mark Johnson,why add one that will command more than twice the salary?

Last time I checked MJ has never played in a world series let alone caught a perfect game, so I would say his knowledge of pitching is a tad higher than MJ's. Now if you don't want to pay the salary that's ok but don't equate that with comparisons of their abilities.

NYSF

Daver
11-02-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Last time I checked MJ has never played in a world series let alone caught a perfect game, so I would say his knowledge of pitching is a tad higher than MJ's. Now if you don't want to pay the salary that's ok but don't equate that with comparisons of their abilities.

NYSF

I am just echoing the sentiments of our resident Cub fan and minor league expert Vic.

NewyorkSoxFan
11-02-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by daver
I am just echoing the sentiments of our resident Cub fan and minor league expert Vic.

I don't know who Vic is but suffice it to say he's a Cub fan so consider the source.

NYSF

Soxheads
11-02-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I don't know who Vic is but suffice it to say he's a Cub fan so consider the source.

NYSF

What the heck is that supposed to mean??
:?:

Daver
11-02-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I don't know who Vic is but suffice it to say he's a Cub fan so consider the source.

NYSF

Vic is not your typical Cub fan,here is his response to acquiring Giardi.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15464&perpage=15&display=show&pagenumber=2

Vsahajpal
11-02-2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by daver
I am just echoing the sentiments of our resident Cub fan and minor league expert Vic.


Daver, Girardi is brutal. And the fact of the matter is, Hundley handled the young guys (Cruz, Zambrano) better than Geritol Joe.

Daver
11-02-2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Daver, Girardi is brutal. And the fact of the matter is, Hundley handled the young guys (Cruz, Zambrano) better than Geritol Joe.

I know Vic,I was just backing you up.Intelligent Cub fans are hard to come by,so I will back you up whenever the situatiion warrants it.

MarkEdward
11-02-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Last time I checked MJ has never played in a world series let alone caught a perfect game, so I would say his knowledge of pitching is a tad higher than MJ's. Now if you don't want to pay the salary that's ok but don't equate that with comparisons of their abilities.

NYSF

Of course the pitcher had nothing to do with the perfect game. And since playing in a World Series is important, maybe we should sign Luis Sojo, Rod Barajas, or Clay Bellinger. They all played in the Series, so they should be great. Right?

OneDog
11-02-2002, 07:58 PM
Girardi calls a decent game but let's see...He can't hit or run, and can barely throw. So essentially, we'd be getting an older more run down right handed hitting version of MJ. Who needs that?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-03-2002, 03:41 PM
Put me down in the "I don't need a hole in the head to prove Jeff Liefer can't play regularly nor deserves regular playing time" camp.

There is NOTHING about this guy to suggest he ought to get regular PT--or even occasional PT. He is the poster child for Roster Filler.

Let Frank go so Liefer can play more? Unbelievable.

pearso66
11-03-2002, 04:32 PM
i would haev to agree, dont let thomas go to let leifer play, sure leifer had some good moments, but so did one of my favorite to hate, jeff abbott, i dont see anyone crying to get him back. leifer hasnt proved he's any better than abbott, to me anyway

bc2k
11-03-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by daver
From TSN:

LET HIM GO

DH Frank Thomas is the best player in team history, but he would be better off playing somewhere else. Under the terms of his unique contract, Thomas is a “conditional” free agent and can shop his services until December 7. If he fails to find a better deal, Thomas can return. Despite batting .252 last year, Thomas still is an offensive threat and finished with decent (29 homers, 92 RBIs) power numbers. But the team is tired of the controversy that seems to follow him. Carlos Lee could pick up the slack at DH. If Joe Borchard isn't ready to replace Lee in left field, Jeff Liefer will get a look at DH. --Scot Gregor

In 2001, without regular playing time, Jeff Liefer hit 18 home runs in 254 at bats.

In 2002, with regular playing time, Frank Thomas hit 29 home runs in 523 at bats.

Double Liefer's at bats to 508 at he potentially hits 36 home runs.

I'd take my chances with a hungry, much less expensive Jeff Liefer over Frank Thomas. And if Jeff doesn't work out Joe Borchard is one hell of an emergency replacement.

Soxheads
11-03-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
In 2001, without regular playing time, Jeff Liefer hit 18 home runs in 254 at bats.

In 2002, with regular playing time, Frank Thomas hit 29 home runs in 523 at bats.

Double Liefer's at bats to 508 at he potentially hits 36 home runs.

I'd take my chances with a hungry, much less expensive Jeff Liefer over Frank Thomas.

That is bull ****. Don't try and feed me that.

guillen4life13
11-03-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
In 2001, without regular playing time, Jeff Liefer hit 18 home runs in 254 at bats.

In 2002, with regular playing time, Frank Thomas hit 29 home runs in 523 at bats.

Double Liefer's at bats to 508 at he potentially hits 36 home runs.

I'd take my chances with a hungry, much less expensive Jeff Liefer over Frank Thomas. And if Jeff doesn't work out Joe Borchard is one hell of an emergency replacement.

no offense to you, but if homeruns were all that mattered we'd be even worse off than our north side enemies... with the one person who shares the same viewpoint as what you just put down.

out of curiousity (and i'm too lazy to check...) how many rbi did jeff liefer have in 2001? I think that frank had a better ratio of rbi/ab.

but you can call me on that one if you want... because i haven't any proof right now.

Daver
11-03-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
In 2001, without regular playing time, Jeff Liefer hit 18 home runs in 254 at bats.

In 2002, with regular playing time, Frank Thomas hit 29 home runs in 523 at bats.

Double Liefer's at bats to 508 at he potentially hits 36 home runs.

I'd take my chances with a hungry, much less expensive Jeff Liefer over Frank Thomas. And if Jeff doesn't work out Joe Borchard is one hell of an emergency replacement.

Home runs are not what the DH is all about,it is run production and BA,as well as on base percentage,and providing protection for the hitters in front or behind you,Jeff Leifer ain't going to intimidate too many pitchers.

You and your continued denial of what Frank Thomas brings to the line up will never cease to amaze me,it makes we wonder if you have any knowledge of the game whatsoever....

guillen4life13
11-03-2002, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by daver
Home runs are not what the DH is all about,it is run production and BA,as well as on base percentage,and providing protection for the hitters in front or behind you,Jeff Leifer ain't going to intimidate too many pitchers.

You and your continued denial of what Frank Thomas brings to the line up will never cease to amaze me,it makes we wonder if you have any knowledge of the game whatsoever....
well said

bc2k
11-03-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13


no offense to you, but if homeruns were all that mattered we'd be even worse off than our north side enemies... with the one person who shares the same viewpoint as what you just put down.

out of curiousity (and i'm too lazy to check...) how many rbi did jeff liefer have in 2001? I think that frank had a better ratio of rbi/ab.

but you can call me on that one if you want... because i haven't any proof right now.

Liefer had 39 rbi, 20 walks, and 69 strikeouts in 2001. Assuming he would double those stats with twice the at bats, he would have 78 rbi, 40 walks, and 138 strikeouts.



Originally posted by daver


Home runs are not what the DH is all about,it is run production and BA,as well as on base percentage,and providing protection for the hitters in front or behind you,Jeff Leifer ain't going to intimidate too many pitchers.

You and your continued denial of what Frank Thomas brings to the line up will never cease to amaze me,it makes we wonder if you have any knowledge of the game whatsoever....


On this thread I didn't deny the statistics Frank brings, I only wrote of what Liefer brings to the team. All I did was present stats which helped formulate my opinion.

Liefer brings a left-handed bat to the lineup. Liefer's versatility of playing four fielding positions allows his teammates of those four positions "days off" by trading his DH position with them. I certainly would rather have Lief at the plate over Thomas in clutch situations. And perhaps Liefer would produce when the division is still in grasp. So while Frank is more likely to put up better stats, I would still choose Liefer.
The small gap in production between the two DH’s, combined with the huge gap in salary, make Liefer the intelligent choice. Throw in the fact that we don’t know Liefer’s ceiling, he could be better than we think. Liefer is hungry to play, Frank goes in the locker room during the middle of games to satisfy his hunger - at the buffet table.

Daver
11-03-2002, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by bc2k






On this thread I didn't deny the statistics Frank brings, I only wrote of what Liefer brings to the team. All I did was present stats which helped formulate my opinion.

Liefer brings a left-handed bat to the lineup. Liefer's versatility of playing four fielding positions allows his teammates of those four positions "days off" by trading his DH position with them. I certainly would rather have Lief at the plate over Thomas in clutch situations. And perhaps Liefer would produce when the division is still in grasp. So while Frank is more likely to put up better stats, I would still choose Liefer.
The small gap in production between the two DH’s, combined with the huge gap in salary, make Liefer the intelligent choice. Throw in the fact that we don’t know Liefer’s ceiling, he could be better than we think. Liefer is hungry to play, Frank goes in the locker room during the middle of games to satisfy his hunger - at the buffet table.


Leifer the intelligent choice?

LMAO!!!!!

Go back and double check your stats,and look at the record numbers Frank has put up at the plate,compared to a Jeff Leifer that is a pinch hitter at best on a good roster.

Again,I have to question your knowledge of the game,or in this case your total lack thereof......

Soxheads
11-03-2002, 10:02 PM
Who will be in the Hall of Fame? Frank Thomas or Jeff Liefer?

bc2k
11-03-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by daver



Leifer the intelligent choice?

LMAO!!!!!

Go back and double check your stats,and look at the record numbers Frank has put up at the plate,compared to a Jeff Leifer that is a pinch hitter at best on a good roster.

Again,I have to question your knowledge of the game,or in this case your total lack thereof......

Why do you bring up the numbers Thomas has put up in the past. His past performances are no indication of future success. Talk about knowlege of the game...

Originally posted by Soxheads
Who will be in the Hall of Fame? Frank Thomas or Jeff Liefer?

Who is the best option for the Chicago White Sox?

Soxheads
11-03-2002, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Why do you bring up the numbers Thomas has put up in the past. His past performances are no indication of future success. Talk about knowlege of the game...




Who is the best option for the Chicago White Sox?

You are using Leifer's past stats to justify him playing.

And Thomas is a better option.

Daver
11-03-2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Why do you bring up the numbers Thomas has put up in the past. His past performances are no indication of future success. Talk about knowlege of the game...



I was not referring to Thomas' numbers,I was referring to Leifer's.

I ain't gonna do your homework for you but Leifer hasn't put up better then average stats at any level he has played at (including high school) and you are pushing for him over a guy that holds more than one MLB record at the plate.

I'm done discussing this with you,it is obvious that you have let your dislike for Thomas cloud any rational thought that you might have.

And I can add that I am not a fan of Frank Thomas.

WinningUgly!
11-03-2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Liefer had 39 rbi, 20 walks, and 69 strikeouts in 2001. Assuming he would double those stats with twice the at bats, he would have 78 rbi, 40 walks, and 138 strikeouts.






On this thread I didn't deny the statistics Frank brings, I only wrote of what Liefer brings to the team. All I did was present stats which helped formulate my opinion.

Liefer brings a left-handed bat to the lineup. Liefer's versatility of playing four fielding positions allows his teammates of those four positions "days off" by trading his DH position with them. I certainly would rather have Lief at the plate over Thomas in clutch situations. And perhaps Liefer would produce when the division is still in grasp. So while Frank is more likely to put up better stats, I would still choose Liefer.
The small gap in production between the two DH’s, combined with the huge gap in salary, make Liefer the intelligent choice. Throw in the fact that we don’t know Liefer’s ceiling, he could be better than we think. Liefer is hungry to play, Frank goes in the locker room during the middle of games to satisfy his hunger - at the buffet table.

Liefer is not now & never will be an everyday player! He could become one of the better platoon players in the league, but that's as far as it goes. How could you expect a guy who is so handicapped by left handed pitching to be in the lineup everyday, especially at DH? Over the last 3 seasons he has a whopping FIVE hits vs. lefties. What is the point in having a DH that would need to be constantly pinch hit for in the later innings? Yeah, that's just what I want to see next year...Jerry Manuel sitting on his hands in the dugout while Lief gets embarassed by any/all lefties out of bullpens throughout the AL.

doublem23
11-03-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
in all fairness (i agree with you dude, but just to see the other side of the situation): liefer didn't have much of a chance to do anything. no one knows what may hve happened had he played much more. just a thought...

Oh dear. Not Jeff Liefer...

doublem23
11-03-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Soxheads
Who will be in the Hall of Fame? Frank Thomas or Jeff Liefer?

Well, if you double Liefer's stats, maybe he'd make it.

LMAO!

doublem23
11-03-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Liefer is not now & never will be an everyday player! He could become one of the better platoon players in the league, but that's as far as it goes. How could you expect a guy who is so handicapped by left handed pitching to be in the lineup everyday, especially at DH? Over the last 3 seasons he has a whopping FIVE hits vs. lefties. What is the point in having a DH that would need to be constantly pinch hit for in the later innings? Yeah, that's just what I want to see next year...Jerry Manuel sitting on his hands in the dugout while Lief gets embarassed by any/all lefties out of bullpens throughout the AL.

That's not fair, WU. Leifer has been unfairly benched behind that guy they call "the greatest hitter in franchise history." You have to double his stats to get a correct view on his skills...

He'd have had TEN hits against lefties in the last 3 years if he was only given a chance.

RichH55
11-04-2002, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
That's not fair, WU. Leifer has been unfairly benched behind that guy they call "the greatest hitter in franchise history." You have to double his stats to get a correct view on his skills...

He'd have had TEN hits against lefties in the last 3 years if he was only given a chance.


LOL.....but seriously...dont we have the depth to give Liefer some platoon time? He should never face lefties, but he doesn't hit righties that bad, and I'm not thinking Rowand is a future Hall of Famer either

doublem23
11-04-2002, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
LOL.....but seriously...dont we have the depth to give Liefer some platoon time? He should never face lefties, but he doesn't hit righties that bad, and I'm not thinking Rowand is a future Hall of Famer either

Personally, if I never saw Jeff Liefer in a Sox uniform again, I'd dance a jig.

WinningUgly!
11-04-2002, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
LOL.....but seriously...dont we have the depth to give Liefer some platoon time? He should never face lefties, but he doesn't hit righties that bad, and I'm not thinking Rowand is a future Hall of Famer either

At least Rowand knows & accepts his role with the team. He never pisses & moans about playing time like Liefer does. I'm not really anti-Lief, but if he's not willing to know his role & shut his mouth, I'll be dancing that jig along with dub. :D:

ChiSoxBobette
11-04-2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
You read this and it just shows that writers don't watch everything and thats why they love veterans...because they already know the name. Terry Adams? Ugh Flaherty as a starter? Double Ugh.....A team does need veterans..no question, but you generally want to get good veterans and/or respectable ones. I havent heard anything about Adams or Flaherty that makes me think they would be even good locker room guys...and well I'm in favor of bringing in a veteran catcher such as Girardi or Alomar it is strictly in a backup/mentor role...not crap like Flaherty to start....The Baldwin suggestion makes sense though, but thats probably the writer looking over Baldwin and saying hey he used to play for the White Sox and they need pitching...poof hes going there
I agree with what you said and I think it would be great to get Alomar back to back up what looks to be a pretty good looking rookie catcher in Olivio , Alomar could catch 1 or 2 games and be there on the bench to help the rookie, besides Alomar was always a pretty good team guy, as far as pitching go's who knows look what happened to the Sox with Ritchie when the Sox grabbed the guy last spring a lot of baseball people thought the Sox were getting a steal, I think in the spring they give some of those rookies a shot and see if any of them step up.
:)

maurice
11-04-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
At least Rowand knows & accepts his role with the team. He never pisses & moans about playing time like Liefer does.

Too true. Plus, Lief's status as union rep meas he's on borrowed time with JR.

Personalities aside, Rowand-bashers should be twice as harsh on Lief.

Aaron Rowand
Age: 25
2002 Stats: 302 ABs / .258 AVE / .298 OBP /.394 SLG (some improvement likely with regular playing time in 2003)
Defense: Adequate with limited range in CF; better in LF and RF

Jeff Liefer
Age: 28 (not a "young player," by any means)
2002 Offensive Stats: 204 / .230 / .295 / .373 SLG (pretty close to his career numbers)
Defense: Adequate but with no range at 1B, LF, and RF; horrendous at 3B

And, for the sake of completeness...

Frank Thomas
Age: 34
2002 Offensive Stats: 523 / .252 / .361 / .472 (WAY below his career numbers)
Defense: Below average at 1B

* * *

Bottom line: if we lose Frank this offsason, LTP better be ready to play a full season.

RichH55
11-06-2002, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Personally, if I never saw Jeff Liefer in a Sox uniform again, I'd dance a jig.


I'm not suggesting he should be a starter or that he is the answer, but as a platoon utility guy who can play a few positions...you could do a lot worse than Liefer

doublem23
11-06-2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I'm not suggesting he should be a starter or that he is the answer, but as a platoon utility guy who can play a few positions...you could do a lot worse than Liefer

Technically, anyone can play any position. The point is playing them well; and even with that said, it's not rocket science playing first base.

Yeah, you could do a lot worse than Jeff, but you could do a helluva lot better, too.

34 Inch Stick
11-06-2002, 10:37 AM
Jeff Liefer= Russell Branyon= Buchanon (the one traded from the Twins to the Padres)= Sorriano (from the Indians in "Major League" not the Yankee star)

Every team has one of these big, slow swinging, meat balls. They all look like they will be a big home run hitter and they never pan out. Please, let's just recognize the old man's limitations. We can appreciate his mediocrity until he is eligible for free agency. Then he will be gone and we will speak of Jeff Liefer no more.

maurice
11-06-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Jeff Liefer = Russell Branyon


This could be fun.


Jeff Liefer = Frank Thomas - Hall of Fame credentials

Jeff Liefer = Dan Pasqua - 13 years - glasses

Maggs = Shamee + glove - steroids

Mark Buehrle = Tom Glavine - 13 years - free agency

Joe Crede = Robin Ventura - 11 years - lefthanded bat

Keith Foulke = Damaso Marte + track record - lefthanded pitches

Willie Harris = Ray Durham + glove - bat

Tony G = Craig Grebeck + 30 lbs.

KW = Billy Bean - brain

ozzman
11-06-2002, 12:49 PM
wouldnt it be more like this?


Jeff Liefer = Frank Thomas / 2 since you have to double all of Lief's stats to compare them

RichH55
11-06-2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Technically, anyone can play any position. The point is playing them well; and even with that said, it's not rocket science playing first base.

Yeah, you could do a lot worse than Jeff, but you could do a helluva lot better, too.


But as a bench guy he fits well IMO....I don't think for bench players you can get leaps and bounds ahead of Liefer....chances are if a guy is much better than Liefer he is a starter..that was kind of my point...and as to the multiple positions...it isnt theory Liefer has played multiple positions which adds to his value off the bench

SouthSideHitman
11-06-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
I agree with what you said and I think it would be great to get Alomar back to back up what looks to be a pretty good looking rookie catcher in Olivio , Alomar could catch 1 or 2 games and be there on the bench to help the rookie, besides Alomar was always a pretty good team guy, as far as pitching go's who knows look what happened to the Sox with Ritchie when the Sox grabbed the guy last spring a lot of baseball people thought the Sox were getting a steal, I think in the spring they give some of those rookies a shot and see if any of them step up.
:)

I agree that Adams or Flaherty would both be terrible options, but so would Alomar. The main arguments for getting Alomar are that he is veteran and won't have to catch much. First of all, that would mean either using another roster spot for a third catcher or starting a rookie catcher more often than is probably good. I think that people think of Alomar as more of a coach for Olivo than a player. But why waste the money on Alomar when what we really need is starting pitching and another lefthanded bat. If you want to get a veteran catcher, then get one cheap or just sit tight with Johnson and/or Paul given the fact that Olivo will probably soon be a full time starter and the rest of the lineup is better than in 2000.

RichH55
11-06-2002, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
I agree that Adams or Flaherty would both be terrible options, but so would Alomar. The main arguments for getting Alomar are that he is veteran and won't have to catch much. First of all, that would mean either using another roster spot for a third catcher or starting a rookie catcher more often than is probably good. I think that people think of Alomar as more of a coach for Olivo than a player. But why waste the money on Alomar when what we really need is starting pitching and another lefthanded bat. If you want to get a veteran catcher, then get one cheap or just sit tight with Johnson and/or Paul given the fact that Olivo will probably soon be a full time starter and the rest of the lineup is better than in 2000.


Part of the motivation for getting Alomar was always that he would come on the cheap, and Alomar can still play somewhat. The thing about him not playing that often is to allow Olivo to develop and to keep Alomar healthy. And of course part of Alomar's allure is that he is a "coach" for Olivo; he has been there, done that and the Alomar are respected not just for their talent but for their knowledge of the game, I don't see why that would be a bad thing.....If Sandy wants alot of money then he isn't for us, but if he comes reasonable we could do alot worse(See: Current Roster)....For the record I don't want a veteran just for the sake of him being a veteran. In some cases though, and I think Alomar is one of them, veterans can really add to the team....If I see a blurb like White Sox sign Flaherty then thats a bad move, but MJ or Paul isnt making visions of the World Series dance through my head either

maurice
11-07-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
as a bench guy he fits well IMO....

I agree . . . in the sense that a big, mediocre white guy fits well as the 12th man on a NBA bench. Someone needs to keep the spot warm, though he hardly ever plays. OTOH, he easily can be replaced by a number of low-priced free agents.

It looks like you agree that we're in bigger trouble than usual if Lief gets significant playing time in 2003.

it isnt theory Liefer has played multiple positions which adds to his value off the bench

Lief is not a true utility player (e.g., Tony G). He has limited defensive capabilities at 1B, LF, and RF . . . fine for a guy at the end of the bench but nothing special. The experiment playing him at 3B quickly was ended by his .867 FPCT (4 errors in only 15 games, all in 2001).