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thegetupguy
10-10-2002, 11:53 PM
This is my very first post on this site and it's an important one! I'm not sure if everyone realizes the probability that Frank will not be in a Sox uniform next year.

I have already let everyone in the front office know my feelings and it's time that they heard yours.

Call, write or send an e-mail and let them know how you feel before it's too late!

If you're a season ticket holder, let them know you won't renew. Even if you aren't, let them know you won't support a team without Frank!

Frank has given Chicago tons of great years...he has acomplished things only Ruth and Gerrig have. I know he has given me memories I will cherish the rest of my life.

Please let the Sox know how you feel.

THANK YOU

Dan

RKMeibalane
10-11-2002, 12:03 AM
I agree with everything you said. I will participate in the "Keep Frank" campaign. Welcome to WSI!

OfficerKarkovice
10-11-2002, 12:24 AM
I already have...and plan to write a few more letters and emails as well.

DVG
10-11-2002, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by thegetupguy
This is my very first post on this site and it's an important one! I'm not sure if everyone realizes the probability that Frank will not be in a Sox uniform next year.

I have already let everyone in the front office know my feelings and it's time that they heard yours.

Call, write or send an e-mail and let them know how you feel before it's too late!

If you're a season ticket holder, let them know you won't renew. Even if you aren't, let them know you won't support a team without Frank!

Frank has given Chicago tons of great years...he has acomplished things only Ruth and Gerrig have. I know he has given me memories I will cherish the rest of my life.

Please let the Sox know how you feel.


THANK YOU

Dan

:moron

This is WAR, cretin!!!!!! I'm on the verge of running the useless
Antichrist out of town and will NOT be denied!!!! It is my decision
that he is a horrible, evil person who is not worthy to have his
skills or to share the city with God's wondrous, glorious, loving,
caring, giving, generous, kiss-blowing, heart-tapping, flag-
waving, patriotic, beauteous gift to humanity, MY SAMMY!!!!!!!!
When I am through, ALL Sox fans who want to keep Thomas
will be seen as wanted criminals!!!! You are warned, cretin!!!!!!!

Cheryl
10-11-2002, 11:32 AM
Hi Dan! Welcome to WSI!

I've already let the front office know what I think.

steff
10-11-2002, 11:52 AM
I just got done talking to my rep (Brad) this morning. Season ticket inquiries are at an all time high because of the AS game this year. They don't care how many letters people write. There's a line to replace any lost ticket revenue a few thousand deep right now.
Regardless.. Frank will be back.

Dadawg_77
10-11-2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
I just got done talking to my rep (Brad) this morning. Season ticket inquiries are at an all time high because of the AS game this year. They don't care how many letters people write. There's a line to replace any lost ticket revenue a few thousand deep right now.
Regardless.. Frank will be back.

Question, would your guy lie to increase the perceived scarcity of the tickets, thus people renew tickets without questioning the bumbling idiots upstairs? The All Star game should drive up demand for season tickets, but I wouldn't put it pass the Sox beef up those numbers in order to scare people into renewing. In this economic climate how people/companines will be willing to pony up a couple thousand dollars for the right to purchase All Star Tickets at $125-$300 a pop?

duke of dorwood
10-11-2002, 12:30 PM
That's something I have been wrestling with myself. If its true, they are selling a lot of season tix, this could backfire for us. They could keep Frank and consider it an "acquisition". AND not do anything else.

pudge
10-11-2002, 02:42 PM
I *used* to be in the Thomas camp, but I have long since departed, and I can't believe how many Sox fans still are. A guy who hasn't been able to hit the inside pitch for years and is basically a mediocre DH... why do so many people want to keep him? Let's just plat extreme hypothetical... If I were to give you the option of having Frank next year or using his money to sign a Maddux or Glavine, what would you take? Now, I know most of you will say, "We'll never sign Maddux or Glavine," and that is totally true. But my point being, Frank's money could be spent much better elsewhere for this team. Why is everyone on this site so adament about calling the front office and demanding Frank be back?

steff
10-11-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Question, would your guy lie to increase the perceived scarcity of the tickets, thus people renew tickets without questioning the bumbling idiots upstairs? The All Star game should drive up demand for season tickets, but I wouldn't put it pass the Sox beef up those numbers in order to scare people into renewing. In this economic climate how people/companines will be willing to pony up a couple thousand dollars for the right to purchase All Star Tickets at $125-$300 a pop?

Doubt it. And since we want different seats, and they have been taken or are not avaliable because of the demand, I believe him even more. And as an FYI.. ticket prices are going up next year. Club level will be near $40 a seat!

hold2dibber
10-11-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I *used* to be in the Thomas camp, but I have long since departed, and I can't believe how many Sox fans still are. A guy who hasn't been able to hit the inside pitch for years and is basically a mediocre DH... why do so many people want to keep him? Let's just plat extreme hypothetical... If I were to give you the option of having Frank next year or using his money to sign a Maddux or Glavine, what would you take? Now, I know most of you will say, "We'll never sign Maddux or Glavine," and that is totally true. But my point being, Frank's money could be spent much better elsewhere for this team. Why is everyone on this site so adament about calling the front office and demanding Frank be back?

(1) We don't have anyone else to take his place (sorry - Borchard isn't ready yet so the Borchard to left, CLee to DH move is at least one year away - plus, we'll need Borchard in CF anyway, IMHO, so Carlos will be staying put in left);

(2) Frank put up respectable numbers last year, despite the fact that he didn't get into a groove until September;

(3) He will have a full post-injury season under his belt and in light of his resurgence at the end of the year, there is reason to believe he may return to 2000 form (or close to it);

(4) They're only paying him $6 mm/year now (the rest is deferred) so it's not like his salary is single handedly preventing the Sox from spending on other players;

(5) It would be beyond painful to see Frank putting up big numbers (and reaching career milestones) with some other team; and

(6) He is the best hitter in franchise history and should retire a White Sox.

I also disagree with your assesment that he "hasn't been able to hit the inside pitch in years." Frank's exagerrated reaction to inside pitches is very annoying. But the fact is, in 2000 (his last season before this one), Frank put up ridiculous numbers (and should have won the MVP). Are you saying he couldn't hit the inside pitch in 2000?

In summary, there are many reasons to believe that Frank can put up MVP caliber numbers again next year and at $6 mm, he'd be a bargain if he did so. In fact, even if he just improves upon this year's numbers just a little (hit .275 and cut down on the Ks), he'd be a bargain at $6 mm.

I am amazed at the number of Sox fans who have turned against Frank (including those who booed him every time he made an out this past year). He deserves better.

hold2dibber
10-11-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Doubt it. And since we want different seats, and they have been taken or are not avaliable because of the demand, I believe him even more. And as an FYI.. ticket prices are going up next year. Club level will be near $40 a seat!

Holy crap! I love those club level seats (particularly for April and September games in the cold) and was considering buying the weekend/holiday 27 game package in the club level next year, but at $40 a pop, I think not.

jortafan
10-11-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Why is everyone on this site so adament about calling the front office and demanding Frank be back?


because we realize any "savings" accomplished by letting the Franchise player go will merely go to the bottom line, and not toward the purchase of any talent on the field.

Cheryl
10-11-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
And as an FYI.. ticket prices are going up next year. Club level will be near $40 a seat!

That might just do it for me. They had a miserable season this year on the field and in the stands. So they raise tickets prices. Fine. I have other things to do with my time.

Foulke You
10-11-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
(1) We don't have anyone else to take his place (sorry - Borchard isn't ready yet so the Borchard to left, CLee to DH move is at least one year away - plus, we'll need Borchard in CF anyway, IMHO, so Carlos will be staying put in left);

(2) Frank put up respectable numbers last year, despite the fact that he didn't get into a groove until September;

(3) He will have a full post-injury season under his belt and in light of his resurgence at the end of the year, there is reason to believe he may return to 2000 form (or close to it);

(4) They're only paying him $6 mm/year now (the rest is deferred) so it's not like his salary is single handedly preventing the Sox from spending on other players;

(5) It would be beyond painful to see Frank putting up big numbers (and reaching career milestones) with some other team; and

(6) He is the best hitter in franchise history and should retire a White Sox.

I also disagree with your assesment that he "hasn't been able to hit the inside pitch in years." Frank's exagerrated reaction to inside pitches is very annoying. But the fact is, in 2000 (his last season before this one), Frank put up ridiculous numbers (and should have won the MVP). Are you saying he couldn't hit the inside pitch in 2000?

In summary, there are many reasons to believe that Frank can put up MVP caliber numbers again next year and at $6 mm, he'd be a bargain if he did so. In fact, even if he just improves upon this year's numbers just a little (hit .275 and cut down on the Ks), he'd be a bargain at $6 mm.

I am amazed at the number of Sox fans who have turned against Frank (including those who booed him every time he made an out this past year). He deserves better.

Couldn't have said it better Dibber. People are waaaay too hard on Frank. He gets more grief (albeit SOME of it brought on by the things he says) from the media and fans in this town then any other Sox player or Chicago player I've ever seen.

Dadawg_77
10-11-2002, 04:27 PM
Maybe I am dreaming here, but with the Sox having a big increase in season tickets because of a one time occurance. Could JR realizing that this extra income could use to improve the on field product would minimize 2004 season ticket holder drop off? How many of these new season ticket holders are just getting them for the All Star game, and won't renew. Those ticket holders great for one year but do nothing for the long term. If the Sox improve the club and make the playoffs, then more of the people who are expecting to just be one and done, would stay around and thus 2004 revenue is greatly increased. This approach lessens profit this year, but should increase it for 04 and beyond.

I am not sure if the Sox realize this but it doesn't matter what they do to the park, people will still hate it and miss the old one. The only way to increase the amount butts in the seats is consistent winning. That park will filled in 93 and 94 because the on field product was pretty good.

hold2dibber
10-11-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
That might just do it for me. They had a miserable season this year on the field and in the stands. So they raise tickets prices. Fine. I have other things to do with my time.

Let's not be rash here, Cheryl. First, the post in question only referred to club level increases; if the other ticket prices don't increase or increase only a little bit, that's a different story. Plus, the Sox' ticket prices are, as I understand it, relatively low compared with other teams already. Finally, in light of the fact that ticket prices may be going up, in light of the fact that the season ticket base may increase (due to the All Star game), in light of the fact that the Sox have already trimmed about $16 million from last year's opening day payroll, and in light of the fact that the new CBA will provide the Sox with more revenue sharing $ (I think), the Sox should have a considerable amount of $ to spend this offseason on acquisitions. If they do so, I will have no problem at all coughing up some extra $ for tickets next year. If they do not, despite all of the above reasons that suggest that they'll have more $ this year, I will be outrage and sickened. Unfortunately for me, not even that could keep me away from the park, but it would further erode the already shrinking fan base.

Cheryl
10-11-2002, 06:11 PM
I'm not being rash. They're going to field essentially the same team next year as they did this last season, and expect us to pay more to see it. I stopped going to games in May this past season. I don't think paying more is going to make me want to go back to the park.

hold2dibber
10-11-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
I'm not being rash. They're going to field essentially the same team next year as they did this last season, and expect us to pay more to see it. I stopped going to games in May this past season. I don't think paying more is going to make me want to go back to the park.

(1) If they field the same team as last year and the play great ball like they did at the end of last year, would your response be the same?

(2) I'll be pretty pissed, too, if they don't make some acquisitions. As detailed in my prior post, they should have the money to do so.

thegetupguy
10-11-2002, 08:35 PM
lower deck box=29.00
lower deck reserved=24.00
bleechers=22.00
upper deck box=20.00
upper deck reserved=14.00

The e-mail said nothing about the club level.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-11-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by thegetupguy
lower deck box=29.00
lower deck reserved=24.00
bleechers=22.00
upper deck box=20.00
upper deck reserved=14.00

The e-mail said nothing about the club level.

Bleacher seats are now $2 more than upper deck box. Unbelievable!

That upper deck is killing the franchise. Nobody wants to sit up there and the Sox are compensating by jacking the price of all the other seats in the stadium.

I guess it's time to roll out the WSI ticket price tracker. It's some damning evidence about the incompetence of the Sox' design for the new ballpark.

jortafan
10-11-2002, 09:34 PM
correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't club level seats the same as lower deck boxes (meaning $29)? It sounds much better than $40.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-11-2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't club level seats the same as lower deck boxes (meaning $29)? It sounds much better than $40.

They were under the old pricing scheme. However, Club seats used to cost more than lower deck box when New Comiskey first opened.

I'm betting the Sox jacked the price of Club seats because of the added demand caused after adding all the new amenities on that level last season (carpeting, air conditioning, better concessions, etc.).

WinningUgly!
10-11-2002, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by thegetupguy
This is my very first post on this site and it's an important one! I'm not sure if everyone realizes the probability that Frank will not be in a Sox uniform next year.


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/hurt-inator.JPG

sox_fan_forever
10-11-2002, 11:11 PM
That's a great graphic!

voodoochile
10-11-2002, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by sox_fan_forever
That's a great graphic!

Did he use Gary Coleman's head?

UD box sucks anyway. Rather sit in the reserved seats. Probably do another 7 game package unless Frank ends up playing elsewhere - in that case, I will personally start the "sell, Jerry, sell" t-shirt business and regularly picket the park...

At least that's the current plan...

Lip Man 1
10-12-2002, 02:57 AM
Just a thought...

Could Jerry Reinsdorf have raised ticket prices because in the new labor agreement the minimum salary was raised to 300,000
bucks?

According to Phil Rogers, the new rule is going to cost the Sox about one million more in salaries just off the top because they rely so much on young, inexperienced (read: cheap) players.

If this isn't the case, then I'm sure Uncle Jerry will use all this additional revenue to go out and get two quality starting pitchers
(cough, snicker,grunt, trying to keep a straight face...)

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
10-12-2002, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just a thought...

Could Jerry Reinsdorf have raised ticket prices because in the new labor agreement the minimum salary was raised to 300,000
bucks?

According to Phil Rogers, the new rule is going to cost the Sox about one million more in salaries just off the top because they rely so much on young, inexperienced (read: cheap) players.

If this isn't the case, then I'm sure Uncle Jerry will use all this additional revenue to go out and get two quality starting pitchers
(cough, snicker,grunt, trying to keep a straight face...)

Lip

Why did JR raise ticket prices? My guess would be he figures he can get away with it. As any economist will tell you, the price a business charges has NO relation to the cost of the product or service. It's simply a function of supply and demand.

JR hasn't raised prices since 2001 and he has the added come on of hosting the 2003 all-star game. Demand is up, so the prices are rising, too.

Now a smart businessman would say, "Gee, I could create added demand by signing a pair of big free agents (like a top pitcher and centerfield/lead-off man, for example). I could create a new marketing campaign called '2003 White Sox--serious baseball!'. I could jack the prices $2 to $4 each season for the next five seasons and still claim my prices are lower than the league leaders'. I'll own this town! I WILL MAKE A FORTUNE DOING IT, TOO!"

That's what a smart businessman would do. But this is JR we're talking about. He's making a fortune without lifting a finger. Jacking prices for the all-star game season is a good example.

That makes JR a shrewd businessman. It also makes him a horse**** sportsman. He needs to go.

:reinsy
"Marketing? What's marketing? If my team loses games and fans, it's simply my customers' fault. Sheesh... what a maroon that PHG is."

MarkEdward
10-12-2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Why did JR raise ticket prices? My guess would be he figures he can get away with it. As any economist will tell you, the price a business charges has NO relation to the cost of the product or service. It's simply a function of supply and demand.

But there's little demand for club seats right now! The club section is never filled (sans the Cubs-Sox series), even on Half-Price Mondays and Tuesdays.

Looking on the bright side, maybe this means JR is preparing to sign a big-name free agent?

PaleHoseGeorge
10-12-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
But there's little demand for club seats right now! The club section is never filled (sans the Cubs-Sox series), even on Half-Price Mondays and Tuesdays.

Looking on the bright side, maybe this means JR is preparing to sign a big-name free agent?

I'm not aware of any section of seats selling out except for the Cubs-Sox series. There is no news here.

I'm sure the Sox have at least one surprise for us Sox Fans before the beginning of next season, not unlike signing Kenny Lofton the first day of SoxFest. Just like P.T. Barnum, they figure another one is born every minute.

The real trick is putting this team over the top for a championship. Building from 81 wins, we've got a long, long way to go. There is no quick fix for this.

guillen4life13
10-14-2002, 10:17 PM
in all honesty, i think our positional/batting lineup is pretty good (enough to get to the playoffs, but not succeed in them). the thing that i think will pleasantly surprise us (provided they make the playoffs) is olivo. He seems to be a clutch type guy. in the playoffs he might work some magic.

2B Jiminez .280
SS Valentin .265
DH Thomas .310 (if he's semi up to form)
RF Ordonez .325
1B Konerko .300
LF Lee .280
3B Crede .290
CF Rowand .270
C Olivo .255

now, provided everythign goes well, that sounds/looks pretty realistic.

now, the part that worries all of us is the starting pitching.... that SUX.

honestly tho our pen ain't that bad.

Foulke should be a closer again but i'm sure Marte will take the job.

MR Foulke
MR Marte
MR Osuna
MR Wunsch (we need another GOOD lefty)
MR Almonte?
MR Biddle
MR Wright (Interchangeable with Rauch)

Rotation:
LHP Buehrle 22-9 2.90
?HP PITCHER X <3.90
RHP Garland 15-11 4.30
RHP Ritchie 13-10 4.60
RHP Rauch 14-12 4.30


if we can actually get pitcher x, we'll be set.

god, the optimist comes out again, only to be shut away when none of his ideas pan out.

Soxheads
10-14-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
in all honesty, i think our positional/batting lineup is pretty good (enough to get to the playoffs, but not succeed in them). the thing that i think will pleasantly surprise us (provided they make the playoffs) is olivo. He seems to be a clutch type guy. in the playoffs he might work some magic.

2B Jiminez .280
SS Valentin .265
DH Thomas .310 (if he's semi up to form)
RF Ordonez .325
1B Konerko .300
LF Lee .280
3B Crede .290
CF Rowand .270
C Olivo .255

now, provided everythign goes well, that sounds/looks pretty realistic.

now, the part that worries all of us is the starting pitching.... that SUX.

honestly tho our pen ain't that bad.

Foulke should be a closer again but i'm sure Marte will take the job.

MR Foulke
MR Marte
MR Osuna
MR Wunsch (we need another GOOD lefty)
MR Almonte?
MR Biddle
MR Wright (Interchangeable with Rauch)

Rotation:
LHP Buehrle 22-9 2.90
?HP PITCHER X <3.90
RHP Garland 15-11 4.30
RHP Ritchie 13-10 4.60
RHP Rauch 14-12 4.30


if we can actually get pitcher x, we'll be set.

god, the optimist comes out again, only to be shut away when none of his ideas pan out.

I think we'll have 3 guys batting over .300, and three guys with 10+ winds. But I'm quite pessimistic today.

maurice
10-15-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
2B Jiminez .280
SS Valentin .265
DH Thomas .310 (if he's semi up to form)
RF Ordonez .325
1B Konerko .300
LF Lee .280
3B Crede .290
CF Rowand .270
C Olivo .255

MR Foulke
MR Marte
MR Osuna
MR Wunsch (we need another GOOD lefty)
MR Almonte?
MR Biddle
MR Wright (Interchangeable with Rauch)

Rotation:
LHP Buehrle 22-9 2.90
?HP PITCHER X <3.90
RHP Garland 15-11 4.30
RHP Ritchie 13-10 4.60
RHP Rauch 14-12 4.30


That would be a pretty good team, but I'm skeptical that KWill is capable of getting "PITCHER X" with a "<3.90." One or more of our current starters will need to step up to that level (Garland?). I agree that Foulke should be the closer if he's still on the team, given his track record as one of the top relievers in the AL.

Here's my relatively conservative estimate (pretty close to yours):

Lineup:
2B Jiminez .275, 10 HR
LF Lee .285, 30 HR
DH Thomas .310, 35 HR
RF Ordonez .310, 35 HR
1B Konerko .295, 25 HR
3B Crede .280, 25 HR
SS Valentin .250, 25 HR
CF Rowand .270, 15 HR
C Olivo .250, 10 HR

Pen:
RHP Foulke (closer) 2.50 ERA, 35 Saves
LHP Marte (lefty set-up) 3.50
RHP Osuna (righty set-up) 3.50
LHP Wunsch (lefty specialist) 3.50
RHP Almonte / Ginter (mop up) 4.20
RHP Biddle / Rauch (long relief / spot starter) 4.20

Rotation:
LHP Buehrle 3.50 ERA, 20 Wins
RHP Garland 4.20
RHP Biddle / Rauch 4.20
RHP Wright 4.50
RHP Ritchie 4.50

A few notes:
1. So my guess re. Frank isn't exactly conservative, but it's certainly well within the realm of possibility.
2. Batting Lee second would take advantage of his suddenly impressive walk totals and give him better pitches to hit (assuming note #1 is true), though you'd be hurt by his poor baserunning.
3. Moving Valentin down breaks up what otherwise would be a string of seven consecutive right-handed batters. While he may be our best base runner, Valentin doesn't steal many bases. His .249 AVE / .311 OBP / 99 SO in 2002 was typical, and not exactly what you look for in a #2 hitter.
4. The offense should keep the mediocre starting pitchers in most games. That could win you 90 games, but it's not going to win you any championships.

AMestan
10-15-2002, 09:06 PM
Sorry Dan,

Frank gave us some great years, thats past tense. Over the past two years NO ONE has CRIED more than Frank. Frank won't duplicate what he's done before. Frank is for Frank. When Jose and Konerko say he's selfish I believe them. Graffanino told the press he doesn't play hard and he has no reason to lie. Now that Royce is gone let Frank get another deal. With the two selfish crybabies gone we can only hope that Jerry and Kenny follow. With our luck Frank will stay and maybe hit 305, 34 HR's and 110 RBI's, great numbers, but he usually delivers when were up by 6 runs or losing by 15. If you don't believe me look it up. Jose produces more with men on base then the crybaby and makes a lot less.

I liked Frank until he became to big for his teamates. But you have to admit he had a good thing going, batting 3rd all year with a 230 to 250 average. Let some other team pick up his annuity and his attitiude. As a season ticket holder I'll write a thank you note for his departure.

RKMeibalane
10-15-2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by AMestan

How many times must we repeat this before it is understood? Frank Thomas suffered a serious injury during the 2001 season, and it took most of this season for him to regain his timing and patience at the plate. He is only two seasons removed from arguably the finest year of his career. He's not done, not even close.

If he leaves and posts excellent numbers in another uniform, I will have a bad taste in my mouth for several years to come. Even if he continues to post subpar numbers, what he gave the Sox this past season is much better than anything Jeff Liefer would have produced. I can believe a lot of things about other Sox fans, but I cannot accept that some people would rather have Liefer starting than Frank. That's ridiculous.

nixsox
10-16-2002, 12:00 AM
Can someone give me the official Sox e-mail so I can tell them I won't be back if they don't re sign Frank also? :angry:

Procol Harum
10-16-2002, 12:27 AM
I think this may just be a Sox attempt to trim their budget and keep Frank, too. What can they lose (besides fan support and goodwill--but the Sox apparently don't care about that anyway)?

If Frank can't find anybody in the next 45 days who wants to pay him an astronomical sum of money (and that's not too much of a stretch to imagine happening), then the Sox have him; heck, they can even cut him a deal for more money than his diminshed skills clause contract calls for and look comparatively magnanimous and still save a significant buck.

And even if this little gambit doesn't work, and Frank does find someone to pay him, the Sox payroll will be even lower--and the profit margin on those raised ticket prices will look all the sweeter for JR and his cronies.

steff
10-16-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by nixsox
Can someone give me the official Sox e-mail so I can tell them I won't be back if they don't re sign Frank also? :angry:


They don't have to "re-sign" him. He's already signed. And his $$ is GUARANTEED. Just defered a bit. He isn't going anywhere.
Although.. I said that about Ray, too :D:

harwar
10-16-2002, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by thegetupguy
Call, write or send an e-mail and let them know how you feel before it's too late!
If you're a season ticket holder, let them know you won't renew. Even if you aren't, let them know you won't support a team without Frank!
Frank has given Chicago tons of great years...he has acomplished things only Ruth and Gerrig have. I know he has given me memories I will cherish the rest of my life.

With me your preaching to the choir.Frank Thomas and Ray Durham have been and will continue to be my favotire White Sox players.They aren't the most likeable guys but too me they ARE the White Sox and i miss Ray Durham everyday.If Frank goes too i will be crushed.I just don't think anything we say or do will much matter as Reisdorf and his bag of cronies are going to let Frank go and pocket the money without adding anything more than just a token pitcher or player or two.

Jerry_Manuel
10-16-2002, 11:43 AM
Adios, Frank.

If he's here, great. If he's not here, that's great to.

Lanny Sigo
10-16-2002, 08:32 PM
I feel your passion, but personally I struggle with the idea of keeping Frank. How detrimental has he become in the clubhouse? Have they become just as tired of his selfish act. They have to deal with it day in day out.
Most Sox fans want him to succeed not only for himself, but our favorite team. He just isn't a warm and fuzzy type player who endears himself to us. He has brought on this indifference himself because he projects an indifferent personality. The verdict is still out from my standpoint!

nut_stock
10-16-2002, 11:57 PM
We won the divison in 2000 with Frank. Has he really become that much of a distraction in 2 years? while I don't want to discount team chemistry, one Frank Thomas in a clubhouse doesn't see so detrimental to me compared to other great teams having players with big egos. He's not Jamie Navarro people. (remember when Jamie was blaming his teamates for his struggles)

and one more thing, it has been said that he doesn't hit in the cluch. Well, I somewhat agree with that, but I'll gladly take all of those 1st inning homeruns that give our pitchers an early lead.

SouthSideHitman
10-17-2002, 06:42 PM
Hi all, my first post!!!

First of all, Frank is poised to bounce back to near 2000 levels, just look at his last 30 games.
Second, his contract is affordable- for right now, but if the Sox don't win next year and get some major revenues, it will be tough to keep him and the young talent especially Bueherle.
Third, his clubhouse persona is only a problem when the team isn't winning, if it is then you won't hear a peep. Just compare April and July.
Finally, he is a franchise player who barring a Dale Murphey-like collapse, will end up in Cooperstown. It would break my heart to see him go in like Fisk.

idseer
10-18-2002, 11:38 AM
i doubt frank is going anywhere ... and i hope he has a great season next year ........... HOWEVER ......

most of you are speaking from your hearts and your expectations are pretty unrealistic imo. yes, frank is only 2 years removed from a great season (remember when baines was only ONE year removed from a .300 season?), but he was also 32 at the time. he'll be 35 next year, and before you tell me about bonds in his older age, let's look at ALL aging ballplayers and see what the odds are frank will improve rather than deteriorate. frank is no barry bonds!

he had the worst season of his career last year and i doubt it was all due to his injury from early in 2001. the fact he ended on an up note doesn't mean that much. he ended on an upnote in '00 and look at his start in '01 before his injury. he was terrible!
you also ignore the fact he's a complete headcase. this is not a stable guy. his life is pretty much a shambles and i'd not be surprised to see a nervous breakdown before next season even starts.
i'll wager he's even heavier next year too (aging and very big ... not a good athetic situation). he'll stay because of the guaranteed dollars but his incentive to really stay in shape and achieve no longer exists. why should he put himself out for a jerkoff owner and a team he no longer likes?
i predict he will decline very fast from this point on.

as far as NEEDING frank in a sox uni when he retires ... that's just sentimental garbage. nellie fox not finishing his career in chicago didn't diminish one iota his status as a sox great.

lastly, if frank had had the misfortune of being a cub instead of a sox ... you'd all treat him the same way mariotti does.

NewyorkSoxFan
10-18-2002, 12:29 PM
We all have to look at what Frank has brought to the table the last two years. I have enjoyed watching him play over the years, but the constant attitude with Manuel, and his insistance that he is still a great player is sickening.

Could Frank go to a place and have a great year, absolutely. But we might all want to take a look at the A's, everyone buried them because Giambi came here, and the team did better without the distraction of him leaving had on the team.

We need pitching and defense, not another DH. We have too many of those already.


NYSF

Dadawg_77
10-18-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
We all have to look at what Frank has brought to the table the last two years. I have enjoyed watching him play over the years, but the constant attitude with Manuel, and his insistance that he is still a great player is sickening.

Could Frank go to a place and have a great year, absolutely. But we might all want to take a look at the A's, everyone buried them because Giambi came here, and the team did better without the distraction of him leaving had on the team.

We need pitching and defense, not another DH. We have too many of those already.


NYSF

There are three reasons that anyone who buried the A's before the season started is a baseball idiot, Mulder, Hudson and Zito. When you have those guys pitching every five days, you can not be counted out of anything. The Sox don't have a Mulder, Zito or a Hudson. Mark is close but I would rather have those three over Mark any day, then again there are about five pitcher in baseball who I might take over those guys.

hold2dibber
10-18-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
We all have to look at what Frank has brought to the table the last two years. I have enjoyed watching him play over the years, but the constant attitude with Manuel, and his insistance that he is still a great player is sickening.

Could Frank go to a place and have a great year, absolutely. But we might all want to take a look at the A's, everyone buried them because Giambi came here, and the team did better without the distraction of him leaving had on the team.

We need pitching and defense, not another DH. We have too many of those already.


NYSF

I agree that we need pitching and defense, but do you really think Frank's departure would lead to the Sox upgrading the pitching or defense. And if Frank leaves, who would you have take his place? Seems to me that Liefer and Borchard are the only real options, and if you think either of those guys will have a .356 OBP, hit 28 HRs and 92 RBIs next year, you're nuts.

And what do you mean that "Frank's insistance that he is still a great player is sickening?" When did he insist that he is still a great player? He has admittedly repeatedly that he had a down year (although he has also noted that his "down year" would be considered a great year for most players -- and he's absolutely right).

hold2dibber
10-18-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i doubt frank is going anywhere ... and i hope he has a great season next year ........... HOWEVER ......

most of you are speaking from your hearts and your expectations are pretty unrealistic imo. yes, frank is only 2 years removed from a great season (remember when baines was only ONE year removed from a .300 season?), but he was also 32 at the time. he'll be 35 next year, and before you tell me about bonds in his older age, let's look at ALL aging ballplayers and see what the odds are frank will improve rather than deteriorate. frank is no barry bonds!

he had the worst season of his career last year and i doubt it was all due to his injury from early in 2001. the fact he ended on an up note doesn't mean that much. he ended on an upnote in '00 and look at his start in '01 before his injury. he was terrible!
you also ignore the fact he's a complete headcase. this is not a stable guy. his life is pretty much a shambles and i'd not be surprised to see a nervous breakdown before next season even starts.
i'll wager he's even heavier next year too (aging and very big ... not a good athetic situation). he'll stay because of the guaranteed dollars but his incentive to really stay in shape and achieve no longer exists. why should he put himself out for a jerkoff owner and a team he no longer likes?
i predict he will decline very fast from this point on.

as far as NEEDING frank in a sox uni when he retires ... that's just sentimental garbage. nellie fox not finishing his career in chicago didn't diminish one iota his status as a sox great.

lastly, if frank had had the misfortune of being a cub instead of a sox ... you'd all treat him the same way mariotti does.

It's hard to predict what Frank will do next year; there is evidence to suggest he'll have a good year, there is other evidence to suggest he'll have a bad year. On the other hand, there is a lot more evidence to suggest that Frank will have a good year than there is to suggest that Jeff Liefer or Joe Borchard (his likely replacements) will have a good year.

As to your point about how Sox fans would feel about Frank if he were a Cub; that's a ridiculous argument. Obviously, being a sports fan is entirely subjective and not at all rational. I hate Barry Bonds. If he was on the Sox I'd love him. I hate Mark Grace, but if he had played his whole career with the Sox, I'm sure I'd think he was the greatest. If Ventura had played for the Cubs, I'd probably view him like I now view Grace (i.e., I hate him). Put any Sox player in a Cub uniform and you can make your same argument you made about Frank. Sports fans are biased -- that is part of what it means to be a "fan" of a particular team. Your point is not a valid one.

hold2dibber
10-18-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
There are three reasons that anyone who buried the A's before the season started is a baseball idiot, Mulder, Hudson and Zito. When you have those guys pitching every five days, you can not be counted out of anything. The Sox don't have a Mulder, Zito or a Hudson. Mark is close but I would rather have those three over Mark any day, then again there are about five pitcher in baseball who I might take over those guys.

I'd take Buehrle over Hudson in a heart beat. Buehrle/Mulder is a toss up. I'd probably take Zito over Buehrle, but I'm not certain.

Dadawg_77
10-18-2002, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


I'd take Buehrle over Hudson in a heart beat. Buehrle/Mulder is a toss up. I'd probably take Zito over Buehrle, but I'm not certain.

Really, I think Hudson stuff is a lot more nastier that Buehrle's.

idseer
10-18-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
It's hard to predict what Frank will do next year; there is evidence to suggest he'll have a good year, there is other evidence to suggest he'll have a bad year. On the other hand, there is a lot more evidence to suggest that Frank will have a good year than there is to suggest that Jeff Liefer or Joe Borchard (his likely replacements) will have a good year.

As to your point about how Sox fans would feel about Frank if he were a Cub; that's a ridiculous argument. Obviously, being a sports fan is entirely subjective and not at all rational. I hate Barry Bonds. If he was on the Sox I'd love him. I hate Mark Grace, but if he had played his whole career with the Sox, I'm sure I'd think he was the greatest. If Ventura had played for the Cubs, I'd probably view him like I now view Grace (i.e., I hate him). Put any Sox player in a Cub uniform and you can make your same argument you made about Frank. Sports fans are biased -- that is part of what it means to be a "fan" of a particular team. Your point is not a valid one.

my point was that frank is no different than any other ballplayer and deserves no special handling because of his past accomplishments with the sox. many do agree with this statement but many do not. the remark was aimed at the latter. the point was also that fans are hypocritical by nature, and you seemed to agree. so how was this NOT a valid point?

as to franks possible replacements? i don't think anyone is crazy to assume someone else can fill his shoes. liefer may very well duplicate frank's production. borchard also. or perhaps someone not yet acquired will. you don't know. all you have is opinions ... the same as everyone else!

PaleHoseGeorge
10-18-2002, 06:14 PM
The simple fact is star players ARE treated differently, and the reason should be obvious. Baseball teams are run for a profit. Letting go the best player in franchise history (especially to save money while simultaneously rasing ticket prices!) is not good business. Well, duh...

Anybody who thinks Jeff Liefer is the answer to any of our problems--least of all replacing Frank Thomas--needs to stop smoking crack. Borchard has a chance to be a great player. Risking his future by rushing him to the Show for no better reason than to fill Frank's shoes is beyond stupid.

My 2 cents...

RKMeibalane
10-18-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The simple fact is star players ARE treated differently, and the reason should be obvious. Baseball teams are run for a profit. Letting go the best player in franchise history (especially to save money while simultaneously rasing ticket prices!) is not good business. Well, duh...

Anybody who thinks Jeff Liefer is the answer to any of our problems--least of all replacing Frank Thomas--needs to stop smoking crack. Borchard has a chance to be a great player. Risking his future by rushing him to the Show for no better reason than to fill Frank's shoes is beyond stupid.

My 2 cents...

I'm with PHG on this one. Frank is the reason I started following the White Sox. If he leaves, I will be extremely unhappy. He is without question the greatest hitter this franchise has ever seen, and it would be a mistake to allow him to finish his career in another uniform.

I think Frank's struggles over the past few years have blinded people as to what he is really capable of. Most people know only what they see; therefore, Frank has repeatedly been criticized because his numbers aren't what they should be. The Chicago media wasted little time ripping him during the All Star break. Not one person came to his defense. No one was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because he'd missed most of 2001 with a serious injury.

Assuming Thomas returns to form, there will a large number of people "wiping the egg off their faces." It has not escaped my attention that several people on this board have called for Thomas' head on a silver platter over the past few months. Those same people were silenced when Frank started showing signs of his old self in September. Now that the DSC has been invoked, those same individuals have shown up again.

Some of them want Frank gone because they believe the extra money can be used to bring in another quality pitcher. Yes, that money could be used to accquire another starter, but that doesn't mean it will be. This is Reinsdorf and Williams we're talking about. JR won't spend money because he's trying to stick it to the fans, and KW is nothing more than an incompetent tool.

Others want to see the Big Hurt leave town because they think he's an overrated, obsolete baseball player. The question I have is, who is going to replace Thomas as the DH? Carlos Lee? Perhaps, but Frank's numbers (with the exception of batting average) were better than his in 2002. Jeff Liefer? Please. Joe Borchard? I don't think it's worth ruining Borchard's future just because the Sox needed to fill a void.

I suppose it's possible that the Sox could accquire another bat, but no one is interested in playing for Jerry Reinsdorf.

idseer
10-18-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The simple fact is star players ARE treated differently, and the reason should be obvious. Baseball teams are run for a profit. Letting go the best player in franchise history (especially to save money while simultaneously rasing ticket prices!) is not good business. Well, duh...

Anybody who thinks Jeff Liefer is the answer to any of our problems--least of all replacing Frank Thomas--needs to stop smoking crack. Borchard has a chance to be a great player. Risking his future by rushing him to the Show for no better reason than to fill Frank's shoes is beyond stupid.

My 2 cents...

i will certainly agree with you about jr's reasoning and business practices and in general he's a total butthead, but, letting go one of the best players in franchise history happens .... often! frank is not irreplacable!
i don't know if liefer could produce whatever frank would produce next year (and THAT is where the comparison is ... not in franks past) or not. but to dismiss the idea out of hand seems silly. stuff like that happens. besides, i gave several scenarios as possibilities. lief MAY get a shot (again only if frank isn't back which he probably will be).
also there's nothing stupid about borchard sticking, tho i'd think he'll be playing fulltime in the minors for a while. i thought it was too early to bring rauch up too, but he looks like he could stick. why NOT borchard? you know, it's not like you can see the future any better than anyone else. sometimes rookies who most think aren't ready ..... ARE ready! and with this team ANYTHING can happen!

but then, what do i know? i'm on crack and beyond stupid ..... apparently.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-18-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by idseer
....but then, what do i know? i'm on crack and beyond stupid ..... apparently.

That was just my 2 cents. Strictly an opinion, nothing more.

:)

StepsInSC
10-18-2002, 10:07 PM
obviously there's no 100% way of surely knowing what caused frank's troubles in 2002, personally I believe it was his injury and I dont understand how anyone can deny the possibility of it. Its a freaking tricep, the single most important muscle involved in swinging a baseball bat. he couldnt even brush his teeth with that arm for a while, so he went a long time w/o being able to swing a baseball bat.

and dont feed me that doodoo about him saying before the season he was ready so he had no excuse...didnt he say the same thing after some surgery on his foot in the late 90s? but the doctors came out and said that he actually shouldnt be playing on it but he played on it anyways.


and you cant just disregard the last 2 months of the season and say "his decent hitting was just a fluke", by that same token we could say the same thing about the first half of the year, that it was just a fluke.

in his last 327 games of baseball (about 2 seasons worth) he has hit .288 with 75HRs, 245RBIs, and 200 Runs. Are those really such poor numbers that he should be booted right now no questions asked.

chemistry schmemistry look at bonds and kent.

DVG
10-19-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by idseer
.

lastly, if frank had had the misfortune of being a cub instead of a sox ... you'd all treat him the same way mariotti does.

And if Frank were a Cub, Mariotti would be treating him with the same worshipful reverence that he treats his Sammy. And if Sammy were with the Sox, HE would be the Anti-Christ, evil
personified, a man unworthy of the skills he has and someone
who should be run out of town or lynched, depending on Jay's
mood before deadline.

idseer
10-19-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by DVG
And if Frank were a Cub, Mariotti would be treating him with the same worshipful reverence that he treats his Sammy. And if Sammy were with the Sox, HE would be the Anti-Christ, evil
personified, a man unworthy of the skills he has and someone
who should be run out of town or lynched, depending on Jay's
mood before deadline.

no doubt!
i've only ever read mariotti bits and pieces posted here at wsi and it's obvious he's a dolt. but i think he's probably the exception rather than the rule. i wonder if writers in san francisco, new york, and la have writers that not only root for one club over the other, but unfairly rip individual players like mariotti does? what other paper would let a writer alienate half their readers like that?
then again maybe they feel controversy is a good thing. after all, it seems a lot of you read his column faithfully just to see how bad he is. maybe they know what they're doing after all!

idseer
10-19-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC


in his last 327 games of baseball (about 2 seasons worth) he has hit .288 with 75HRs, 245RBIs, and 200 Runs. Are those really such poor numbers that he should be booted right now no questions asked.


just for arguments sake ... harold baines' last 355 games prior to being acquired from baltimore he had 141 runs, 49 hr's, 205 rbi's, and hit .297! not poor numbers. how'd he do after that?
i imagine there are a lot of great players who accumulated decent stats their last 300 games or so, then dropped out of sight. they got old! or they got injury prone! or both!

in any event, nobody is booting frank. IF he does go somewhere else (his choice) then the sox do get something in return ... a bunch of money (and maybe a draft choice? anyone know?).

RKMeibalane
10-19-2002, 02:17 PM
I think the Sox will be better off if Thomas stays. I'm not comfortable with the idea of Ken Williams trying to accquire another player to fill his roster spot, nor am I excited about the idea of Williams deciding who to select in the MLB Draft.

At least with Thomas around, we know, for the most part, what we are getting from him. That is not the case with any players that Williams might bring in. Case and point: Todd Ritchie. He was accquired last winter in order to shore up the pitching staff, and we saw how that turned out.

bc2k
10-21-2002, 11:15 AM
Reading these pages, I've noticed some people looking only at the short-term effects of keeping Thomas. He probably would have a better 2003 than Liefer or Borchard. But is the gap between Liefer and Thomas bigger than the gap between Ritchie (as of now our likely #2 starter) and Maddux, possibly our #2 starter? This is why JR's money is better spent on Maddux or Glavine. The Sox have more of a need for a #2 pitcher than losing some DH numbers in 2003.

Will Thomas be a more productive player than Borchard in 2004? 2005? 2006? Because Frank is also under contract for those years. So while he might dominate Liefer in '03, what about the risk of having a 10 million dollar automatic out?

voodoochile
10-21-2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Reading these pages, I've noticed some people looking only at the short-term effects of keeping Thomas. He probably would have a better 2003 than Liefer or Borchard. But is the gap between Liefer and Thomas bigger than the gap between Ritchie (as of now our likely #2 starter) and Maddux, possibly our #2 starter? This is why JR's money is better spent on Maddux or Glavine. The Sox have more of a need for a #2 pitcher than losing some DH numbers in 2003.

Will Thomas be a more productive player than Borchard in 2004? 2005? 2006? Because Frank is also under contract for those years. So while he might dominate Liefer in '03, what about the risk of having a 10 million dollar automatic out?

I think the risk of Frank becoming an "automatic out" is pretty minimal, and I don't think you see it as a real possiblity, but I don't know. How possible do you think it is that Frank will become such a liability that he would no longer be worthy of a lineup slot?

hold2dibber
10-21-2002, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Reading these pages, I've noticed some people looking only at the short-term effects of keeping Thomas. He probably would have a better 2003 than Liefer or Borchard. But is the gap between Liefer and Thomas bigger than the gap between Ritchie (as of now our likely #2 starter) and Maddux, possibly our #2 starter? This is why JR's money is better spent on Maddux or Glavine. The Sox have more of a need for a #2 pitcher than losing some DH numbers in 2003.

Will Thomas be a more productive player than Borchard in 2004? 2005? 2006? Because Frank is also under contract for those years. So while he might dominate Liefer in '03, what about the risk of having a 10 million dollar automatic out?

A valid point, but a few things to keep in mind:

(1) Frank, according to media reports, will make about $5 million/year through the end of his contract, not $10 million per year, and that isn't a ton in baseball today.

(2) The Sox have already trimmed at least $16 million from last year's opening day payroll, they are increasing ticket prices, they are hosting the All-Star game next year, and they will receive some additional money via revenue sharing. In other words, they should be able to keep Frank and add a true top of the rotation starter.

bc2k
10-21-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I think the risk of Frank becoming an "automatic out" is pretty minimal, and I don't think you see it as a real possiblity, but I don't know. How possible do you think it is that Frank will become such a liability that he would no longer be worthy of a lineup slot?

The way Frank finished 2002 gives me reason to think he will have a productive 2003 (30 hr and 100 rbi). Beyond that, I don't what to expect. My concern is what if Frank becomes a Baines-like automatic out in 2005? Then he not only becomes unproductive, but costly, with 20 million left on his contract. At that point, he can't be moved (unless he's cut, which with that salary isn't likely).

What if an unproductive Thomas and his salary are what keeps the Sox from aquiring that last "piece of the puzzle" in the July 2005 division race.

At least with Liefer in the DH spot, he can give Konerko, Magglio, and Carlos days off while still keeping their bats in the lineup by trading positions. With thomas, the Sox lose that luxury.

But the main point of my post was a legitimate #2 starter would be more beneficial than a few more DH numbers.

bc2k
10-21-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
A valid point, but a few things to keep in mind:

(1) Frank, according to media reports, will make about $5 million/year through the end of his contract, not $10 million per year, and that isn't a ton in baseball today.

(2) The Sox have already trimmed at least $16 million from last year's opening day payroll, they are increasing ticket prices, they are hosting the All-Star game next year, and they will receive some additional money via revenue sharing. In other words, they should be able to keep Frank and add a true top of the rotation starter.

You make a good point about half his salary being deferred, and I was already considering that. But regardless of what he makes per year, since he's owed so much money it would be nearly impossible for him to be cut. If in 2005 he becomes an automatic out and the Sox want to cut him because a younger player would be more productive, the Sox still owe Frank 20 million. So a younger, better player has to sit because it would be too much of a financial hit to cut Thomas. If it took the Sox till August to cut Clayton who was owed less than a million, think of how reluctant the Sox will be to cut a player with 15 million still owed.

voodoochile
10-21-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
The way Frank finished 2002 gives me reason to think he will have a productive 2003 (30 hr and 100 rbi). Beyond that, I don't what to expect. My concern is what if Frank becomes a Baines-like automatic out in 2005? Then he not only becomes unproductive, but costly, with 20 million left on his contract. At that point, he can't be moved (unless he's cut, which with that salary isn't likely).

What if an unproductive Thomas and his salary are what keeps the Sox from aquiring that last "piece of the puzzle" in the July 2005 division race.

At least with Liefer in the DH spot, he can give Konerko, Magglio, and Carlos days off while still keeping their bats in the lineup by trading positions. With thomas, the Sox lose that luxury.

But the main point of my post was a legitimate #2 starter would be more beneficial than a few more DH numbers.

Don't kid yourself. Jerry might use salary as an excuse not to acquire another player to put the team over the top, but that's all it would be - an excuse. If he wants to spend the money, he would spend the money. He doesn't, and the rest is all window dressing...

Lip Man 1
10-21-2002, 01:16 PM
Hold 2 Dibber:

According to Phil Rogers in the Q&A that I did with him, the Sox WILL NOT be getting any revenue sharing money. Also according to him, because the minimum pay was raised for players to 300,000, the Sox will have to spend roughly one million more then they thought since they have so many inexperienced kids on the roster.

Lip

NewyorkSoxFan
10-21-2002, 01:46 PM
In response to Dibber/Dadawg,
First of all you are right in that the A's have the big 3, but I do think our 3 is going to show much greater improvement after having all year to go through their ups and downs. Whether they turn out to be the A's we will have to see, however tell me how many WS's have they won.

Frank Thomas is no longer a great player, and I am tired of hearing about his first 7 years in the league. Sure he started off great but at this point he is not Barry Bonds or even dare I say Sammy. He isn't a leader on the field or in the clubhouse, so as typical Chicago fans we wait for his return to glory instead of cutting our losses and getting someone who hits with 2 outs and runners on second and third.

I said all that to say Frank will be back anyway, this was just a smooth way of reducing his salary for the sox. Besides who else is going to give him 5 million dollars a year at this point in his career, and the adjustment being made to players salaries by the owners? He is about to find out how unfair the real world is, not the one he has been living in, in his own mind.

NYSF

hold2dibber
10-21-2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hold 2 Dibber:

According to Phil Rogers in the Q&A that I did with him, the Sox WILL NOT be getting any revenue sharing money. Also according to him, because the minimum pay was raised for players to 300,000, the Sox will have to spend roughly one million more then they thought since they have so many inexperienced kids on the roster.

Lip

I do recall that, but thought I had seen in reported elsewhere that they would be getting some money (albeit not too much -- in the $1-2 million range). Obviously, I don't know which is correct. And I also realize that despite the possibility of some increased revenues and the slashing of much payroll from last year, the Sox will have payroll increases in the form you mention, plus contractual raises for Foulke, CLee, Magglio and, IIRC, PK. Maybe Osuna, too. But my point remains that I don't think that Frank staying at $5 million/year or leaving will be the difference between the Sox going after a no. 2 starter. They could spend the money if they wanted to, either way.

voodoochile
10-21-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
In response to Dibber/Dadawg,
First of all you are right in that the A's have the big 3, but I do think our 3 is going to show much greater improvement after having all year to go through their ups and downs. Whether they turn out to be the A's we will have to see, however tell me how many WS's have they won.

Frank Thomas is no longer a great player, and I am tired of hearing about his first 7 years in the league. Sure he started off great but at this point he is not Barry Bonds or even dare I say Sammy. He isn't a leader on the field or in the clubhouse, so as typical Chicago fans we wait for his return to glory instead of cutting our losses and getting someone who hits with 2 outs and runners on second and third.

I said all that to say Frank will be back anyway, this was just a smooth way of reducing his salary for the sox. Besides who else is going to give him 5 million dollars a year at this point in his career, and the adjustment being made to players salaries by the owners? He is about to find out how unfair the real world is, not the one he has been living in, in his own mind.

NYSF

Will you please back up your assertion that Frank is no longer a great player with facts? Why do you say that? Do you think his arm injury had something to do with his off numbers this past year? Don't you think he deserves one more year to see if he can regain the form he showed as recently as 2000 and started to show again at the end of the 2002 season?

Just curious...

hold2dibber
10-21-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Frank Thomas is no longer a great player, and I am tired of hearing about his first 7 years in the league. Sure he started off great but at this point he is not Barry Bonds or even dare I say Sammy. He isn't a leader on the field or in the clubhouse, so as typical Chicago fans we wait for his return to glory instead of cutting our losses and getting someone who hits with 2 outs and runners on second and third.

Like Jeff Liefer? Seriously, who would you have replace him? You can go on and on about how Frank doesn't hit in the clutch, but you cannot deny that he still knocks in lots of runs, and every run counts (particularly with a pitching staff like the Sox). And if you want him gone, surely you can identify a replacement who will do better than Frank's .356 OBP, 28 HRs and 92 RBIs, right?

And he may not have been among the league elite last year, but you don't have to go back to his first 7 years in the league to find a year in which he was among the elite; you have to go back only to his last full season before this one, 2000, when he hit over 40 homers and had over 140 RBIs. Over his last two full seasons, he's averaged about 35 HRs and 118 RBIs. I'm sorry, but simply saying "he doesn't hit in the clutch" and "he's no leader" isn't going to convince me that the Sox would be better off without him, especially when you look at the numbers he has in fact put up and especially in light of the fact that they have no one in the pipeline who can replace him any time soon.

NewyorkSoxFan
10-21-2002, 02:04 PM
To be a great player is to be able to do more than just hit. If Frank could play first base at a competent level, and hit so as to not be so one dimensional, maybe we could say great. If Frank is not hitting on your team he quickly becomes a liability.

Sure his injury has something to do with his off year at the plate, but I am not referring to just his hitting. Does he deserve a chance to come back? I think so, but not at $10 million dollars, he is not that type of player anymore.

hold2dibber
10-21-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
You make a good point about half his salary being deferred, and I was already considering that. But regardless of what he makes per year, since he's owed so much money it would be nearly impossible for him to be cut. If in 2005 he becomes an automatic out and the Sox want to cut him because a younger player would be more productive, the Sox still owe Frank 20 million. So a younger, better player has to sit because it would be too much of a financial hit to cut Thomas. If it took the Sox till August to cut Clayton who was owed less than a million, think of how reluctant the Sox will be to cut a player with 15 million still owed.

There is absolutely some long term risk in keeping Frank around. But I think the division is up for grabs and that for at least the next two years, Frank is the best option we have. Plus, unless Aaron Rowand shocks me and turns into a legitimate everyday CF, the Sox will need Borchard, when he's ready, to play CF, with CLee in left and Maggs in right. That still leaves DH open for Frank. So I don't think it is likely that he will be keeping a more deserving player from the line-up any time soon. But your point is well taken; I just think the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks. (Alternatively, they might be able to strike a revised deal with him that includes incentives for the tail end of the contract -- for example, $5 mm per year in '03 and '04 with $5 mm deferred, but in '05, he gets a base of $2.5 mm with $7.5 mm deferred unless he has an OBP of at least .350 and at least 25 HRs in '04 or comes in the top 5 for silver slugger in '04, or something like that).

NewyorkSoxFan
10-21-2002, 02:15 PM
Like Jeff Liefer? Seriously, who would you have replace him? You can go on and on about how Frank doesn't hit in the clutch, but you cannot deny that he still knocks in lots of runs, and every run counts (particularly with a pitching staff like the Sox). And if you want him gone, surely you can identify a replacement who will do better than Frank's .356 OBP, 28 HRs and 92 RBIs, right

Dibber,
I think our next DH is Carlos Lee. He is a mediocre LF, and with his age, and salary his upside is greater at this point. He took many more walks this year, and I think he will hit at a higher level as he gains more experience.

voodoochile
10-21-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
To be a great player is to be able to do more than just hit. If Frank could play first base at a competent level, and hit so as to not be so one dimensional, maybe we could say great. If Frank is not hitting on your team he quickly becomes a liability.

Sure his injury has something to do with his off year at the plate, but I am not referring to just his hitting. Does he deserve a chance to come back? I think so, but not at $10 million dollars, he is not that type of player anymore.

Your serious? If Frank picked up a firstbaseman's mitt, you would consider him a better player and possibly eligible for the title of great? Why? Is Giambi a great player because he is an amzing defender? No, he is adequate at first base and barely that. First base has traditionally always been an offensive position. Would Frank be helping the team by playing 1B? Nope, he'd actually lower our defensive rating by taking Paulie off the field. Was Frank a great player during the 2000 season or did the fact that he was a DH make him only good?

IMO, Frank deserves one more year to see if he can regain the form he showed as recently as 2000. Not that my opinion matters one iota to JR and KW. They will do what they will do. By today's standards, if Frank can come back and hit .280, 35, 100 he will be worth every penny of the money he is owed. I personally expect him to crush those numbers next year, but again, my predictive abilities are absolutely terrible and won't matter in the grander scheme of things...

hold2dibber
10-21-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Like Jeff Liefer? Seriously, who would you have replace him? You can go on and on about how Frank doesn't hit in the clutch, but you cannot deny that he still knocks in lots of runs, and every run counts (particularly with a pitching staff like the Sox). And if you want him gone, surely you can identify a replacement who will do better than Frank's .356 OBP, 28 HRs and 92 RBIs, right

Dibber,
I think our next DH is Carlos Lee. He is a mediocre LF, and with his age, and salary his upside is greater at this point. He took many more walks this year, and I think he will hit at a higher level as he gains more experience.

I think Carlos could become a very good hitter; his improved plate discipline this year was extremely encouraging. However, if he becomes DH, who goes into left? If the answer is "Borchard" then you have much more faith than I do in Rowand's ability to man CF. I, for one, would rather have an '04 lineup that includes CLee (LF), Borchard (CF) and Big Hurt than one that includes CLee (DH), Borchard (LF) and Rowand (CF).

Dadawg_77
10-21-2002, 04:43 PM
If you take money out of the equation, how NL teams would love to have a hitter like Frank, arguably one of the best right handed hitters ever, playing first for them?

bc2k
10-21-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Your serious? If Frank picked up a firstbaseman's mitt, you would consider him a better player and possibly eligible for the title of great? Why? Is Giambi a great player because he is an amzing defender? No, he is adequate at first base and barely that. First base has traditionally always been an offensive position. Would Frank be helping the team by playing 1B? Nope, he'd actually lower our defensive rating by taking Paulie off the field. Was Frank a great player during the 2000 season or did the fact that he was a DH make him only good?

IMO, Frank deserves one more year to see if he can regain the form he showed as recently as 2000. Not that my opinion matters one iota to JR and KW. They will do what they will do. By today's standards, if Frank can come back and hit .280, 35, 100 he will be worth every penny of the money he is owed. I personally expect him to crush those numbers next year, but again, my predictive abilities are absolutely terrible and won't matter in the grander scheme of things...


Voodoo, I don't know all the details of the DSC, but do the Sox have the option of invoking it after the 2003 season? If they don't then they do not have the luxury of giving Thomas another season to see if he is "back". Management might have to protect itself and the team against the worst; Thomas not returning to form. Although maybe they have the option of invoking the DSC after the 2003 season.

bc2k
10-21-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think Carlos could become a very good hitter; his improved plate discipline this year was extremely encouraging. However, if he becomes DH, who goes into left? If the answer is "Borchard" then you have much more faith than I do in Rowand's ability to man CF. I, for one, would rather have an '04 lineup that includes CLee (LF), Borchard (CF) and Big Hurt than one that includes CLee (DH), Borchard (LF) and Rowand (CF).

What about an '04 outfield of Borchard (LF), Vernon Wells (CF), and Ordonez (RF) with Lee as DH?

voodoochile
10-21-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Voodoo, I don't know all the details of the DSC, but do the Sox have the option of invoking it after the 2003 season? If they don't then they do not have the luxury of giving Thomas another season to see if he is "back". Management might have to protect itself and the team against the worst; Thomas not returning to form. Although maybe they have the option of invoking the DSC after the 2003 season.

They can invoke it after any season he fails to finish top 10 in the MVP balloting or play in the AS game or win the SS award. There is no rush on this matter. At least that is my understanding of the situation. If he wins the MVP one more time, it removes the DSC from his contract, which is probably why it was such a huge issue in ST 2001 when he lost the MVP award because of Jason Giambi's firstbaseman mitt (as PHG put it so eloquently).

WLL1855
10-22-2002, 12:49 AM
I'm curious about one aspect of the "diminished skills clause". Once it is invoked, does it expire after a certain length of time? Here's the situation I'm interested in. Lets say that Frank comes back next year and puts up a big year. Big enough to where there would be significant interest in his skills if he were a free agent. Under any circumstances could Frank then declare himself a free agent and walk out the door? I'm not predicting that Frank puts up MVP type numbers next year, but does this type of loophole exist in his contract? Or does his contract revert to the status it was at before the diminished skills clause was invoked?

Just wondering. Thanks in advance to anyone who can explain this to me.

DVG
10-22-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They can invoke it after any season he fails to finish top 10 in the MVP balloting or play in the AS game or win the SS award. There is no rush on this matter. At least that is my understanding of the situation. If he wins the MVP one more time, it removes the DSC from his contract, which is probably why it was such a huge issue in ST 2001 when he lost the MVP award because of Jason Giambi's firstbaseman mitt (as PHG put it so eloquently).

:moron

I screamed that the Antichrist didn't deserve the MVP award in
2000 and the voters listened!!!! I'll take all the credit for that
one!!!!! You people are lucky to have a sports journalist like me
around!!!!

voodoochile
10-22-2002, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by WLL1855
I'm curious about one aspect of the "diminished skills clause". Once it is invoked, does it expire after a certain length of time? Here's the situation I'm interested in. Lets say that Frank comes back next year and puts up a big year. Big enough to where there would be significant interest in his skills if he were a free agent. Under any circumstances could Frank then declare himself a free agent and walk out the door? I'm not predicting that Frank puts up MVP type numbers next year, but does this type of loophole exist in his contract? Or does his contract revert to the status it was at before the diminished skills clause was invoked?

Just wondering. Thanks in advance to anyone who can explain this to me.

I've never heard any definitive answer on this question, but I am pretty sure that once the clause is invoked it is in effect for the length of the contract and Frank only has the one chance to find a new team - when it is invoked. If he doesn't leave, then he is bound by whatever deal they work after the clause is invoked for the remainder of the contract.

hold2dibber
10-22-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
What about an '04 outfield of Borchard (LF), Vernon Wells (CF), and Ordonez (RF) with Lee as DH?

I am a Vernon Wells fan and think he might bust out to become a top tier outfielder. In fact, in a post a week or two ago I suggested trying to trade Biddle and Almonte (or some such combination) for him. But I just don't see it happening.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-23-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
To be a great player is to be able to do more than just hit.....

I couldn't disagree more. The best players in the history of the game all specialized in one aspect. The greatest pitchers can't hit, and (with few exceptions like Willie Mays) the greatest hitters can't excel at anything besides hitting.

What a joke... Jason Giambi wins the MVP because he wears a firstbasemen's mitt. What a defensive lifesaver he must have been patrolling the "not-hot" corner for the A's.

LMAO!

TheBigHurt
10-27-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Adios, Frank.

If he's here, great. If he's not here, that's great to.

shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry: