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Lip Man 1
10-10-2002, 12:40 PM
Rick Morrissey today in the Tribune has an interesting column comparing the Angels "second class" status in L.A. to the White Sox / Cubs situation in Chicago.

Here is a passage from it...

"In the past, Reinsdorf has said he'll increase the Sox's payroll when more fans show up at the park. Disney increased its payroll by $13 million for this season, even though attendance had dropped in 2001. The Angels improved this year, and so did attendance. Funny how that works ."


Amen, brother!]

Lip

hold2dibber
10-10-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rick Morrissey today in the Tribune has an interesting column comparing the Angels "second class" status in L.A. to the White Sox / Cubs situation in Chicago.

Here is a passage from it...

"In the past, Reinsdorf has said he'll increase the Sox's payroll when more fans show up at the park. Disney increased its payroll by $13 million for this season, even though attendance had dropped in 2001. The Angels improved this year, and so did attendance. Funny how that works ."


Amen, brother!]

Lip

It seems so very simple and obvious. How could JR not know this to be true?

Iwritecode
10-10-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rick Morrissey today in the Tribune has an interesting column comparing the Angels "second class" status in L.A. to the White Sox / Cubs situation in Chicago.

Here is a passage from it...

"In the past, Reinsdorf has said he'll increase the Sox's payroll when more fans show up at the park. Disney increased its payroll by $13 million for this season, even though attendance had dropped in 2001. The Angels improved this year, and so did attendance. Funny how that works ."


Amen, brother!]

Lip

The last time the attendance went up was in 2000, when the Sox started winning. That had nothing to do with the payroll. Then JR increased the payroll that off-season (see Clayton, Royce and Wells, David) but the team actually got worse (see list of injuries). So of course attendance fell again. If JR and KW were actually smart enough to increase the payroll and make the team better at the same time, then they might have something. Of course if the team doesn't go from an average of 20-25K fans a game to 35-40K over the course of one year then JR thinks the fans aren't showing up. I'm not sure he realizes it takes more than one year to build the fan base up.

RKMeibalane
10-10-2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
The last time the attendance went up was in 2000, when the Sox started winning. That had nothing to do with the payroll. Then JR increased the payroll that off-season (see Clayton, Royce and Wells, David) but the team actually got worse (see list of injuries). So of course attendance fell again. If JR and KW were actually smart enough to increase the payroll and make the team better at the same time, then they might have something. Of course if the team doesn't go from an average of 20-25K fans a game to 35-40K over the course of one year then JR thinks the fans aren't showing up. I'm not sure he realizes it takes more than one year to build the fan base up.

There are several things about fans that Reinsdorf doesn't understand. His definition of a "loyal" fan is someone who eagerly supports whatever moves the team makes, regardless of whether these moves improve the team or not. If fans get upset with the team, JR thinks they are disloyal. This is not the case. Many of us on this board have ripped the Sox to shreds this season because of their mediocre play, bad managerial decisions, and poor handling of clubhouse problems. However, we still like the White Sox, and we hope things will improve. We don't blindy accept losing, because losing is not conducive to being a successful franchise.

voodoochile
10-10-2002, 02:27 PM
The idea is by no means a new one: better products get more customers.

That is true in every business you can think of. It is the most basic concept behind capitalism. You have to have a better product than your competition or at least make people think so (see the flubbies) if you want your business to thrive.

JR seems to think the fans owe him a yearly profit first and foremost (because the increase in capital he has seen, just doesn't count) and then if the profit goes up, he can afford to spend more money on the players. In reality it should work the other way around. The idea of spending more money to gain fanbase has already proven to be effective at Comiskey, because even though attendance dropped in 2001 (compared to 2000), the season ticket base jumped dramatically - most of which came because they had a strong team in 2000 and they appeared to have made it stronger in the off season. They would have easily outdrawn 2000 if they had only lived up to the promise. Unfortunately they faltered early (same as this year) and people didn't start filling the park in May and June so late season tickets were not a hot commodity early in the year and no one cared by the time the games actually got played.

Quality (or the perception of quality) will bring in the paying customer every time...

RKMeibalane
10-10-2002, 02:42 PM
Reinsdorf also needs to re-establish the trust between the Sox ownership and the fans, which he sabotaged when he engineered the 1994 strike and 1997 White Flag Trade. He fails to understand that the fan base will not increase dramatically for one season to the next because several people are uncertain as to whether they want to invest in the product the Sox put out on the field each season.

The Sox have had quality teams in the past, but none of those teams lived up to their original promise for various reasons, and the fans suffered as a result. The '94 work-stoppage is the best example. When it appeared as though the Sox were on the verge of reaching th World Series, the season ended, and Reinsdorf was partly responsible.

After the accquisition of Albert Belle, many expected the Sox to out-slug their opponents and reclaim the AL Central Division crown. But the team struggled early in the season, and Reinsdorf panicked. Then he authorized the trade that sent Wilson Alverez, Danny Darwin, and Roberto Hernandez to San Fransisco, saying there was "no way the Sox could catch Cleveland."

There are countless "casual fans" who refuse to support the Sox because they no longer trust Reinsdorf, and there is a part of me that does not blame them for their stance. JR has done little to earn the respct and trust of the fans. Instead, he blames us, saying that it is our responsibility to build a contender by attending games. The irony is that even if fans attended games, I don't think Reinsdorf would do anything to significantly improve the team. Attendance was high during the early nineties, and all the Sox had to show for that was the accquisition of Tim Belcher.

Iwritecode
10-10-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The irony is that even if fans attended games, I don't think Reinsdorf would do anything to significantly improve the team. Attendance was high during the early nineties, and all the Sox had to show for that was the accquisition of Tim Belcher.

Well just look at what we had to show for the increase in the 2000 attendance. David Wells, Royce Clayton and Sandy Alomar!


Gee, look where they are now... :(:

Dan H
10-10-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Reinsdorf also needs to re-establish the trust between the Sox ownership and the fans, which he sabotaged when he engineered the 1994 strike and 1997 White Flag Trade. He fails to understand that the fan base will not increase dramatically for one season to the next because several people are uncertain as to whether they want to invest in the product the Sox put out on the field each season.

The Sox have had quality teams in the past, but none of those teams lived up to their original promise for various reasons, and the fans suffered as a result. The '94 work-stoppage is the best example. When it appeared as though the Sox were on the verge of reaching th World Series, the season ended, and Reinsdorf was partly responsible.

After the accquisition of Albert Belle, many expected the Sox to out-slug their opponents and reclaim the AL Central Division crown. But the team struggled early in the season, and Reinsdorf panicked. Then he authorized the trade that sent Wilson Alverez, Danny Darwin, and Roberto Hernandez to San Fransisco, saying there was "no way the Sox could catch Cleveland."

There are countless "casual fans" who refuse to support the Sox because they no longer trust Reinsdorf, and there is a part of me that does not blame them for their stance. JR has done little to earn the respct and trust of the fans. Instead, he blames us, saying that it is our responsibility to build a contender by attending games. The irony is that even if fans attended games, I don't think Reinsdorf would do anything to significantly improve the team. Attendance was high during the early nineties, and all the Sox had to show for that was the accquisition of Tim Belcher.

My sentiments exactly. What Reinsdorf and the Sox don't understand is that a credibility gap is a tough thing to overcome. No matter how many times they say Reinsdorf wants to win, many don't believe he is that serious. And constantly lashing out at fans only makes the problem worse.

Loyalty is a two-way street. I want to see the team win, but I don't to just throw money at it. It is time for results not promises. It also would help if they had a new PR department.

guillen4life13
10-10-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
My sentiments exactly. What Reinsdorf and the Sox don't understand is that a credibility gap is a tough thing to overcome. No matter how many times they say Reinsdorf wants to win, many don't believe he is that serious. And constantly lashing out at fans only makes the problem worse.

Loyalty is a two-way street. I want to see the team win, but I don't to just throw money at it. It is time for results not promises. It also would help if they had a new PR department.

Rob Gallas meets Beavis:

:gallas :b&b

"Are you threatening me?!? I AM CORN-HOLIO! I NEED TEE-PEE! TEE-PEE FOR MY MIIIIGHTY BUNGHOLE! (grunt, grunt) why does everybody wanna see my schlong?"