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Paulwny
10-16-2002, 07:06 AM
According to the AP:


The White Sox sent Thomas a letter on Oct. 6 telling him they were invoking a "diminished skills" clause in his contract, a lawyer with knowledge of the talks said Tuesday on condition of anonymity. That clause would reduce his base pay to $250,000, and defer most of his nearly $10 million salary.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/wire/sns-ap-bba-white-sox-thomas1016oct16,0,2695156.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dba seball%2Dheadlines

hold2dibber
10-16-2002, 09:01 AM
I don't understand how they can invoke the clause before silver slugger and MVP voting results are announced - I know Frank isn't going to get the votes required to prevent the Sox from invoking the DSC, but it still would seem that the clause shouldn't be subject to exercise until those conditions (no silver slugger, no top 10 MVP finish) are confirmed to have been satisfied.

DonkeyKongerko
10-16-2002, 09:20 AM
ESPN.com confirms the invocation of the clause. Uncle Jerry apparently needed to boost the bottom line to pay for new starting pitcher contracts.

We may have just witnessed our last season with #35.

Jerry_Manuel
10-16-2002, 11:47 AM
I betcha they used Fed Ex.

What class.

duke of dorwood
10-16-2002, 12:19 PM
It was probably sent collect too.

Dadawg_77
10-16-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
I betcha they used Fed Ex.

What class.

Not sure, but they are probably contractually bound to send him in writing their intentions to invoke the clause.

Also maybe the letter says if Frank doesn't get the votes needed, the Sox will invoke the clause.

Is there a Silver Slugger award for DH? If Thome gets the award for 1B, it isn't to far a stretch the Frank could win the one for DH. Sox got the second most production out of the DH spot last year, Cleveland was the only team better.

Nellie_Fox
10-16-2002, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Is there a Silver Slugger award for DH? If Thome gets the award for 1B, it isn't to far a stretch the Frank could win the one for DH. Yes, there has been a DH silver slugger awarded every year since the inception of the award in 1980. Frank got it for DH in 1991 and 2000, and as 1B in 93 and 94.

voodoochile
10-16-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Yes, there has been a DH silver slugger awarded every year since the inception of the award in 1980. Frank got it for DH in 1991 and 2000, and as 1B in 93 and 94.

Well that makes it very interesting. Frank was probably the best DH in the league this year. I would die laughing if he did win it. Sox management would look (once again) like complete idiots for sending the letter and letting it get out that they were planing on invoking the clause. Who votes on the SS award, reporters?

Come on voters, give the big man a break...

Nellie_Fox
10-16-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Who votes on the SS award, reporters? "Major League managers and coaches use the three fields of the Triple Crown - batting average, home runs and runs batted in - and a combination of total bases when voting for each years recipients."

cheeses_h_rice
10-16-2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well that makes it very interesting. Frank was probably the best DH in the league this year. I would die laughing if he did win it. Sox management would look (once again) like complete idiots for sending the letter and letting it get out that they were planing on invoking the clause. Who votes on the SS award, reporters?

Come on voters, give the big man a break...

Ellis Burks on the Jndjans batted over .300 this year playing DH full-time...there's no way Frank wins it over him.

hold2dibber
10-16-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Ellis Burks on the Jndjans batted over .300 this year playing DH full-time...there's no way Frank wins it over him.

Frank was unquestionably the 2nd best DH this year and Burks was clearly the best. Unfortunately for Frank, 2nd best doesn't do him much good.

Burks vs. Frank 2002 comparison (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section1=null&statSet1=null&statType=1&sortByStat=RBI&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2002&baseballScope=AL&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=D&box1=XXXX123245chaD&box2=XXXX111736cleD&compare.x=10&compare.y=7)

Kilroy
10-16-2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Frank was unquestionably the 2nd best DH this year and Burks was clearly the best. Unfortunately for Frank, 2nd best doesn't do him much good.


Actually, it does, doesn't it?? I thought he had to be in the top 3 for MVP or Silver Slugger.

cheeses_h_rice
10-16-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Actually, it does, doesn't it?? I thought he had to be in the top 3 for MVP or Silver Slugger.

I don't have the DSC handy, but I believe it was either to be a Silver Slugger award winner or in the top 10 in AL MVP voting, neither of which he will be (nor deserves).

Also, there were other part-time DHs with 200-400 ABs who put up better numbers than Frank, too. His .253 average or whatever just sticks out pretty badly for a designated HITTER.

Nellie_Fox
10-16-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Actually, it does, doesn't it?? I thought he had to be in the top 3 for MVP or Silver Slugger. The way I read it, he has to be top 10 MVP, named an allstar, or win a silver slugger or the Sox can invoke the clause.

CLR01
10-16-2002, 08:31 PM
Can teams talk to FA's before the playoffs are over or by invoking it now are they screwing him out of 15+ days of the 45 to test the market?

Jerry_Manuel
10-16-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
Can teams talk to FA's before the playoffs are over or by invoking it now are they screwing him out of 15+ days of the 45 to test the market?

Teams can't talk to players until two weeks after the World Series is how I understand it.

As for Frank, I heard he has to "accept" the terms of the DSC clause before the 45 day window begins.

CLR01
10-17-2002, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Teams can't talk to players until two weeks after the World Series is how I understand it.

As for Frank, I heard he has to "accept" the terms of the DSC clause before the 45 day window begins.


Yeah but doesnt he only have until the end of the week or 7 days to agree to accept the terms or test the market?

hold2dibber
10-17-2002, 08:30 AM
The Trib reports today that the Sox have voluntarily given Frank more time.

cheeses_h_rice
10-17-2002, 11:02 AM
If anyone needs the reading equivalent to ipecac, I recommend the following Moron column:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay17.html


:moron

Half-truths and white lies are my specialty!

maurice
10-17-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Frank was unquestionably the 2nd best DH this year and Burks was clearly the best. Unfortunately for Frank, 2nd best doesn't do him much good.

Burks vs. Frank 2002 comparison (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section1=null&statSet1=null&statType=1&sortByStat=RBI&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2002&baseballScope=AL&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&subScope=pos&teamPosCode=D&box1=XXXX123245chaD&box2=XXXX111736cleD&compare.x=10&compare.y=7)

Burks clearly had a better year than Thomas, but I noticed an interesting quirk in their stats. Given a similar number of ABs, how does a player with 178 SB and 62 3B over his career (Burks) have fewer SBs and 3Bs in 2002 than a player with only 32 SB and 11 3B in his career (Hurt)?

hold2dibber
10-17-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Burks clearly had a better year than Thomas, but I noticed an interesting quirk in their stats. Given a similar number of ABs, how does a player with 178 SB and 62 3B over his career (Burks) have fewer SBs and 3Bs in 2002 than a player with only 32 SB and 11 3B in his career (Hurt)?

:hurt
"I may have hurt my triceps, but my wheels are fresh!"

hold2dibber
10-17-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
If anyone needs the reading equivalent to ipecac, I recommend the following Moron column:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay17.html


:moron

Half-truths and white lies are my specialty!

The word "Moron" simply does not capture the true idiocacy of that friggin' loser. How can he look himself in the mirror? His column is inaccurate, misleading and illogical. Does he think any thing through, ever? Does he check facts, ever? Good Lord, I hate him (and in case anyone from the Sun-Times is lurking, I never buy your paper, in large part because of this sh*t head).

voodoochile
10-17-2002, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
If anyone needs the reading equivalent to ipecac, I recommend the following Moron column:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay17.html


:moron

Half-truths and white lies are my specialty!

*****!!!

That column is pure moronotti. KB has struck again. That should be framed as a perfect example of the Moron's work. OHMIGAWD!!! I am still laughing. What an idiot... Sometimes you wonder if he even believes what he types...

A couple of choice quotes...

I do not see a happy ending for Thomas on the South Side. In fact, I can see him deteriorating into the most hated major athlete in Chicago history, a man booed interminably while he grows older and fatter and waits for his jackpot. How sad if someone considered the greatest Sox player wound up being the albatross who brings down the franchise.

(Maybe Jay's rambling has something to do with that, No?)

Thing is, Thomas wouldn't be a utility player like Dunston. He easily could rediscover his stroke--remember, he did hit 28 home runs and drive in 92 runs while struggling with his average all year-- and return as an offensive force in another uniform.

Yeah, let's dump his tired old fat ass NOW!!! Why wait for the X-mas rush. Start hating on Frank today...

No, Thomas should be channeling that energy into a new start with a more serious team.

Translation: Hey Frank, GTFOOH! We don't need your stinking fat ass smacking 30 HR's a year and taking away precious media attention from my boyfriend on the northside!

:iron
"I laughed. I cried. It made me want to puke."

Lip Man 1
10-17-2002, 01:00 PM
Just wondering...

Do all of you feel Mariotti was right when he ripped Sox ownership and upper management for the team's troubles in the same column?

Do you also think he was right when he said that the increase in ticket prices would be used to cover the team's debt instead of going out and getting pitching help (especially for Mark Buehrle?)

Funny... it seems to me, that we regulars here at WSI do the same thing at least a hundred times a day. I guess that makes us "morons" too?

Lip

hold2dibber
10-17-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering...

Do all of you feel Mariotti was right when he ripped Sox ownership and upper management for the team's troubles in the same column?

Do you also think he was right when he said that the increase in ticket prices would be used to cover the team's debt instead of going out and getting pitching help (especially for Mark Buehrle?)

Funny... it seems to me, that we regulars here at WSI do the same thing at least a hundred times a day. I guess that makes us "morons" too?

Lip

No one ripped him for those points -- and I don't think anyone is suggesting (hyperbole aside) that he never gets anything right. But just because he makes a few good points does not change the fact that the article, as a whole, is extremely unfair and in many cases patently misleading.

cheeses_h_rice
10-17-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering...

Do all of you feel Mariotti was right when he ripped Sox ownership and upper management for the team's troubles in the same column?

Do you also think he was right when he said that the increase in ticket prices would be used to cover the team's debt instead of going out and getting pitching help (especially for Mark Buehrle?)

Funny... it seems to me, that we regulars here at WSI do the same thing at least a hundred times a day. I guess that makes us "morons" too?

Lip

I agree with parts of this column, about Sox management being responsible for the team's failures. No doubt about that.

But look at this quote:

The Sox had the nerve last week to raise ticket prices dramatically, but that doesn't mean they'll now be trying to buy a big-time starter to help Mark Buehrle. Chances are, the hike was approved to recover operating losses caused by sinking attendance.

Operating losses? Where does Jay get his info from? The 2002 fiscal year for the Sox doesn't end until October 31, from what I recall. Has Jerry Reinsdorf sat down and had a beer with Jay to tell him this?

As for the "half-truths" and "white lies" I mentioned, I was referring specifically to some of these nuggets. Jay is a master at propagating non-stories and near-falsehoods, so long as it brings Frank Thomas and the Sox down another notch or two.

Above all, why would he want to be with an owner who pushed the clause button and now is threatening to pay him as little as $250,000 a season, less than the newly negotiated minimum salary?

NOTE: The White Sox will likely ask that his upfront salary be lowered to around $5,000,000 a year, not $250,000. If Jay were being the least bit honest about the matter, he would have mentioned this.

The longer he sticks around amid the empty-seat gloom of Comiskey Park, the more likely he'll continue to be a clubhouse distraction

Clubhouse distraction? Where is he getting this information from? The only "distraction" stories I've read are the ones blowing out of proportion Frank's time spent in the clubhouse vs. the dugout during certain games. As EVERY Sox player has said since then, ALL players do this, but only Frank gets singled out for it. As for the David Wells "tiff," it's been proven time and again that the matter was settled between the two players immediately, and it's only remained in the ether because morons like the Moron will not allow it to die.

Someone will take a shot at Thomas, for at least three years and $15 million. Question is, what means more to him? A fresh start? Or taking Reinsdorf's money?

I like that -- "taking" Reinsdorf's money. Makes it sound like Frank is robbing poor Jerry Reinsdorf. Excuse me, but didn't both parties voluntarily enter into this contract together? And what makes the Moron so sure that Frank is going to have such an awful year in 2003, 2004, etc. that the net effect would be like stealing from the Sox? He gives Frank absolutely ZERO credit for having the will and determination to get back to his old form, as he started to show in the last weeks of the season. Why? Because the Moron wants to take credit for driving Frank out of town singlehandedly, that's why. He wants to be the Big Man. What a tool.

He shouldn't be waging war with the Sox over squatting rights.

War? What war? From all accounts I have read, it sounds like Frank's new agents and the Sox are going to come to an amicable agreement here, with Frank deferring more money than he has been, but still being paid a reasonable upfront salary.

Thomas has been part of this negative Comiskey environment for much too long.

Yeah, and I'm sure the Moron had nothing to do with propagating this lie of the "negative Comiskey environment." Keep telling yourself that, Jay.

"The main thing is, no decisions have been made on both sides,'' said Tellem, who already sounds like a peacemaker. "We're in the process of talking with the Sox. I'll probably talk to Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams and try to understand where they're coming from and help Frank sort out what's best for him.''

What's best is fleeing via the escape hatch.

You wish it were so, don't you, fatboy?

Kilroy
10-17-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering...

Do all of you feel Mariotti was right when he ripped Sox ownership and upper management for the team's troubles in the same column?

Do you also think he was right when he said that the increase in ticket prices would be used to cover the team's debt instead of going out and getting pitching help (especially for Mark Buehrle?)

Funny... it seems to me, that we regulars here at WSI do the same thing at least a hundred times a day. I guess that makes us "morons" too?

Lip

I have to echo the thought that just because the moron gets a point or two correct, doesn't mean that his agenda isn't completely and totally anti-Frank and anti-Sox.

This is a guy that even in the best of Sox times finds negative things to write about the team.

He has never said a good word about Thomas, and if you live to be 1000 years old, you'd never hear him do so.

And why is the point being run into the ground these days about signing Buehrle? He's not even arbitration eligible yet. He's not going anywhere. Its just a point to stick in his columns to rile Sox fans and help foster negativity between the team and the fans.

Iwritecode
10-17-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering...

Do all of you feel Mariotti was right when he ripped Sox ownership and upper management for the team's troubles in the same column?

Do you also think he was right when he said that the increase in ticket prices would be used to cover the team's debt instead of going out and getting pitching help (especially for Mark Buehrle?)

Funny... it seems to me, that we regulars here at WSI do the same thing at least a hundred times a day. I guess that makes us "morons" too?

Lip

I'll admit the Moron made some good points about how the team is run and what they should do, but his opinion on what Hurt should do is only one POV. I can see how Frank may look around and see how the organization is currently being run and just say to himself, "Screw the money, this team is going nowhere fast and I want a ring before I retire." But the other side is that maybe he feels that he owes it to the fans to come back and do everything he can to help turn this team around. He's spent his entire career here why not finish it. He can look at the DSC being invoked as a slap in the face or he can look at it as help to distribute the payroll to keep younger guys and sign more guys. Besides Lip, you of all people shouldn't have to wonder if JR will use the money he saves to reduce operating expenses because of this:

ML: Revenue sharing and competitive balance were the central issues in this discussion but the agreement makes no provisions that teams have to spend revenue sharing money on players. What safeguards are there that owners will try to get better?

PR: "There isnít a minimum payroll requirement because the union objected to having one, the owners tried to get one put in. That being said, it has recently come out that clubs who get revenue sharing money must file a report every year to the commissionerís office detailing where and how that money was spent. The commissioner then has the power, if he doesnít like where the money is going, to levy substantial fines on teams. The money has to be spent on things like player salaries, adding minor league teams or stadium improvement."

ML: Then how does that square with published accounts quoting Jerry Reinsdorf as saying in the owners ratification meeting, that teams should use that money towards reducing operating debt rather then going to player acquisitions or salaries?

PR: "Iíve seen that story. All I can tell you is that I was at that meeting and all reporters were outside the conference room. I know that when Iíve tried to get comments from owners afterwards in these kind of situations, they were always tight lipped. I canít vouch for the veracity of that story. Assuming that comment was made, I donít think reducing team debt would fall under the guidelines of where revenue sharing money has to go, therefore the commissioner would get involved to stop it."

Unless Phil was lying, it looks like JR is going to have to use the money to better the team. So is there any reason Thomas shouldn't try to come to a mutual agreement with management and try to help the team win? Other than the fact that the moron hates him and can't wait to drive him out of town? Yea, that's a good reason...

Soxboyrob
10-17-2002, 05:21 PM
Just to clarify...
It's always been my understanding that the Silver Slugger award is given to the player with the league's most HRs at each position on the field. There isn't any voting that goes into it. In Frank's case, Burks would get it over Frank for the DH since he had 4 more HR's....unless someone else had more. Just thought I'd chime in.

maurice
10-17-2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering...

Do all of you feel Mariotti was right when he ripped Sox ownership and upper management for the team's troubles in the same column?

Do you also think he was right when he said that the increase in ticket prices would be used to cover the team's debt instead of going out and getting pitching help (especially for Mark Buehrle?)


Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Generally, his articles are not insightful, informative, or entertaining. Specifically, his articles re. the Sox are uniformly negative and frequently factually incorrect. What's the point of publishing such drivel?

Such "journalism" -- in both the Times and the Trib -- makes me wonder whether the profession formerly known as "newspaper editor" has gone extinct.

Nellie_Fox
10-17-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Just to clarify...
It's always been my understanding that the Silver Slugger award is given to the player with the league's most HRs at each position on the field. There isn't any voting that goes into it. In Frank's case, Burks would get it over Frank for the DH since he had 4 more HR's....unless someone else had more. Just thought I'd chime in.
I based my post on this (http://baseball-almanac.com/awards/aw_ssa.shtml).

Lip Man 1
10-17-2002, 09:19 PM
Just some points:

Iwritecode:
I'm sure you also read in my interview with Phil Rogers that he said revenue sharing money can also be used to improve ballpark facilites as well as add minor league teams.

This money DOES NOT have to go towards players or salaries. besides the Sox WON'T be getting any revenue sharing money anyway. Rogers also said that in my interview.

Kilroy:

You are correct that the Sox don't have to do a thing with Buehrle yet. But past Sox history shows that be continually nickel and diming young players in order to prove who is running things, ultimately leads to those players taking a hike as fast as humanly possible out of town. Remember Buehrle has already made comments about wanting to go to St. Louis (A witness to those comments told me, Mark was not joking when he said them..) Also you recall how the Sox lowered their offer to him last year after he had the audacity to say "no" to the initial offer. My point is that some kind words and a lot of cash, would go a long way towards making sure Buehrle STAYS around the South Side.

Cheese & Rice:

The Sox have claimed operating losses of nine million dollars just from the 2001 season. That's common knowledge after Commissioner Proud To Be Your Bud, released those figures to help "prove" how bad off the owners are (laugh, laugh..) It seems to me Mariotti is operating from that. Now we can all disagree if in reality the Sox are losing that kind of money, or even any money, but the point is if the owner BELEIVES that he is, he'll react accordingly. (and Uncle Jerry certainly knows how to cut payroll doesn't he?)

As far as Frank being a distraction, if he isn't, then a lot of players (including Konerko and Valentin) sure made asses of themselves because of their published remarks. I'm not trying to get rid of Frank but I think he's been involved in enough controversies over the years to make a claim that he sure as hell bothers some of his teammates (as well as a number of fans.)

Lip

hold2dibber
10-18-2002, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just some points:

[B]As far as Frank being a distraction, if he isn't, then a lot of players (including Konerko and Valentin) sure made asses of themselves because of their published remarks. I'm not trying to get rid of Frank but I think he's been involved in enough controversies over the years to make a claim that he sure as hell bothers some of his teammates (as well as a number of fans.)

Lip

But the real question is what affect, if any, those "controversies" have upon the performance of the team on the field. My guess is little to none. Moreover, I'm guessing that a lot of other players do things that bother their teammates, but those things don't erupt into "controversies" because they're not Frank Thomas, and therefore they aren't under the microscope.

NewyorkSoxFan
10-18-2002, 12:23 PM
Hello all, and thank you for having a place like this for sox fans.

On the Frank controversy thing, let me ask all of you one question, outside of the 2 division titles, have we won anything with frank? Frank keeps telling all who will listen what a great player he is, and really his skills make him average to a little bit above average.

I don't want to push Frank out of town, but he is not a leader, he sulks way to much, and if that's not enough he hasn't had a truly "clutch" base hit since the 93 season. So what if he had a great September, we needed him to have a great May, and June when this club was struggling, and Paulie was the only guy hitting.

Like Hawk always says, don't tell me how many homers, and Ribbies you have, tell me when you get them.

NYSF

voodoochile
10-18-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Hello all, and thank you for having a place like this for sox fans.

On the Frank controversy thing, let me ask all of you one question, outside of the 2 division titles, have we won anything with frank? Frank keeps telling all who will listen what a great player he is, and really his skills make him average to a little bit above average.

I don't want to push Frank out of town, but he is not a leader, he sulks way to much, and if that's not enough he hasn't had a truly "clutch" base hit since the 93 season. So what if he had a great September, we needed him to have a great May, and June when this club was struggling, and Paulie was the only guy hitting.

Like Hawk always says, don't tell me how many homers, and Ribbies you have, tell me when you get them.

NYSF

Welcome to WSI! :) Always nice to hear from another Sox fan.

Two questions about Frank...

1)What about all of his first inning HR's and RBI's that have given the team the lead. Are those as important as late inning contributions?

2)Don't you think Frank deserves one more year to show if he can come back strong from the career threatening surgery? Doesn't he deserve that much? Hasn't he given Sox fans enough to cheer about through the years that he deserves the chance to prove himself one more time?

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
2)Don't you think Frank deserves one more year to show if he can come back strong from the career threatening surgery? Doesn't he deserve that much? Hasn't he given Sox fans enough to cheer about through the years that he deserves the chance to prove himself one more time?

Williams doesn't want him here, VD.

voodoochile
10-18-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Williams doesn't want him here, VD.

I have heard that. I heard that Williams wanted to trade him this summer and the trade got canceled by JR after some stockholders complained. Now the DSC is KW's way of forcing Frank out of town. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I trust the source...

hold2dibber
10-18-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Hello all, and thank you for having a place like this for sox fans.

On the Frank controversy thing, let me ask all of you one question, outside of the 2 division titles, have we won anything with frank? Frank keeps telling all who will listen what a great player he is, and really his skills make him average to a little bit above average.

I don't want to push Frank out of town, but he is not a leader, he sulks way to much, and if that's not enough he hasn't had a truly "clutch" base hit since the 93 season. So what if he had a great September, we needed him to have a great May, and June when this club was struggling, and Paulie was the only guy hitting.

Like Hawk always says, don't tell me how many homers, and Ribbies you have, tell me when you get them.

NYSF

(1) The Sox have "only" won 2 division titles with Frank (of course, they had won only 1 division title in the 30 years before Frank, but we'll ignore that) -- do you think they would have won more during that time if he hadn't been on the team? Do you think the Sox have a better chance of making the playoffs next year with Jeff Liefer in the starting lineup instead of Frank? The Red Sox never won a damn thing with Ted Williams on the team; maybe they should have just let him walk. The Sox haven't won more during Frank's tenure because of mismanagement, NOT because of Frank.

(2) Frank isn't a leader and he does sulk too much. Same with Barry Bonds. Same with Gary Sheffield. Magglio isn't a leader. Who cares? When Frank is on, he is one of the best handful of hitters in the game. I don't care if he doesn't have the fellas over for Monopoly and finger food after the game. Not every player is a leader.

(3) So, when Frank amassed 143 RBIs in 2002, none were "clutch"? Those 143 RBIs didn't have any effect on the Sox W/L record? Give me a break. I agree that Frank isn't at the top of my list for guys I want to see up there with the game on the line, but neither is Maggs (I'll take Jose, Crede or PK, thank you). But every RBI and every run scored count, whether they come in the 1st or the 9th.

(4) Frank struggled in the middle part of the year, but he was coming off of a huge injury. And who cares about last year. The question is, how will he perform next year? Based upon his history and based upon the last 5 weeks of the season, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that he will be a good (and maybe great) hitter next year, and certainly better than anyone in the organization that might take his place if he left.

Other than that, welcome to WSI! :smile:

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I have heard that. I heard that Williams wanted to trade him this summer and the trade got canceled by JR after some stockholders complained. Now the DSC is KW's way of forcing Frank out of town. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I trust the source...

Williams wanted to trade him and did trade him. To Boston for 3 minor leaguers.

Reinsdorf wants Thomas here, Williams does not.

My guess is that Williams will rework the deal, and try to trade him again. I'm sure Williams is talking to Reinsy every day in hopes that he'll change his mind and let him deal the Big Man.

hold2dibber
10-18-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Williams wanted to trade him and did trade him. To Boston for 3 minor leaguers.


Whuhcutalkin'bout, Willis?

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Whuhcutalkin'bout, Willis?

At the trade deadline, Williams and Boston had a deal done, that would've sent Frank to Boston. Deal was "killed" by the Chairman.

Williams wants Thomas out of here.

Dadawg_77
10-18-2002, 02:02 PM
Wow, a good move on the Chairman part. Maybe instead of Frank he'll send Kenny an three minor leaguers for nothing back.

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Wow, a good move on the Chairman part. Maybe instead of Frank he'll send Kenny an three minor leaguers for nothing back.

You never know.

All I can say is this, if Thomas is still on this team come August 2003, its' because of Reinsdorf.

Nellie_Fox
10-18-2002, 02:18 PM
Great. Another Frank basher.

Paulwny
10-18-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I have heard that. I heard that Williams wanted to trade him this summer and the trade got canceled by JR after some stockholders complained. Now the DSC is KW's way of forcing Frank out of town. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I trust the source...

I couldn't locate a previous post. It contained an article from the Boston Globe stating that the brass of the Bosox quickly rejected the idea of trading for Thomas. They didn't want to be stuck with the contract.

Iwritecode
10-18-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
You never know.

All I can say is this, if Thomas is still on this team come August 2003, its' because of Reinsdorf.

Thomas is a 5 and 10 man. He'll go where he wants to.

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I couldn't locate a previous post. It contained an article from the Boston Globe stating that the brass of the Bosox quickly rejected the idea of trading for Thomas. They didn't want to be stuck with the contract.

Well, their lying to you.

But whatever, it's water under the bridge right now.

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Thomas is a 5 and 10 man. He'll go where he wants to.

I understand that.

Williams wants him gone and will continue to attempt to move him.

How do you think the DSC story got out? Hmm...

Who would do such a thing?

Kenny Williams, thats who.

Kilroy
10-18-2002, 02:38 PM
If Williams would have traded Frank for three minor leaguers, a contigency of Sox fans would have waited for him after a game and kicked the snot out of him. Like Frank or not, no self respecting Sox fan could've approved of that deal.

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
If Williams would have traded Frank for three minor leaguers, a contigency of Sox fans would have waited for him after a game and kicked the snot out of him. Like Frank or not, no self respecting Sox fan could've approved of that deal.

Well, people didn't like the deal and complained to Reinsdorf and the deal was killed.

Williams is a control freak, and he's not happy now that he doesn't have control over this Thomas situation.

Paulwny
10-18-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
If Williams would have traded Frank for three minor leaguers, a contigency of Sox fans would have waited for him after a game and kicked the snot out of him. Like Frank or not, no self respecting Sox fan could've approved of that deal.

Agree, a trade for 3 minor leaguers would have created an upheaval worse then the white flag trade.

Kilroy
10-18-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
I understand that.

Williams wants him gone and will continue to attempt to move him.

How do you think the DSC story got out? Hmm...

Who would do such a thing?

Kenny Williams, thats who.

Where are you getting this from? The Chicago press has been all over the DSC since Thomas walked out of ST last year. They have been chompin at the bit for this the whole time.

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Where are you getting this from? The Chicago press has been all over the DSC since Thomas walked out of ST last year. They have been chompin at the bit for this the whole time.

I understand they have been all over it.

But someone had to leak it to the Trib that they did infact invoked the clause, correct? That someone was Kenny Williams.

Where did I get it from, a source close to the situation.

I'm not one to come here and post stories that are false. You guys should know that by now.

Dadawg_77
10-18-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
If Williams would have traded Frank for three minor leaguers, a contigency of Sox fans would have waited for him after a game and kicked the snot out of him. Like Frank or not, no self respecting Sox fan could've approved of that deal.


And then their lawyer(s) would of have at least one white sox fan on the jury which would of resulted in a acquittal or mistrial.

voodoochile
10-18-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Thomas is a 5 and 10 man. He'll go where he wants to.

If he rejects a trade, the Sox could invoke the clause and pay him $250K/year and defer the rest. If he takes the trade, he gets all of his money up front. In light of those things, I would bet he takes whatever trade the Sox worked out for him. Besides, Frank is a proud man. If the Sox don't want him around, I imagine he'd just go elsewhere.

Hopefully then he would have a monster year and lead whatever team he was on to the playoffs. Hopefully (again) it never comes to that...

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If the Sox don't want him around, I imagine he'd just go elsewhere.

Its' Williams who doesn't want him here.

I can't speak for the players, but I'm sure there are a few guys who wouldn't mind if he left.

voodoochile
10-18-2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Its' Williams who doesn't want him here.

I can't speak for the players, but I'm sure there are a few guys who wouldn't mind if he left.

For all intents and purposes, KW is the Sox. He runs the show until JR puts him on a leash (as you suggested) or fires his worthless ass...

Lip Man 1
10-18-2002, 06:09 PM
To:

Jerry Manuel

If you will please e-mail me with the name or title of your source, I will contact some of my acquaintances in the Chicago media and pursue this to see if we can get to the truth.

I'll keep it confidential but I have to have more information in order to go to them. If a deal was made that would be a coup for WSI since I haven't seen anything like that anywhere. I also have a source at The Sporting News who could check on this from the Boston angle.

Lip
mliptak1@ida.net

PaleHoseGeorge
10-18-2002, 07:00 PM
Let's stop dealing in innuendo. That's not what this board is for.

If you have reliable information, state it and name your source.

If you have a reasoned opinion or theory, state your case, noting this is your viewpoint.

If you can't/won't do either of these, please don't claim you could. Keep your thoughts to yourself or state it following the two guidelines above.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

~ The Management

:gulp:

Jerry_Manuel
10-18-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Let's stop dealing in innuendo. That's not what this board is for.

If you have reliable information, state it and name your source.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

~ The Management


Management, eh?

Was that the "all employees must wash hands" sign? :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
10-18-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Management, eh?

Was that the "all employees must wash hands" sign? :D:

No Shoes.

No Shirt.

NO DICE!!!

...and whenever you're about to make it, always put on side 1 of Led Zeppelin IV.

:)

Soxheads
10-18-2002, 11:42 PM
Umm, wash hands...I guess I should do that after cleaning the urinals. :smile:

WhiteSox = Life
10-19-2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Besides, Frank is a proud man. If the Sox don't want him around, I imagine he'd just go elsewhere.

Hopefully then he would have a monster year and lead whatever team he was on to the playoffs. Hopefully (again) it never comes to that...

I agree 100% that Frank is a proud man. No doubt about it, or else he wouldn't care so much about winning, losing and statistics.

But Frank is not a stupid man, either. He has been quoted that it would be a very idiotic move to go to another team and risk losing all the money that he has guaranteed already.

Let's just hope he's on the Chicago White Sox and helps lead them to the playoffs.

And, I don't think Thomas would truly want to play for anybody else. He's always loved being a White Sox, at least according to what he's said, and I believe that he is proud to be a member of the Chicago White Sox.

Frank Thomas has been a White Sox his entire career and I think he definitely has a certain respect and pride toward being a White Sox. Not so much as a member of the current White Sox regime, but being a part of Chicago White Sox history.

And I hope, from the bottom of my heart, that by the time his career is over, Frank Thomas had been a White Sox his entire career, and been a huge part of White Sox history; not only statistically, but by being an integral part of a team that had done something that White Sox fans hadn't seen since 1917.

Dadawg_77
10-19-2002, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If he rejects a trade, the Sox could invoke the clause and pay him $250K/year and defer the rest. If he takes the trade, he gets all of his money up front. In light of those things, I would bet he takes whatever trade the Sox worked out for him. Besides, Frank is a proud man. If the Sox don't want him around, I imagine he'd just go elsewhere.

Hopefully then he would have a monster year and lead whatever team he was on to the playoffs. Hopefully (again) it never comes to that...

I think we are past this point. The Sox have already invoke the clause, and in doing so they had to state the amount of money they were deferring. Thus, I would think they are stuck at that amount.

voodoochile
10-19-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
I agree 100% that Frank is a proud man. No doubt about it, or else he wouldn't care so much about winning, losing and statistics.

But Frank is not a stupid man, either. He has been quoted that it would be a very idiotic move to go to another team and risk losing all the money that he has guaranteed already.

Let's just hope he's on the Chicago White Sox and helps lead them to the playoffs.

And, I don't think Thomas would truly want to play for anybody else. He's always loved being a White Sox, at least according to what he's said, and I believe that he is proud to be a member of the Chicago White Sox.

I agree that Frank would prefer to end his career in a Sox uniform. However, if the team tries to trade him, he would accept the trade and not invoke his 5/10 eligibility to negate it, imo, because the money would then be guaranteed. That was I was getting at.

Frank won't walk away from guaranteed money, but that doesn't mean another team won't offer him 6 years at $7 million per or something similar with the last few years deferable at the teams discretion should Frank decide to retire or they decide he doesn't fit with their plans. That would be more money up front and less time on the tail end for defered payments. Frank would have a hard time turning that down. Though he may feel obligated to the Sox to offer them a shot to match whatever offer he receives. That is all speculation, but you can easily see some team taking a flyer on Frank for that kind of money given his past performances and the potential for Frank to put up offensive numbers worthy of an MVP...

WhiteSox = Life
10-19-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I agree that Frank would prefer to end his career in a Sox uniform. However, if the team tries to trade him, he would accept the trade and not invoke his 5/10 eligibility to negate it, imo, because the money would then be guaranteed. That was I was getting at.

Frank won't walk away from guaranteed money, but that doesn't mean another team won't offer him 6 years at $7 million per or something similar with the last few years deferable at the teams discretion should Frank decide to retire or they decide he doesn't fit with their plans.

That is all speculation...

I see what you mean, but I still think that Frank would prefer to stay with the White Sox for the $40 million or whatever that he is guaranteed.

If he goes to another team where he signs a 6 year deal at $7 million per year with the team's option to pick him up again or not, true, he gets the money right away. But if he plays for 3 years then the team decides they don't need him in the direction they're going, he gets the $21 million for the three years service, then what? By then, he's probably too old for anyone to take chance on him (even if he was hitting well) and continue to pay him similar amounts to what he was earning.

If he stays with the White Sox, he is still guaranteed $40 million, which of course isn't paid out at large increments in a short period, but still is to be paid nonetheless.

Unless I'm overlooking something and I missed a crucial point, I think Frank will stick to his guns and take the guaranteed money. Sure, it may or may not be the best move in the long run, but what it all comes down to is money, pride and loyalty, all of which will play key roles in the final decision.

Of course, that is all speculation... :smile:

hold2dibber
10-21-2002, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Frank won't walk away from guaranteed money, but that doesn't mean another team won't offer him 6 years at $7 million per or something similar with the last few years deferable at the teams discretion should Frank decide to retire or they decide he doesn't fit with their plans. That would be more money up front and less time on the tail end for defered payments. Frank would have a hard time turning that down. Though he may feel obligated to the Sox to offer them a shot to match whatever offer he receives. That is all speculation, but you can easily see some team taking a flyer on Frank for that kind of money given his past performances and the potential for Frank to put up offensive numbers worthy of an MVP...

Frank will be 35 next year. There is, IMHO, no chance any team would give him a 6 yr/$7 million per year deal. My guess is, the best he'd be able to get as a FA would be a 3 year deal at an average of $6 million per year. There would be incentives that would push the $ amount higher, but I just can't see any team out there giving him more than that.

NewyorkSoxFan
10-21-2002, 01:55 PM
(2) Frank isn't a leader and he does sulk too much. Same with Barry Bonds. Same with Gary Sheffield. Magglio isn't a leader. Who cares? When Frank is on, he is one of the best handful of hitters in the game. I don't care if he doesn't have the fellas over for Monopoly and finger food after the game. Not every player is a leader.


In response to dibber, when he hits over 50 hrs and bats .300 he can sulk, when you are batting 250, and hitting your home runs in sept, when you are 16 games out you don't have the right to sulk. No maggs isn't a leader either, but he is a good defensive player, and a great hitter. Their is something to be said for chemistry, that 2000 team you mentioned had it, and thats why they won.

One thing is interesting is that frank is happy when he is doing well, the min his stats start to slip, he starts pouting. You don't have to be a leader, but be a good team mate.

NYSF

hold2dibber
10-21-2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
(2) Frank isn't a leader and he does sulk too much. Same with Barry Bonds. Same with Gary Sheffield. Magglio isn't a leader. Who cares? When Frank is on, he is one of the best handful of hitters in the game. I don't care if he doesn't have the fellas over for Monopoly and finger food after the game. Not every player is a leader.


In response to dibber, when he hits over 50 hrs and bats .300 he can sulk, when you are batting 250, and hitting your home runs in sept, when you are 16 games out you don't have the right to sulk. No maggs isn't a leader either, but he is a good defensive player, and a great hitter. Their is something to be said for chemistry, that 2000 team you mentioned had it, and thats why they won.

One thing is interesting is that frank is happy when he is doing well, the min his stats start to slip, he starts pouting. You don't have to be a leader, but be a good team mate.

NYSF

I don't exactly disagree; my point is, if he hits, I don't care if he's a leader or even a good teammate. Rickey Henderson, from all accounts, is a horse crap teammate, but his teams always win. And the Sox won with Frank in 2000 and in 1993 and in 1994, even if he was (as you claim) a bad teammate (of course, neither you nor I have ever been his teammate, so we don't really know if that's true anyway). The "he's not a good teammate" argument just doesn't hold water IMHO; if he hits, Frank is good to have on the team. If he doesn't hit, he's not good to have on the team.