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View Full Version : New Williams' Comments On Thomas (Tonight)


Lip Man 1
10-28-2002, 11:04 PM
Dan Rohn of WGN-TV Sports reported tonight (9:50 PM Central Time) that he spoke with Sox GM Ken Williams on the Frank Thomas situation today.

Rohn said Williams told him, "the Sox would love to have Frank Thomas back, BUT only if he's willing to fit into the team concept."

Rohn then said "if Thomas isn't willing to do that, the Sox are prepared to turn the page without him..."

Just FYI

Lip

Jerry_Manuel
10-28-2002, 11:28 PM
Williams is prepared to. I wouldn't say everyone in that front office is.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-29-2002, 12:03 AM
Great.

Forget about Frank's injury.
Forget about Frank nearly winning the MVP three years ago.
Forget about the lousy performance of the pitchers.
Forget about dropping 14 games in the win column the past two years.

Forget all that. Our GM is prepared to dump Frank Thomas because he doesn't fit what Kenny Williams thinks is a "team" concept.

What "team" concept would that be, Kenny? The '89 Sox team you were part of that lost 92 games and never made it out of last place? Is that one, Kenny?

This guy is simply incredible. I can't believe how stupid the Sox are at the top of the organization. Un-frickin-believable.

Lip Man 1
10-29-2002, 12:06 AM
Paul Sullivan has a long story on the Thomas situation that has just hit the Tribune's internet web site. The story has some interesting tidbits in it. To wit:

"The team expected to show the most interest is Baltimore , which is in dire need of a star player since the retirement of Cal Ripken, and also has the money."

"Williams said he tried to call Thomas last week but instead got his answering machine. Thomas did not return the call. Williams said he called Thomas to let him know that "reports that me and Jerry Manuel are trying to push him out were totally erroneous."

"Tellem called it "a no-risk free agency." And said they would continue negotiations with the Sox while exploring their options. Tellem already has been in contact with at least two teams."

"The Sox are preparing for a post-Thomas era, in case someone comes up with the cash. They may not expect it to happen, but stranger things have happened in the wild-and-crazy baseball market."

Sullivan's story also quotes Williams as saying that HE invoked the clause and that Jerry Reinsdorf went along with him.

My opinion on this whole situation is that the Sox are saying all the "right" things but don't really want him back. They are doing everything they can to make it look like they want him but I just sense that they don't have their "hearts" in it. They are more concerned about a massive fans backlash (a la Carlton Fisk) if they give even the slightest hint of trying to drive him off.

Contrary to what a lot of WSI people have been saying, it looks like there could very well be a market for Thomas after all!

If he goes, it'll be interesting to see how the fans respond, if in fact, they will boycott, not buy tickets etc as well as what the Sox do with the "savings" from Thomas' deal.

They could eliminate a fan backlash by taking that ten million per season and getting a pitcher and catcher to make them better. The next month will be VERY interesting...

Lip

Lip Man 1
10-29-2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Pale Hose George:

What "team" concept would that be, Kenny? The '89 Sox team you were part of that lost 92 games and never made it out of last place? Is that the one, Kenny?

No George, it's those harmonious Sox team's put together by Williams the last two years!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

The fun never ends with Sox management eh?????

Lip

bc2k
10-29-2002, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
[B]

My opinion on this whole situation is that the Sox are saying all the "right" things but don't really want him back. They are doing everything they can to make it look like they want him but I just sense that they don't have their "hearts" in it. They are more concerned about a massive fans backlash (a la Carlton Fisk) if they give even the slightest hint of trying to drive him off.

Contrary to what a lot of WSI people have been saying, it looks like there could very well be a market for Thomas after all!

If he goes, it'll be interesting to see how the fans respond, if in fact, they will boycott, not buy tickets etc as well as what the Sox do with the "savings" from Thomas' deal.

They could eliminate a fan backlash by taking that ten million per season and getting a pitcher and catcher to make them better. The next month will be VERY interesting...

Lip

I agree Lip Man. From my readings, I think the Sox are just trying to sound like they want him back.
Judging from all the boos the man deservedly received over the season, I don't think there will be much of a boycott of the Sox product. And if they use that cash and put it into a front-line starter with skills undiminished, I'd bet attendance would increase.

Nellie_Fox
10-29-2002, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I agree Lip Man. From my readings, I think the Sox are just trying to sound like they want him back.
Judging from all the boos the man deservedly received over the season, I don't think there will be much of a boycott of the Sox product. And if they use that cash and put it into a front-line starter with skills undiminished, I'd bet attendance would increase. Yes, we know bc2k. You will be very happy if Frank is gone. You've made that very clear.

Do you really think they'll use the money to sign a front-line starter? You're dreaming. Besides, Frank plays every day. A starter plays every fifth day. There's no way a pitcher means as much as an every-day player.

Jerry_Manuel
10-29-2002, 01:17 AM
"Williams said he tried to call Thomas last week but instead got his answering machine. Thomas did not return the call. Williams said he called Thomas to let him know that "reports that me and Jerry Manuel are trying to push him out were totally erroneous."

BS, Kenny. Just like I've been saying he wants him gone. I'm sure Manuel wouldn't mind him leaving since he and Frank don't really get along, but he better not try to pin it on Manuel. This guy is such a snake in the grass.

"Tellem called it "a no-risk free agency." And said they would continue negotiations with the Sox while exploring their options. Tellem already has been in contact with at least two teams."

Baltimore and Boston.

Sullivan's story also quotes Williams as saying that HE invoked the clause and that Jerry Reinsdorf went along with him.

Who told ya that first? That's right.

They could eliminate a fan backlash by taking that ten million per season and getting a pitcher and catcher to make them better. The next month will be VERY interesting...

Yes, it will. We agree again.

voodoochile
10-29-2002, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I agree Lip Man. From my readings, I think the Sox are just trying to sound like they want him back.
Judging from all the boos the man deservedly received over the season, I don't think there will be much of a boycott of the Sox product. And if they use that cash and put it into a front-line starter with skills undiminished, I'd bet attendance would increase.

It will increase regardless of what they do because they have the AS game this year. I am sure that factors into their thinking. If this were 2004 and the situation were the same, they could expect to take a hit attendancewise, but this year they can do it and still see an increase regardless of how they spend or don't spend the money. Then by 2004, some of the anger will have subsided because fans have a short memory. Sox are looking to make bank while the money is good and that is it. Then they can cry poor poor us, once again in 2004 and keep on raking in the dough...

Kenny sucks!
JR sucks!

If Frank gets chased out of town, I am done with this team until JR sells, period. Not like it will matter anyway. They won't field a winner unless they can do it on the cheap and make money in the process. Nothing wrong with that in most businesses, but in most businesses if you go 22 years without winning the big one (whatever that is in your profession) you generally end up going out of business or having to do something to make the customers feel like you actually care...

Did I mention?

Kenny sucks!
JR sucks!

Vsahajpal
10-29-2002, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Besides, Frank plays every day. A starter plays every fifth day. There's no way a pitcher means as much as an every-day player.


Obviously it depends on the pitcher and player in question; if it is a frontline starter, they'd probably mean more. A guy like Buehrle for instance, faced 908 hitters this year. Most everyday players will get between 600-700 AB a season. A frontline innings-eater is worth his weight in gold.

Mark was the 11th best starter in baseball this year, 10th most valuable and ultimately more valuable than guys like Shawn Green, Mike Piazza, Bobby Abreu, Jeff Bagwell and a host of other premium position players.

SNW rankings (Top 30 pitchers, Bottom 10, etc)
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/snwlreport02.html


VORP for pitchers
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/vorpp2002.htm

VORP for position players
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/vorp2002.htm


what's VORP?
http://www.stathead.com/bbeng/woolner/vorpdescnew.htm

PaleHoseGeorge
10-29-2002, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Obviously it depends on the pitcher and player in question; if it is a frontline starter, they'd probably mean more. A guy like Buehrle for instance, faced 908 hitters this year. Most everyday players will get between 600-700 AB a season. A frontline innings-eater is worth his weight in gold.

Mark was the 11th best starter in baseball this year, 10th most valuable and ultimately more valuable than guys like Shawn Green, Mike Piazza, Bobby Abreu, Jeff Bagwell and a host of other premium position players.

Yes, and Buehrle got paid like any other pitcher who isn't eligible for salary arbitration. He was probably the biggest steal in all of baseball last year. Reinsdorf and Williams treated him exactly as they would any other star they drafted for free: they cut their salary offer just to make a point who was the boss!

So if you think we're heading towards happier times when the Sox have $10 million more to spend without Frank Thomas, think again. KW and JR are still running this operation. Rather than paying Buehrle what he is worth, we'll probably see a scenario similar to Jack McDowell's in the early-90's.

The Sox went to salary arbitration with McDowell EVERY YEAR, never rewarding him with a long-term contract because JR doesn't believe in them. (Sorry JR--the market dictates that top pitchers can get long-term deals. Pouting about it makes your team a perrennial loser.)

The Sox will suck with or without Frank Thomas. That's because Frank Thomas was never the problem. If you want REAL CHANGE for the Sox, aim a bit higher.

kermittheefrog
10-29-2002, 10:19 AM
But also remember that the pitcher works in tandem with the defense. Plus the batter has a bit more to do with what happens in an at bat than a pitcher. Think about those variables and look at the numbers. You'll find a great hitter puts more runs on the board than a great pitcher takes off.

doublem23
10-29-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I agree Lip Man. From my readings, I think the Sox are just trying to sound like they want him back.
Judging from all the boos the man deservedly received over the season, I don't think there will be much of a boycott of the Sox product. And if they use that cash and put it into a front-line starter with skills undiminished, I'd bet attendance would increase.

If Frank goes, and they don't get a Maddux or a Glavine with the money they save, I doubt I'll be making any stops to Comiskey in 2003.

hold2dibber
10-29-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
If Frank goes, and they don't get a Maddux or a Glavine with the money they save, I doubt I'll be making any stops to Comiskey in 2003.

If Frank leaves, I will be livid.

If Frank leaves and they don't otherwise significantly upgrade the team this off season, I will be so far beyond livid that the light from livid will take 1,000,000,000 years to reach me, and I will make it my personal mission in life to bankrupt and humiliate JR and KW, and to destroy all that they hold dear.

Lip Man 1
10-29-2002, 12:30 PM
I recommend reading Joe Cowley's article on the Thomas situation in today's Daily Southtown.

The first few paragraphs are quite telling!

Lip

voodoochile
10-29-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I recommend reading Joe Cowley's article on the Thomas situation in today's Daily Southtown.

The first few paragraphs are quite telling!

Lip

Can you post a link please?

ode to veeck
10-29-2002, 12:40 PM
So if you think we're heading towards happier times when the Sox have $10 million more to spend without Frank Thomas, think again. KW and JR are still running this operation. Rather than paying Buehrle what he is worth, we'll probably see a scenario similar to Jack McDowell's in the early-90's.

Absolutely, we will not see that $10M used to bolster the Sox in any effective way.

Once the AS game bump passes, there'll be a net loss of some additional 'core' Sox fans who just can't take it anymore after seeing the organization dish the greatest hitter in Sox history--

JR will just blame the fans for not coming out and pocket the money, while in find his organization is doing nothing to maintain the fans interest, or more accurately, are taking actions that actively drive the dedicated core fans away

fire KW, he is a disaster

cheeses_h_rice
10-29-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Can you post a link please?

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/291sd8.htm

White Sox general manager Ken Williams tried to stress over and over Monday that he and the organization wanted slugger Frank Thomas back on the South Side for the 2003 season.

It didn't even take reading between the lines, however, to raise doubt about how much Williams meant it.

...

"We are trying to stress that this team, heading into 2003, will sink or swim based on the drive and determination of each player, and each player willing to sacrifice themselves to the team concept," Williams said. "If Frank could adapt with what we're trying to do, we would all be better off for it.

"This is not a one-man show. It's a team game in its highest form. With all that he's accomplished, he still needs to be the man that we need him to be. If he's willing to adjust to that concept, then we'll be glad to have him back. At this point, we're willing to turn the page ."

...

A week before the end of the season, Thomas alleged that it was a "control thing" that Williams wanted full control over the clubhouse, "like a Triple-A team."

...

"Heart, character, desire ... all the characteristics that you can find in the Angels and Twins, and you cannot ignore them, they will not be ignored here. If we have to take a character person and sacrifice the raw talent, so be it ."


In other words, buh-bye Frank, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...

Nellie_Fox
10-29-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
If Frank goes, and they don't get a Maddux or a Glavine with the money they save, I doubt I'll be making any stops to Comiskey in 2003. Why would you want to invest in guys whose best years are clearly in their past? So we can watch their age catch up with them at Comiskey?

Vsahajpal
10-29-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yes, and Buehrle got paid like any other pitcher who isn't eligible for salary arbitration. He was probably the biggest steal in all of baseball last year. Reinsdorf and Williams treated him exactly as they would any other star they drafted for free: they cut their salary offer just to make a point who was the boss!

So if you think we're heading towards happier times when the Sox have $10 million more to spend without Frank Thomas, think again. KW and JR are still running this operation. Rather than paying Buehrle what he is worth, we'll probably see a scenario similar to Jack McDowell's in the early-90's.

The Sox went to salary arbitration with McDowell EVERY YEAR, never rewarding him with a long-term contract because JR doesn't believe in them. (Sorry JR--the market dictates that top pitchers can get long-term deals. Pouting about it makes your team a perrennial loser.)

The Sox will suck with or without Frank Thomas. That's because Frank Thomas was never the problem. If you want REAL CHANGE for the Sox, aim a bit higher.


Actually, PHG, I was just refuting the point that an everyday player is more valuable than a pitcher...and just using Buehrle as an example

:)

Arsenal's late form getting to ya?

bc2k
10-29-2002, 01:07 PM
Frank has until Dec. 7 to find a new team. Today is Oct. 29. Maddux, Glavine, and probably Moyer will be already signed before Dec. 7. So that ties JR's hands. Now it's not either Thomas or a starter. If JR goes ahead and signs Maddux before Dec 7, and Frank decides to come back, then he's stuck with massive payroll. But if JR waits to see what Thomas decides and Thomas leaves after the top free agent starters have been signed, the Sox fans are really screwed by getting neither. So if Thomas really wants to stick it to JR (and us fans) he'd sign with another team only after all the premier free agent pitchers have been signed.

bc2k
10-29-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Why would you want to invest in guys whose best years are clearly in their past? So we can watch their age catch up with them at Comiskey?

Can't you say the same thing about the 34 year old Frank who is under contract for the next four years.

Iwritecode
10-29-2002, 01:14 PM
"Heart, character, desire ... all the characteristics that you can find in the Angels and Twins, and you cannot ignore them, they will not be ignored here. If we have to take a character person and sacrifice the raw talent, so be it ."

What the?!? Maybe it's just me but isn't talent usually more important than heart and desire? Hell, if that was the case, I need to try out for the team. I want a championship as much as anyone and would play my heart out to do it but I doubt if I could hit a 93 MPH fastball to save my life...

Vsahajpal
10-29-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
But also remember that the pitcher works in tandem with the defense. Plus the batter has a bit more to do with what happens in an at bat than a pitcher. Think about those variables and look at the numbers. You'll find a great hitter puts more runs on the board than a great pitcher takes off.

Well, then I'll continue when the 2002 DIPS are out, but I don't see much difference if the pitcher affects a substantially larger number of AB's. Not to mention, the effect an Ace can have on the entire staff. I'm not sure about your last statement, it depends on the players doesn't it?

Iwritecode
10-29-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
If JR goes ahead and signs Maddux before Dec 7, and Frank decides to come back, then he's stuck with massive payroll.

$60-70 million is not a massive payroll these days. JR needs to keep FT and sign a top-of-the-line starter...

:reinsy

BAH HA HA HA HA!!! Keep dreaming you worthless "fans"!

BTW, hurry up and buy your season tickets so you are guaranteed seats to this year's all-star game!

PaleHoseGeorge
10-29-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
What the?!? Maybe it's just me but isn't talent usually more important than heart and desire? Hell, if that was the case, I need to try out for the team. I want a championship as much as anyone and would play my heart out to do it but I doubt if I could hit a 93 MPH fastball to save my life...

LOL! You got that right.

If all it takes to play on KW's team is heart and desire, he could take any nine of the posters here and have his own dream team.

Take me, for example. For a chance to be a big league ballplayer playing for my beloved Chicago White Sox, here is what I GUARANTEE I will do my entire stay with the team.

1. Run balls out all the way down to first base on every last nubber I manage to get a piece of (not that that will happen very often).

2. Glare at the pitcher, stomp back into the dugout, and act really pissed off everytime I strikeout (which ought to happen a lot).

3. Run as fast as I can (which isn't very) for everything even remotely hit my direction. I will throw the ball as hard as I can (though not necessarily accurately) everytime I touch the ball.

4. I will sit on the bench and make lots of chatter. I will pat guys on the rump at all the appropriate times--and never at an inappropriate time.

5. I will diligently answer every question the media asks me (not that anyone would bother) and use every sports cliche ever uttered to make everyone think I'm the ultimate team player--even if I don't really believe in what I'm saying.

Most of all, I would do it all for food money, though I'll gladly accept the major league minimum salary--which ought to make my wife quite happy, too. Getting me out of the house for six straight months would be a plus, too. :smile:

Being a good team player for KW is easy. Being a major league ballplayer is something quite different. Figures that idiot working for the Sox can't tell the difference.

:KW
"Let me tell you about the great team chemistry we had back on the '89 Sox..."

Cheryl
10-29-2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
LOL! You got that right.


Take me, for example. For a chance to be a big league ballplayer playing for my beloved Chicago White Sox, here is what I GUARANTEE I will do my entire stay with the team.



You forgot :

SIt in the dugout for the entire game, wearing my full uniform including shoes whether I got in the game or not.

RichH55
10-29-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
You forgot :

SIt in the dugout for the entire game, wearing my full uniform including shoes whether I got in the game or not.


LMAO....ahhh Royce with Navarro the bash brothers of White Sox lore

RichH55
10-29-2002, 01:48 PM
Question salary wise: Part of Frank's contract would already be deferred so the net savings for this year would "only" be like 6.5-7 million correct? Just wondering because that 10 million figure is being thrown around alot

RichH55
10-29-2002, 01:57 PM
Speaking of Salaries...how much payroll needs to be cut? Geez...I have been figuring that going after a starter like Moyer while even retaining Frank without the clause invoked was entirely posible. From the start of the year you don't have Perry's contract (1.5million IIRC), Lofton (1.25 or so), Singleton (800 K or so, though that could be less), Ray (6-8 million), Alomar(2 million), Royce(4.5 million), and you can probably figure in a pay cut of some sort for Ritchie, and you don't have to figure in the Wells buyout this year either, plus extra gate due to the All-Star game. Most of the kids brought up are making close to the league average and Borchard gets his money either way so that would already be factored into the budget. Of course with their contracts Mags, Foulke, Konerko(due for a nice raise), and I think Lee will all make more than last year. Buerhle is due for a raise of some sort. Though factoring all that in you should still be better off in payroll 8-10 million from the break of spring training last year. That includes Frank's old contract numbers. Shouldn't that allow us to sign Moyer and resign to longer deals both Konerko and Buerhle? And that is without asking for a significant increase in payroll. If you cut that extra 7 million or so from Frank, then there shouldn't be any reason in the world we don't see a Moyer type # 2 and a bevy of guys resigned long term.....KW isn't a great GM, really trying to hold onto mediocre, but this offseason could go to show if he is flat out the worst in the game...ugh

voodoochile
10-29-2002, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Can't you say the same thing about the 34 year old Frank who is under contract for the next four years.

Where is the evidence for this? You still cannot prove that in any way shape or form, not even with a healthy dose of statistic finagling.

Prove this point, or let it rest. Crap or get off the pot. We all know you don't like Frank and you have said it over and over again, but you don't have stats to back you up. Point to this season and there is ample reason to believe it was at least partially due to rehabilitation from a career threatening injury (more so when you factor in Frank's late season numbers). His last full healthy season he posted MVP style numbers and prior to that, though his numbers were down, they were still the envy of 90% of the players in the league. You don't have a leg to stand on.

If Frank struggles next year and cannot post good numbers, you will have no argument from me or many others, but right now, you cannot make this argument without showing bias...

34 Inch Stick
10-29-2002, 02:47 PM
If all of you define "a Moyer, Maddux or Glavine TYPE..." as Steve Trachsell I think you will all be pleasantly suprised with Kenny's off season.

Otherwise let the bitching begin because we are going to get stuck with some third rate pitcher.

Nellie_Fox
10-29-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Can't you say the same thing about the 34 year old Frank who is under contract for the next four years. Glavine and Maddux are both 36. What is more likely based on what we have seen; pitchers or hitters continuing to be productive into their late 30's and even 40's? It seems that hitters are much more likely to do it.

voodoochile
10-29-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
$60-70 million is not a massive payroll these days. JR needs to keep FT and sign a top-of-the-line starter...

:reinsy

BAH HA HA HA HA!!! Keep dreaming you worthless "fans"!

BTW, hurry up and buy your season tickets so you are guaranteed seats to this year's all-star game!

Exactly. IF this team keeps waiting for the fans to spend their money so the team can field a winner AND make a guaranteed profit, then they will be waiting a long long time and attendance will continue to decline with those rare seasons when the right group of cheap/young players puts it all together and manages a run at the playoffs and first round elimination. This isn't 1955. Teams have to spend money on FA TALENT (there's that word again) if they want to stand a chance at the ultimate prize and support from their fan base.

JR and KW will never understand this and their actions will kill this franchise long before it ever produces a WS WS winner...

:selljerry

hold2dibber
10-29-2002, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Speaking of Salaries...how much payroll needs to be cut? Geez...I have been figuring that going after a starter like Moyer while even retaining Frank without the clause invoked was entirely posible. From the start of the year you don't have Perry's contract (1.5million IIRC), Lofton (1.25 or so), Singleton (800 K or so, though that could be less), Ray (6-8 million), Alomar(2 million), Royce(4.5 million), and you can probably figure in a pay cut of some sort for Ritchie, and you don't have to figure in the Wells buyout this year either, plus extra gate due to the All-Star game. Most of the kids brought up are making close to the league average and Borchard gets his money either way so that would already be factored into the budget. Of course with their contracts Mags, Foulke, Konerko(due for a nice raise), and I think Lee will all make more than last year. Buerhle is due for a raise of some sort. Though factoring all that in you should still be better off in payroll 8-10 million from the break of spring training last year. That includes Frank's old contract numbers. Shouldn't that allow us to sign Moyer and resign to longer deals both Konerko and Buerhle? And that is without asking for a significant increase in payroll. If you cut that extra 7 million or so from Frank, then there shouldn't be any reason in the world we don't see a Moyer type # 2 and a bevy of guys resigned long term.....KW isn't a great GM, really trying to hold onto mediocre, but this offseason could go to show if he is flat out the worst in the game...ugh

Also, don't forget the nearly $2 million in payroll saved by dealing Howry and at least $500,000 saved off of Parque's 2002 salary. Also, at least some reports suggest that the Sox will receive a few million extra in revenue sharing under the new CBA. The team's ability to go out and get pitching help should NOT in anyway be contingent upon what happens with Frank. The only thing that should change if Frank leaves is, they'll be in desparate need of another stick (either LF, with Lee moving to DH or a DH).

duke of dorwood
10-29-2002, 03:33 PM
They have had enough money and will have more to field a winner. They just dont want to.

RichH55
10-29-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Also, don't forget the nearly $2 million in payroll saved by dealing Howry and at least $500,000 saved off of Parque's 2002 salary. Also, at least some reports suggest that the Sox will receive a few million extra in revenue sharing under the new CBA. The team's ability to go out and get pitching help should NOT in anyway be contingent upon what happens with Frank. The only thing that should change if Frank leaves is, they'll be in desparate need of another stick (either LF, with Lee moving to DH or a DH).


I knew I was forgetting someone.......nice catch

bc2k
10-29-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Where is the evidence for this? You still cannot prove that in any way shape or form, not even with a healthy dose of statistic finagling.

Prove this point, or let it rest. Crap or get off the pot. We all know you don't like Frank and you have said it over and over again, but you don't have stats to back you up. Point to this season and there is ample reason to believe it was at least partially due to rehabilitation from a career threatening injury (more so when you factor in Frank's late season numbers). His last full healthy season he posted MVP style numbers and prior to that, though his numbers were down, they were still the envy of 90% of the players in the league. You don't have a leg to stand on.

If Frank struggles next year and cannot post good numbers, you will have no argument from me or many others, but right now, you cannot make this argument without showing bias...


Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Glavine and Maddux are both 36. What is more likely based on what we have seen; pitchers or hitters continuing to be productive into their late 30's and even 40's? It seems that hitters are much more likely to do it.

To answer your question Nellie, I'd say hitters are more likely to continue late career success. I think Maddux is the exception to that rule. Oh and when we're comparing a rabidly obese hitter against a physically fit pitcher, the scales are tipped a bit (oh hell yeah that pun was intended).

And Voodoo, you kind of answered your own question by talking of stats from Frank's last healthy year. You recognize how injury prone Thomas is. And for a DH to get hurt so often, is very troubling. How can a DH get injured so often? The only thing I can think of would be from a collision at the plate, and with this DH, we don't have to worry about that. Of course we all know Thomas tore his tricep playing 1b and his foot problem was not baseball related. Regardless of how, the man still gets injured too often.

NewyorkSoxFan
10-29-2002, 04:15 PM
Time for NY Sox fan to weigh in... As you all know I am not the biggest Frank T. fan. However, for an organization that must feel that negative pub is as good as any defies sane reasoning.

I will reserve judgement on this until we get into free agency, and KW starts his dancing in the media of all the people he has set up for interviews. (ARod Scenario) What befuddles me is that if they want to be #1 in Chi, all they have to do is win the division or get to the ALCS a couple of times. We have a 60 million dollar payroll with no real drawing card (forgive me Maggs but know one buys tickets to see him). If they brought maddox back just to stick it to the Cubs that would impress me.

Here George Stienbrenner would never let the Mets out perform him. I understand Chicago is not NY, but with a 75 million dollar payroll you could compete in the AL. Of course you need some brains at the top, but that withstanding you could compete.

Ok I've gone on much to long but they are starting to piss me off!!!

NYSF

Nellie_Fox
10-29-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
To answer your question Nellie, I'd say hitters are more likely to continue late career success. I think Maddux is the exception to that rule. Oh and when we're comparing a rabidly obese hitter against a physically fit pitcher, the scales are tipped a bit (oh hell yeah that pun was intended). You have no credibility. You allow your hatred of Frank to drive you to take positions that have absolutely no basis in fact. You constantly exaggerate Frank's weight. He is a big man, but he is in no way obese (and "rabidly" as adjective with obese doesn't even make sense. What the hell does rabies have to do with it?) His stomach is flat as a board. There are no fat rolls hanging over his belt. Criticizing him by making things up (which you have done repeatedly since you have been on this board) just makes me dismiss everything you say about him.

At least use honest criticism. You are very close to becoming the first WSI poster I ever put on ignore. I've never done it to anyone I strongly disagreed with, because honest disagreement is not a big thing. But if you insist on making your points with dishonesty, then there is no reason to read your stuff.

voodoochile
10-29-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
To answer your question Nellie, I'd say hitters are more likely to continue late career success. I think Maddux is the exception to that rule. Oh and when we're comparing a rabidly obese hitter against a physically fit pitcher, the scales are tipped a bit (oh hell yeah that pun was intended).

And Voodoo, you kind of answered your own question by talking of stats from Frank's last healthy year. You recognize how injury prone Thomas is. And for a DH to get hurt so often, is very troubling. How can a DH get injured so often? The only thing I can think of would be from a collision at the plate, and with this DH, we don't have to worry about that. Of course we all know Thomas tore his tricep playing 1b and his foot problem was not baseball related. Regardless of how, the man still gets injured too often.

Well, lets see...

The only two major injuries that Frank has had in his career were a bone spur (ended his 1999 season a month early) which anyone can get and a torn tricept (caused by diving for a ball while playing first base). Got anymore issues you want debunked? Your statement not only doesn't hold water, it is worth as much as your contention that Frank is rabidly obese. You are so anti-Frank that you will say anything to make your point, but at this point in time you are starting to stretch the truth to the point of lying and posting misinformation. What's the point of that, just to make yourself look like an idiot?

You can do better than that can't you?

Jerry_Manuel
10-29-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
In other words, buh-bye Frank, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...

That's what he wants.

Like I said on 10-18.... (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=134257#post134257)

Lip Man 1
10-29-2002, 08:13 PM
Rich:

With respect.....

WHY this infatuation with Jamie Moyer??????????

He's going to be 40 next season!!!!!

If that's the best the Sox can do, they are in deeper excrement then I thought!

You get a pitcher of that age if you are very close to winning a title and need someone with experience. The Sox are NO WHERE close to winning ANYTHING.

If you are going to get pitching at least get some guys who can produce for the next five years by then you MAY be close to a crown.

Just my opinion.

Lip

Lip Man 1
10-29-2002, 08:18 PM
Hold 2 Dibber:

Can you please tell me specifically where you read that the Sox are going to get revenue sharing money?

Every person that I have talked to or interviewed (including Phil Rogers just last month) say the Sox will be getting NOTHING from revenue sharing and will have to pay about a million more in salaries even if they don't sign one free agent because the minimum MLB wage went up to 300,000.

I'm curious where you have seen this because I think it's bogus.

Lip

Jerry_Manuel
10-29-2002, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
WHY this infatuation with Jamie Moyer??????????

He's going to be 40 next season!!!!!

If that's the best the Sox can do, they are in deeper excrement then I thought!


That's our Sox.

Jerry_Manuel
10-29-2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Can you please tell me specifically where you read that the Sox are going to get revenue sharing money?

Every person that I have talked to or interviewed (including Phil Rogers just last month) say the Sox will be getting NOTHING from revenue sharing and will have to pay about a million more in salaries even if they don't sign one free agent because the minimum MLB wage went up to 300,000.


Twins are getting it, Sox are not. That's what I have seen and heard.

idseer
10-29-2002, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dan Rohn of WGN-TV Sports reported tonight (9:50 PM Central Time) that he spoke with Sox GM Ken Williams on the Frank Thomas situation today.

Rohn said Williams told him, "the Sox would love to have Frank Thomas back, BUT only if he's willing to fit into the team concept."

Rohn then said "if Thomas isn't willing to do that, the Sox are prepared to turn the page without him..."

Just FYI

Lip

jr is full of crap and kw is full of crap!

that being said, i agree with the premise that thomas is not much of a team player. he never was as far as i ever saw. he's been a great hitter who has produced some great numbers but it's always been mostly about him. when he's tearing up the league you can live with that, but when he's not ... people dislike the guy. i've always believed in any sport no one is bigger than the game and those that won't really cooperate can take a hike. i think he's worn out his welcome and most sox fans won't mind the change (just my opinion). in any event, the sox can certainly lose just as well without him.

i don't pretend to know what jr would do with the money he'd save if frank left, but i have to believe somewhere down the line that money would be put to use to try to help the team one way or another. if nothing else it will make it easier for him to cough up a little more to the players who'll be taking him to arbitration.

( i still firmly believe, however, the sox will never win a championship with jr running the show)

Tragg
10-30-2002, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
If Frank goes, and they don't get a Maddux or a Glavine with the money they save, I doubt I'll be making any stops to Comiskey in 2003.

Glavine won't get a 12 inch outside corner as a member of the Sox. Both of those guys are on the shadow side of their careers.

oldcomiskey
10-30-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Frank has until Dec. 7 to find a new team. Today is Oct. 29. Maddux, Glavine, and probably Moyer will be already signed before Dec. 7. So that ties JR's hands. Now it's not either Thomas or a starter. If JR goes ahead and signs Maddux before Dec 7, and Frank decides to come back, then he's stuck with massive payroll. But if JR waits to see what Thomas decides and Thomas leaves after the top free agent starters have been signed, the Sox fans are really screwed by getting neither. So if Thomas really wants to stick it to JR (and us fans) he'd sign with another team only after all the premier free agent pitchers have been signed.

ala Fat Albert

oldcomiskey
10-30-2002, 07:51 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bc2k
To answer your question [B]Nellie, I'd say hitters are more likely to continue late career success. I think Maddux is the exception to that rule. Oh and when we're comparing a rabidly obese hitter against a physically fit pitcher, the scales are tipped a bit (oh hell yeah that pun was intended).
when did we get Mo Vaughn----or get Bull Luzinski back