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hold2dibber
10-07-2002, 09:35 AM
I've been away for a bit, so I apologize if this has been addressed in some thread on here already.

But Art Howe is an idiot. Let's see, the A's are facing a team that is under .500 against left handed pitching, the A's best pitcher all season is lefty, but oh, what the hell, let's make sure right handed Tim Hudson gets two starts and Barry Zito only gets one. Huh? With just a tiny bit of rotation tinkering down the stretch, he could have had Zito and Mulder pitching four of the five games, with Hudson pitching only one. There is no possible justification for having your best pitcher -- who happens to be lefty -- start only one game, particularly in a series against a team that has trouble with lefties.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-07-2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I've been away for a bit, so I apologize if this has been addressed in some thread on here already.

But Art Howe is an idiot. Let's see, the A's are facing a team that is under .500 against left handed pitching, the A's best pitcher all season is lefty, but oh, what the hell, let's make sure right handed Tim Hudson gets two starts and Barry Zito only gets one. Huh? With just a tiny bit of rotation tinkering down the stretch, he could have had Zito and Mulder pitching four of the five games, with Hudson pitching only one. There is no possible justification for having your best pitcher -- who happens to be lefty -- start only one game, particularly in a series against a team that has trouble with lefties.

No argument here. I'm guessing Howe was looking forward to the next series that the A's will never play.

:ray
"I was advising Art on strategy for the Twins series."

:ohno
"Ray, you idiot. You didn't even know it was your turn at bat in the ninth inning."

:jerry
"I admire Art Howe for setting up his rotation through the winter. It's off-season preparation that wins championships. I've been submitting new lineup cards all month."

Foulke You
10-07-2002, 01:57 PM
I was wondering that myself about not pitching Zito twice. How do you NOT pitch a 23 game winner in Game 1 and 5? I knew Howe was going to get burned with Hudson pitching twice. I think they'd have been better off starting Lidle in Game 4 then Hudson. The Twinks seem to hit Hudson well.

Mark my words though, Washburn will have his way with the Twins.

FarWestChicago
10-07-2002, 02:26 PM
Neither Art Howe Do You Set Up Your Rotation For The Playoffs? or Billy Crotch are very popular with the A's fans here at work today. They all want Howe fired. I can't blame them. That was one of the most catastrophically stupid coaching moves in recent memory. :D:

hold2dibber
10-07-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Neither Art Howe Do You Set Up Your Rotation For The Playoffs? or Billy Crotch are very popular with the A's fans here at work today. They all want Howe fired. I can't blame them. That was one of the most catastrophically stupid coaching moves in recent memory. :D:

Two questions:

(1) How has Howe defended his post-season rotation? What rationale has he given for only getting Zito (best lefty in the league this year) one start against the Twins (lousy against lefties)?

(2) What do fans around there think of Durham? Have the A's said anything about whether they'll try to re-sign him (I assume not, since I don't imagine Ray is up for a full-time DH role and Ellis isn't going anywhere)?

DrCrawdad
10-07-2002, 05:49 PM
In one respect I was rooting for Oakland, mainly because of the cocky Twits. On the other hand I'm glad Oakland lost after reading what Ray Durham had to say.

WSCR's Julie Swieca has said that Ray wasn't exactly a great person in the clubhouse.

Ray, Mr. All Star 2nd baseman - Oakland thought so highly of your skills at 2nd that they made you a DH.

Oh, and then pay attention to when you're supposed to bat. That gaffe was so Ray. I know it wasn't entirely Ray's fault but big surprise that he'd be involved in a Little League blunder.

One last point, I'm glad we have Olivo but did anyone here notice how well Bradford did in the playoffs? IIRC Bradford gave up one hit in 3 innings. IF Oakland kept Bradford in for the 9th, who knows the A's might have won.

hold2dibber
10-07-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
In one respect I was rooting for Oakland, mainly because of the cocky Twits. On the other hand I'm glad Oakland lost after reading what Ray Durham had to say.


What did Ray say that made you glad Oakland lost?

Paulwny
10-07-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad

Ray, Mr. All Star 2nd baseman - Oakland thought so highly of your skills at 2nd that they made you a DH.

Oh, and then pay attention to when you're supposed to bat. That gaffe was so Ray. I know it wasn't entirely Ray's fault but big surprise that he'd be involved in a Little League blunder.



He thinks that as a fa he should command $7-$8 mil per year. One great big rude awakening awaits Ray.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-07-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
He thinks that as a fa he should command $7-$8 mil per year. One great big rude awakening awaits Ray.

The last thing Ray Durham did in 2002 was let the #2 hitter bat ahead of him. If the A's dugout hadn't screamed for the other guy to come back to the on-deck circle, Durham would have ended the game, making the last out for batting out of order.

You can take the ballplayer away from the Sox, but you can't take the Sox away from the ballplayer. :D:

Everybody in baseball knows EXACTLY what Durham nearly did. It was a playoff game, the last the A's and Durham would play. Don't you think a few prospective hiring GM's were watching?

I'll be very curious to see what Durham gets this winter.

hold2dibber
10-08-2002, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The last thing Ray Durham did in 2002 was let the #2 hitter bat ahead of him. If the A's dugout hadn't screamed for the other guy to come back to the on-deck circle, Durham would have ended the game, making the last out for batting out of order.

You can take the ballplayer away from the Sox, but you can't take the Sox away from the ballplayer. :D:

Everybody in baseball knows EXACTLY what Durham nearly did. It was a playoff game, the last the A's and Durham would play. Don't you think a few prospective hiring GM's were watching?

I'll be very curious to see what Durham gets this winter.

That's certainly true, but prospective GMs also saw Durham otherwise play quite well in the playoffs. He hit homers, stole bases and scored runs. He really was a catalyst for the A's offense and I think his stock probably rose based on his playoff performance.

Of course, I still don't know what that will mean in terms of his market value (in fact, it will be extremely interesting to see what anyone's market value is this offseason, in light of the economy, new CBA and declining attendance/interest in baseball). But I wouldn't be surprised to see Danny Evans and his offense-poor Dodgers, who do not have a decent 2B, go after him.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-08-2002, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
That's certainly true, but prospective GMs also saw Durham otherwise play quite well in the playoffs. He hit homers, stole bases and scored runs. He really was a catalyst for the A's offense and I think his stock probably rose based on his playoff performance....

That's the Durham I'll always remember. Highly talented, in spite of some obvious flaws in his play at second base. But more than anything else, dumb as a box of rocks. His head is good for little more than a hat rack.

If he can't play second base for a contender (like Oakland, for example) what is his real value? He would make a pretty lousy DH compared to others who are available. As for playing other positions, he already vetoed moving to center field. That's probably a blessing since there is no evidence Durham could place himself well defensively, let alone control the movement of two other fielders, too.

Somebody will take the bait.

Dadawg_77
10-08-2002, 10:51 AM
Ray was the DH for the A's since they have Ellis,a good young cheap player, and Ray was a rent a player. The A's didn't want to move 2Bman and thus hurt the development of Ellis. The A's didn't bring in Ray for help at 2b but for help at the top of the lineup. Ray will be gone for the 2003 campaign and Ellis will still be at 2b. So I don't think the fact Ray wasn't the A's 2Bman will hurt him on the market.

hold2dibber
10-08-2002, 12:21 PM
Ray is not a very good defensive 2B, we all know that. But he is one of the best offensive second basemen in the league. Some team that is in need of offense and, in particular, in need of a top of the order type of guy, will decide that despite his defensive shortcomings, he'll make the team better. I think Ray made the Sox better during his tenure here and that, considering the whole package, he is a better than average second baseman.

That said, during Sunday's game, during his final at-bat that ended the game, Ray had a 2-1 count against Guardado. Even though he's not much of a home run threat from the right side, Ray took a huge, "swing for the fences" cut on a fast ball down the middle. Classic Ray. Since he is much less effective right handed, and since the heart of the order was coming up, it seemed to me that Ray's focus there should have been to just keep the inning alive by getting a hit, not trying to be the hero with a dinger.