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Daver
10-22-2002, 09:32 PM
I've been out of the loop for awhile,if this was posted please disregard.

Chicago White Sox
Five Tools of Ignorance

CHICAGO–While submariner Chad Bradford already has enjoyed two solid seasons for playoff teams in Oakland, the White Sox remain hopeful they will still get the better end of one the first trades made by general manager Ken Williams. That’s because Miguel Olivo has the talent to become an all-star.

Double-A Birmingham manager Wally Backman raves about Olivo, who carried the Barons to the Southern League title. He calls Olivo a five-tool player, always an impressive designation. But when was the last time you heard it said about a catcher?

Olivo was known for his tremendous arm strength in his four seasons in the Athletics organization. But his overall athleticism has made him not just the White Sox’ catcher of the future but a possible impact player.

"He’s going to be a good player," Backman said. "He’s a quality kid. He’s a five-tool guy. He didn’t show a lot of power but he’s got it. We’ve got a big ballpark."

In his second full season at Birmingham, Olivo raised his batting average from .259 to .306. He had six homers and drove in 49 runs. He led the league with 10 triples and stole 29 bases in 42 tries.

"All of his steals were legit, not on the back end (of a double steal)," Backman said. "Hopefully Miguel won’t lose his speed as he gets older. He was the fastest guy I had."

Backman compares Olivo’s arm to that of 10-time Gold Glover Ivan Rodriguez. He hasn’t developed the same footwork but has improved his receiving since coming to the Sox.

Olivo made his major league debut on Sept. 15, two days after being named MVP of the Southern League championship series. He had four homers and nine RBIs in nine playoff games, then stayed on a roll by homering off Andy Pettitte in his first big league at-bat.

"This is so great for me," Olivo said. "I’m so proud right now. I come here ready to play, and if anything happens good, then I thank God for that."

Barring a trade or free-agent signing, Olivo will compete with Mark Johnson and Josh Paul for playing time next spring. Johnson and Paul seem more suited for backup roles, so Olivo could have a window of opportunity.

HawkDJ
10-22-2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by daver

I come here ready to play



:jerry
That's my boy

RKMeibalane
10-22-2002, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
:jerry
That's my boy

It's too bad Olivio won't be in the lineup everyday, because Manuel will use his presence as another excuse to "tinker" with the lineup.

Jerry_Manuel
10-22-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
It's too bad Olivio won't be in the lineup everyday, because Manuel will use his presence as another excuse to "tinker" with the lineup.

Yes and no.

If they do indeed get rid of Johnson, than the whole lefty-righty thing goes out the window.

Plus Olivo is a Williams guy so he'll be in there.

RKMeibalane
10-22-2002, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Yes and no.

If they do indeed get rid of Johnson, than the whole lefty-righty thing goes out the window.

Plus Olivo is a Williams guy so he'll be in there.

How does Olivio rate defensively? Is he capable of throwing out base-runners? Can he call a game? If he's capable of doing these things (as any catcher should be), then I see no reason to be concerned about getting rid of Johnson. The only negative about his impending departure is that Josh Paul will see additional playing time.

Jerry_Manuel
10-22-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
How does Olivio rate defensively? Is he capable of throwing out base-runners? Can he call a game? If he's capable of doing these things (as any catcher should be), then I see no reason to be concerned about getting rid of Johnson. The only negative about his impending departure is that Josh Paul will see additional playing time.

I'm not crying because Mark Johnson may be gone, I'm just saying Manuel likes to use lefty-righty matchups. If the left-handed catcher is off the team, Olivo would play more.

RichH55
10-22-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
I'm not crying because Mark Johnson may be gone, I'm just saying Manuel likes to use lefty-righty matchups. If the left-handed catcher is off the team, Olivo would play more.


Well that and the fact that Olivio's growing pains as a rookie should be twice as good as the "veteran" prowless of either Paul or Johnson(who combined dont even make a decent catcher)...who has the sig that says its Olivio Time? Thats what i need right noW! :gulp:

hold2dibber
10-23-2002, 08:16 AM
If the Sox indeed plan on having Olivo on the major league roster from day 1 next year, they'd be insane to dump MJ in favor of Josh Paul. First, the lefty-righty aspect. Second, although MJ is not much of a starting catcher, he does have good fundamentals and plays smart. I think he'd be a good mentor for Olivo.

Iguana775
10-23-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If the Sox indeed plan on having Olivo on the major league roster from day 1 next year, they'd be insane to dump MJ in favor of Josh Paul. First, the lefty-righty aspect. Second, although MJ is not much of a starting catcher, he does have good fundamentals and plays smart. I think he'd be a good mentor for Olivo.

but josh is so versitile!!! lol

Foulke You
10-23-2002, 01:52 PM
I've grown weary of watching MJ try to hit and Josh Paul try to catch and throw out runners. We need a change behind the plate. As a critic of the Bradford deal, I REALLY hope I'm wrong and Olivo is our answer. We haven't had a solid catcher since Karko. Sorry, renting CJ for 2 months doesn't count! If I had to choose the backup, I'd go with MJ but look who is the cheaper of the two in salary, and that is the one we'll go with.

hold2dibber
10-23-2002, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
If I had to choose the backup, I'd go with MJ but look who is the cheaper of the two in salary, and that is the one we'll go with.

I'd rather have a catcher that can't hit than a catcher that can't catch. And whatever the difference is between MJ's salary and Paul's salary, it surely ain't much.

Daver
10-23-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
How does Olivio rate defensively? Is he capable of throwing out base-runners? Can he call a game? If he's capable of doing these things (as any catcher should be), then I see no reason to be concerned about getting rid of Johnson. The only negative about his impending departure is that Josh Paul will see additional playing time.

Olivo has a cannon arm and a good throw to second base,as a backstop he handles himself well behind the plate,and he should be able to be a .250 hitter type hitter in the majors with a little power,but he needs time to fully develop his game calling skills.
He calls a better game than Paul can right now (unless you take into consideration the fact that Joe Nosseck calls the game when Paul catches) but he could use another year at Charlotte to round out his game calling skills.

RichH55
10-24-2002, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If the Sox indeed plan on having Olivo on the major league roster from day 1 next year, they'd be insane to dump MJ in favor of Josh Paul. First, the lefty-righty aspect. Second, although MJ is not much of a starting catcher, he does have good fundamentals and plays smart. I think he'd be a good mentor for Olivo.


I understand your point about Paul....but what exactly has MJ ever done to warrant being a "mentor?" This isn't Charlie O'brien we are talking about here....MJ isnt that far removed from youngster/prospect level and he certainly hasnt shown anything at the major league level

voodoochile
10-24-2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I understand your point about Paul....but what exactly has MJ ever done to warrant being a "mentor?" This isn't Charlie O'brien we are talking about here....MJ isnt that far removed from youngster/prospect level and he certainly hasnt shown anything at the major league level

What happened to that catcher we picked up from the Pirates in one of the trades last year?

Knowing Sox management, this decision will partially come down to money and MJ would be better paid than Paul wouldn't he? If they view them as being equal, the cheaper one will get the call. And of course there is that versatility factor - after all, Paul can play left field.

Honestly speaking if Olivo is going to catch 130 games next year, which bat would you rather have sitting on the bench for pinch hitting duties? As to the L/R situation, why would we want to give JM one MORE reason to tinker? If both catcher hit rightie, then JM has to start the most talented one, doesn't he?

hold2dibber
10-24-2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by daver
Olivo has a cannon arm and a good throw to second base,as a backstop he handles himself well behind the plate,and he should be able to be a .250 hitter type hitter in the majors with a little power,but he needs time to fully develop his game calling skills.
He calls a better game than Paul can right now (unless you take into consideration the fact that Joe Nosseck calls the game when Paul catches) but he could use another year at Charlotte to round out his game calling skills.

It's good to have Daver back! Thanks for the insight.

hold2dibber
10-24-2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I understand your point about Paul....but what exactly has MJ ever done to warrant being a "mentor?" This isn't Charlie O'brien we are talking about here....MJ isnt that far removed from youngster/prospect level and he certainly hasnt shown anything at the major league level

I'm no scout, so I may be in over my head here, but Johnson (despite the results) seems to me to have a good approach at the plate (tries to move runners along, can lay down a bunt now and then, doesn't take huge cuts, etc.) and he seems to me to have good fundamentals behind the plate (he's pretty good at blocking balls, etc.). Generally, he doesn't seem to make mistakes (he's just not very good). Paul, on the other hand, does seem to make mistakes (e.g., base running gaffes, failing to get in the right position to block balls behind the plate or to block runners at the plate etc.). This is all based on my non-expert opinion which is in turn based upon anecdotal evidence (i.e., games and plays I can recall) so I may be wrong. But that's my impression and that's why I think MJ would be a better teacher than Paul.

maurice
10-24-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
he could use another year at Charlotte to round out his game calling skills.

Just curious, but why do you think that Olivo could benefit from a year at AAA, but Borchard should be with the team out of spring training? Both still need some work both defensively and offensively. Both are slated to replace players with mediocre major leage careers.

Daver
10-24-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Just curious, but why do you think that Olivo could benefit from a year at AAA, but Borchard should be with the team out of spring training? Both still need some work both defensively and offensively. Both are slated to replace players with mediocre major leage careers.

Borchard is an excellent all around athlete that can improve at the MLB level as an outfeilder,but the catching position takes a lot more than playing the position,you have to have an awareness of what the other 8 positions are doing as well as knowing your pitching staff and the opponents strengths and weaknesses at the plate,things that would be diffucult to try and do at the MLB level without a very good catcher ahead of you to help you along,the Sox do not have that.

Daver
10-24-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What happened to that catcher we picked up from the Pirates in one of the trades last year?



Lee Evans was the guy you are thinking of,he is not exactly a world beater at catcher,and has been used quite a bit at first base in Charlotte.He is more than likely a career minor leauger.

guillen4life13
10-24-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by maurice


Just curious, but why do you think that Olivo could benefit from a year at AAA, but Borchard should be with the team out of spring training? Both still need some work both defensively and offensively. Both are slated to replace players with mediocre major leage careers.


Here's what I think. Borchard needs a year at AAA to cut down on his K's. He has a gun, and his defense is more than likely going to be solid since he is also a pretty solid runner.

Honestly, I'd be more for bringing up Olivo (btw why does everyone spell it "Olivio" with 2 "i"'s?). We don't have a decent backup catcher, and the catcher we should keep should definitely be Johnson.

It may just be me, but Johnson is much better in come from behind rallies, because of his smallball approach. He's a good bunter, and he actually works himself to be as good as he can be.

RichH55
10-24-2002, 10:22 PM
I love the MJ defense....hes worthless as a ballplayer, but hes getting every ounce of worthlessness out there that he can

RichH55
10-24-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Here's what I think. Borchard needs a year at AAA to cut down on his K's. He has a gun, and his defense is more than likely going to be solid since he is also a pretty solid runner.

Honestly, I'd be more for bringing up Olivo (btw why does everyone spell it "Olivio" with 2 "i"'s?). We don't have a decent backup catcher, and the catcher we should keep should definitely be Johnson.

It may just be me, but Johnson is much better in come from behind rallies, because of his smallball approach. He's a good bunter, and he actually works himself to be as good as he can be.


Why in the world would you want MJ in during come from behind situations? Hitting simply not a strong point for him

guillen4life13
10-25-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Why in the world would you want MJ in during come from behind situations? Hitting simply not a strong point for him

in the very few rallies (the one that comes to mind first is the one in the vet) the sox had last year... mj played a pretty important part (didn't have the game tying/winning hit, but he got on base/had a valuable sacrafice bunt/fly/groundout)

RichH55
10-25-2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
in the very few rallies (the one that comes to mind first is the one in the vet) the sox had last year... mj played a pretty important part (didn't have the game tying/winning hit, but he got on base/had a valuable sacrafice bunt/fly/groundout)


So small sample size to start off with.......but why would you want a poor, poor hitter up when you are down? Especially if you a down by more than 1........do we not have a plethora of hitters on the bench who you would rather have at the plate than MJ? THere isnt the greatest case to be made for bringing him back to start with, but any case for MJ staying should not mention his bat(or lackthereof)

guillen4life13
10-26-2002, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
So small sample size to start off with.......but why would you want a poor, poor hitter up when you are down? Especially if you a down by more than 1........do we not have a plethora of hitters on the bench who you would rather have at the plate than MJ? THere isnt the greatest case to be made for bringing him back to start with, but any case for MJ staying should not mention his bat(or lackthereof)

here (and i think you'll agree with me): he's better than the alternative backup catcher (josh paul). would I rather have paul or johnson in a backup situation? johnson, no doubt. how about you?

wsi
10-26-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
in the very few rallies (the one that comes to mind first is the one in the vet) the sox had last year... mj played a pretty important part (didn't have the game tying/winning hit, but he got on base/had a valuable sacrafice bunt/fly/groundout)


He had the game winning triple in Tampa.

RichH55
10-27-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
here (and i think you'll agree with me): he's better than the alternative backup catcher (josh paul). would I rather have paul or johnson in a backup situation? johnson, no doubt. how about you?


I don't know....to me its like picking diseased oranges or rotten apples. Paul has the better stick and the more versalitlity(though that is a dirty word around here). Those are seemingly the most important qualifications for a backup, unless Olivo isn't going to play most of the games or gets hurt, then Paul looks less attractive. What Johnson does doesn't give you that much as a backup, unless we are the Braves and Buerhle gets his own catcher ala Maddux. Johnson just doesn't bring much to the table, of course neither does Paul. I honestly think this could come down to Paul being from Buffalo Grove, and thats a horrible way to determine a roster, but can I ask this: Do either MJ or Paul strike you as guys that should truly be on a major league roster?

Randar68
10-27-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I don't know....to me its like picking diseased oranges or rotten apples. Paul has the better stick and the more versalitlity(though that is a dirty word around here). Those are seemingly the most important qualifications for a backup, unless Olivo isn't going to play most of the games or gets hurt, then Paul looks less attractive.

Come on now. What, MJ will prolly hit .220-.230 at worst. Paul hits what, .250??? Neither has power, and while Josh is a little quicker on the paths, he's not that much faster than MJ. MJ is such a superior fundamental baseball player I am still astounded this conversation is being had.

It's as simple as this:

MJ does the things you need a catcher to do to win. Calls a good game. Solid defensively, moves runners over, and can sacrifice, and doesn't make boneheaded plays on a consistent basis. All of these things I mentioned are areas that Paul lacks in.

If, knowing this, you still want Josh, I have to ask....are you related????

RichH55
10-28-2002, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Come on now. What, MJ will prolly hit .220-.230 at worst. Paul hits what, .250??? Neither has power, and while Josh is a little quicker on the paths, he's not that much faster than MJ. MJ is such a superior fundamental baseball player I am still astounded this conversation is being had.

It's as simple as this:

MJ does the things you need a catcher to do to win. Calls a good game. Solid defensively, moves runners over, and can sacrifice, and doesn't make boneheaded plays on a consistent basis. All of these things I mentioned are areas that Paul lacks in.

If, knowing this, you still want Josh, I have to ask....are you related????


Look over my posts here, I have said quite clearly that I don't consider either to be major league material. Honestly, Paul's biggest upside is that he is from Buffalo Grove, and MJ's biggest upside is that Buerhle likes to pitch to him. Carlton Fisk eat your heart out.
But since we are arguing(and I don't even have a position lets see what we have)....MJ hitting .220-.230 at worst? Both those stats would mean marked improvement over his last campaign. Granted he didn't get 600 at bats, but 263 is a decent sample size especially because he has shone year in year out that he can't hit major league pitching. Also his strikeout numbers were creeping up again this year, his worst since 1999, so he doesn't appear to be showing improvement, and he's not ultra young anymore either(neither is Paul), so the improvement you can reasonably expect goes down every year. Paul only hit .240 which isn't great either, but I think with more regular playing time that number would go up, and I don't think you could say the say for MJ.
And you also cede the point that Paul is faster on the basepaths. So the better hitter and better speed would both favor Paul, and we are talking about a bench player, correct?
Now I don't think Paul is a good option(please read that over and over again), but why would MJ be a good option, especially in a backup roll? Yes he is better defensively than Paul, but Olivo is reported to be good defensively with a cannon for an arm, so is MJ going to be coming in as a late inning sub defensively? Chances are that whoever stays isn't going to get alot of playing time(thank god), so I do agree to you as there is no real reason to debate this(though you have to do something in the offseason)....I don't think we have a solid catching situation, but I fail to see how MJ is such a better option than Paul with all the facts I have given...THAT ISNT TO SAY PAUL ISNT BAD....so work with me here.....MJ shouldnt really be on a major league roster....in a better org he would be a minor league soldier who helps our younger pitchers learn the game so that they can move up from Double A to the Triple A or even the pros

maurice
10-28-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
So the better hitter and better speed would both favor Paul, and we are talking about a bench player, correct? Now I don't think Paul is a good option(please read that over and over again), but why would MJ be a good option, especially in a backup roll? Yes he is better defensively than Paul, but Olivo is reported to be good defensively with a cannon for an arm, so is MJ going to be coming in as a late inning sub defensively? Chances are that whoever stays isn't going to get alot of playing time (thank god)....

Actually, a team's backup catcher typically gets a great deal of playing time (often two or more starts a week), due to the physical strain of catching a nine-inning game. Even if Olivo plays lights-out and stays healthy, the backup could get 30+ starts over a 162-game season. If Johnson is the backup, he'll likely catch Buehrle 30+ times and start day games after night games also. If Olivo struggles, the "backup" may start most games.

I agree that Paul seems to have a slight edge offensively, but catcher is the single most important defensive position. Johnson is far better defensively. Unless the Sox acquire another catcher, Johnson should be a lock to make the team.

voodoochile
10-28-2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Actually, a team's backup catcher typically gets a great deal of playing time (often two or more starts a week), due to the physical strain of catching a nine-inning game. Even if Olivo plays lights-out and stays healthy, the backup could get 30+ starts over a 162-game season. If Johnson is the backup, he'll likely catch Buehrle 30+ times and start day games after night games also. If Olivo struggles, the "backup" may start most games.

I agree that Paul seems to have a slight edge offensively, but catcher is the single most important defensive position. Johnson is far better defensively. Unless the Sox acquire another catcher, Johnson should be a lock to make the team.

You're confusing Sox baseball with the way a real baseball team is run. Look at the number of starts for good catchers in the league. Guys like IRod, Piazza and Kendell typically start 140+ games a year. The Sox may bring Olivo along slowly and give him a bunch of rest so as not to wear him out, but if they had a real manager, he would be starting 140+ games this season, provided he continues his excellent September play.

Yeah, Catchers need more time off than other position players, but a good manager finds a way to do it and still give the backup only 15-20 starts a year.

Mark Buehrle should grow up. He should do what is best for the team and throw to whoever the manager puts behind the plate. MJ is not the reason that MB is a good young pitcher.

jortafan
10-28-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Mark Buehrle should grow up. He should do what is best for the team and throw to whoever the manager puts behind the plate. MJ is not the reason that MB is a good young pitcher.

In the words of the "immortal" Crash Davis, "If you think you're winning because you're wearing women's underwear, then you are." I'd hate to see somebody mess with the one reliable pitcher the White Sox have because of a dispute over which of two mediocrities should or should not be the reserve catcher. They both ought to be replaced, but don't mess w/ Buehrle's streak.

RichH55
10-28-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
In the words of the "immortal" Crash Davis, "If you think you're winning because you're wearing women's underwear, then you are." I'd hate to see somebody mess with the one reliable pitcher the White Sox have because of a dispute over which of two mediocrities should or should not be the reserve catcher. They both ought to be replaced, but don't mess w/ Buehrle's streak.

Hell this might be the best argument Ive heard to keep MJ....honestly Im indifferent, but reasons like this might make me favor MJ somewhat

voodoochile
10-28-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
In the words of the "immortal" Crash Davis, "If you think you're winning because you're wearing women's underwear, then you are." I'd hate to see somebody mess with the one reliable pitcher the White Sox have because of a dispute over which of two mediocrities should or should not be the reserve catcher. They both ought to be replaced, but don't mess w/ Buehrle's streak.

The fact is that a catcher who brings more to the plate offensively and as much defensively gives MB a better chance to win games. Maybe he would have gotten to 20 this year if he had a catcher who could hit for power and average catching him and possibly putting enough runs on the board to offset some of those late season 1 and 2 run losses...

Also, a fictional catchers take on the situation is worth about as much to the game as my opinion is. Turn that statement around and you get, "You will lose whenever you don't have your security blanket." Like it or not, MB has to get used to the idea of other catchers cathing him and the sooner it happens, the better, imo.

Randar68
10-28-2002, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
And you also cede the point that Paul is faster on the basepaths. So the better hitter and better speed would both favor Paul, and we are talking about a bench player, correct?


Now I don't think Paul is a good option(please read that over and over again), but why would MJ be a good option, especially in a backup roll? Yes he is better defensively than Paul, but Olivo is reported to be good defensively with a cannon for an arm, so is MJ going to be coming in as a late inning sub defensively? Chances are that whoever stays isn't going to get alot of playing time(thank god), so I do agree to you as there is no real reason to debate this(though you have to do something in the offseason)....I don't think we have a solid catching situation, but I fail to see how MJ is such a better option than Paul with all the facts I have given...THAT ISNT TO SAY PAUL ISNT BAD....so work with me here.....MJ shouldnt really be on a major league roster....in a better org he would be a minor league soldier who helps our younger pitchers learn the game so that they can move up from Double A to the Triple A or even the pros

Who's fooling who, here? Paul IS NOT A BETTER HITTER....20 or 30 points in Batting Average does not equate to a better hitter. Have you seen Josh Paul BUNT? Have you seen his situational hitting? Please. Neither is a burner who will ever be a vauluable pinch runner. If Josh Paul is pinch running, somebody shoot me! What, will they bring him in to make outs on the basepaths with his numbnuts running?

As for the backup not playing much...are you nuts? Olivo has never played more than 110 games at C in a season, and this was his first over 100, IIRC. You going to run a young catcher out there for 130 or 140 games a year? You people are nuts! If the Sox play him more than 100 games in 2003, they will be on their way to ruining another good prospect.

So, while MJ isn't great, he is a much better option than Paul, if not only for the reason that our ace only pitches to him! If you want to talk about going outside the organization for 2nd catcher, fine, I'm all for it. However, MJ vs. Paul isn't even a competition because one is smart and not very talented, and the other is dumb and not very talented.

Daver
10-28-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
However, MJ vs. Paul isn't even a competition because one is smart and not very talented, and the other is dumb and not very talented.

Maybe the Sox should make sure they re-sign Lee Evans to Charlotte so we can add another name to the terrible catcher brigade..........

Randar68
10-28-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You're confusing Sox baseball with the way a real baseball team is run. Look at the number of starts for good catchers in the league. Guys like IRod, Piazza and Kendell typically start 140+ games a year. The Sox may bring Olivo along slowly and give him a bunch of rest so as not to wear him out, but if they had a real manager, he would be starting 140+ games this season, provided he continues his excellent September play.


Sandy Alomar Jr. : Caught over 100 games only 4 times in career: 132, 127, 125, 117
Mike Piazza: Caught over 140 games 6 times in 10 seasons
IRod: Caught over 140 games 4 times in 12 season, and not more than 111 in any of the last three...
Charles Johnson: Never caught more than 135 games in a season, and 120, 124, 133,135,128,128,83.

There is significant evidence that catching a lot of games in your early years leads to short careers and lots of injuries. Mike Piazza seems to be the exception, not the rule. There have been several studies on this, all finding the same things.

If Olivo catches more than 100 games this year, I will be very disappointed. He has a lot to learn, and he shouldn't be overloaded.

Randar68
10-28-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by daver
Maybe the Sox should make sure they re-sign Lee Evans to Charlotte so we can add another name to the terrible catcher brigade..........

LOL, no kidding Daver. This is like the tallest midget competition however.

Soxheads
10-28-2002, 06:35 PM
Mark freaking Johnson.

Enough said.

Daver
10-28-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LOL, no kidding Daver. This is like the tallest midget competition however.

Maybe they will invite Ryan Sienko to ST to add a wrinkle to this three ring circus.......

voodoochile
10-28-2002, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Sandy Alomar Jr. : Caught over 100 games only 4 times in career: 132, 127, 125, 117
Mike Piazza: Caught over 140 games 6 times in 10 seasons
IRod: Caught over 140 games 4 times in 12 season, and not more than 111 in any of the last three...
Charles Johnson: Never caught more than 135 games in a season, and 120, 124, 133,135,128,128,83.

There is significant evidence that catching a lot of games in your early years leads to short careers and lots of injuries. Mike Piazza seems to be the exception, not the rule. There have been several studies on this, all finding the same things.

If Olivo catches more than 100 games this year, I will be very disappointed. He has a lot to learn, and he shouldn't be overloaded.

I stand corrected. I admit, I only took a cursory look at the statistics from this season to see what the story was. I would be curious to see how many of those shorter years were due in part to injury, but I will defer to your knowledge regarding shortening of the careers.

Frankly, I don't think it matters which one of the two is the backup catcher, but if they are going to catch a bunch of games, MJ is probably the better choice...

RichH55
10-29-2002, 12:45 PM
Whats Alomar doing these days?:) Actually he wouldn't be the worst of options...provided he signs cheap(the organizational mantra I know)...but if my caveat of signing cheap is met, he would be a better option than either MJ or Paul for the backup role. He would probably even be able to stay healthy catching 30 games or so. He could provide good tuteledge(sp.?) for Olivo and IIRC he was respected within the clubhouse and the Alomars are respected within baseball in general, especially from the standpoint of knowledge of the game. KW signed Alomar the first time and I don't think you could characterize either Paul or MJ as a KW "guy" so if Alomar doesn't have that many other options he could be a decent choice to be coming back. I would rather have a cheaply signed Alomar then to stick with Paul or MJ or even go out and get another black hole at C like John Flaherty......just my .02 cents

LauraJ14
10-29-2002, 12:51 PM
According to CNNSI website, Mark Johnson made $320,000 in 2002 ($10,000 more than Mark Buehrle) but there was no info on Josh Paul.

Randar68
10-29-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Whats Alomar doing these days?:) Actually he wouldn't be the worst of options...provided he signs cheap(the organizational mantra I know)...but if my caveat of signing cheap is met, he would be a better option than either MJ or Paul for the backup role. He would probably even be able to stay healthy catching 30 games or so. He could provide good tuteledge(sp.?) for Olivo and IIRC he was respected within the clubhouse and the Alomars are respected within baseball in general, especially from the standpoint of knowledge of the game. KW signed Alomar the first time and I don't think you could characterize either Paul or MJ as a KW "guy" so if Alomar doesn't have that many other options he could be a decent choice to be coming back. I would rather have a cheaply signed Alomar then to stick with Paul or MJ or even go out and get another black hole at C like John Flaherty......just my .02 cents

I'm not sure you wouldn't lose both MJ and Paul in waivers if you started out the season with Olivo and Alomar on the roster. Then, when Alomar gets injured, who the heck is left to call up???

Alomar is a risky proposition not because of his performance, but because he is highly injury prone and you may lose BOTH backups if he makes the roster....

hold2dibber
10-29-2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Whats Alomar doing these days?:) Actually he wouldn't be the worst of options...provided he signs cheap(the organizational mantra I know)...but if my caveat of signing cheap is met, he would be a better option than either MJ or Paul for the backup role. He would probably even be able to stay healthy catching 30 games or so. He could provide good tuteledge(sp.?) for Olivo and IIRC he was respected within the clubhouse and the Alomars are respected within baseball in general, especially from the standpoint of knowledge of the game. KW signed Alomar the first time and I don't think you could characterize either Paul or MJ as a KW "guy" so if Alomar doesn't have that many other options he could be a decent choice to be coming back. I would rather have a cheaply signed Alomar then to stick with Paul or MJ or even go out and get another black hole at C like John Flaherty......just my .02 cents

I don't think that woul be a bad option. Girardi would also be a good fit.

RichH55
10-29-2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm not sure you wouldn't lose both MJ and Paul in waivers if you started out the season with Olivo and Alomar on the roster. Then, when Alomar gets injured, who the heck is left to call up???

Alomar is a risky proposition not because of his performance, but because he is highly injury prone and you may lose BOTH backups if he makes the roster....


Well I honestly have no issue losing either or both, to sign a guy like Sandy cheap to be the backup...He's not got a great history of health, but he should be able to hold up for 30-40 games, especially spread out over the course of a season. If Sandy goes down then you have other issues assuming you have lost both Paul and MJ, but there should always be someone of that talent level out there for you so I wouldn't exactly be worried about that

Daver
10-29-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
If Sandy goes down then you have other issues assuming you have lost both Paul and MJ, but there should always be someone of that talent level out there for you so I wouldn't exactly be worried about that

The talent pool for the catching position is spread very thin league wide,one of the reasons the Sox were compelled to sign Ryan Sienko to a minor league deal last season,and teams are quick to snatch up anyone with even marginal skills at the position,so neither Paul or Johnson would clear waivers,the Sox almost have to keep one of them.

hold2dibber
10-29-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by daver
The talent pool for the catching position is spread very thin league wide,one of the reasons the Sox were compelled to sign Ryan Sienko to a minor league deal last season,and teams are quick to snatch up anyone with even marginal skills at the position,so neither Paul or Johnson would clear waivers,the Sox almost have to keep one of them.

Does "keeping one of them" mean keeping one of them on the 25 man roster? If that is the case, I wonder if they'd be more inclined to find a decent veteran from outside of the organization, keep MJ and give Olivo another year in the minors (otherwise, they're probably stuck with Olivo and MJ as backup, and if Olivo isn't ready, we're in the same boat as last year).

Or ....

the Sox sign Ivan Rodriguez to catch in '03 with Olivo in Charlotte, then in '04, after Jose's contract is up, they move I-Rod to 2B, Jimenez to SS and Olivo is promoted to play catcher. See how easy it is to be a GM?

Daver
10-29-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


the Sox sign Ivan Rodriguez to catch in '03 with Olivo in Charlotte, then in '04, after Jose's contract is up, they move I-Rod to 2B, Jimenez to SS and Olivo is promoted to play catcher. See how easy it is to be a GM?

Rodriguez has been quoted more than once that he will not accept a move to another position besides catcher,so I would assume that his next contract will have language in it to insure he play the catcher position for whomever he signs with.

Randar68
10-29-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Well I honestly have no issue losing either or both, to sign a guy like Sandy cheap to be the backup...He's not got a great history of health, but he should be able to hold up for 30-40 games, especially spread out over the course of a season. If Sandy goes down then you have other issues assuming you have lost both Paul and MJ, but there should always be someone of that talent level out there for you so I wouldn't exactly be worried about that

So, who in the hell is going to catch the other 12-130 games next season???? Are you suggesting Olivo step in and catch 130 games??? Are you freaking nuts? What happens when Alomar goes down in June and Olivo has to catch damn near EVERY game between then and September?

Do you people think these things through?

NewyorkSoxFan
10-29-2002, 09:11 PM
Who is the catcher in Seattle?
He's not a star but a veteran, he has played in the WS with Cincy for Lou, and he brought him to Seattle. He's good with the pitchers and has a decent stick. If I have to watch Olivo box balls behind the plate all summer I don't know what I'll do. Also you have Gerardi, he is excellent handling pitchers and could mentor Olivo. He could catch maybe 30 percent of the time.

NYSF

MarkEdward
10-29-2002, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Who is the catcher in Seattle?
He's not a star but a veteran, he has played in the WS with Cincy for Lou, and he brought him to Seattle. He's good with the pitchers and has a decent stick. If I have to watch Olivo box balls behind the plate all summer I don't know what I'll do. Also you have Gerardi, he is excellent handling pitchers and could mentor Olivo. He could catch maybe 30 percent of the time.

NYSF

I hate to keep bringing up the word expensive, but that's what Dan Wilson will be. He's coming off a season in which he hit .300 for the first time in his career. He'll expect a big payday. He'd be a good pick-up if he's cheap (won't be) and signs for 1-2 years.

I'd make a run at Ben Davis, but the Mariners have a lot invested in him.

RichH55
10-30-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
So, who in the hell is going to catch the other 12-130 games next season???? Are you suggesting Olivo step in and catch 130 games??? Are you freaking nuts? What happens when Alomar goes down in June and Olivo has to catch damn near EVERY game between then and September?

Do you people think these things through?


I think Olivo should catch in the neighborhood of 110-120 games, yes....I think Alomar if not playing every day can play 40 to 50 games without incident, of course any time you are carrying two catchers and one gets hurt that is going to be an issue. I never suggested signing Alomar to play the majority or even alot of games....Is one-two(tops) a week so far out of the question? I really don't think so.....I would take my chances on Sandy signed cheap and his history of knee problems over the history of being awful that both Paul and MJ have

Randar68
10-30-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I think Olivo should catch in the neighborhood of 110-120 games, yes....I think Alomar if not playing every day can play 40 to 50 games without incident, of course any time you are carrying two catchers and one gets hurt that is going to be an issue. I never suggested signing Alomar to play the majority or even alot of games....Is one-two(tops) a week so far out of the question? I really don't think so.....I would take my chances on Sandy signed cheap and his history of knee problems over the history of being awful that both Paul and MJ have

The difference I think most people here don't understand is that we're talking about CATCHER. Not Outfielder.

If you can't understand the vast difference in responsibilities and guile that are required to play catcher over just about any other position, this conversation is beyond a waste of time.

RichH55
10-30-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The difference I think most people here don't understand is that we're talking about CATCHER. Not Outfielder.

If you can't understand the vast difference in responsibilities and guile that are required to play catcher over just about any other position, this conversation is beyond a waste of time.


The tools of ignorance, yes, I'm aware.....However Sandy has proven himself at this level, no? And the Alomars are respected around baseball specificially for their knowledge of the game, no? 1-2 games a week is about what one would expect from a backup catcher, and Sandy should be able to handle that. MJ and Paul are both pretty much awful, no? The fact that most like MJ more, doesn't make this a good situation to choose from. If this wasn't directed at me then I take it back, but what exactly am I missing here?

Randar68
10-30-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
The tools of ignorance, yes, I'm aware.....However Sandy has proven himself at this level, no? And the Alomars are respected around baseball specificially for their knowledge of the game, no? 1-2 games a week is about what one would expect from a backup catcher, and Sandy should be able to handle that. MJ and Paul are both pretty much awful, no? The fact that most like MJ more, doesn't make this a good situation to choose from. If this wasn't directed at me then I take it back, but what exactly am I missing here?

You are missing the fact that you are asking a rookie who has only played a couple of games in his career above AA to come in at a young age and catch 130 games in a season. It's rediculous.

Daver
10-30-2002, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You are missing the fact that you are asking a rookie who has only played a couple of games in his career above AA to come in at a young age and catch 130 games in a season. It's rediculous. I have to agree with Randar on this one,and bringing Sandy back is more than ridicoulas,so deal with the the real options.

RichH55
10-30-2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by daver
I have to agree with Randar on this one,and bringing Sandy back is more than ridicoulas,so deal with the the real options.


Paul or MJ? Ah screw it, I'll go back to my daydreaming thinking we can sign Moyer

Iwritecode
10-31-2002, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
It's rediculous.


Originally posted by daver
ridicoulas,


C'mon guys, if we are going to misspell words here, let's at least get on the same page. This is getting ridiculous...

:) :) :)

Randar68
10-31-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
C'mon guys, if we are going to misspell words here, let's at least get on the same page. This is getting ridiculous...

:) :) :)


ARRRRGH! The grammar POLICE!!!!!! RUN!!!

voodoochile
10-31-2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
ARRRRGH! The grammar POLICE!!!!!! RUN!!!

You - in the Sox cap. Put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard. Nice and slow, nice and slow. Keep those fingers where we can see them...

guillen4life13
11-02-2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You - in the Sox cap. Put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard. Nice and slow, nice and slow. Keep those fingers where we can see them...

lmao